Re: OT - Physics Question on Anti-Matter
 

Why would being infinite force there to be addition/subtraction of matter?

It would start out infinite in extent with a finite density and as it stretches, the density goes down.


The conductive tether cutting through the magnetic field of the earth is a handy battery.
But the energy is coming from your orbital speed, which you got using the main engines. Of course, that does make it conveniently easy to deorbit without needing onboard fuel. Excellent for old satellites to ditch themselves once their useful life is up.

Re: OT - Physics Question on Anti-Matter
 

If it is already infinite in extent, how can it be stretching or getting larger? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif Not trying to be a smartass, I just can't follow that line of thought.

Power is constantly being produced in our ionosphere by the collision of the solar wind with our magnetic field. I can see two major problems with tapping into it. First, and most obvious, is just how to do it efficiently. Second, how to keep it from being overloaded and destroyed by solar flares.

I can imagine a sat in orbit trailing a tether. As it orbits it is charging batteries. When the sat reaches a predetermined point in its orbit it beams the stored power to an Earth station as microwaves. Practicality and safety concerns aside, the main question has to be how much power could the thing produce? I have no clue. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OT - Physics Question on Anti-Matter
 

Energy is not being produced in the ionosphere. It just happens to be naturally converted into a convenient form up there. Much like Niagara falls is convenient for hydro plants and sunlight is convenient for plants.
Everything around here except nuclear power comes from the sun. Fission power comes from ancient supernovae.
And both those come from the hydrogen the universe had as far back as we can see.


Re: Stretching infinity
-----------------------
Say you've got a motel with an infinite number of rooms. On Tuesday it happens to be full up with an infinite number of guests, one per room. (This place is quite popular)

Five guys pull up to the front counter, and the owner says "no problem". He simply gets on the intercom and tells everybody to move five doors to the right. The people in room 1 move to room 6, and the people in room one million move to #1000006, and so on.
Now rooms 1 through 5 are empty, and the guys have a place to stay for the night.

Next, a very large frat shows up... they have an infinite number of members, each of which has a unique odd number on their shirt.
"No problem!" says the owner. He gets on the intercom again, and tells everybody to move to the room with double their current room number.
The person in room 1 moves to room 2, the person in room 2 moves to room 4, and the one in room one million moves to room two million. All the odd numbered rooms are now free and everybody still has their own room.
The frat boys then move into all the odd numbered rooms which match their jerseys.

Re: OT - Physics Question on Anti-Matter
 

Not quite true. Geothermal energy neither comes from the sun nor nuclear fission; it's generated by the decay of natural radioactive materials like potassium, thorium and uranium. Tidal forces also play a role.

Re: OT - Physics Question on Anti-Matter
 

That's still supernovae residue, with the same ultimate source.

There is a modest amount of heat available from the formation and gravitational compaction of failed-stars and large planets. But again, that was all there in the potential energy of the starting material.

Re: OT - Physics Question on Anti-Matter
 

That is true; I was just pointing out that it's neither directly from the sun, nor from nuclear fission. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Sorry, guess I've just been a little arguementative recently http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: OT - Physics Question on Anti-Matter
 

Ever heard of orders of infinity? The set of counting numbers is an infinite set, and the set of real numbers is an infinite set, but while you can have a function that uniquely assigns every member of the counting number set to the real number set, you can't do it the other way around. The hotel clerks orders can't be followed - all rooms are full.

Re: OT - Physics Question on Anti-Matter
 

The frat guys have odd numbers, implying integers. Same as door numbers. There is no problem.
Now, if the frat had used points on a line instead of jersey numbers, then there would be a problem, but they didn't. Fractions would have been fine too.

The whole point of that was to demonstrate stretching an infinite amount of something.
All those people who were neighbours before the move, now have one frat guy between them and are two doors away from their old neighbour. And everybody does fit.

Re: OT - Physics Question on Anti-Matter
 

If I may jump in...

It doesn't matter whether the frat boys need odd numbered rooms or not; there are an infinite number of them. There are an infinite number of rooms and as long as there is at least 1 person in the hotel, there would not be enough rooms. There is no such thing as infinity + 1. Infinity is infinity. Period. You cannot add to infinity.

At least that's the way it was when I took Calculus and Engineering courses anyways...

Re: OT - Physics Question on Anti-Matter
 

There is no such thing as infinity +1 because infinity is not a number.

The hotel thing works;
Given that the people follow the owner's instructions in regards to changing rooms, there will never be a room conflict, and everybody will indeed fit.

The person in room 1 moves to room 2. There is nobody in room 2 because that person moved to room 4. Person 2 was able to move into room 4 because *that* person moved into room 8.
The person in room 3 moves to room 6. Person 6 moved to room 12, and 12 to 24.

Everybody leaves their room. And each person is given a unique new room number to move into. One person per room, and nobody left without a room. Therefore everybody fits.

Infinity is funny that way http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
The set of positive, even integers (the original guests in their new rooms) is the same size as the set of all positive numbers (the original guests ... and also the original guests in new rooms plus the frat boys)

Re: OT - Physics Question on Anti-Matter
 

There's a whole class of infinities described as "countably infinite" that are all equivalent in size and (among other things) have the property that any two such infinities can be combined to make another infinity that is also countably infinite. The number of rooms in the hotel, the number of current occupants, and the number of frat boys are all countably infinite and can therefore be combined without changing anything. If a fraternity with one member for each irrational number showed up, however, the hotel would be in trouble because that particular set is not countably infinite. No matter what scheme you came up with for assigning people to rooms, you would always have an infinite number still waiting.

