Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I do think we agree on most areas, and I don't see any reason why the balance of SP and MP need conflict. This thread has actually turned out a lot better than I expected as far as bringing up useful balance discussions. CB is built on input, there hasn't been a lot of it for Dom3 yet, but that's largely because people have still been exploring the base game.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

That is pretty much the philosophy of CB. The problem is the rather extreme numbers of type Ds, especially among recruitable troops. It can be extremely difficult to find thematic, balanced, and different solutions for the legions of them.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Cool. If CB is still a work in progress then I'm happy to stick with that and work on CBM versions of mod nations.

I just noticed I managed to seriously mess up the quoting up there. I'll fix that.

By the way I tested the little Bakemono at size 1 and they look just as good in battle if not better. I really think they should be size 1.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I totaly disagree these troops are exteremly useful for what their worth, when I play Nefilhiem I usaly rely on the nefil soldiers and unfronzen to do all my battles, they are however only desined to fight in cold provinces, they gain +1 to attack, Defence Strength and + even more protection for every cold in value in the province and their with that much cold in a province it makes your enermies encoumbered terribly, +3 for an average human, and then you add their chill to the equation and they are so fatigued that they practicaly lay down and die to a few nefil soldiers, and of core you only need a few of them maybe, five in a large army of other giants and they make a huge impact and if your still not convinced by that, actauly try a few stragies yourself and tell me how they keep to fail your expectations.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I completely agree with Juzza.

Also I never use the low attack ambidex axemen by themselves as some people seems to, because if you do they won't hit a thing. Instead I let the enemy fight themselves tired first with a small group of shield maidens whom are excellent at this. These troops will hardly kill anything armored with their low strength and their short sword, but they got excellent defense and wield a shield. After a some rounds I throw in the axes, and as the shield maidens now built up some fatigue on the enemy (10 = -1 to defense) my axemen will have a field day. As a bonus the shield maidens will rarely get hit by the throwing axes.
This tactic works quite well against high protection, high defense troops such as knights of this early age.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Er. I'm just gonna say it. I see an awful lot of people saying an awful lot of units are useless or pointless or hopeless or should be removed, and frankly, these comments are mostly showing that the posters just haven't thought of what these units are good for.

Remove the scout from Marignon because they have a (cough, much more expensive, and far less diplomatic) spy? No!

Pale Ones useless and horrible because they have one eye and therefore base attack skill of 8? Uh, fine, meanwhile they let you cheaply conquer the oceans and multiply your income, etc.

Flagellants useless? Remember that discussion about how ME Ulm is horrid because they have Morale 10... No, think again.

Ahem.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I don't see people saying 'dud' units should be removed - rather that they should be improved so they aren't useless. The claim that people just haven't found what the units are good for strikes me as pretty daft. There are several units and spells in dom3 that are simply bad.

True I said I thought the flaggies were awful, but admitted I hadn't given them much testing. It's possible that when I used them they were particularly unlucky with their afflictions (crippled, lost an arm or diseased if I remember correctly). I know they were garbage when I used them, which is why I brought them up in the thread. People have disagreed with me and I have changed my position - if many people find them useful I clearly need to give them another go. Which would be the point of this whole thread.

As for the scout / spy for marignon, it's not like I'm dead set against marignon having a scout. I just see it as somewhat weird that they'd need one when they have spies. Obviously it's going to weaken the nation by a whopping 0.0000005% not being able to build those scouts, but I think I could live with that. And /much more/ expensive?

As for Pale Ones I belive the main objection was that they turn up in Agartha PD where they are useless and are unthematically slaughtered in droves. They also make poor fighters underwater or not.

I think you need to cut down on your hyperbole a little. If you disagree you can do it in a constructive non snarky non eyerolling way.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

They're flaggelants, they hurt themselves for religious purification/proof of faith/penance/whatever. Seems logic that a good bit of them cant fight as well as unhurt soldiers.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I don't think they were into lopping their own arms and legs off, but ok I can see the reasoning.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

They got infected and were forced to amputate http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Some people will only be happy with a strategy game that involves perfectly matched pieces that are a different color. Like playing Chess. Nothing wrong with such games. They are the true test of strategy-vs-strategy. They also tend to want chess-board maps with nothing random which might cause a game to be won by luck. This is an extreme group and can be supported by maps and mods. (hmmm mods that create a dozen duplicates of Ulm so the Ulmers can play against other Ulmers. One mod for each nation...)

