Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

The first book in Song of Ice and Fire was, I think, such an excellent read, so complex of a book and so popular, and pushed so hard for sequils, that it would be almost impossible for any writer to live up to it, and consequently, the next books just aren't that good, because how could they be? If you only take into account the pressure Martin's under to churn out sequils, it's going to affect the writing, and just possibly that pressure and stress is bringing out his worse qualities.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

I'm a big Lovecraft fan myself, and it's 1 reason I do love R'Leyh and Atlantis is this game, but I have to concur on the racial problems as well.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

As far as Brust goes, I really admire him as a writer and "Cowboy Feng's Space-Bar and Grill" was superb-however, he seems to be becoming a little bit more mainstream than I care for, and his Taltos books remind me of years and years ago, when we used to do freeform roleplaying in chatrooms and everyone you met seemed to be half elf, half dragon, half supermodel, and have both a mysterious past and an unrealistic eye color.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Since a few people have mentioned old authors, I'd like to point out a collection called Tales before Tolkien, which is, well, a bunch of stories written before the big T cast his Dark Shadow over the genre. (I don't really mind Tolkien, but reading TbT will make it really clear how much he changed fantasy.)

Folks might also like Lord Dunsany, one of the earliest fantasy authors. He influenced Jack Vance, who's already been mentioned. Many of Dunsany's stories are very short -- only a few pages -- but the writing is so good as to suggest huge worlds stretching away beyond the story. The Gods of Pagana is thematic for anybody who wants to play a god. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Likewise, players of Tien Chi <s>should</s> may be interested in Barry Hughart's The Chronicles of Master Li and Number Ten Ox, set in "a China that never was". Usually, only the first story, Bridge of Birds is in print, tho.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

While he was definitely prejudiced I don't think that Lovecraft's work is all that bad here. It's important to remember that racism was the general way of thinking in his time. I can generally shrug off this sort of thing in a book from the 20s where I wouldn't accept it from a modern author. Also, most of his stories don't have racist elements in them, due to lacking characters from any minorities.

Lovecraft is far from unique here as well. I remember a socialist friend of mine getting a tad irate about classist elements in Lord of the Rings, for instance.

With the exception of a few digs at the Chinese, I think that most of Lovecraft's more obviously prejudiced elements are targeted at groups that I believe are now well assimilated in the states - immigrants from southern Europe and whatnot. That takes quite a bit of the sting out of things.


Oh, I'm not sure you're using the term 'Eugenics' correctly here... Eugenics is essentially the idea that one can 'selectively breed' humans. It's not necessarily racist, although it is generally considered to be immoral. Eugenics was embraced by the nazis and this effectively destroyed its credibility.
I don't remember references to it in Lovecraft - his prejudices are mainly displayed by descriptions of immigrants as inferior.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Totally off-topic, but eugenics still hasn't been totally discredited. Marriage between first cousins is outlawed in about half of the states in the United States, and it's justified on eugenic grounds.

-Max

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

In regards to Brust (and its very pleasant to see that he is at least known, usually its a "who?") I really liked his first 5 or 6 Vlad books, then they started to lose something. I seem to remember one "about the author" where he changed his whole view on assassination...which kind of limits a book about an assassin http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Can't be bothered to dig through the box I haven't unpacked yet, but thought it had to do with being morally wrong - possibly occurring around the Orca novel.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

While Gardens of the Moon is not the easiest book to read or get into, and Memories of Ice indeed is the best in the series so far, I would still say that is very bad advice. There is a lot a reader wont understand, a lot that will not have the impact it should, if the reader skips the first two books.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

...and for maximum confusion, start with the second book. Man, I was lost for 400 pages, before I kind of gave up understanding and enjoyed the ride.

I would recommend reading in order. The events in the first book resonate through the first three books (which is as far as I've read), and I personally didn't find the first one so inferior or dissimilar to the rest that I think if you're going to like the series, you will probably like the first book on its own.

My favorite Erikson quote comes from Andrew Wheeler, an editor at the Science Fiction Book Club. He posted on rec.arts.sf.written:

"Something like a Black Company novel written by George R.R. Martin in
which every other character is Elric. Erikson pushes a lot of epic
fantasy buttons, and jams them several feet behind the dashboard."

