Re: I hate horrors
 

IIRC from Dom2 Horrors fly, but they can fly during storms

Re: I hate horrors
 

I don't have a problem with horrors taking out a powerfull magic user, but gods (pretenters) should have some defence against them, other wise it's just game. Who would follow a god that get's killed every two years and comes back weaker each time!

Re: I hate horrors
 

If you're going to have pretenders appearing as physical units in the world, and you're going to have physically-average pretenders such as archmages in the game then you have to accept the possibility of regular death. You can get the same result if you capture the enemies home province and simply kill them as soon as they're called back, for example. I'm sure you can also regularly kill a pretender with spells or assassination.
There are a number of ways which a pretender can protect itself which have been mentioned here. Primarily by casting returning or by not getting horror marked in the first place. I've played around a half-dozen SP games and the only horror marks I've ever received have bee nfrom items. It is something that the player has a lot of control over.

Re: I hate horrors
 

If it's a strong mage that can kill a horror with a few casts of incinerate or frozen heart, 10 archers might be better. They'll not harm the horror but they wont move either.

Otherwise - oh well. The guy is dead, but at least he got to live in the palace while his friends died in war.

Re: I hate horrors
 

That's a thought. It even gives me something worthwhile to do with the odd scorpian man.

Re: I hate horrors
 

People have followed gods that get killed every year. And the whole path loss thing isn't something you advertise, unless you feel like guilt-tripping your followers. "Your SINS are why I can't cast Master Enslave anymore! Go, find me an S1 booster, and I might forgive you your wicked trespasses."

Re: I hate horrors
 

Have horrors changed this much from Dominions II? I just got my copy
and have not even installed it yet, but in Dominions II, horrors were
only a minor annoyance for a tough pretender in the late game.

I also remember having to protect an empowered Arch Theurg, whom I was
using for forging. I gave him the ring that let him have ten oversized
bodyguards, and a bunch of blood slaves. This gave him at least two
spell casts, and he was a high earth mage... :-)

Quickness, the horror gets close and eats three slaves, and then the four
petrifies always do the trick. Hell, usually the first one did.

Now that I think about it, I remember that on the supercombat tournament
someone fielded an empowered horror, to pathetic results. Should be
in the archive. Ah, memories...

Re: I hate horrors
 

Yes, they have changed. The doom horrors are all uniques now and each one of them generally eats most armies for lunch.

The doom horrors of Dom2 are pitiful mewling kittens compared to the Dom3 ones. Your arch theurg and his bodyguards would last into the second round against the Hunter of Heroes. Maybe.

Grab the unit DB for Dom3 (link in my sig), look through the unit display list for the following monsters and do a comparison:
Eater of Dreams
Maker of Ruins
Hunter of Heroes
Eater of Gods (3 versions, the 2 physically weak ones are truly terrifying)
Slave to Unreason

There could be a couple of others, but you can start with those. They're pure murder, each and every one.

Edi

Re: I hate horrors
 

As Edi wrote, Horrors have gotten a lot tougher now. Also, Horrors will horror-mark their victims. And each successive level of horror mark means that you'll get bigger and nastier Horrors who attack you more and more frequently....

It's a vicious cycle.

Re: I hate horrors
 

Or a happy cycle, if you're on the right side of Astral Corruption.

Re: I hate horrors
 

Does the Maker of Ruins ever storm a castle? I seem to recall him having a massive siege bonus (to the tune of... 500, memory tells me) -- but I'm not sure what it'd actually mean unless he storms.

Re: I hate horrors
 

Should Horror Mark end the game?

If your god gets a horror mark he/she is doomed! They will die again and again while getting weaker and weaker!

I don't mind losing high power magic users, but a pretenter god (main character in the game) should have some defence, otherwize it's game over!

Re: I hate horrors
 

Like that ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/3444/gurgicv5.jpg

Just got it now. I was searching the word Kurgi because he seems buggy - unpossible to move him in spite oh his 10 move. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: I hate horrors
 

Cant see why that wouldn't work even now. Need more magic resistance now though, what with some horrors having blood vengeance +7.

Re: I hate horrors
 

It has already has been said over and over: If you don't want to lose your units some time later on, then avoid getting them horror marked. You don't have to use those items that leave horror marks. Sure they are good, but that's why they leave horror marks - it's like a deal with the devil.

