Re: Dud nations
 

Gem use is directly linked to fatigue. My comment was meant to DrPraetorius, who said the spell's fatigue would be 100, and thus it would take one gem. I'm just wondering why the spell doesn't either deal physical damage or have F1E1 requirement.


Repel is just 1 point of damage, even though it's armor-negating. If Pike had the actual #flail ability (which it doesn't, according to Edi's list), pikes would have surprising offensive uses against e.g. knights. It's the difference of (att 10 against parry 12 [prot 18+shield 18]) or (att 10 against defense 7 [prot 18]) or so. They'd be even better against infantry using heavy shields, like Ermorian/Pythian legionnaires and, to a lesser extent, the various Hoplites. It's an interesting idea.

Re: Dud nations
 

So your a submarine and I am a battleship, in that case where are my destroyers with the depth charges? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Dud nations
 

Ulm wants to use spells, of course. However, I'd rather like to see new spells that everyone can use, but which only Ulm can excel with. Your Sparks would be a spell that Earth/Fire mages could use with heavy troops, and the nation using it would also need some Earth income. MA Agartha has almost the same mages (W1 instead of 10%FAES random), but as the nations are similar and both've been called duds in this thread boosting it won't be a problem. To avoid E3F1 and better mages from abusing it, it'd have to scale much more slowly as a non-restricted spell. Otherwise it could probably stay as you wrote it. Apart from an occasional Abysian or perhaps EA/LA Agarthan mage casting it, it wouldn't see much use.

Re: Dud nations
 

Yes it is. I think pikes are currently rather underpowered and their seemingly most natural use, versus cavalry, doesn't actually work out. I rarely build pike units when others are available for roughly the same cost, because repel never seems to do much for me. Now if pikes had some other hook, such as flail bonus,... well that would make them rather more interesting. Is there some other bonus that could be given to them to make them more effective against cavalry and other very offensive units? Perhaps a simple defence boost would make sense? I mean it would just be like improving the repel effect - keeping your pikey alive so other units can do more damage.

Re: Dud nations
 

Improving attack would improve repel, as would improving damage.

#charge would give the pikeneers one stronger attack (although it would be much weaker than a knight's charge).

Oh, and according to the mod manual:
4.24 #flail
The weapon has an attack bonus against shields.

I don't have my Dom3 manual with me, so I can't check if it has the details of the ability... Seeing as I'm misremembering lots of things recently, my earlier post about flail-pike vs knight is probably wrong. #flail doesn't negate the shield, just has a bonus (static? dependent on parry value?) against shielded troops.

Also, it seems repel doesn't AUTOMATICALLY deal that 1 point of damage, but the defender has to overcome the attacker's protection as well. From the Dom:PPP manual:

20.4.9 Repel
If an attacker strikes at an enemy with a longer
weapon he might be repelled and possibly lose
his attack. This is worked out as follows:
A: Attacking , D: Defending
A strikes but D has a longer weapon. D makes
an immediate attack vs A. If it is a miss A will
continue his attack on D. If D hit A with the repelling
attack A is forced to make a morale check
or lose his attack on D.
If A makes the morale check he strikes D even
thoughD has placed his weapon between him and
A. D generates a damage value and A generates
a protection value. If the damage value is greater
then the protection value A takes one hit point of
damage. A can now make his strike.
Repel is most effective against light and cowardly
units. Natural weapons such as claws and
bites have a length of 0 and are easy to repel.

Re: Dud nations
 

Naw Bob, you're Atlantis. You're not the battleship, you're the seal splashing around in great white waters. Don't worry, once you scamper out the water you should be safe enough for now. ;P

Re: Dud nations
 

What makes length 0 "weapons" easier to repel than a spear (length 4) when you have a pike (length 5)? I cannot see that in the description except that it states it to be so.

Re: Dud nations
 

I still don't 100% understand that. Is the most damage a repel can do 1 damage then? I mean if A attacks, D launches his repel attack and hits, then A fails his morale check, is that 1 damage max, or is it a standard hit from the weapon?

It doesn't make sense that he would take less damage purely because of his morale, so I'm guessing repel either does 1 damage and stops their attack, 1 damage and doesn't stop them, or fails completely.

If that's the case, increasing the damage dealt by long weapons wouldn't aid repel, but adding to attack would. One problem with the system seems to be that repelling a 0 length weapon is equally as easy with a 1 length weapon as a 6 length weapon,... and 1 length weapons are more likely to have an attack bonus.

