Re: MA Agartha, or Yet another thread fishing for
 

Well, one last post and then I'll restrain myself from bumping it again.

Is it possible to succeed as Agartha without a decent bless?

Re: MA Agartha, or Yet another thread fishing for
 

I don't think MA Agartha has troops worth blessing much.

As to mages and their uses, wait one week and I can discuss the strategy I came up with the nation design this thread was initialized for. Now is really not the time. But I hope someone else can contribute there. Or if you're in a hurry PM me.

Re: MA Agartha, or Yet another thread fishing for
 

Dominion 9, not 8, gives awe +0.

Yes it is possible to play MA agartha without a bless. They have nice national summons and decent battlemagic and, while probably the weakest of its 3 ages, they can hold their own fairly well.

Re: MA Agartha, or Yet another thread fishing for
 

... I seriously think they might be one of the weaker/weakest MA nations around actually.

Attempt at a MA Agartha guide
 

I'm certainly not convinced they're the strongest.

And I'm no expert either... But in the spirit of the thing, I'll try writing a little guide. Usually doing something like that helps me get better too. So, I'm open to criticism and revisions, and contributions.

I'll be blatantly stealing the format used by RamsHead- though I'm unfortunately unable to steal his talent.

A Guide to MA Agartha, Golem Cult

Agartha is a nation of cave dwellers, a declining civilization. Think Avernum, Ultima Underworld, Arx Fatalis. Agartha is a rather straightforward and simple to use race, without the complexities of many other factions. However, despite this simplicity, they can be challenging to use effectively. With a starting income of 5 earth gems, but few summons until enchantment 3 and some research issues they can start equipping commanders (thugs) immediately. All your units have some darkvision, and you have access to amphibious troops.

Troops of the Golem Cult

[blatant plagiarism]
While national troops by and large become obsolete by the late game, having a solid understanding of a nation�s forces is necessary for a strong early game. A powerful early game position will often translate into a powerful late game position.
[/blatant plagiarism]

The strength of the Golem Cult lies in its national summons and mages. None of your mundane troops scream - I'll win the game. Unfortunately, you need 200 research points before you access your first national summon. If you recruited only golem crafters, you would be pushing up against the end of your first year before they were available. Earth Drakes are available earlier, but they have even worse odds at landing a blow than your Ancient Ones.

Your options are rather limited, unexceptional, but quite solid. Your gold costs aren't that high (thanks to low skill), but your resource costs are very high. At least you're thoroughly equipped. No naked warriors or helmless headwounds here. And everybody has a shield.

Your human infantry are pretty much the definition of average. Attack, defense, morale- everything about them is standard. No advantage to be gained by these troops, but no glaring vulnerabilities, either. Though, they all have 50% darkvision. Which, unfortunately, will only matter if you have access to Death 4 or another empire, such as Ermor, tries to cast Utter Darkness. Fortunately, it is possible to get the battlefield spell Darkness with a good dose of luck or a little planning. Oh.. and they all wield short swords.

Your non-human troops are less skilled than the humans, but they have a little more strength and magic resistance, a lot more hitpoints, and less encumbrance than many medium infantry. On top of that, they have 100% dark vision, are amphibious, have a siege bonus, and unfortunately cold-blooded. Did I forget to mention they don't need to eat? And, they don't wield short swords, thank god (You're welcome).

Units

Light Infantry (10/10)
Entirely unexceptional, it will be the foundation of your expansion forces. Unlike most light infantry, they don't come with javelins. They are equipped with short swords, giving them a damage of 15/5 (zero prot/10 prot), practically no repel, and making them quite impotent against Heavy Infantry. If you're facing high prot troops, leave them behind. They aren't cheap enough to be chaff. They can be used effectively elsewhere. They do have a parry value of 4, though. If I'm filling in the formulas properly, they typically have only a 18% chance of being hit by arrows at the start of a battle. Not bad. You can probably use them against light infantry and archer independents without any worry.