The only thing that seems to frustrate people alot here is that Horrors are exponentially more powerful than their units and have no trouble at all to kill them on turn one or two. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

He doesn't need to move, he has an attack rating of 0. He only needs to sit around since all his attacks are ranged and the blood vengeance alone should be enough to work for him.

Re: I hate horrors
 

I've heard somewhere that Kurgi won't move on the strategic map, and spreads madness in the province you have him in. Does he have insanity(100) perchance?

Re: I hate horrors
 

First - the game is not over if your pretender is not on this mortal plane (aka dead). Why do you keep saying that?

Yes, if you put your pretender in situations where he might be horror marked you are risking his life. Either live with the risk or don't.

I think most people here would agree that getting horror marked should be a very bad thing and don't have a problem with the fact that even pretenders can rarely stand against horrors.

Re: I hate horrors
 

[quote]
It has already has been said over and over: If you don't want to lose your units some time later on, then avoid getting them horror marked. /quote]

That's not the issue, you can't stop from being attacked, so you can't stop from being unlucky and getting a horror mark!

So why should horror marks end the game? Because it does if your pretenter get's horror marked, it's game over.

Re: I hate horrors
 

Yes, I was meaning he can't move on the strategic map. He had no madness, it turned to 10 when I equipped him with his gift.

Bur I think it's just for fun in SP, horrors are too unreliable to play with in MP imho.

Has someone already mind enslaved the Eater of Gods ? I always miserably failed.

Re: I hate horrors
 

Yeah, that's why horror marks are bad. Exactly.

Why do you always repeat this even if it isn't true? When your pretender dies then he is dead, nothing else, you don't actually lose the game at all - you can still win it. He even comes back by himself, but the horror marks on him will stay, so you better make sure that you didn't give him any of those in the first place.

Re: I hate horrors
 

The main source of horror marks is certain items. Don't give any of these items to your pretender. Problem solved!

Oh, wait ... you can also get horror-marked by a handful of spells (or a very rare magic item) in combat. Okay, so don't take your pretender into combat. Honestly, a pretender who stays in the lab -- researching/forging/casting -- will not get a horror mark unless you equip a Very Evil item.

However, you might want to take your pretender into combat. Fair enough. Demigods on the battlefield can be pretty cool. Actually, combat isn't very dangerous when it comes to horror marks. As stated earlier, horror marks in combat are only inflicted by a couple of rare spells and magical items. Frankly, taking your pretender into combat is much more likely to get a curse, an affliction, or just-plain-dead. To further minimize the chances of getting horror-marked, choose your opponents carefully.

...

Summary: Yes, getting horror-marked is No Fun. However, it's also very avoidable. Learn what causes horror marks, then avoid those things. Once you get the hang of it, your pretender will be safe from those nasty horrors!

Of course, other bad things can (and will) happen. The world of Dominions 3 is not Disneyland. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: I hate horrors
 

There's also at least one way of remotely inflicting horror marks on people -- Horror Seed -- although the odds of nailing a pretender with that are probably fairly low assuming a decent escort, and this can be made more difficult via dome spells.

Stumbling onto and getting unlucky with a Vale of Infinite Horror, or getting unlucky after killing somebody who's B9-blessed, might also be problematic.

But yes, if you're in battle, being smacked by a dozen Seithkonas casting Nether Darts or fending off F9W9 Helhirdings might be a more serious concern...

Re: I hate horrors
 

Stupid Lizard Shamans always Curse my pretender.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif

Re: I hate horrors
 

yeah i never send pretenders in against lizards, without a bunch of chaff to draw the curses.

I think adding the functionality of horror marks being removed from pretenders upon a successful call god wouldn't hurt the balance of the game at all and would ease the frustration of losing gods to doom horrors over and over.

Re: I hate horrors
 

Yep. I've played hundreds of hours (at least) of Dominions 3 and just recently experience what was I think my first horror attack due to a horror-mark. A Lesser Horror showed up to punish one of my necromancers for using wicked magic items. The necromancer raised over a dozen undead, who took care of the horror before it reached the necromancer.

Of course, there is the point that human players can use various horror magics to evil effect... but there are lots of other very evil uses of magic in Dominions, too. Nature of the beast.