Re: Dud nations
 

ME Ulm is pretty clearly themed around the Holy Roman Empire and the contributory German states out of which it was made.

But like the historical empire on which it is based, the Holy Roman Empire didn't really succeed in getting anywhere because it's armies while well equiped and very large were not invincible or even any more successful than it's neighbors.

What i'd like to see for ME Ulm, following it's Imperial theme, is an emphasis on Crusading and, perhaps, and a bit of spice in the Lombard/Italian flavor.

Condottiere mercenaries and sacred and/or morale boosting Crusading units would be very helpful.

Re: Dud nations
 

Pikes

Everybody look at me !

How about making ALL cavalry Animal ? Then you could have very interesting effects with Animal Awe ! As a quick, dirty hack you could give all pikineers Animal Awe.

Re: Dud nations
 

Yes, that would be cool indeed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Dud nations
 

That's what I thought. Animal Awe is rare enough that it wouldn't affect the balance all that much. But I'd hate to play Bandar Log once all pikineers get Animal Awe ! The best fix I can think about would be removing animal tag from most of their units.

Other than that, I see no reason spells (etc...) affecting animals shouldn't work on cavalry as well.

Re: Dud nations
 

That's quite an interesting idea you got there. It might be a little bit tricky to make all the changes necessary to get this working and make it balanced,... but if it could be done it would make pikes a lot more distinct. You could arguably give a lower animal awe status to long spear units as well.

Re: Dud nations
 

From Edi's database I can construct a list of all mounted units and a list of all units equipped with whatever weapons easily enough.

I still think this is a bit of a kludge. A preferable fix would be a power weapons could have,
#pike

Which enabled them to ignore the defensive bonus provided by mounted units, in the same way that #flail lets you ignore shield parries. That would require slight modification to the game engine, but I think it'd be enough of an improvement that you could talk Johan into implementing it.

Re: Dud nations
 

Pikeneers probably *should* animal-awe SOME horses-ones that aren't specifically trained as war-horses, seeing as how horses are generally smart enough not to impale themselves on a pike wall.

Re: Dud nations
 

Endoperez,

I like your mod for ulm, but 1 huge glaring exception. I would make the warlord identical to Man's wardens. Even if it is capital only.

Ulm needs a military thug that is not crippled with the mr 9. It is a waste of a fire brand to put it in the hands of a unit that is so vulnerable to a simple smite.

I also think all of Ulms troops and commanders need their mr raised to 10. 9 is just crippling, and the r"lyeh just salivate if they see ulm.

I guess you could put a lead shield in the thug's shield slot, but it is a crappy shield except for the mr. Maybe one answer to ulms commanders is to give ulm a better mr shield at construction 4. Give Ulm a unique shield that no other race can get.

15 earth gems

protection 20
parry 8
spiked(ap attack)dam 3
plus 4 mr
encumbrance 2
plus 4 attack(it is hard to miss with a shield bash, the target is right in front of you)
minus 1 defense

In fact unique items in the construction tree seems thematically better than spells. But regardless, do away with the 9 mr. I would never play ulm with a 9 mr. It is too huge of a disadvantage.

I also do not like the noble concept with a morale of 8. Cowardly leaders of a nation that disdains magic and prides itself on steel seems unfitting.

Re: Dud nations
 

I totally agree about the 9 MR. I mean, I have problems occasionally with Niefel Jarls, who have between 18 and 22 MR right off the bat. 9 is just ridiculous for a nation that doesn't use or want anything to do with magic.

Re: Dud nations
 

You have to use drain scales, iron will and tempering the will or you be dead. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Dud nations
 

Drain scale is only in your own dominion. Are you not supposed to send your armies into enemy dominions, which may have a magic scale9mr 8 now for ulm).

Temper the will is a joke. It is down a tree ulm does not research, and it is deep in that tree for ulm. Meanwhile, your expensive black lords are being one shotted by races that get smite from the start of the game(they do not have to research to level 5 a tree they would otherwise not use to get smite).

I can see crippling units like elephants with low mr, but why Ulm's entire race? Ulm already has no priests to speak of, crappy mages and research, (to add insult to injury, its crappy mages get old age lol), resource hog troops like abysia's, but nowhere close to their power.

If low mr is the price of drain 3, remove drain 3. Id rather have better units than a "free" 120 points. It really is not free in that it cripples you in use of independent mages. Take away that small chance for an additional magic slot, and give better troops.

one race should really be able to win with little or no research on the back of its armies. And that race should be MA ulm.