Medium Infantry (10/22)
Twice as expensive and what do you get? Well, certainly not higher attack values. But they cost no more upkeep, either. They don't get a better weapon, and they lose some speed, too. But on top of the obvious protection bonus, they get a Kite Shield with a parry value of six, and a protection value of 18. Shield hits can be as much as 16% more likely or as little as 2%. But that's not too important. Where the shield really shines is in protection from missiles. Remember, parry values count double. So,in most situations hits depend on DRN + 6 versus DRN + 14. According to the probabilities chart on page 5, these guys have only a 6% chance of taking damage from missiles. These are excellent missile catchers.

Heavy Infantry (10/27)
Heavy Infantry aren't that much better than medium, but than they don't cost much more, either. They don't gain any additional damage, lose a little speed, are a little easier to hit and tire a little earlier. What they do gain is 3 protection. They are an excellent choice for close combat.. but... with only ten hitpoints, do not bring them to bear against large strong units like giants. Light and regular are better choices. But against your typical size two humanoids and skelly spam, they have a lot more staying power. Given the high resource cost/low numbers, it's not hard to imagine an AoE 1 spell such as Iron Warriors making a difference at earth 2. With an ancient oracle, you can throw in Marble Warriors and Legions of Steel to bring them up to 22 protection, even without boosters or gems.

Tips for your human infantry:
Forced to fight high protection troops with your dinky weapons? Equip an oracle with earth boots and a spare gem and cast Weapons of Sharpness (Const 7). Follow with a Strength of Giants (Ench 3).
Keep in mind that you're using short swords, with a range of 1. This means almost everyone can repel your attacks.
Fighting large units? Go light or regular infantry, not heavy.

Pale One Soldier (10/20)
Size three, 80% more hitpoints, 20% more strength. Unfortunately for you, their two extra points of strength are negated by the fact they're wielding spears, which only do three points of damage, compared to a short sword's 5. The spear comes in handy occasionally, but with an attack skill of only 8, consider yourself lucky if you stop a third of all melee attacks. You won't. Despite all this, and the lower attack score, you might find Pale One Soldiers hitting more often than your human infantry. How is this possible? (and I haven't done all the necessary math to prove this)

Simple. Pit high attack enemies with a weapon range of two against human infantry with a weapon range of 1. The enemy will have a chance to repel virtually every attack, barring morale check. So, thats one attack roll to hit, another to avoid being hit, and a morale check to see if you carry through. Three rolls for one blow.
Pit those same high attack enemies against a Pale One, and while the Pale One won't dodge much, he'll be able to attack requiring only one roll, a single attack roll, instead of those three before.

Despite this, there are good reasons not to use Pale One Soldiers. And thats' the buckler with a parry of two.. The standard missile hit roll is DRN +6 versus 2 + DRN +4. In other words, instead of 18% or 6%, they'll be be hit 46% of the time. In addition, only two fit into a square, instead of three regular humans. Meaning that your pale ones are even more likely to end up as pincushions. If you must bring your pale one soldiers to an archery battle, they'll survive much longer stuck behind some infantry.

However, if you aren't worrying about archers, these guys aren't a bad choice at all. Even in less than optimal circumstances they are worth considering for three additional reasons. Dark Vision. No need to eat. Siege bonus (2).Unfortunately, they aren't better at defending. But these guys are an excellent choice when you wish to besiege a castle. One of these guys is as effective as 3 medium infantry (30,66), and as effective as 3 light infantry (30,30). Not to mention they won't starve when bringing down a swampy fortress.

Ancient One (40, 19)
Now we're getting expensive. But we're also getting sacred.
Let's take sieging first. Say five of these guys, at 18 strength. That's 3 siege damage done before you take into account siege bonus (5). Just five of these does 40 points of fortification damage. Five of these? 200 Gold. 40 light infantry? 400 gold. If you've been buying five a turn for eight turns, you can bring 40 to a siege. Bit of an investment? Yes. Scarce? Yes. But 320 points of reduction strength are hard to argue with.