Of course there is also the other extreme. Those who prefer random and chaos. The game is to best handle the things thrown at you. Also supportable by maps and mods (one day I will update Leif's Dom2 mod that changes one randomly chosen stat on every unit in the game so that you have to rethink your strategy each time you play with it. And recreate my chaotic randomized maps). Yes Im in the chaotic group.

OF course, MOST players are someplace in between and seem to be having a great time with the game. I will continue to suggest chaos and random in the beta-test group. And we have our representatives in this thread who will continue to post there in the name of balance and equalizing.
And the poor devs will continue to watch us go back and forth. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Gandalf Parker

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

What's chaotic about units so bad they'll always punish you for using them?

I'm not into uber-balance. I don't even play MP. I like variety and if certain units are just bad that cuts down the variety, even in SP. It also weakens the AI, since it can't tell a good buy from a bad one.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

That is a very good post, Gandalf. I'm entirely with you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Even some people who play chess think every side having the same exact start is dull.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess960

Jazzepi

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I think that's a pretty false dichotomy. As Sombre points out, the goal of balancing (at least as far as I'm concerned) is more variety, thus in a sense more chaos. As far as the random element, personally I can't stand chess very because of the lack of any randomness. I'm the last one that will complain about too much randomness in a game, as long as your actions still have some impact, it's all in good fun.

What I'm getting at here is there two kind of balance, what's out of your hands and what is under your control. I don't mind things being 'unbalanced' by being screwed by a random event early or playing on a crazy map, what I can't bring myself to do is to buy obviously inferior troops. In a way, balancing is bridging the gap between the hardcore players and those that players that are just along for the ride. It helps the players that want to try all the options not be so disadvantaged, and opens up all kinds of new strategies for hardcore players to work with.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Most of the obviously inferior troops that get fixed by peoples mods are units that I enjoy playing with quite abit. Some are very RPG and having them non-inferior would be non-thematic. They are meant to be crappy swarmers. I also dont tend to play with a spreadhseet in my head comparing single points of hp or armor or defense with the unit next to it. To me, knowing exactly which unit is the best choice making the others "duds" is akin to a cheat sheet.

If you want to twiddle-diddle every point of every unit then feel free to (There is a mod for that?). But it seems to me as if it would be a never-ending project which is like a pendulum swinging back and forth until it finally ends up coming to a complete stop in the middle. Chess pieces.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Well, if you are arguing some units should not be worth buying for thematic reasons, there's not much I can say to that. Because I can't think of any units that would fall into that category, militia are supposed to suck but they can also be thematically made much cheaper than other troops, light cavalry may suck but thematically/historically they have their uses even if it's hard to model in dominions.

In any case, I hardly meticulously compare every units stats while playing a game, it's 90% just a sort of intuition based on past games. The only place that really comes into play at all is when I have a number of very similar national troops, and really the only difference at all is one or two points of defense.

And you can balance dominions for the next century but I doubt you will come up with anything resembling chess by tweaking units stats. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Your use of the Chess metaphor is totally misled.

Balancing is used to provide a cost-effective use for every unit, not make every unit the same. This does not mean that every unit has the same value compared to each other or that all units will have common (rather than niche) roles.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Im well aware of its pros and cons. Ive been admining online multiplayer games for decades and have continually fought the battles of balance by additon vs balance by subtraction and other admin headaches. But balancing CAN be carried to an extreme (therefore nearing chess). I only jump in if there is the appearance of "our way is the way" or use of opinions as facts such as "duds" without defining the game style that makes them duds.