Note: A set is countably infinite if and only if it is possible to assign each and every member of the set to a corresponding member of another countably infinite set (the set of all integers is declared to have this property by fiat so you have a base to work with) so that each and every member of both sets has a corresponding member in the other. Put another way, if it's possible to come up with a scheme for labelling each and every item with a different whole number without skipping any numbers, then the set is countably infinite.

On a side note, the set of rational numbers is also countably infinite, but I'll leave figuring out a proof for it to everyone else. I know of one and will post it if enough people ask, but for now I'll leave it as a puzzle.

Re: OT - Physics Question on Anti-Matter
 

If there are an infitite number of rooms, it'll probably take you an infinite amount of time to get them to change rooms. Oh NOOOooo...! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OT - Physics Question on Anti-Matter
 

No no, everyone changes rooms simultaneously and they use special teleporters that can take such things as "double my room number" as the destination so you don't even have to worry about how long it's going to take the people with room numbers with a trillion digits to enter them.

Re: OT - Physics Question on Anti-Matter
 

Also, the fire code requires an instantaneous FTL intercom.

Re: OT - Physics Question on Anti-Matter
 

Er...No. All you've done is introduced an infinite 'ripple' as people move from room to room. You havn't made more room; you've simply...

...Look, this should explain it. Infinity is not a number. It can, however, be a ratio.

Suppose you have a thirty foot fence and an apple every six inches.

You therefore have 15 epples, thirty feet of fence and 1 apple per 6 inches of fence. 1/6.

Supposing then that an infinite being, for no particular reason, makes the fence inifinitly long and makes sure there's an apple every six inches.

You then have an infinite amount of apples, an infinite amount of fence and a ratio of 1/6 of apples and inches of fence.

Supposing, then, that the infinite being doubled the number of apples, again spacing them evenly. You then have 2/6 or 1/3 of apples and inches.

The ratio of rooms to people is 1/1.

Add in another infinity of people and the ratio of rooms to people is 1/2.

However, as there will *always be more rooms opening up, you've disguised that. However, that 'ripple' is going to go on to infinity - And there will always be one displaced person.

* Unless all this is done in no time at all.

Re: OT - Physics Question on Anti-Matter
 

Everybody moves at the same time. No ripple, just a quick and simultaneous changing of location.

And yes, practical physical limitations have to be ignored. That's why it is a thought experiment and not a fantastic way to make an infinite amount of profit in just one day. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The best part of course, would be that even though the taxman would take an infinite amount of money, you'd still have an infintite amount left (unless the tax rate happens to be 100%).

Re: OT - Physics Question on Anti-Matter
 

The thing you're ignoring is that, while there would always be a room opening up, the room the person is moving into is occupied. The best you could get is to always have someone in transit.

This, of course, may not hold true if action is taken by a being greater than infinite, which would be the only theoretical way to have everyone move at the same time.

Re: OT - Physics Question on Anti-Matter
 

I think Red Dwarf says it all. There was an episode where Dave (who had been in chyo for millions of years) got a message from earth about his bank account. Apparently he has 13 cents or something in there when he left, it now accounts for pretty much all of the money due to the interest. However, he left a lightbulb on in his apartment, so his bill accounts of all of that. I think that is how it went http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OT - Physics Question on Anti-Matter
 

That would be true if we were moving people one at a time, but we're not. The hotel's intercom brings the room change announcement to every room simultaneously, and each person moves himself, so all moves are accomplished all at once. When the manager tells everyone to move to the room with double their current room number, person 2 doesn't show up at room 4 and then have to wait for person 4 to leave, person 4 is already out. As is person 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, and so on down the line. Here's how it works at Hotel Infinity:

Step 1: Manager gets on the intercom and tells everyone to move to the room with double his current room number. The intercom relays this message to everyone simultaneously, so all infinity residents are notified in as little time as it takes to say the announcement once.
Step 2: All occupants pack up and move themselves and their belongings into the hall. Every room is now empty.
Step 3: Each occupant steps into the teleporter across the hall and gives "double my previous room number" as the destination. All even numbered rooms are now occupied, but the odd numbered rooms are still empty.

After these steps are completed, in the finite time required for a single person to change rooms, every previous resident has a new room, no one had to be tossed out, and everyone is finished moving into his or her new room. The Hotel contains exactly as many people as it did before, but now every odd numbered room is empty, giving enough room for the entire fraternity of infinite odd-numbered people to move in.

Re: OT - Physics Question on Anti-Matter
 

Well if you want infinite money, just become a bank and start charging compound interest...

Re: OT - Physics Question on Anti-Matter
 

Ok, double the room number is an infinitly decreasing fraction of the room ratio...

...Ending up equal to both infinity AND zero?

Dude, I think you just broke the universe.

Re: OT - Physics Question on Anti-Matter
 

Ratios need to compare two things. Room vs what? ratio.

There is always one person per room. They are all full, and all have exactly one person in each.
That is true both before and after the frat boys get there.