They're better in just about every way compared to Pale Soldiers, even if you don't factor in bless potential. While unfortunately, you can only fit one to a square, and all the missile fire landing there will target one figure, it does give a small advantage in dodging the missile (Size in square = 4 instead of 6. Leading to a 30% chance of being hit, but a 100% of being targeted, instead of a Pale One's 46 and 50 respective chances.

On the plus side, they're a decent counter to tramplers. They're too large to be bothered by size four tramplers, which are unfortunately rare in the middle age, excepting Pangaea, R'lyeh, Vanheim, and elemental summons. On the plus side, with forty hitpoints, they have little trouble surviving a trample and have a decent chance of hitting and panicking an elephant.

Commanders:

It's worth noting that all but two commanders can be built outside of the capital. It's also worth noting that every mage requires a lab and temple to recruit. Add on the cost of a fort, and this gets pricy. Keep an eye out for rare magical indies that require only a lab. If you happen to find a library, even better.

All your mages are sacred, and priests, and at risk of old age. And since they're sacred, they're fairly cost efficent, too. And not a single one has precision over 8.

Military leaders:

Agarthan Scout (20/3) - Nothing special, they do come with darkvision.

Cave Captain (30/22) - A slightly better form of medium Infantry, they come with a surprising 80 leadership. For 30 gold. Too bad you'll have trouble massing that many. But at least it lets you recruit twice as many units without having to spend a turn not recruiting a mage. If you're going to equip him- most likely because you have more earth gems than you know what to do with- I highly recommend a Sword of Sharpness. Better attack, defense, damage, aromor piercing, and a reasonable length to avoid repels. Boots of Strength. Theres a couple other helpful items, but I'd rather kit out an Ancient Lord.

Pale One Captain (30,20) - A slightly better form of Pale One Soldiers. With less leadership, you'll only recruit him to lead amphibious assaults. Which may be more often than you'd imagine. If you can't sneak past enemy lines, than go around. Force them to defend at more than one point. There are a variety of ways these guys can be improved, but most important would be a real shield (Black Steel for 8/9 parry - remember, counts double in missile combat). For some meaningless fun, recruit a bunch and fit them all with Midget Mashers and Boots of the Behemoth. Watch and laugh as, no longer carrying shields, they die instantly to a barrage of arrows. No arrows, then you have a bunch of size three tramplers dealing double damage in melee.

Ancient Lord (90, 21)
This guy is Sacred, Capital only, and size 4. Wouldn't make a bad prophet (attack and defense bonus? Sign me up)or Death Match champion. There are some important equipment changes here. First, the Battleaxe instead of the spear is a length three weapon. It also appears to be two handed. This means you have no shield, and are amazingly vulnerable to arrows. How you deal with this is up to you. Protect with armor, shield, or just get yourself a Midget Masher and take your chances. A two-handed sword of sharpness doesn't help against arrows, but offers some rather nice attack and defense + AP bonuses right off the bat.

Mage-Priests

Re: Attempt at a MA Agartha guide
 

Lazy_Perfectionist, very nice, you gave me some food for thought. However, several remarks if I may.

As you note, the regular troops won't cut it mid to late game. Therefore I think you shouldn't advice on using Weapons of Sharpness when there are (almost) viable alternatives on research levels way lower. Namely, Rust Mist and Destruction against high-prot troops and Earth Meld against high-def troops, and Magma Bolts for a good trashing after that. All low research and castable by Earth Readers who are recruitable from any castle unlike the Oracles. I feel that Agarthan troops absolutely scream for battle mages accompanying them, unlike many other nations who can manage with mundane means. Note the Earth Readers' average leadership (45) which is quite uncommon to mages usable in a fight. But that's more matter of a magic section, not troops.

Also, I think you've ignored the Pale Ones' size 3 in the melee part, it means they get only 2 attacks against a block full of human-sized opponents who attack thrice. With their poor att and def, I think that equals a world of hurt.

