Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Are you sure?

Destroyer is what it does...
Battleship is what it does...
Cruiser is what it does...

I only use those names because I haven't come up with a better system yet... GritEcon uses "200kt General Hull", and such, but those are a bit bland.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

This is the classifications the U.S. Navy uses. Now if you look at that and compare it with what you guys have been saying everything listed on this page would be considered a role, a size, and a class. So what are you guys saying [precisely] is a size? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Edit type-o's

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Yes I am 100% sure; however, using a bland system is not a bad idea SJ. Does it matter what we call them here? In a mod they will be renamed by the mod's maker. Here aren't we just trying to get sizes laid out for inclusion? So why can't the model have a generic (or bland as you call it) name?

Edited: Ok SJ I get your comment above (or below depending on display mode). So I edited the "but" to a "however" to clarify what I was saying.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Well, the main issue is that whatever we do has to be backwards compatible with stock.

Otherwise I'd suggest a simple Warship1 through warship9, plus transport1 through 3 and similar stuff.

PS:
I meant, are you sure I'm agreeing with you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Well since there are three calls for the model name in VehicleSizes.txt I didn't consider backward compatibility to be an issue. If you do though please explain since we should address and resolve that issue before proceeding. May I make a suggestion to kick it off please?

Vehicle Portrait Primary = NEO++
Vehicle Portrait Alternate = NEO+
Vehicle Portrait Default = Stock Standard

That is a good enough resolution. So long as there is a manner in which any modder can come along and easily tell which hull is larger than which. So Warship1 would be the smallest and Warship9 the largest, for example that is. And continuing along with the same example:

Warship1 = NEO++ = NEO+ = *Frigate
Warship2 = NEO++ = *MP = *MP
Warship3 = NEO++ = NEO+ = *Destroyer
Warship4 = NEO++ = NEO+ = *Light Cruiser
Warship5 = NEO++ = NEO+ = *Cruiser
Warship6 = NEO++ = NEO+ = *Battleship
Warship7 = NEO++ = NEO+ = *Dreadnought
Warship8 = NEO++ = NEO+ = *MP
Warship9 = NEO++ = NEO+ = *Baseship
*XXXX = Current Stock Size
*MP = Modder Picks one above or below.

Now clearly this is a rough draft of sorts but I think it conveys the basic idea right? Which is each "step" should be a little higher standard than the one before.

I thought you were disagreeing with me? That Destroyer (et el) isn't a size. Edit 2: I changed my previous post to make it clearer.

Edited: My chart was vague about stock, just trying to make it less confusing.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

What I meant was, you can't name the file warship3, since that would not work in a stock game.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

I'm still confused; why not? Unless I understand something wrong or just misunderstand what you are calling the "file" won't the following happen when SE5 runs?

Name: Big Freaken Ship
Short Name, Description, blah, blah, blah
Vehicle Portrait Primary: [%EmpireName%]_Portrait_Warship3.bmp (Oops can't find it next line)
Vehicle Portrait Alternate: [%EmpireName%]_Portrait_Warship3.bmp (Oops can't find it next line)
Vehicle Portrait Default: [%EmpireName%]_Portrait_Destroyer.bmp (Ah there it is I found that bmp)

Primary = NEO++
Alternate = NEO+
Default = Stock

Why won't that work if all the modders and shipset makers know that the agreed upon standard is Warship3 for the third largest hull size which is also the Destroyer in Stock.

Now if you are saying because "Stock doesn't use that name so Stock games won't be able to use that shipset" I say no problem. Either (1) we can get Aaron to change Primary and leave the rest in Stock alone; which would cover both NEO++ and NEO+ makers. Or (2) we can stipulate "This is a NEO# set and requires the instillation of the modified Stock file located at www_blahblahblah_blah.". Or finally (3) we can do both and be doubly covered.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Just to avoid confusion I am suggesting we ask Aaron to include an altered Stock file one of us makes for him. The new Stock would look like this, still using the DD as our example.

Name: Destroyer
Short Name, Description, blah, blah, blah
Vehicle Portrait Primary: [%EmpireName%]_Portrait_Warship3.bmp
Vehicle Portrait Alternate: [%EmpireName%]_Portrait_Destroyer.bmp
Vehicle Portrait Default: [%EmpireName%]_Portrait_Destroyer.bmp

Now we have a NEO shipsets covered for Stock. Heck I'll make the file myself once we agree on what we want. I need a break from this AI anyway! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Half the point of the neo-standard is stock (and the Balance Mod) don't require modification. I mean, what if you've got half neo-standard ships and half stock?

Besides, what the image FILE is named really doesn't have that big of an impact on how the image is used..

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

I'm sorry PD no offense but I honestly don't understand any of what you are trying to say here?

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

All we need to do is clearly indicate the relative positioning new sizes should have compared to the stock sizes. Is this one the biggest warship? The smallest? Between cruiser and battlecruiser? For a mod, you can arbitrarily remap the model names to whatever hull class names you want. Don't have an escort, but want to use all the hulls? Ok, start your mod's destroyer using the "escort" hull, light cruiser using the "destroyer" hull, and work your way up from there. If someone uses a non-neostandard set, they get the two smallest hulls using the destroyer model, rather than the two largest hulls using dreadnought.

