Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

Except that they tend to get ganged up, since they're perceived as unbalanced.

And given the perception of early game strength and late game weakness, I'm not certain, as I said above, that a nation that bumps off 2-3 neighbors and then is brought down when its strengths no longer apply is really balanced.

Finally, and somewhat tongue in cheek, that's not a statistically significant sample. Given the number of nations, even if Vanheim was twice as likely to win as any other nation, the observed distribution would not be unlikely.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

T'ien Ch'i in a EA game took out Helheim pretty much 1 on 1 and Helheim was played by a very, very good player but so was T'ien Ch'i...

I believe Atlantis in EA can eat Hellheim and Vanheim for breakfast, played correctly. Also EA Caelum can eat Hellheim/Vanheim for a midday snack played correctly. Also heavily blessed Mictlan nation can stand upto them (which how everyone usually plays Mictlan) and Nelfelheim, Abysia can also stomp Hellheim/Vanheim. So where's the balance problem?

Hellheim/Vanheim really are SOOOO overrated its untrue.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

Sorry but this states says who win the game but not how! It says nothing about alliances of several players to defeat one nation or equal things.

I never played vanheim/helheim in a mp game but i've some good tactics in mind with the glamour stealth troops. In my mp games i've defeated vanheim twice but the players used the vans as a simple (very strong) combat unit. They missed the point that this things are the best national stealth troops.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

Again, if it was always one then it would be a balance problem. But I see the same situation plagueing other nations. Advanced players tend to know what maps and victory conditions mean everyone-gang-up-on Ermor, Ulm, Rylieh, Arcos, Ctis, etc etc.

No matter what map size or victory condition or game settings, if its always the same then there will ALWAYS be someone that has an advantage and must be taken out first. Venheim seems to be it for small maps (not tiny ones) and about 4 players. A blitz game. In a game like that, if someone takes Vanheim then hit them first. Dont try to get it changed so that Vanheim is ruined in all the other games (and you simply end up with a new nation who is usually a problem)

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

I think part of it is that Vanheim's abilities make it easy to make use of them without having to play Vanheim well. The fact that it can be beaten by people playing the others well actually seems to be part of the complaint from what Ive seen. That is an imballance apparently. That it takes a good Tien Chi player to beat a bad Vanheim player.

But I agree. I have always felt that anyone playing the right nation for them will do well.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

It doesnt work like that. I cant set up a multiplayer game like 'you choose Pangaea and go guerilla to prevent Vanheim from eating too many provinces'.

Our map was large, and we had 10 players in the beginning -a big game. Now there are four less players, and nobody gangs Vanheim so I can perceive these 2x blessed raiders in their prime.
Btw, Pangaea in hit'n'run mode was rushed by the apes, Caelum was raided by said Vanheim while warring against Ulm, and is soon to be killed by Rlyeh, Abyssia was destroyed by Vanheim in the very beginning and is now supplying him with fire gems. So... I still fail to see how big games make Vanheim any more 'balanced' unless all players are experienced enough to gang him first.
As for the imbalance treads - no, SCs arent imbalanced because 1) they can be countered rather easily 2) all nations can have them. For example, 2-x bless Vanheim can counter MY sc's just be giving 2-3 commanders 2-3 easily craftable items and setting them to attack. I checked it in a test game - works like a charm. Defense 30, mirror image, AP weapon, water bless quickness. He cant hit them, they kill him in two rounds.

As for the statistics... It just proves some of the arguments mentioned here. Like, people tend to gang the strongest nations first. Pythium, Ermor, Vanheim are such nations. Ulm is perhaps the weakest, and ironically, thats why people often ignore them until they can drown everyone in their knights and infantry, backing them up by indie mages, golems and the like. Such thing will most likely happen in our current game btw - its turn 35, I am gonna be exhausted even if I defeat Vanheim so Ulm will get all the spoils of at. He will claim enough victory points to win, unless Rlyeh backstabs him with his amassed Ctulhus. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

P.S.
I'm absolutely fine with some imbalances in this game - if anything they make Dominions 3 more fun and add depth to the game world. But vans are just too much, everything got its limits.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

That all sounds good to me. Im still not convinced of something needing fixed. The devs might decide to tweak it abit but I dont see it as broken.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

Sorry, what sounds good? Uncounterable raiders? Recruitable commanders who kill SCs made on lvl6+ summon chassis? Units so powerful that national troops (and many spells) are useless against them? Not units of some magically weak nation like Ulm, but units of a nation with top-notch mages.
I fail to understand this logic.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

Thoughts on your SCs.