Re: Attempt at a MA Agartha guide
 

Thanks for the feedback. I'll try to integrate it once I manage to bull my way through and finish up. You've given me food for thought. I haven't had a clue yet w/regards to battle-spells except that I can afford to spam earth elementals and that all my mages are nearsighted.

A preview of things to come...

As a result of my experiment with suiciding my Pretender (Twiceborn Crone), I've experimented with Wight Mages a bit.

First, you can cast Twice Born with 2 death. Either you empower an oracle, get lucky (.10x.25 = 2.5%) with a random death pick (happened with my second Oracle), get lucky with independent or random necromancers (it happens with death 3, luck 3) or mercenaries. The simplest solution is to have a pretender with two points of death magic, and forge a Skull Staff.

Give the staff to an oracle, cast twice born, and pass it along. If your Oracle dies in combat or starts feeling the ill effects of old age (and you suicide him) you get yourself a wight mage. It's not entirely a trade for the better- you do get certain vulnerabilities, lose your ability to go underwater, lose half your hitpoints, some leadership, generally get a wound, and lose some MR. Most importantly, your former oracle is no longer sacred.

Now that I've gotten the bad out of the way, you get a second life, of course, cold immunity, poison immunity, certain undead immunities, chill(3). You lose old age, and your precision jumps from 7 (or worse) to 10. Throw in an eye of aiming, and you have a mage who can cast spells without deviation to a range of 26 squares. Two out of three times I've done this (and taken note) I've gained one free level of death magic. You go from 6 encumbrance to zero. You lose that pesky cold-blooded, you keep your magic (including holy three - though you don't get any undead holy spells), and your mage goes from moving only 1 province a strategic turn to three. And last, you get to haul around around 100 undead, 70 up from the default 30. It is a real pity I can't do this with my crafters.

Re: Attempt at a MA Agartha guide
 

Near-sightedness just means mages need to be put up front. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Earth Meld has a precision bonus, so that helps a bit.

BTW, now that I noticed those updates you made to your previous posts, some comments. (It might be better to have new sections in new posts if you want people to read and comment them, as every contribution appears as an unread message...)

Two of the commanders are capital-only, not one: Ancient Lord and Oracle. The big fat guys are too comfy at home...

Boots of Behemoth + Midget Masher = Bad. If you trample, you don't attack. If you don't trample, you're up against enemies your size or larger and MM does no good. And as I noted earlier, Earth Readers have leadership comparable to indy leaders, so if you're not in danger of Seeking Arrows they are viable troop leaders.

The thing with twiceborn is wicked, by the way. Got to try it. Strategic move of 3 is real benefit to Agartha with such lazy mages.

Re: Attempt at a MA Agartha guide
 

You should give your guide an own thread, having it appear at the end (or later on middle) of this thread does it no justice.

Re: Attempt at a MA Agartha guide
 

Indeed, a separate thread would be best. Would get people to read it, too...

Re: Attempt at a MA Agartha guide
 

Well... EvilHomer... I might as well finish it first.

Atul: Fixed. On moving mages up: I guess, thanks to infantry being such a great arrow catcher, I really don't get as much a benefit from moving them to the back. I'm just to used to playing as Ctis, and their shieldless Elite Warriors, and giving my Sauromancers time to skelly spam.

Other peeps... I added to my post above. My Pretender title is
[booming voice]
HE WHO ALWAYS EDITS
[/booming voice]

Like the thing with Twiceborn, Atul? Check out this thread and my 'Suicide Crone'. I thought it up because I love having an early pretender to get a jumpstart on research, but I often have to spend to much time asleep due to my inability to resist a shiny new chassis like a Ghost King or Draikana. The more complicated they are, the more they interest me. Which means I tend to avoid affordable leaders like Wyrms or whatnot. This allowed me to complicate my Pretender without spending more points.