Re: Dud nations
 

Yes, "tempering the will" is level 5 but "iron will" is level 3. It can save your expensive units if you place the mages nearby scripted with it.

And why are you fighting inside the enemies dominion? That is not a good thing unless you have a lot of morale and in some cases magic resistance. Instead, slowly advance forward preaching and building temples and castles (production bonus) in the manner of Ulm MA. Almost all their unit have map move 1 anyway so don't rush it and play like your playing Caelum or something. If you do it right you can let the enemy tie up his forces against your high defense fortresses whilst you turtle your way to his capitol.

Re: Dud nations
 

I was thinking this as I was reading the thread. It's simple and elegant, and probably not too difficult to program.

As for Ulm, I could rattle on about the various ideas I've had for them over the years; assassins, high-MR knights and guardians, stealthy preachers, standard-bearers, repeating crossbows, more types of cavalry, etc.

But most of the subtlety of Dominions is in the magic. Why don't we just bite the bullet?

Give Ulm 3E2F1? capital-only Smith Lords. Just like that, they become a fearsome nation.

Re: Dud nations
 

Re: Dud nations
 

If you are always able to fight in your own dominion, then god bless you. What if your enemy is ctis and he took dom 10 to start. Ulm has crappy prists, it will lose a preaching fight against most races.

I have never found it to be a successful battle strategy to only fight in your own dominion. And a race like Ulm should not have both low mr and low morale to force it to. I guess ulm basic infantry does not have low morale, it has 10 morale, but is handicapped unlike most every other race, with no way to boost it.

So we have no blessed troops(blessed troops get 2 morale among other things), beyond weak priests, poor research, poor mages, low mr, average(at best) morale, poor mages(with old age), a natioanl spell that tries to compensate for a penalty that Ulm should not be saddled with, a forge bonus, but no unique construction items or national summons, very limited magic access(so limited the manual says to take an awake alchemist, which of course makes a great sc(saracasm on).

And in return Ulm gets infantry that would be crushed by many of the other races that have high mr, good mages, strong priests, ways to heal afflictions, low resource troops with high defense, wide acces to magic, strong national summons.

Ulm does get spies, which are not a great fit with a nation forging its path with steel. So i would not cry to see them removed either in return for better fighting infantry.

Re: Dud nations
 

I think that Ulm should have to research as much as any other race. I just think this research should be mostly confined to Construction, and that they should have access to magic weapons and armor that other races don't get-especially ME Ulm.

don't have a big problem if they get a few national Evocation spells that their smiths can use, though, because that's reasonably thematic.

They definitely *should* have a lot of access to black steel armour, though, with all the benefits that entails.

Re: Dud nations
 

I thought of 2 theme-based abilities for endoperez' Warlords:


Battleshout: a unique battle cry that puts the blood lust in fighting men. plus 2 morale to all friendly units.

Demoralizing shout: -2 morale to any unit within 10 spaces of the warlord.

it may be better to put the demoralizing shout on a different commander, as you do not want the warlord overpowered.

Re: Dud nations
 

Honey,

Why should a race that disdains magic have to research as much as any other race? In fact, as a price for the improved troops, and a beefed up construction tree, I would like to see Ulm's access to many spells removed, certainly any global magic using either death or astral magic, including dispel.

I think Ulm should get a much reduced research tree since they disdain magic, and be a race that relies on steel, forged items, and thug commanders. But you cannot have a good thug with a mr of 9(8 in a hostile dom having magic scale).

Re: Dud nations
 

I have no problem with limiting Ulm's access to spells and increasing greatly their access to magic items, other appropriate spells, and holy magic. Maybe throw in the ability that any spell they have researched and could actually cast, they get a very hefty MR bonus against, in addition to being able to cast it.

Re: Dud nations
 

If D's repel roll is successfull, and A fails his morale roll, A's attack is canceled but he takes no damage.

If D's repel roll and A's morale roll are successfull, A takes 0 or 1 damage and does his attack as planned. The 0 damage happen when D's damage roll doesn't get through A's protection. So a str10 pikeman might sometimes stop a knight from attacking, but rarely hurt him with the repel.

I suspect that A's shield protection is included if D's attack roll earlier didn't bypass the shield... but hard to know.

I like the ideas of giving ulm methods to hurt sacreds or magic beings. Are they good *weapon* forgers too? A new any-castle unit with magic weapons might be fun. Or even elf bane/moon blade (vs magic beings), or herald lance/flambeau (vs demons and undead). Or smasher(anti-lifeless), Star of heroes(armor destruction).... yeah... a 30-gold unit with these and a shield!