If one really wants to play without worrying about horror marks, though, just mod the horrors into something that's just a nuisance (like a black hawk or something), as was done when the Hunter of Heroes bug was active.

PvK

Re: I hate horrors
 

I think most SC's with good items can beat Horror. If you are horror marked keep 5 elite body guards. I think staff of storms will prevent horror from flying up to you.

If that premise is correct(it stops most things from flying)
then your sc has time to buff with spells and your body guards may be able to slow it down a good bit, if not kill it.

Horrors fly regardless of weather.
 

SoS isn't all that helpful, except to do lightning damage (to which, if memory serves, they're generally not resistant). And if you're interested in doing elemental damage, Phoenix Rod might be a better pick as incinerate is 100-prec.

Re: Horrors fly regardless of weather.
 

Cheaper to make too and air gems have a wider variety of uses than fire to boot.

Re: Horrors fly regardless of weather.
 

staff of storms prevents flying units from flying. that keeps them from flying up to you in 1 turn.

Re: Horrors fly regardless of weather.
 

Horrors, storm demons, elemental air queens, and Caelum Storm Guard and Storm Generals can all fly in storms. I might have missed someone else that can fly during a storm.

Re: Horrors fly regardless of weather.
 

Yomi tengus supposedly fly in storms, but I never tested.

Re: Horrors fly regardless of weather.
 

well,

so much for that(sos) idea. i think ethereal crossbow would kill one, no?

Re: Horrors fly regardless of weather.
 

Tempest Warriors from EA Caelum (I think), all Tengus, air elementals and possibly a few more units as well. There were a surprising number of stormflyers among the units.

Re: Horrors fly regardless of weather.
 

If it gets past the MR of the horror.

Re: Horrors fly regardless of weather.
 

IIRC wearing the winged helmet also allows commanders to fly in a storm, assuming they have the 'fly' ability, that is.

Re: Horrors fly regardless of weather.
 

It didn't in Dom2. No idea if it does that now.

Re: Horrors fly regardless of weather.
 

My problem is rather i never see a doom horror, cause i do not use any horror mark giving items... i could see lesser horrors attacking weak mages with lightless laterns.

Wonder what special to do, to see a doom horror pretty quickly when starting a game? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Horrors fly regardless of weather.
 

mod wish to zero research and 1 pearl. wish for horrors.

Re: Horrors fly regardless of weather.
 

Mod a site that gives you
#homecom 651
#homecom 1150
#homecom 1151
#homecom 1271
#homecom 1407

and put it in your capital. Recruit. Peek. Run away screaming.


Or make Astral Corruption essentially free and easy.

Idle thought -- one could create a scenario with an AI nation that had Astral Corruption and Utterdark as national level-0 spells, modded to B1H9 and D1H9 respectively, with a B1D1H9 Doomsday Clock immobile commander that autogenerated B10D10. Tick, tock. Tick, tock... of course, if it cast AC before casting UD, there might be a problem.

Re: Horrors fly regardless of weather.
 

That's not quite all of them. Hunter of Heroes, Maker of Ruins, Eater of Dreams, Slave to Unreason, Eater of Gods (3 versions), and I think there might have been one more. But whether you look them all up or just a few, it should give you an idea (as well as boost your insanity rating by 50% http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)

Eater of Gods doesn't look like much until you look at the physically weaker versions and check the ability named True Ethereal...

All of these can be found in the Unit DB.

Easiest way to do is mod the start sites of EA Mictlan (sites 130-133, iirc) and use 5x #homecom <nbr> on each to put the doom horror numbers there and start a game with the mod enabled. It'll show you all of them in one recruitment screen.

Re: Horrors fly regardless of weather.
 

No use, you're talking to 'the man who would not mod' ;]

Re: Horrors fly regardless of weather.
 

For the curious, the full list of doom horrors is:

651 Eater of Dreams
1148 Eater of Gods
1149 Eater of Gods
1150 Eater of Gods
1151 Slave to Unreason
1271 Maker of Ruins
1407 Hunter of Heroes

Re: Horrors fly regardless of weather.
 

Well, if its worth to mod i mod. Since i never see any doom horrors in regular games i play with a friend, it seems a good idea to try a mod then.

Re: Horrors fly regardless of weather.
 

hunter of heroes is a panzy

Re: Horrors fly regardless of weather.
 