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...o=&fpart=3

Shovah, with regards to Earth 9 only helping the mages, what about the +4 protection? With all the other spells on hand, my protection could get rather obscene. Chew on that, Ulm!

THE GREAT REVISIONIST STRIKES AGAIN!
So... I'll keep in mind that point about Midget and Trample not playing nicely together.

Re: Attempt at a MA Agartha guide
 

Another question here.

What actually counts as golem, in terms of the golem cult. Is it any inanimate magical being. Are mechanical men,and clay men included?

Re: Attempt at a MA Agartha guide
 

Good question, Sir Dr D. I'm going to see if I can find that out in the next hour. I have to settle on a commander first, though. But I have to sacrifice... Just can't have everything, no matter how hard I try.

What I want is an awake (out of 350 points then) Ghost King (120), five death (80), 4 astral (92), dominion 8 (147), Turmoil 1, Sloth 1, Heat 1, Growth zero, Luck 1, Magic 3 (sum -40). What do I sacrifice? What do I keep?

My goal, crazy and risky and mismatched as it is, is a stealthy Pretender able to cast Darkness (must), Utterdark would be nice (greedy), hence the 5 d. Is it possible to go as low as 3? I hope to be able to get the Rings of Sorcery, and thus Wizardry (Greedy). I also want to be able to cast luck on my entire army of shades and ghosts and spectres (must- but can I do it w/o communion and w/o a high astral reducing fatigue? Does me no good to have an unconscious pretender. But with invig- wait, don't have that, no earth.)

So yeah, I stuck my hand in the cookie jar, grabbed to many, and can't get out of the design screen again. What do I do? Give me some tough love please?

I've been working on my mage-priest section in my downtime at work. Unfortunately, I left the text file there. Otherwise I'd be finishing and then posting it now.

I will drop this tidbit. Don't underestimate Earth Readers. They may seem underwhelming at E, but with barely any work they can be casting E4. Sure, they may fall unconscious, but they'll live. Or, depending on who won that debate, they'll die. But they're expendable. Just have, say, four Earth Boots in your lab, and four earth readers in every fortress. Then, when a fortress comes under siege, equip those Earth Readers with those boots, script earth power spell, and just enough gems to enable casting, but not enough to eliminate fatigue. Broke your siege? Then send those boots back. Or forge four more. You probably could afford it.

ERR.. I wish I hadn't left my notes and manual. But what happens happens.

Edit: Oh well, I settled for Astral 3, Death 4, Dominion 7, Sloth 1, Turmoil 1, Heat 1, Death 1, Luck 1, Magic 3. I'll probably come up with something better soon, but none of my penalties are too severe. I'll see which affects me most and least.

Re: Attempt at a MA Agartha guide
 

While death 3 starts afflicting my Golem Crafters by the end of the first year, death 1 means most or all of them live to see the start of the third year, and only 3 out 6 get diseased. 1 out of six is blind and diseased. So... not perfect, by any means, but a lot more workable than death 3. I'd never recommend taking more than one death scale, and only when you have to. But then, Death has never been about long-term staying power.

I can afford the dead mages because I have a magic scale to make all my young indies and earth readers more useful. I may be adjusting my start strat to not include more than a couple Golem Crafters- Death 2 may be plausible, but I doubt it.

Heat one scale will cost you, but again, affordably. I'd take it before death, since it benefits your Cold Blooded troops and bothers your infantry none.

Sloth and Turmoil? You can work around it with Agartha. Its doable. Whether you want to is up to you.

Luck, really isn't worth it. You really only NEED earth gems, since your Crafters won't do much in other spheres, barring some specific pre-game plans. There are a few particular artifacts of interest, but generally, you'll have to work to find a use for any gems that come in, and by the time you need them, you'll be able to search the sites via independents or a spare Golem Crafter. Now because I'm biased towards luck because I enjoy it more and hope to get a hero, I recommend getting luck one. Rationalizing it away, it helps deal with the turmoil, and keep things from going to hell. I don't see much use in going higher though, as I believe there are no heroes available for MA Agartha unless you get Worthy Hero mod. I recommend that in general, but here for Great Olm multiheroes (with stealth! and rather strong magic, earth and water). I'm going to try out the Epic heroes mod next.