Sea Kings aren't particularly great SCs, but if they're what you've got to work with.

Try area affect attacks. Defense shields.
Definitely fire resistance. He'll still hit, but the 6ap won't work.
Eye shield. Fire shield. Vine shield to reduce his defense.
Any damage will break the mirror image.
Snake bladders, make your SC poison immune first. (I don't know if poison gets rid of the mirror image.)


Sea trolls have horrid Attack and Defense, so I'm not sure any of that will be enough, but try it out.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

Thejeff -
My sea kings have:
100% FR
100% CR
100% LR
Vine shield.
Chill aura.
(very nasty combo btw)
Fire brand sword.
Enough rejuvenation to make him not get tired with quickness on.
Attack of 16+ and defense of 20+, not sure about the numbers.
He kills any national troops or summons, but dies to vanheim recruitable commander )))

Btw, try this King setup, it works. Rainbow armor, vine shield, fire brand, dragon helmet, messengers boots, rest up to you. Breath of winter, quickness.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

Then what do the vanjarls do to them?
How are they equipped?

I'd be tempted to try 2 shields. Charcoal & Vine? You're not hitting them anyway.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

He is hitting very, very hard. Two skill 16 attacks is good enough, especially after cold aura and shield soften the enemy down.
They only need three lvl4 items, one of them is armor piercing weapon. And a dual bless, of course. Regular units go down as grain too...
Something's wrong here in my opinion.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

Whose domain is the fighting in?
What scales are there?

Your previous posts make it sound as though the nations which could have held up against Vanheim were taken out by other players before they could do any good. That tends to be the way the game plays. It could just as easily have been early defeat of Ermors best enemy, or early defeat of Ulms. Thats the joy of rock-paper-scissors balance. If you take out all of the scissors, you might later regret it.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

Domain doesnt matter, they kill troll either way in two rounds before morale kicks in. Most SCs wont hit them due to defense 30 and mirror images.

Vanheims neighbours were Abyssia (which he killed immediately), me as Tien Chi (busy fighting first Shinuyama, then Machaka), Caelum (who got ganked) and Ulm who didnt care about Vanheim.
No race should be THAT powerful against all nations but a few - because you cant count on these few races to be his neighbours, or not to be ganked by other players, or simply get rushed/raided to death by Vanheim himself.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

Then we have a problem with Ermor, and Ctis, and Arcos, and Jotunheim.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

I think that everyone misses an important point. Are eg. helhirdings unbalanced when UNBLESSED? No? Then perhaps the problem is with a combination of F9W9 and High-def glamour troops?

I can't say I've ever noticed losing more quickly to Helheim than anyone else, but I'm so awful that it hardly matters.

Perhaps the following test- One battle with eyes of the void or a mod removing glamour. One battle with no bless. One battle with current stats/abilities. At least we could then determine where the (possible) problem comes from.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

So you want to talk about "unbalanced" bless combinations instead, yes?

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

I am playing in my first MP game, and I got Vanheim.

I have never played Vanheim before. So I am reading this thread for advice, and I am also playing a SP game of the scenario and the mod we are using with all of the other players replaced by Impossible AI.

We are using the Dawn of Dominions map. The other players are:
Arcoscephale
Agartha
C'tis
Oceania
Ulm
Sauromatia
Kailasa
Ermor
Vanheim
Caelum
Marverni
Helheim

I am looking for advice on force composition and structure. Should I use lots of small units and spread them out to avoid area of effect damage spells? At four or less units per squad they get a morale penalty, right? So maybe squads of 6-8 bad guy Vanheims per?

Should they charge in right from the start? I think so. I have no missle troops to purchase of any sort. So unless I can recruit some bowmen, I am at a disadvantage at range.

I can't really go into detail about what my pretender looks like. I suppose I could because I don't expect to win this one, and I do want to learn as much as possible from this first MP game.

Does anyone have some viable Vanheim strategies that they could pass on? Thanks! They are greatly appreciated.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

you could play blind, left handed and with a parrot on the shoulder and you'll win. ... joking ...