Yeah, I didn't include all three forms of Umor -- only five units can be recruitable per province. If memory serves, the uid I chose was one of the scarier ones. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: I hate horrors
 

I may be wrong, but I think horrors can't go underwater. If some mage that I care about gets marked I put him underwater and he doesn't get hounded by these critters. :D

Re: I hate horrors
 

Just tested it, and it is not true.

Horrors also fly underwater.

Re: I hate horrors
 

Gee,
And perhaps if no one else has a problem, perhaps *you* are a little 'duh'.

There are many things in here that do work:
1. High MR. think.. 28ish.
2. Kill the horror first.
3. Script returning. Have another mage cast an AoE spell that will damage you.
4. Put yourself in the middle of size 4 guards. Don't just give yourself guards.
you have to tactically place yourself in the middle of a square of them. It really does matter the size and placement of the guards.
5. Cast Phoenix pyre (or blink); be earth blessed; have amulet of resilience, boots of messenger. If your reinv (or regen) is high enough.. you'll outlast the combat.
6. Take an immortal god.
7. Stop using items that horrormark you.

Re: I hate horrors
 

Returning is an instant teleport to capital, no damage needed. Ritual of Returning should work great when combined with Mistform.


Good advice otherwise, although a year or so late. :p

Re: I hate horrors
 

Blinking away from assassins might just actually be a somewhat valuable use of that particular spell...
When Immortal Pretenders are killed-if I remember right?-you don't lose any of their Paths. Too bad there's no artifact that confers immortality, although the Elixer of Life is another decent idea.

Among the best choices for bodyguards against Horrors:
Watchers-big, immobile, hard to destroy, lightning attack. Great for immobile or seldom-moved Pretenders, less great for ones you're going to move a lot. The patrol bonus is an added plus, though. No resistance needed.
The aforementioned Spring Hawks-etherial, flying, area shock attack. You'll probably want shock resistance with these guys.
Longdead archers-Banefire bow-use a ring of warning and 10 of them, if you can, with these guys, since they're not the toughest dudes, at 5 hp each. No resistance needed.
Frost fiends-frost blast, cold effect. Much better than Devils, especially against major Horrors, but you'll need cold resistance.
Storm Demons-flying, 2 attacks, shock damage. Probably the best choice among blood-summons.
Fire Snake-fire flare plus venemous fangs makes these guys a good all-purpose bodyguard choice. Not the best, but certainly not the worst. Great in combination with storm and ice damage units. Resistance to fire is recommended.
Scorpion Man-enchanted bow, enchanted sword, multiple attacks. 10 of these, with a really powerful Pretender, just might be able to survive a Doom Horror-or not?

Amphiptere: Flying, plus venomous fangs, plus poison spray-Note: the only pure poisoner I'll bother to list, since poison spray puts it above other flying poison weapon units-for my reasoning on poison, see below. An amazing bodyguard choice if you're "just" facing Horrors, but I would still prefer to put 1 or 2 Amphiptere in combination with other bodyguard types, to protect against normal assassins. Poison resistance is probably a good idea, but it's good for anyone you're worried about being a target for assassins.

If you can't get any of these, investing in some fire or cold drakes as bodyguards for a badly horrormarked Pretender is an ok choice, since they don't project heat or cold auras-thus, you can recruit them alongside each other, and you don't necessarily have to wear resistance items, just to survive your bodyguards-plus they have elemental breath weapons. Relatively expensive, but 40 (or even 80) gems is probably less than your Pretender's life is worth.

They also work together well with the other bodyguard suggestions I've mentioned, since they won't put them at risk, either, and drakes are tough enough to be able to survive most friendly fire.

Note: I don't like using units that *just* do magical, or poisonous (or just those two) types of damage, because a lot of assassins are going to be poison resistant, and horrors are often *very* resistant to magical weapons. Multiple attacks are ok, but you need more than just that on a good bodyguard, since a dozen normal attacks per round might still not get through true etherialness.

Big guards are ok, if they don't move, but flying or shooting guards are better, since they can strike the would-be assassin anywhere on the battlefield.

The reason for this is that I've lost more commanders to being "faked out" by assassins, who get past my guards without killing them, than I've ever lost commanders to assassins/horrors, after they've killed the bodyguards.