What counts as Golem Cult?
 

I know Claymen get the bonus, so I suspect others do to. Undead in general don't get it either, but I swear I saw some cult bonus on my Ghost King and twiceborn crone-wight mage. I mean, it might be dominion... but even at Dominion Seven, I can't see how my Ghost King goes from 35 hitpoints to 84 (49 dominion bonus) unless I'm getting 140% extra hitpoints, not 70%. There have to be more exceptions, but I'm not certain what the pattern is. Skeletons don't get it.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

The reason E9 wont help your sacred summons is that they are wearing no armour(so wont get protection) and have no encumberance(dont need reinvigoration)

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

So you're saying the earth bless acts more like that armor boosting spell, and less like a stoneskin spell?

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

Earth bless is an armor boost, and does little to things with only natural armor.

BTW, when you say that Earth Readers can easily be upped to E4 you seem to be forgetting the really important WF magics. I mean, the world of Magma at your fingertips, no need to exhaust the Readers with Earth-only spells like Blade Wind.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

Magma eruption is a very nice spell. Use it now.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

Magma at your fingertips? Don't the Earth Readers have only EH??? Feel free to exhaust the Readers, and let your Golem Crafters use the WF magics.

Curse of Stones can help your troops hit the enemy, help your troops dodge blows, and occasionally give you a critical. Only 10 fatigue is necessary to start reducing defense. Throw in some Dispossessed Spirits (D1 Conj5 4 gems for 15) or Skeleton Spam, and you might even be able to make them fall asleep themselves.

And don't forget Magma Bolts aren't AP. Rust Mist is limited in that their armor isn't broken until blows are struck. And only at 50%. Destruction kicks in immediately, and only costs 10 fatigue more

(since the manual doesn't list gem costs for battlefield spells, is there a place I can check that information away from the game?)

Even if you don't spend additional gems, this can be used in a pinch to reduce the cost of spells such as Earth Meld, and Iron Warriors. And casting Earth Meld instead of Earth Grip? Nice. Even if you can only cast it twice - though with magic scales and all the methods of reducing fatigue you can probably go higher.

So, how do you decide between Destruction and Iron Bane? What's the difference? Constructs don't have armor, right, and won't be affected by Iron Bane? But they would be affected by Destruction, since they are a high prot unit? Why is it that Iron Bane is two research levels higher, despite having only a "When struck [...] 50% chance of becoming broken" and affecting friendlies?

Legions of Steel is only Construction 3, Strength of Giants Enchantment 3. Not overwhelming in themselves, but available early enough to help you put all that infantry to use after the early expansion stage, or possibly even during, since Enchant 3 is available in around eight turns even w/o a researching commander, magic scale, mercenary Sage, or random heroes/sites/etc. I did the math somewhere else, so that number isn't accurate, but close. My favorite game had two Libraries churning out sages withing a couple provinces of my capital. I had research out the wazoo. Blathering aside, I'll need to make my guide a little more condensed, and trim some of the fat. But as I was saying, +3 prot and +4 strength will help all your infantry overcome mundane forces, and the armor of other human infantry.

Honestly, Blade Wind was the last spell on my mind. Given my low precision and national summons, I often neglect Evocation much more than I should.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

Legions of steel and strength of giants are great, even more-so when combined with other buffs like weapons of sharpness(with strength of giants and weapons of sharpness you will rip through enemies)

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

Lazy_Perfectionist -
A battlefield spell costs 1 gem(or slave) per full 100 fatigue. So 1 gem for a 199 fatigue spell, two for a 200 fatigue spell. (it's at the start of the battlefield spells part in the manual).