I don't think that we should suggest that shipset modelers completely rename the stock sizes. That will just sow confusion.

I don't think we should insert extra hull sizes in the middle of the progression anyways. Maybe one at the small end and one at the large end (not counting a worldship). That would increase the range of warship hulls from 7 to 9 (counting the baseship hull as a standard image, since it is called for by stock, though most stock sets don't include one).

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

So we are back to square one, what are the new suggested sizes. Sizes not classes or roles! I think Explorer and Escort are sizes but both have been tossed back as roles/classes. How about Corvette then on the low end and Juggernaut on the high end? That's two more for nine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Any neo-standard should not require modifying stock or changing the names of any of the stock files.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

An explorer can be a big ship with weapons and science equipment, like the Enterprise, or it can be a small ship designed to be cheap and fast. An Escort can be a small ship like a police cutter, or a medium ship, like an interceptor.

A simplified approach seems best in my opinion. Here is what I would suggest: (stock sizes are marked with *'s, new stuff is marked with +'s)

Units (troops covered seperately):
* Small
* Medium
* Large
+ Special (For mods, looks like a medium version with some extra bits - one for each unit type. Fighters could use this size as a shuttle, drones could use it as a probe, etc.)

Troops:
* Small Troop
* Medium Troop
* Large Troop
+ Infantry (this seems to be widely requested so might as well put it in)
+ Special Troop (special type with some unusual looks to it, for mods, maybe unneeded?)

Warships:

* frigate (also used for escorts, recon ships, cutters)
* destroyer (also heavy frigates, patrol ships)
* light cruiser (corvettes, destroyer-escorts)
* cruiser
* battleship (also lineships, flagships)
* dreadnought (man-o-wars, juggernaughts, megatonners)
* baseships (motherships, super-megatonners, nubians)
+ worldships (deathstars, city-ships, generation ships)
+ special light (An unusual-looking ship, about the size of a light cruiser, for mods)
+ special heavy (An unusual-looking ship, slightly smaller than a dreadnought, for mods)

Transports:
* small freighter
* medium freighter
* large freighter
+ special transport (special type with some unusual looks to it, for mods)

Carriers:
* light carrier
* medium carrier
* heavy carrier
+ special (special type with some unusual looks to it, for mods)

Bases:
* space station (orbital forts, orbital construction yards)
* starbase (defense stations, mining bases)
+ special (special type with some unusual looks to it, for mods)

By using special types for the majority of new sizes, it leaves alot of room open for the designer to make race-unique ships, and have those ships then adapt to whatever mod they are inserted into. It's important to remember that what we are designing here doesn't stop at the sizes of the ships, but is really much more connected to what they look like. For certain ships, there is no reason to really have them look any different, but for others there needs to be a visual difference, both in size AND shape.

It should also be noted that many of the units have universal defaults, so instead of designing 3 different troops, you could just make one and call it "troop" and it would use that for all 3. I mention this because anyone who is planning on doing the extra work involved in making a Neostandard++ shipset is most likely going to also be making these extra models which are still technically stock.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Shadowstar I never said they weren't also roles and classes I said for me they are sizes too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

You have done a fine job outlining what may be added for a NEO++. Now what are they going to be called; "Special.bmp"? Worldship and baseship don't count.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

I'd say stick with the stock naming scheme when possible. Treat special as a size/modifier. IE: special weapon platform.x, special drone.x, special light.x, special heavy.x, special base.x, etc.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Ok, to get this rolling again, what do we think of this as the neo-standard? This would add 6 unique hulls to the stock set.

Keep in mind that the stock game already has a lot of "neostandard" type models called for, but not in general use. They add about 15 extra possible models shipset authors can already add to their sets and see used in the stock game.

Warships

+ Corvette/Scout (sub-frigate sized ship, name up in the air)
+ Juggernaut (super-dreadnought, not the same as baseship)
+ Worldship (generally spheroid, for the death stars et all)

Baseship is already called for by stock, but not used. A note about this would be good.

Carriers

Light and Heavy already called for by stock, so I don't think we really need any more.

Civilian Ships

+ Resource Ship (not positive on this one's general utility, but many seem to like it)

Small/Large freighters already called for by stock.

Bases

+ Battle Station (base to go between space station and starbase, as in all previous SE versions)

Units

+ Infantry (non-mechanized troop unit)

Small/Medium/Large unit versions of all units are already called for as primary models/layouts, though generally not used in stock shipsets, so we don't need to include those as part of the neostandard. A note about them would suffice.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Space stations are underpowered in the SE series. The lack of need for movement should allow a much size greater advantage.

How about calling the basic station an 'Outpost'? After all, they start at 600 kt, which is merely the size of a cruiser. Add a few levels so it can reach 1500 kt. Then you can have a true 'space station' start at 2000 kt or so. And then bump starbases up to something more. At least 3500 kt. They should max-out at 5000-6000 kt or so.