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Since he hasn't been mentioned yet, I thought I'd add Jack Whyte and his Camulod Chronicals. A must read for all the Marverni, EA Ermor, and Man fans at least. You might want to start with either book 1, The Skystone, or else what's officially book 6, Uther (and then rest the rest from 1). It's pretty sparse in the magic department, so if that's what really interests you then you should probably pass.

Also since we are OT already I'll throw in a plug for the excellent "The Legacy of Heorot" and "Beowulf's Children", an SF take on the classic Beowulf.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

I agree, but I think you'll have that problem no matter *where* you start. There are things in Memories of Ice (book 3) that you won't fully appreciate until you've read Midnight Tides (book 5). (The series definitely benefits from rereads.) If you can accept that you're coming into a story in medias res, Memories of Ice has a nice theme about compassion and gives you a good grounding on the background of the Malazan universe that will help you understand Gardens of the Moon and Deadhouse Gates (books 1 and 2). If you start with Gardens of the Moon, you may feel like you're starting in the middle of the series anyway.

YMMV.

-Max

P.S. I think that's why I dislike Gardens of the Moon--I still can't figure out what it's ABOUT. Erikson started out as a painter, and he says the title and theme of the book come to him first. Memories of Ice is about compassion and redemption, House of Chains is about different responses to failure, Deadhouse Gates is about... I'm not sure, but I like Coltaine's story enough that maybe his theme carried me through the other, more puzzling parts. (I don't know what Fiddler's and Cutter's story was about.) I have no idea what Gardens of the Moon is supposed to be about, or why it has that title. If someone could explain that to me my attitude towards GotM might improve.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

I have to disagree on Steven King's Dark Tower. While I am a fan of some of his work, with The Shining being on my alltime top 25 list, I did not enjoy the gunslinger.

He was not my idea of a hero, he let a kid die for no real reason. I sort of have to identify with the character, and care what happens to him, for me to have an interest in the book.

In martin's series, the only characters i care about, jon snow and bran(crippled kid) were not even included in his last book.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Few additions that weren't mentioned:
David Coe. "Winds of the Forelands" serie.
That's a pretty good serie and the books don't detiorate as the serie progresses (at least not first 4 I've read). Combination of original political system and well-balanced http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif magic system create rather interesting world. Few characters are "too white" or "too black", but the bulk of the cast is somewhere in between. Strategy and tactics (oops, I meant plot) are very good, maybe not at Martin's level, but well above average.
David Coe. "The LonTobyn chronicle". This earlier (first by the author) trilogy is fantasy with a bit of SF mixed-in. Magic world competes with industrial world. Quite good, maybe a bit weaker than "Winds of the Forelands".

Robert Silverberg's "Majipoor" books. Technically a science fiction, but stylistically it's a fantasy. Unusually peaceful for the fantasy book, well-written characters and good epic atmosphere without pages after pages with no events (common plague of genre).

George Martin's other books: "Sandkings", "The hedge knight", "Fevre Dream", "Windhaven", "Dying of the light". They vary from SF to gothic to fantasy, but all are very good. None of them have the stuff from "A song of ice and fire" Edi was unhappy about http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Btw, I agree with Edi about 4th book and with Teraswaerto about the first 3.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Yes, yes, yes.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Another Yes, Yes, yes.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Michael Scott Rohan's Winter of the World trilogy is great. It's built on a mix of Finnish and Celtic mythology and quite a few original ideas on the author's part.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Harry Turtledove is mostly known for his alternative histories, but some of his early work is low fantasy. The Empire of Videssos series, particularly the Lost Legion books, drop a Republican period Roman Legion down in a fictional empire which is in the late Empire stage. As a professional historian, his writing is informed with quite some depth.

That said, I find his newer work is not as good as his early work, much like Raymond Feist. I suspect first books are often really worked on for a long time, as there is no publisher. Later books get pushed through quickly as publishing contacts and so forth dominate the author’s time. Could be wrong, just my impression. In any case, Turtledove’s newer works are all alternative history and not fantasy, so outside the bounds of this discussion.

Several writers really need aggressive editors. Terry Goodkind stands out as does Tad Williams who wrote Memory, Sorrow and Thorn guy. Far too much verbiage and not enough plot. War of the Flowers is Williams’ best book by far and it is a single fat book. Sometimes a trilogy is far too much. I also think Stephen King could do with some heavy editing, though I can not argue that his commercial success suggests I am wrong.