Only units actually wearing armor are affected by armor destroying spells, strong skin or rock bodies aren't affected.

Destruction, alt4, 40 fatigue, affects 6 squares at range 25. Both friends and foes are affected, but the mage will try to aim it at large enemy groups. Destroys armor.

Iron bane, alt6, 100 fatigue and one earth gem, affects *everyone* in the battle. Makes armor break after a good hit. Sounds pretty good used with statues. Unless the statues kills anything with one hit. Only need one mage per battle for this one... not so with destruction.

Evocations - might be needed against super high def enemies.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

Mivayan- does that go down when you are over pathed?

I mean, if a spell normally costs 150 fatigue, and you have magic scale 3, and have one level in excess, do you still need gems?

Anyways.. onto my delayed and somewhat scattered mage-priest section- a final draft will be better organized.

I'll probably start a guide thread sometime next week.

Mage-Priests

Attendant of the Oracle (50,1) (L 10-0-0)
When you read the description of these guys, they come off as bootlickers, attending to every need of the Ancients, even going as far to wipe their asses for them. So, in the rare cases I do recruit these guys, that's what for. Leading 10 Ancient Ones into battle with a bless. But they're in no way superior to your standard independent priest. In fact, does anyone use them? I think they are there just in case your lab burns down.

Earth Reader (90, 1) (L 40-0-5) (EH no randoms)
They may seem rather boring with just one earth, but they are mage priests. As long as you are expecting company, you needn't fear the undead- or at least their skelly spam. Being sacred, they cost only 3 upkeep. I'd keep at least four researching in every fortress. Why every fortress, and not all in one spot? Simple. These guys transform into Earth 3 mages very quickly. Keep four boots of Earth in your laboratory. When you are going to break a siege, transfer them to your Earth Readers, script in earth power, and load in some earth gems. You can happily let them cast away at earth 3, give them a butload of gems and cast e4, or give them just enough gems to cast one e4 spell and fall unconscious/dead. They are your bottom-line mage. On top of this these guys don't start with old age. Their exact age is [insert number here] so while you need not worry about death by natural causes anytime soon, decay is [is not] a threat.

It's tough to choose between these guys and Golem Crafters early on. Golem Crafters ofter twice the research, but their advanced old age means they won't last more than a couple years, especially if you take any death scale. You'll have to keep on reinvesting. And besides, if your Earth Readers live long enough, they can get research bonuses. Your Golem Crafters never will. I'll probably settle with a few Golem Crafters to start me off quick followed by Earth Readers. Pulling some numbers out of my arse, say, a 3:1 ratio of ER to GC? I'll do the math later.

Golem Crafter (200,2) (L 40-0-20) (FWEEH no randoms)
This guy starts old. Get enough death scales, and he'll die young.
I don't have any idea why, but this guy starts out with a maul. Perhaps to beat the statues when they get out of line? Whatever. While you will be limited by your gem income, you can bootstrap yourself up to water/fire 3 much the same way, if you design your pretender with that in mind. But a lot less frequently. More on that later. These characters are useful both early and late in the game. They scale all the way into battle magic of earth 5 easy. Three if you want to save gems and not have your mage collapse in an unconscious heap. These guys are necessary for the majority of your National Summons. They have access to particular spells such as Magma Bolts that others are more familiar with. I'll revise\add my spell commentary as I get some more experience. Point is, this guy has more variety.
With Earth Boots, they can produce the Dwarven Hammer (15 earth gems) But so can the oracle. And you're likely to have 20 earth gems and Construction 3 before you have Oracles of the Ancients to spare on forging. [NOTE= Look into details of Forge Bonus. Bonus is cumulative. Is path construction bonus. Reduction straightforward? I've seen a discussion on this but can't remember. Is 50% half-cost? Linear savings?]. It's not impossible to give your Golem Crafter two Dwarven Hammers and get a 50% forge bonus. Take a Forge Lord for pretender, and you can get a 75% bonus before your first year is out.
The most likely thing you're going to forge with fire gems is the Burning Pearl. This gives a hefty +4 attack boost, and as an afterthought, 50% FR. Considering all the tempting Earth Weapons with an attack penalty, I always have a few on hand. Much later, the Lightless Lantern is available for a +6 research boost. Around the same time, though, the Shield of Gleaming Gold becomes available, and that Awe property is rather tempting.