I really, really don't understand the reason some say Van is not unbalanced. You can say "I've talked to the devs and they said will not make any changes" and that is good. But There is no need of simulations and mp statistics, it is enough to see unit statistics to see the unbalancing. And a nation that needs "very large maps" or specialized anti tactics anti or any deep customization, simply tell that thery are unbalanced.
And Pangea ... I've played Pangea allied with Abysia vs Van (whe were three middle experienced gamers), considering that minos and abysians are between the few ones that can do some harm to van ... no story at all. And the middle games strategies for vand are very easy too, pack your nationals with mechanical men and shot big lightings, and the world is your. There is no easy way to protect yourself from lighting if you're Pangea.
Sorry, I know i'm repeating myself, but I don't understand the position "its slightly umbalanced but does not need corrections". The truth is that is greatly unbalanced and needs some (slight!, I dont' want to ruin it) correction. And no, I'm not saying it's bugged, bugs are other things.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

Death nations and massed elephants, eh? At least you can kill them with priests, battle magic, massed archers and so on. You can fight them. LA Ermor also has a big 'gank me' sign overhead, its a target number 1 for anyone.
They lack an unkillable multipurpose unit, which is my main concern. Btw, F9W9 blessing isnt the only way - I have seen W9E9 blessing, and it seems like a great idea. Makes vans even harder to kill. What makes vans even more annoying is stupid mages always casting thunder strikes etc at the chaff units. As long as vanheim brings some militia with him or hires PD, mages will happily thunderstrike them, ignoring the real treat. Then your mages get 100 fatique, vans charge and kill your melee units, gg. Seen that many times.

And yes, its a combination of a double 9 blessing and glamour troops with great stats.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

Have you been fighting massed Shadow Vestals before, per chance? Ethereal sacred units with very high base defense. Glamor/Mirror Image goes away after a scratch, the Etherealness stays the whole battle. And don't tell me that you can hope to get rid of them by priests. The Ermorian Principes have an insane base defense, too. Ermor might not be as "unbalanced" as the Heims in the very early game, but undeads isn't everything that they have. In any case, you'll need to develop a counter-strategy to almost any nation and playing stlye, if you like it or not.

Earth/Nature is a good combo, too, try it with Niefelheim, E9N4 or E9N6 for example. You'll be amazed at the results.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

Lightning bolt kills a vestal. It doesnt kill van.
Try scratching a van with defense 26, my troops have yet to manage such feat.
I like developing an anti-strategy in each of my games, I dont like the fact I cannot develop an anti-strategy against vanheim raiders. The only thing may or may not work is an immediate rush for their capitol after I've massed enough mages/SCs/thugs and got sufficient research.
P.S. there are many good combos, but w9 is a must for Vanheim imho, it skyrockets their already insane defense.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

We're beating a dead horse IMHO.
The combo of 20 def+glamour+fast+sacred+low res cost for a paltry 75 gold is a magnet for a high level bless (F9W9+)leading to a very unbalanced nation.
I've yet to find a way of countering Vanheim or Helheim before turn 25+ (if still alive). Last try was Arco vs Vanheim MA (F9W9N4), I get stomped and neither Elephants nor groups of astral mages scripted to Mind Burn and Paralyze had even marginal efficiency (considering battles opposing somewhat equal cost of troops).
Maybe Fire magic is more effective but I'm don't think it's enough before level 5.
When playing Vanheim the hardest fight I've had was against Machakan big sacred Black Hunters spiders (which had a F9N4 bless). But even then I beat them because they are much harder to produce en masse so they were overwhelmed (I had 80-some vans vs 30-35 spiders, because spiders cost 66% gold and 200% res MORE than a Van).
Worst thing is that when you lose you don't even have survivors as the ultra fast Vans wreak havoc in the rear... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

Hmm, I have only played this vs. the AI, but could a heavy bless Mictlan (F9W9B4) pose some problems to Van in EA even in MP ?

Lots of small units with 2-3 attacks plus some devils for heat auras ?

IIRC those Vans just had a W4 or W6 bless, so W9 might have had a different result, but the Mictlan swarm might be able to overcome this higher bless, too.