I recently re-read Zelazny’s Amber books, twenty years after the first reading. Still good books, but not really up to my adult expectations. There is one passage where he is discussing the recruiting of troops and finding impressionable, high school types. The author then speaks directly to the reader for a moment and apologizes, as if his expectation was that most readers were male high school students. He was right the first time, but as I aged, I found his books less satisfying. I think that is one reason I like Martin’s books, they are adult through and through. One poster noted they would not have their kids read Martin. I fully agree and think that is one of the strengths of these books. If we were to list kids fantasy books, we would have a very different list than the one we have here and still have some excellent writing.

As for Conan… Yes, it was great fun back in high school, but it has aged even worse than Zelazny. What was the term used earlier? Adolescent wet dreams? It is pulp fiction, the Jon Carter of Mars for the fantasy readers. Influential and fun, but nothing more.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

If Conan is too aged for you, but you want to read some Sword and Sorcery, look up C.L. Moore. Her Jirel short stories, though written in the 1930s like Conan, have a distinctly different feel to them.

I already mentioned Moorcock, but he is worth mentioning again. Slightly more modern, but still within the Sword and Sorcery tradition, and everyone should read at least the Elric saga.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Moorcock was my favourite when I was young. The compelling thing about his books are the many subtle secrets and interlocks between the different books, giving new insights whenever you read one of the books again.

However, today I would say that more modern works like Song of ice and Fire and Nightwatch/Daywatch are more refined... it's a bit like evolution in writing.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

I am fairly deep in the JV Jones 1st book of the sword of shadow trilogy. I decided to skip the 1st series, for now, and go right in to the sos trilogy. It is extremely well written, with one glaring exception.

Maybe because the author is a woman, did not play rugby, box, wrestle, or play American football, but there is no way Reif could have taken a near death beating by 5 or 6 healthy men, who hated him with a passion, over the course of days, and then be in any shape to travel over a brutally cold frozen tundra a week later. He would needs many weeks of good care to recover.

Ignoring the fact that none of his wounds got infected in a filthy environment, and even allowing for youth healing quicker, the fact that he is relatively fit, and suffered no
broken bones that required months to heal, there is no way he can travel that soon after taking that kind of beating.

If some form of magical healing was done, ok, but none was.
Maybe his affinity with the old blood lets him heal at an much faster rate? Was that part of the 1st series that i skipped?

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Yes, I agree-I've read fantasy since I was about 4 years old, but as I've aged-I'm turning 30 (scary!) in a week-my tastes have changed. I don't put up with books that don't grab me and compel me to read them. I simply don't have patience for them and lose interest. Right now I'm reading George Alec Effinger's Audran Marid trilogy. Really excellent stuff there. It's sci-fi though, but it's the style that I appreciate. It's written for adults, about real adults, and it's interesting *to* adults-atleast to me.

A great shame that he died, especially as young as he was.
His writing is a bit like Steven Brust, when he's at his best.

Has anyone else here read Little, Big? It really is the best fantasy book I've ever read-and it's really exceptional for me to admit something like that without atleast a token reservation.

It might speak more to me than to younger or very much older readers though-I realize that I'm not ancient, but I did grow up from the 70s through the 80s to the 90s and didn't really become an "adult" until the turn of the century, and I think the book speaks to that very directly and clearly. The writing's good, and different enough that it's interesting by itself. The setting itself starts out modern, but...I won't spoil it for you.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

SWORD OF SHADOWS SPOILER



















Xietor, might have had something to do with Death refusing to let him die. Nothing about Old Blood in the first series the same way it is in the second.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

No one is going to mention Xanth novels? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

I think it's been mentioned twice in this thread (once by me). I'd call it one of the finest fantasy books ever written. It's very well regarded within the genre.

It as the most American fantasy book I've read. Whereas fantasy in the currently dominant Tolkein vein is (understandably) deeply rooted in especially Northern European traditions, Little, Big is as purely and independently American as America herself is. That is, almost, but not quite. The book, like America, has strong European (especially British) roots but has then made its own way in the world to something new and different.

If you're still wondering abou it...it's set in something like the second half of the 20th century, in an America much like ours, yet abstracted to the specificity of myth. A young man marries into an old family with a house in the country and becomes a part of their ongoing Story. Along the way you will find the country, the city, love, strife, a depression, progress, conspiracies, soap operas, hippies, orreries, some magic, and beauty and sadness that will make you gasp. Yes, it's literary. No orcs, no swords. Elves? Maybe...