Re: Dud nations
 

Ulm's limitations on magic comes from their lack of mages being able to cast the spells. There is no reason to give them a different research tree.

Re: Dud nations
 

they are not limited if they take an alchemist pretender like the manual suggests. If they do that, it is only a matter of time until the alchemist finds the gems with which to cast most magical spells.

especially global spells, limited mages does not hinder a pretender from having strong astral or death magic, and casting global spells that are highly magical. As they arose from the cinders of ermor(that is their description), I cannot imagine they are fond of death magic or the undead.

of course, not having bane lord thugs, no real access to gift of reason, they would need a commander, like endoperez warlord, with some mr or special construction items to enhance mr, to have a prayer as an effective thug.

I can just see a warlord with a fire brand fighting ermor and getting smited 3 times a turn by its priests with an 8 or 9 mr. Yeah the lead shield sucks, i know all about it. But of course id give him that over nothing.

Re: Dud nations
 

If you give Ulm lots of religious stuff they become just like Marignon. Their primary difference is that they lack the crazy religious crap, at least in the middle era.

-- edit: I said Ermor instead of Ulm. Sorry, was typing fast. --

How's about this for spells? It's from Vision of Escaflowne (an anime):

Construct Prognostication Engine, The Mage Smiths of Ulm have little patience for numerology or for squiting at specks in the celestial firmament. They construct prognostication engines, great steal contraptions driven by clockwork and magic, to perform such tasks for them.

Const 3, EEE, 15 gems, gives an immobile, drain-immune, inanimate astral-2 mage with a +2 research bonus, immunity to drain dominion and the ability to avert bad events.

Also - I hesitate to suggest this because I'm not sure if it's moddable, but how about a national spell that triggers a resource increasing event? This would prevent Ulm from going on a rampage early but would boost your production enough to let you stay competitive with summoned armies in the mid game, I would think.

Re: Dud nations
 

great ideas, dr.

But Ulm needs a melee thug. That is a thematic. Endoperez warlord is good, except he either needs better mr, or unique construction items to boost his absurdly low mr. that do not require astral magic.

(Ermor MA has level 3 priests btw. I did not make that race heh. so i cannot answer why they have high level priests. But Ermor is fine as is, i just used them as an example of a race with level 3 priests).

I also think all pikemen, not just Ulms, should get a significant attack bonus against mounted units. Can you imagine charging into a wall of set pikes? Yes the 1st wall of pike would take big losses from the charge bonus, but charging into set pikes would also take a big toll on the 1st wave of calvary units.

maybe a 1st strike ability, with a high attack by the pike when facing a calvary unit?

I also think the warlord should have his leadership increased to 80. If the nobleman's morale is to be left at 8, he should have leadership zero. Not many of the ulm warriors of steel would follow a coward.

Re: Dud nations
 

Should Abysia be prevented from casting water spells, LA Ermor from nature, etc.?

The concept of pretenders does not dictate that the pretender must stick to such things that are thematic to the nation. It is a being of power that uses a nation to get what it wants, why should it care about it's servants not liking like magic? Giving Ulm more thematic pretender choices would be good, but I see no reason to take away the possibility to cast unthematic spells.

Re: Dud nations
 

Teraswaerto:

Why should Ulm rely on unthematic pretenders to get the job done ? Why not just improve existing pretenders ?

-----

Balancing Ulm sounds very hard. If you improve their national units too much, you'll end up with another Vanheim. No matter what you do to national units, all of them are available from the start.

It sounds like Ulm's best hope is to attack early before enemies accumulate mages and research. This is directly in conflict with the idea of fighting only in your own dominion !

Some thematic improvements:
- assassins with unusually high MR and perhaps even 20-ish elemental resistance. They can even be supernatural or something. Someone already came up with this idea before.

- Perhaps give them 20 percent discount when bidding for mercenaries ?

- Standard bearers/Horn blowers with enchanted standards/horns. Increases MR of nearby units !

- Allow them to alchemize (captured) magic items into gems.

- make their PD scary

- change Black Plate so that it provides MR bonus

- do something !

Re: Dud nations
 

As a similar alternative repels could ignore the mounted defense bonus. If the horse stops because it's threatened then it doesn't matter if the rider is harder to hit.

Re: Dud nations
 

Allowing them to alchemize all magic items into gems would be a nice ability for them. Kind of dull but hey-it'd be useful.

Re: Dud nations
 

Improving Ulm as Endoperez has done with his mod, PLUS giving the warlord commander 12-13 mr, 80 leadership, and raising all of ulms mr from 9 to 10, would not make them vanaheim at all.