If you are talking about balancing the units for MP play (not just blitz small map mp play) and it doesnt detract from the other aspects of the game, then Im all for it. I will concede that you guys are the best to debate it.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Sombre, I could spend all day debunking the avalanche of ill-considered exaggerated opinions in these threads about various units and nations being "duds", but I'd rather not waste that much of my time, particularly when people (I don't mean you specifically) don't even get what's spelled out. My tone may have distracted you from what I was saying, but I did include reasons you seem to have either missed or didn't appreciate about how Flagellants (even cripples), Marignon Scouts, and Pale Ones all have very good uses and reasons for being the way they are (except Pale Ones being misplaced in militia, which I agreed with at least once in its own thread).

PvK

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

There's that blitz map thing again!

If playing with the maps that the game comes with is to be catagorized in some kind of arbitrary (and slightly demeaning) manner i have to wonder who is playing the game that they want to play, and who is playing the game that everyone else is playing.

I really don't have a problem with you Gandalf, or your giant bizarro world maps. But please don't project these preferences unto the entire community as if they were anything more than an individual choice reflecting a very small part of the community.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

The Siren is a dud unit because the land form has little specks of black near the edges of the unit graphic. This needs to be addressed and fixed asap!

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I think Foodstamp summarizes my feelings for this "discussion" quite well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

So please, everyone - just chill. If anyone wants more game balance you are free to mod the game as you wish and you know it.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Oh I know that Im one extreme. But by blitz map Im talking about games with something like 10 provinces per player and 3-5 people in the game. Obviously thats meant to be a fast game and highly effects everything from what does or doesnt work as strategy, to what does or doesnt make efficent use of gold/resources in buying units, etc etc. If thats what people mostly play then they should mention that when they talking "balance". In a game where the range of map size is 100-1500 then I dont think 100 needs to define the game. (of course neither should 1500)

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I think you should look at how many provinces Orania or Glory of the Gods (multiplayer) has and use that as maximum baseline. 1500 is not something that is used at all as far as I know. Faerun large has 424 and it is really huge for multiplayer, and even there Helheim is killer and Marverni get's killed.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

424 divided by 21 players is 20 provinces. The game has 3 ratings of small, medium, and large. It rates that as a "large" map. Not "really huge" for multiplayer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Usually 1000 is the game where exploration and finding a path to another nation makes it a different style game. It still amounts to about 10 provinces to the next nation but its 10 in a straight line.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

That is certainly true... what I had an objection to was just the implication that A. randomness and balance where somehow opposed to each other and B. that trying to even the cost vs usefulness of options can be compared with making it 'chesslike'.

That scale somehow magically balances also seems a bit of a fallacy. 250 infantry beat 100 light cavalry just the same as 25 infantry beat 10 light cavalry. The only major impact of really large maps balance wise is that eventually your options plateau as you run out of research to do. This situation makes balance even more necessary as you have one fewer way to 'niche' options.

What I really have hard time understanding is the outlook that balance somehow restricts options. If someone does not particularly care if one option is much weaker or stronger than another one, or the specifics of stats/costs, then changing them should have no impact whatsoever on how they can play the game.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Are there MP games played on 1000+ province maps? Where could I find one?

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Sorry, Gandalf, but I disagree with what you're saying, pretty much entirely.

Variety is a wonderful thing, and it should be pretty obvious to any regular on these boards that I'm all for a huge diversity and variety in my choices, as to how I want to play any given game.
Bad units for the sake of variety and "role-playing" is fun, hoburgs are in the game for a reason, and I'm all for that too, but what we're discussing here is the complete mirror opposite, "variety for the sake of bad units".

Some units currently in the game are flawed-some deeply-and should be fixed, like a broken leg should be fixed. That's the process that leads to a well-balanced game. It takes time, and a surgeon's willingness to cut, but you potentially end up with a clean, stronger heal.

That doesn't mean you cut off the leg or get rid of the unit, it just means you do what's necessary to fix problems in such a way that they improve the health of the body itself-in this case, the body of the game.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

They take quite awhile. Ive run 5. One is still running.
Ive had people grab some of my large maps to run games on.