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Yeah, I mentioned it before, but I didn't know if anyone else had read it, Have you read John Crowley's "Aegypt"? If so, no spoilers, please! I've been trying to track down a copy.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

I haven't read it. I'd been waiting for the fourth (and final) book in the series to come out before starting. And lo, after a search prompted by your question, I see that it is out! I would think that would prompt a reprint of all of them, if they aren't in print now.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Once they come out, I'll happily buy a set-providing I can find one.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

The Black Company triology is just solid. The books of the south aren't as good but better than I remembered. I just reread them and they had some interesting aspects. The Ten Taken are some of the coolest fantasy wizards ever made.

Cook's stand alone Tower of Fear is solid as well.

I enjoy Guy Gabrial Kay's work. Enjoy his characters and storytelling.

Like the tips like Bakker and J. Jones.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

I just finished Black Company White Rose Trilogy.

Very good stuff. Thanks for the suggestion!

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Me and my brother just finished writing our first fantasy novel a few months ago. Been shopping it around to publishers but haven't gotten anything yet. It's not typical fantasy however, because we're not usually fantasy writers.

Out of curiosity what do you look for in a fantasy? I find it impossible to find a good original fantasy these days. Everything is Orcs, Elves and wizards(BORING). Dominions is like the only fantasy game without those and I absolutely praise it because of that. Although, it has dwarves... grr

MrMatt

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Interesting thread, I'm obviously a fantasy reader myself and with an opinion

I like Martin, Erikson and Jordan very much and those 3 are the best series I know

I think Magician (Feist) is the best single volume you can have and if I had to pick 1 book on a deserted island this would be it. Other series of Feist are nice, often the thicker the books the better the series (yes last series are less good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif)

Hobb is good, not as good as the first 3 I mentioned but all books are of same (good) quality, no below avarage books or mini's like Feist has done.

The prince of nothing series is good too, I like it very much.

I think Goodkind isn't all that, it started nice but the way he keeps just finding something new in each book makes them almost look like separate books instead of a series and I dislike that (I hope you all get what I mean by this.)

The black company I do not know but considering the reactions I'll look for it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

C.S. Friedman is very high in some lists but IMHO just mediocre.
Eddings is nice to read one of his first series, but if you read all it is very much alike. The newer books are even less good.
Not to impressed with Donaldson

And I SO MUCH want to find a book with the original Conan story in one cover.. but dun even know which ones that would be and I've not even found one here in the Netherlands
Hmm K.J. Parker and Fencer.. that rung a bell too.. I have the first book here in dutch and liked it VERY much.. too bad I never saw anything of it again.. maybe look for it in english.. never knew there where more books of it
already.

I want to put R.A. Salvatore on the list too, not most brilliant of writing but DRZZT and Artemis Entreri must be some of my most favorite characters of all time

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Song of Ice and Fire were great for low magic books, lots of combat, intrigue and a good "world". Valyrian steel, minor dragons, and nebulous evil bits.

Personally I like the dragonlance model, group of friends turn hero, get powerful, save world. Unfortunately its been done to death so its the rare version that sticks out.

Discworld model is nice, build a "world" and just tell stories in it. If the concept is good enough, the stories can be hit or miss but still positive re: forgotten realms/sanctuary.

My take on fantasy is that by being unreal it opens up a lot of options. It can combine elements of all the major genres without being pigeonholed: Love, sex, intrigue, murder, mystery, horror, military, government, coming of age, politics, "save the world", one hero/multiple hero, etc. Whatever those 7 great themes that find themselves repeated through history are, one fantasy book can encompass them all.

"Magic" can be construed in whatever way floats your boat. High magic, no problem. Low magic, you bet. Forgotten magic, ancient technology, magic vs technology, magic and technology, even stories lacking magic but referring to old magic are feasible.

Most fantasy books are just kludges of other plotlines, with fantastical characters or plot devices. A good portion of them could be easily set in the real world, they'd just be boring.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

In regards to the Black Company, I'm a big fan of military fantasy. Erikson's are good, Martin has some good bits although I think the intrigue and politics are the main focus, John Ringo has a kind of post-apocalyptic series that is great, and Chris Bunch has a nice trilogy.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Writing is tough (I've tried). Good luck with that.

What do I look for? Tough to answer, because it's tough to generalize about writing. No sooner do you swear off adolescent coming-of-age fantasies with magic and swords than Gene Wolfe writes The Wizard Knight and you have to take it all back and admit there's something left in the subgenre.