CharonJr

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

Mictlan poses problem to anyone. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
But think of it - to kill vans with lots of small units and devils, you must catch them first. They are stealthy and they just ninja your provinces (which have a terrible PD btw). Also, vanheim can wreak havoc amongst your jaguar warriors with bladewind and wind guided indie archers. What can your mages do against the van sacreds?
P.S.
To think of it, as Mictlan you have these2xblessed bats, it may be too much for the Van. Not in MA though, when blood magic is banned by Lawgiver.)

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

I did this as MA Ermor with stealth shadow vestals against MA Mictlan, I had loads of lvl 1N druids, leading 15 shadow vestals stealthy raiding. The druids would bless the vestals with S9W9A4 bless.

However, MA Mictlan with is W9F9S9 blessed jaguar warriors simply created a load of 40 strong armies that countered my stealthy vestals. As soon as I took 1 he took it back. MA Mictlan also had enough troops left over to mount an offensive against me.

So why not do the same against stealthy vans? To every attacking strategy there is usually a counter strategy, the only problem is you have not thought about it yet.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

Yup, stealth is a problem and Mictlan's PD is bad http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Yup, Eaglewarriors ftw http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif and later the summoned flying jaguars - Ozelots (sp?) - with some scared summons (bats and regular jaguars) till you get to them.

3 attacks with a F9 bless should be enough to hit even W9 Van's at least once and get rid of their glamor. Maybe I will try a little hotseat game vs myself later on and see if it works. But considering the cheap Mictlan sacreds I would put my money with them atm.

It might come down to Van raiding Mictlan's provinces while Mictlan stomps throught Van's provinces.

IMO Mictlan would win this one but due to the raiding would have fallen way behind in MP.

CharonJr

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

Yup, personally I have yet to see any setup/nation that can not be countered by a certain strategy, but as many others before me did, I will agree that the ###heim nations tend to have certain advantages.

Niefel with a N10E9 bless is pretty bad, too (70hp, 14hp regen, 20prot berserkers with cold aura IIRC). But due to their small numbers the mentioned above Mictaln swarm works against them or spells like soul slay, desintegrate or similar spells.

Basically I am more inclined to think that high dual/tripple bless strategies are too powerful since not all nations can use those effectively and most games are too short to make up for the early game advantage (which should often translate into a late game advantage as well) by having good scales.

CharonJr

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

Agony, Bloodletting. Both kill the mirror image instantly. Blood Boil, kills one Van/Hel unit instantly, so it's a great spell to spam cast. Since Vans/Hels are capital only and expensive, your enemy will have trouble to replace the lost sacreds. Fireballs are extremely useful against glamor squads, too, since they can catch fire and pass on fire damage to the surrounding units. Vans/Hels are just as vulnerable to magic as any other unit.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

Hmmm, Mictlan is particularly vulnerable to raiding because of the spread out blood hunters. If you can only effectively blood hunt in provinces you've got either a castle or a permanent army stationed, it slows down your blood economy A LOT. I have yet to actually go up against a Van/Helhiem nation on MP (mostly because I focus extra hard on diplomacy with them), but it seems like moderate to heavy raiding would seriously impair non-MA Mictlan.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

So far the real difference I see is that the ****heim advantages are EASIER to use than many others. I think thats what puts them at the top of the finger-pointing chart. Not that they are too powerful but maybe just that it doesnt take much skill to take advantage of it. So it shows up sooner in new players games. The other good tactics need a more experienced player so the ****heim stuff puts a mediocre player on par with experts. That might be an imbalance but Im not sure what change would help it.

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

Personally I go for a fairly focused blood-hunting strategy most of the time (5 provinces with 3 B3+1 hunters in each), but I would have to agree that with mainly fodder as patrols the 3 High Priests would be hard pressed to stop a Van raiding party. But due to having B3 it might not be impossible (no manual here, due to this I don't know if there are some decent spells vs. Van in B1-3).

Guarding 5 provinces with enough units to repel a raid in addition to having some armies claiming Van provinces and hunting for its home province might be too much even with the cheap troops.

But this depends on the phase of the game and how it is progressing overall. The roughly 120 slaves I get this way while "wasting" 90RPs might not be that attractive all the time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

But I will take a look at this in the testgame, too (EA).

CharonJr

Re: Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to str
 

Well yeah they are easier to use. It's hard to use them wrong since they are superior units.

I disagree. A more experienced player, who knows exactly how to take advantage of such uber troops, is really good to tear someone up with them.