For ship sizes, we don't need anything smaller. We need a class between dreadnought and baseship, though. Maybe borrow 'Titan' class from Moo? Or even Behemoth and Leviathan from Moo3. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Baseship should still be the largest, and still use the starbase model. And it should be limited to a movement rate of ONE in all circumstances. It's just too huge to move faster without miraculous 'Q' powers.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

IMO, we don't need more ship sizes. We need to make the ones we have, useful.

Same with weapons. What good is a space station full of random heroes when you can put a superman in every police car?

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

The juggernaut was meant to go between the dreadnought and the baseship; then you have the worldship for the crazily massive stuff.

We can't rename the space station hull, and making a sub-600 kt base would be silly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif You can call your hulls whatever you want in your own mod; we just need common names for models.

Much of your post is about a specific mod, not a generic set of hull models. Same with SJ's post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Nice list Fyron... I say go.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Escort and Monitor.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

I don't have se5 (haven't even played the demo), so maybe I'm not the best person to be commenting here, but that never stopped me opening my mouth before. I also haven't read much of this thread. Anyway, taking into account the resizing feature, I'd say the best list I've seen so far is Ed Kolis'

These (with the possible exception of the scout) are the hull shapes that can't be achieved by resizing existing models, and that will be used by modders. Scouts, worldships and infantry were certainly popular in se4 with both modders and shipset makers alike, so I think those are the ones that need to be made. And once you have a worldship/scout model, the modder can resize it to offer small/medium/large/huge worldships/scouts and so on.


Although I disagree with all the monster stuff he went on with after: I think that's probably too mod and race-specific to be included in every shipset.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

You could always steal a planet model to use as your default worldship like I did for SE4's P&N mod.

...that rock world with the big crater that looks like a death star...

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Given that SE5 allows variable tonnages for a class based on tech and that models can be scaled to correspond with this, it would seem better to have models and classes linked to roles rather than pure size.

Variations on tonnage would then be dealt with by added a prefix to the class (e.g. Small, Medium, Large, Super, Giant, Titan, Star, Galaxy). An exception could be made for warships where there is a need for a very wide range of sizes and there is a standard list of terms (from both naval terminology and previous SE games).

Military
-Warship (ship-to-ship combat)
--Frigate
--Destroyer
--Cruiser
--Battlecruiser
--Dreadnaught
--Behemoth
--Deathstar
-Defence (fleet defence via PD, shields or armour, repair/resupply)
--Escort
--Defender
--Baseship
-Carrier
-Fighter
--Interceptor (targets other fighters)
--Bomber (targets capital ships)
-Drone (automated targeting)
-Non-ship units
--Starbase
---Construction
---Combat
--Weapons Platform
--Troop
---Infantry (planet defense)
---Armour (planet offense)
Non-Military
-Explorer (high speed, extra supplies)
-Transport
-Coloniser
-(Resource) Extractor
-Terra/Astraformer (for Stellar Manipulation)
Special
-Space Monsters
-Racial Specific
-Technology Specific

Having much larger ship classes available would fit the ethos of a game allowing Ringworlds and Dyson Spheres and also allow for the more "significant" items of Stellar Manipulation to be made much larger, requiring bigger ships (a planet buster should need to be Death Star sized at least...).

The downside is that forcing roles on specific classes could limit player flexibility in fleet design - but for multiplayer games it gives a reasonable idea of opponents' fleet makeup (e.g. offensive/defensive).

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Again, the neo-standard is supposed to apply to many mods. Its a request for commonly used MODELS, not for mod ideas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

The point that the neostandard would do well to expand on the roles of a ship rather than just a lot of sizes is a good one still.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

lets bully aaron into giving us a size multiplyer in the vehicle sizes.txt, that way we can use say, the frigate model, give it a mutiplyer of .75 and call it an escort.

also with the carriers, since there's only one model, give the larger ones a multiplyer of 1.25 and 1.5
that way you can easly see that it's bigger in combat, without having to have a whole new model.

ditto with the troops sats, mines, drones fighters and anything else that shares models.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

There IS a size multiplier- but for some reason its in each empire file, so you need to define separate entries there. You can re-use the same model.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

That is exactly the wrong solution to the problem, though. It needs to be mod-controllable, not shipset-dependent.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Mods -can- control those files, actually. I've been doing it with mine. Its obviously not an ideal solution, since the mod maker needs to add each custom ship set in manually or the shipset maker has to add files for each mod.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

That was exactly the point... it is not a mod data file-dependent solution.

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Just a suggestion... may not be worth anything, but with all the size possiblities already in the game for ships (not discussing bases) maybe the standard should not be so much size but installable features? For example a higher allowance of engines, more armor slots, etc.


Rasorow

Re: Neo Standard for SE V?
 

Installable number of engines is purely a mod-based feature, not really something that has to do with models. Armor slots, maybe, but your mod can simply use a slot override file if you need to do something fancy and unusual.