I will eventually start another one but at the moment Im trying to iron out how to do a mega game (1500 provinces and all 76 nations)

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I really would like to participate in a mega game! Please start one for us Gandalf. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

*shudders at the thought of the micromanagement needed for such an massive late-game*

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I expect at those province numbers micro is no longer possible, or the turn timer is one turn per week or something. Learning to manage time would be very important.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I figured on the fast-game folks enjoying the early game. Its only 20 provinces per player if all of the nation slots are filled, 25 per if the known nations are filled (21+21+18 I think). Then when they start feeling the drag they might turn their nations over to the MM folks by arranging a replacement or asking for subs. Then later in the game if their nation got knocked down they might ask back into it when it has massive research.

Here is the mod if you want to try it solo. Playing ea Ulm against ma Ulm and la Ulm is fun also.
http://www.dom3minions.com/RandomMaps/SingleAge.zip

The scores.html would look something like this
http://www.dom3minions.com/games/PvK...ia/scores.html
altho I have made improvements such as naming the nations with their age so you can tell early Ulm from late Ulm, and giving the empty slots at the end some generic names.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Map scale has at least two other effects. 1.) Capital-only units become a smaller proportion of your forces. 2.) Map movement (including M/F/S/W Survival) becomes more of a factor in successful force concentration. Air/Astral magic probably becomes more important, too, for paratrooping.

I only play SP, and I haven't ever actually played a game all the way to completion on a 250-province map, but scaleability is always at the back of my mind. I simply don't have any fun with a nation whose best mages are all capitol-only. The pending nerf to Svartalfs has completely turned me off Helheim, for instance. On the Silent Seas map, though, it wouldn't matter.

-Max

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Those are valid points, but very little of balanceing that gets done (at least with CB) changes those things.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

You have Serpent Cataphracts listed as one of the extreme 'bite me's. I don't find them that bad.If you compare them to the independant knight, the knight has an extra point of defense and attack, but the Serpent Cataphract is tougher and ,because it turns into a regular lizard after, you have to kill it twice. The knight due to the lance has a greater damage potential for the first strike, but the Serpent Cataphract has slightly higher damage for all strikes after that, and they have lower encumbance. But then it is true that knights are cheaper, and they are faster.

And themetically, Pythium is supposed to have lower calibre calvary then other nations. Their strength is their infantry. Still the Serpent Cataphracts are only slightly inferior, and if you are unable to mass up independent knights, I find your army is better with them then without them. There is just times when you need faster troops.

If I was going to balance them I would simply give them one thing, swamp survival. (and i would consider a small poison resistance) I wouldn't want to change either their cost, or their stats, since the stats do seem to match there description. But swamp survial almost seems like something they should have, and would be enough to give them more of a use.

QM, I am curious on your take on it.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Well, the problem is knights themeslves are somewhat marginal units. A huge investment that goes down the tubes very easy with battle magic. The lance is pretty much thier saving grace (much better than just plain higher damage, since they can actually threaten thugs/weak SCs). So an even more expensive unit with no lance has some real problems. Swamp survival seems reasonably thematic, but by itself doesn't begin to make up for thier cost.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Good point. Knights do tend to get targeted with all the spells. And it is hard to balance that. Technically it should be much harder to hit a fast moving knight with a lightning bolt, then a slow moving heavy infantry, but that isn't built into the game.

Still, knowing this it would be very hard for me not to build Serpent Cataphracts as Pythium, because the game is so much more fun with them.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

In CB the cost of the Serpent Cataphracts is dropped considerably and I find they're useful but not overpowered. Before I would never have built many of them - they could be made slightly more interesting with swamp survival and a bit of poisen res though. Would make them more usable alongside hydras.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Lowering the price is the only thing that can be done with the current tools that are available, I suppose. But thematicly the prices of the units in the base game do seem right. If you balance the amount of resources you spend each round amoung calvary and infantry, the amount of calvary you get compared to the infantry does seem right. It is the game mechanics that are wrong. If the game was able to make better use of movement, and 'attack rear most enemies' worked better so many units in the game would be balanced. As is, the CB mod is the best way to balance it.