So I'll answer twice but maybe it's the same answer, twice. First, it shouldn't be derivative. It should be its own thing. Erikson's massive Malazan series isn't like anything that came before it, not really. Brust writes about elves, but they ain't Tokein's, or D&amp;D's, or anyone else's. And when you pick up China Mieville, you probably haven't seen anything like it, ever. So, for fantasy, originality is key. (I mean, look at Patricia McKillip. Every darn book, she uses wizards, elves, dragons, forests, castles, and somehow she turns each one into a work of art, because she puts them together like no one else. Plus, her prose is absolutely beautiful.)

The other way to say that answer is to paraphrase a quote from Wolfe as related by Brust (I can't find the reference): the key to writing is to show the reader something cool, over and over. Skip the parts that aren't cool.

OK, and a third, less philosophical answer: as I get older, I find that characterization matters more and more. Doesn't have to be "realistic", just richely detailed, interesting, and believable within the story.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Did you write a book, djo?

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Ok, everyone here seems to be going over the same stuff, so let me add something new.
I would suggest, with most of my heart and a lease on my soul, the work of David Gemmel. Seriously, it is magical.

A relatively new auther that has grabbed me is Jim Butcher. His Dresdan Files stuff is good, and i really have enjoyed his new series, The Alera Codex. The first two are a little off, the second fixing the first one's mistakes but loseing the first ones sucesses, but the third brings everything good about the other two into a brilliant novel.

L.E. Moddessitt Jr. is a good writer, but each book is a 50/50 chance of genius or boredom. I really liked "THe Magic Engineer", but everyone is different.

Micheal Stackpole is hard to describe because his stuff starts out good, but it tends to get sidetracked.

Cook has been mentioned but I would like to concur. The Black Company is fantastic and his new books (Instrumentalities of the Night) are pretty good.

I would also like to express my opinions on Robert Jordan and Martin. One major point of a good writer is the ability to kill a developed character. Jordan and Martin are the two extremes in this. Jordan can't let them die and Martin kills them off like they're nothing. Something in between is the sweet spot, but both authers are still good, they just annoy me so.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

I've started once or twice but never got beyond a handful of chapters. I have written short stories, novelettes, and novellas. Only one was good enough to submit, but it was rejected by the few magazines I sent it to.

I am only somewhat better at writing fiction than I am at playing Dominions.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Sad to say, I'm going to be reading a lot lately, my hard drive died, so all I have is my work computer, and I can't play Dominions on that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Has anyone read the series of books the movie Night Watch is based on? I guess the originals are in Russian (as is the movie). I'm going to be checking them out.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

I read "Night Watch", not impressed. Clunky writing, shaky premise. Good portion of that may be due to translation, but meh.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Nice thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Call me strange, but I found that reading one-off fantasy novels tend to be a bit weak in the background department.

So I tend to read historical mystery novels and RPG sourcebooks as a sort of "imaginative fertilizer", to better set the stage and tone of fantastic story-telling.

Both of these sources of writing DEMAND a level of precision and detail that I typically don't find in novels, due to space and plot constraints.

Unfortunately, you can't stop the story and ask for clarification in a novel. No Pause, Zoom or Rotate here, folks.

Specifically, I recommend the historical mysteries written by Stephen Saylor, Barry Hughart and the Brother Cadbury series.

For RPG Sourcebooks, you can't go wrong with Exalted, Ars Magica, ICE Middle-Earth, Earthdawn and Warhammer RPG.

And then, there's Samurai Cat...

Edit: And The Redeemer... both of which greatly contributed to my appreciation for gratuitous violence

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

And Vampire: The Masquerade! (and presumably the new version Vampire: The Requiem as well). I really love reading those books, I have about ten of them even though I have no intention of ever playing it (seems to me it would be a bit emo for my tastes). Actually I never play RPGs at all, but I do enjoy reading the books.

Edit: I mean the RPG rule/sourcebooks, not the novels - I read half a V:tM novel once and wasn't impressed. Seems to me the guys who write the RPGs are absolutely top of the line in their writing skill (after all, it's often considered one of the best RPGs around), whereas the kind of author who would accept that kind of franchise for a novel would, I suspect, not be the best. I don't know how fair that is though.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

If we're taking Vampire, try checking out Vampire: The Middle Ages - it's a subset of the original Masquerade series.