In a blitz game, their units would still be trampled by elephants, with no way to capitalize on the elephants low mr, against pangaea, even with the improvements, their infantry would not best pangaea's infantry, their arablests would not outduel the 20 hp longbows, and their size 2 infantry would still be trampled by minotaurs. Arcos hoplites would still be far far superior, ulms units still would have trouble hitting vans.

They would not be overpowered, and still would not be in many people's top 10 races to play ME.

As the game progressed, their lack of magic would still be a major obstacle, and their level 1 priests, a handicap.

Re: Dud nations
 

That's a good point, Teraswaerto. If a nation is restricted for no good reason other than theme, then it also restricts the different ways it can be played, and in the end makes it a less viable nation. Just because you're a Niefel Jarl doesn't mean you can't empower levels of fire magic and start casting fireballs. It may not be a good idea, 99% of the time, but it's possible, it's there.

Re: Dud nations
 

I would actually like to see ulm, at around construction 7, get a cannon, that could fire at a decent range and not so great accuracy, but would have a substantial physical impact to anyone in the aoe range.

The cannon would have a map movement of 1, and a battle movement of zero. Meaning if you retreated, you lose the cannons. I also think it would take a unit like the siege engineer to operate it, and if he was killed, the cannon could not be fired on moved from the province it was in.

cannons would be most devastating in castle defense. But they would have ammo of only 6 per battle, and the number of cannons one could use would be limited by the siege engineers you had. In other words if you had 10 cannon, but 3 siege engineers, you would only have 3 cannons in use for that battle.

maybe the siege engineers would also have to be summoned, and have a fairly high gem cost(20).

Re: Dud nations
 

I really think cannons would be a very bad idea.

There's a ton of technology out there that doesn't require gunpowder, and I think that should be drawn upon, and guns avoided, hands down.

It would just hurt the game, in the end.

Re: Dud nations
 

catapult? ballista?

Re: Dud nations
 

catapult, torsion-catapult, ballista, mangonel, trebuchet, scorpion, the list goes on! Infact, you can have two lists, A: battlefield artillery, and B: seige artillery.

Then you can start adding flamethrower weapons, anti-personnel shot (diseased cows, grape-shot, exploding ceramic greek-fire grenades, etc.), and various defensive works.

I've written some fun little articles on the idea-so far nobody seems interested, and nothing's come from them, but it would be nice to see them appear.

Re: Dud nations
 

I really would like to see a death ritual spell that diseases a fortress under siege.

Jazzepi

Re: Dud nations
 

How about "Flaming Pigs"?
Apparently there is no documented proof that it was ever used but the idea of greasing live pigs and setting them afire just before catapulting them into the castle has stayed with me. The idea of trying to catch the fast little fireball as it runs thru the castle setting fires.

Re: Dud nations
 

Amos did some really nice drawings of Trebuchet - and I agree, Ulm should be able to recruit those. They have a giant siege bonus and a large area of effect attack that fires every third turn and causes fear in an even larger area (can you do that or does the area of #secondaryeffectalways have to match?).

The flaming pig ammo is what you get when you cast flaming arrows http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I would be averse to tossing in some cannon and arquebus, but they should show up in the late era, if at all - and they should be seriously limited, as in WFB. The only nation that might conceivably get them in the middle era would be T'ien Ch'i.

Re: Dud nations
 

Only if I get to urinate on my castle to keep it from catching on fire.

Jazzepi

Re: Dud nations
 

I just thought of a great new name for MA Ulm-with the Mod:

The Black Company

Re: Dud nations
 

Wasn't that the name of an infamous group of Nazi troops in WW2? I might have it confused, but if it is I'd avoid that.

I suppose it's sort of a generic elite military unit name though.

Re: Dud nations
 

I don't think it would be very nice for the pig, but also, unless you fitted them with some kind of parachute, it wouldn't be very effective, since you'd basically just be sending the enemy ham on the hoof, as it were-since it's unlikely the pigs would survive the fall in good enough shape to make a run for it-pigs are mostly dense muscle, and their bones are rather brittle. The combination- coming down from an altitude of 60 feet or more-isn't pretty.
I'd just summon up a couple dozen tiny fire-elementals and set them loose. There must be *lots* of magical ammo people could come up with. How about fire-resistant flaming chickens?

Re: Dud nations
 

The Black Company was a famous mercenary troop in the books by Glen Cook. They had minor mages, but mainly relied on steel.