Anyway, what brought this is up is I am currently in a multiplayer game where I am building a lot of Cataphracts. I should probably build less of them, but then I would be building almost only one type of unit, and dang it!, that just isn't as much fun.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Maybe you should play CB multiplayer - that way you'd get a better deal on the serpents.

Also just because people say the serpents are bad doesn't mean it's certainyly true. If you use them heavily in a MP game you might come to a different conclusion. Of course I think you're more likely to see that you can't field enough of them because of the cost and that they get splattered by magic just as easily as cheaper troops.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I would like to play CB multiplayer. But the problem is too many people are opposed to the mod, and there are very few CB multiplayer games.

And I agree about the assesment about the unit. If I was facing them, i would certainly take advantage of the fact there were size 3 to wipe them out with spells. But still I will try to make use of them. When used with Hydras they are the national unit with the most chance of avoiding the Hydras posion, due to their faster speed and chance of getting behind the enemy.I just have to keep them out of the way of magic.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

I think the problem with the CB mod is that a lot of people-including myself, I have to admit-felt that it was premature. It didn't come out long before the game itself came out, and the things it did, noone had time to figure out whether or not they were good ideas, necessary, or balanced.

Also, I'm not sure what exactly the CB mod does and doesn't do? I haven't read the posts on it in a while, and when I did, the ideas presented, I felt, made the game different, rather than balancing it out.

I'm open-minded towards the concept and, atleast in theory, I'd be willing to help, but I definitely don't have any real handle on it, and I'm a little wary of downloading it without knowing the exact changes and the exact reason why things were changed.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Well there's a list of the exact changes in the mod-zip.

Morkilus also wrote a short guide explaining the rationale behind it.

I was a bit wary of it at first and I don't know it well enough to talk about how much better or worse it is, but I can see that's it's fixed a lot of things that bother me about the game, so I use it. For instance it makes light cavalry more useful and that means the AI isn't just throwing money down the drain when it uses them.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

That's true on the forums, but on the dominions IRC channel CB is actually used more than base. And I don't think there are a whole lot of people opposed to the mod, just a couple of them and a lot of people going with the flow/not knowing much about it.

I think I did jump the gun a bit by releasing some CB so soon after game release, I didn't account for the big difference between the dom2 community and the dom3 one. The veteran dom2 players that stuck with the game long enough to try/get used to CB only made up a tiny fraction of the sudden masses of people.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Well, it really isn't your fault. I mean this game probably has atleast 4 times as many hardcore players as Dom2 did, and that's just a guess off the top of my head. I imagine that the "core" people playing it are significantly different too. More fractious-which can be a good thing, since the friction generates creativity. I honestly think it's that friction that has resulted in so many good mods.
Eventually, though, that friction is going to force a desire for a great many changes in how the game works and how it's balanced. As long as the CB mod keeps evolving, itself, and keeps in touch with what people want and what they want left alone, then eventually-maybe a year-it'll be a major player, where mods are concerned.

That's my opinion, which is one of the reasons I'm interested in helping out with it. As soon as I figure out the best way to do that-in a way I feel will be true to my own ideals for the game-then I'll offer my services, for what they're worth.

Right now, I'm just trying to get my own mods into the final stages, so I can show them off http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I'm really going to try to get the one completed enough this weekend that I can atleast establish a thread for it, since I've got 4 days off, almost in a row.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

Keep in mind that QM had already played Dom3 for about a year before it was released as part of the beta team.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

This made me laugh. I have been to the IRC channel and wonder if this is really how you see it. When I was there there were people wanting a plain game but none started. On the other hand there was also people wanting a CB mod game but it was only the guy who made the mod. One or two other people would agree to play it but no one else requested it (and that game didnt start also).

Most of the conversation was a turn off also. Too much like this thread. Nitpicky perfect or crap designations of every little thing which did nothing but trash the game. I think we need a new IRC channel.

Re: Dud units / monsters / summons
 

You don't like the thread feel free to just move along.