It's got more of the mainstream "fantasy" feel, being actually set in the Middle Ages.

As for RPG writers and Fantasy writers, I honestly don't see why there has to be a distinction. It's not as if writers make all that much to be so specialized. At the very least, it might prove a useful springboard for aspiring writers, much like the phonebook mangas are for manga writers in Japan, or console games are becoming for musicians.

And it allows a greater body of potential writers to find a medium that plays to their particular tastes.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Read it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Edit: That's "read" in the past tense rather than imperative sense! And yes, it's quite excellent.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Robin Hobb.. The trilogy about a young royal assassin.. Man, ive read tons and tons of books and thats the best it gets..

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Many, many good recommandations in here.

David Gemmel does wonders. I recently saw parts of the movie Sparta. His books are like "SPARTAAA!", except more hardcore. The Legend, especially, the book showing Druss the Axeman fighting his last battle, an impossible fight against unbeatable enemy, just an old man whose axe is no longer demon-possessed. And we see how the legends still pale before the man behind them. Awesome!

Naomi Novik - ah, dragonriders! "Captain Laurence of His Majesty's Navy, on Temeraire; I am at present unassigned." But not for long, as 20-ton dragons, especially ones as maneuverable or intelligent as Temeraire, can hardly be left unused while Napoleon's army marches undefeated through Europe and threatens Britain itself. Fantastic series.

Gene Wolfe, and his Wizard Knight duology. It is. I can't really describe it, but you should read it - it's a strange mix of excellent writing, weirdness and familiar stories.

Scott Lynch wrote an interesting low-fantasy story, Lies of Locke Lamora. A strange city and strange world, a league of tricksters, and a deal of bad luck. Nice, but not extraordinary.

Diana Wynne Jones writes for young adults, but that doesn't mean the books aren't good. I've especially enjoyed Dark Lord of Derkholm, even though the sequel isn't quite at the same level.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

Gene Wolfe is the pre-eminent fantasy/sci-fi author of our day, and the Wizard Knight duology is an excellent example of his craft. I would recommend it heartily.

I don't know if he has been mentioned here, but the old grand master of fantasy is Jack Vance. His Tales of the Dying Earth is a classic (especially Cujel's Saga). It's the basis of much of the AD&amp;D magic system. And his Lyonesse trilogy is pure greatness. His books are mostly out of print and a bit hard to find, but you can usually find used copies on Amazon.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

This thread has added many a book to my wish list ..

Song of ice and fire .. Easily one of my favorites .

Start reading Robert Jordans series now you'd prolly finish all those books just in time for the last one..

Malazan is another good one..

Tho id call all 3 of those "heavy reading"

Tolkien is a given

Robert E Howards original Conan stories have been released unedited in a 3 book series .. Id say a must read for any fantasy fans ..



Now for some easier reading.. The Drizzt Saga in Forgotten Realms is enjoyable ..

Books set in the Warhammer world to esp the Gotrek And Felix series and the Dark Blade Series for the Pov from a "bad guy"

These are full of action but wont make you do any deep thinking ..

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

It is unlikely Jordan ever completes his series. And to be honest its quality goes down rapidly after book 4.

"On March 23, 2006, Jordan disclosed in a statement[2] in a firm and optimistic tone that he has been diagnosed with primary amyloidosis with cardiomyopathy (cardiac amyloidosis), and that, with treatment, his median life expectancy is four years, though he says he intends to beat the statistics. He later posted on his Dragonmount blog to encourage his fans not to worry about him and that he intends to have a long and fully creative life, working for another 30 years.

He began chemotherapy treatment at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota in early April 2006.[3] Jordan is currently enrolled in a study using the drug Revlimid just approved for multiple myeloma but not yet tested on primary amyloidosis."

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

I would agree that the quality of Robert Jordan's books goes donw appreciably after book 4. I only hope that he can finish the final book, and that it is a resurgance of his earlier books in the series.

Re: OT: good fantasy books
 

A very good *writer* but not really a "storyteller". I liken his books to fantasy version of the later Melville. Symbolism out the wazoo. I haven't read the Wizard Knight though, just the Torturer and Latero books.

Vance is one of my top three favorite writers. Amazing stories/charactors. Hard to find his books though (which is a shame). George RR Martin has stated that Vance is HIS favorite fantasy/sci-fi author.