On the water front, I haven't found much of interest in my play, yet. But I've also had bad luck on the water gem front. But the Rime Hauberk may be something to give to any Ancient Lords you have visiting cold lands. Anything you think is a water Must Forge? Ideally at 5 water gems, before Forge Bonus? Later on I'll probably have enough gems to not penny pinch, but I'm focusing most of my efforts on improving my early game.

Oracle of the Ancients (400,1) (80,30,15) (DEEEHHH w/random +10% earth,fire,water,death)

Starts sacred, with old age. Though because max age is high, isn't affected as much as the Golem Crafter.

At 400 gold, the random pick is quite weak. Though not meaningless.

+1 death will open up some important options, primarily Twiceborn (sometimes gives +1 upon death), Skull Staff, Create Revenant, Summon Spectre, Summon Mound Fiend, etc. At two death, he can bring all your other oracles up to his level and take Agartha in some interesting directions. Oh, and between a death random, Skull Staff, and spare death gems, you have D4, enough for Darkness.
An earth pick will open up Forge of the Ancients, Mechanical Militia, Riches From Beneath with Earth boots, no empowerment needed. You'll also be able to cast King of Elemental Earth, a powerful caster/potential thug. And you'll now be able to Earth Attack for a mere 5 Gems. Assassination from a distance is nice.
A fire pick will get you (new) Corpse Candles, (already have) Magma Eruptions at more of a discount. Also, Skull of Fire (+ fire)
A water pick will get you no particular spells.

All of these picks will open up some new options, especially with the Dwarven Hammers. Again, does two Dwarven Hammers count as +2 path for construction? Except water. I haven't found any reason to be happy about a random water pick. Anybody able to give me a reason?

On top of all this, you've got a level three priest. Four if you prophetize. Anybody know where I look for a listing of L4/L3 holy sites (dom3?) And how relevant the Dom2 list is? For instance, is the Temple of Time still here as H4? Any new holy sites? Any I should consider looking for/will see signs of?

Barring randoms, what do you use teh Oracle of the Ancients for?
Level 3 priest.
Summoning Umbrals and Awakening Cavern Wights and Enliven Marble Oracle
With boosts, Summoning Revenants and forging Skull Staffs, and casting Twice Born. (Gets you a handy move 3 unit).
They'll cast Blight, Dark Knowledge, Wizard's Tower (boost)
All these details and no summary? I'll need that in my final version. I'll need a basic version with footnotes at this rate. First post basic, second advanced?

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

The gem cost is fixed, nothing can change it. (except modding of course).

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

Thanks. Any idea where there's a comprehensive list of magic sites? I've found a full list of the names, I've found a list of their powers by number code, but nothing my brain can quite parse.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

Oh, and for later reference... Earth Readers Age 35.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

Whoops, my bad, I confused Readers with Crafters. I've mostly meant to say Crafters (the EEWFH variety).

Hm, anyway, I think I disagree with you regarding the relative strengths between Readers and Crafters. And I believe much of that stems from your pretender design giving Agartha poor scales. I'm thinking, what good does the Ghost King do during the first year, bar researching? You can't actually field him that early, especially with the astral and death magic only. With dormant you'd get 150 points or nearly 4 positive scale steps up. With neutral growth the Crafters aren't dying that soon, and they're superior battlefield support. Especially since they don't require anything forged.

Hm, regarding pretender design for Agartha I'm still undecided. The one Alex gave earlier, awakened immortal Oracle is about the only one I'd dare to field really early if any points are put to magic paths. The Oracle is a find, since not many immortals have all the slots and near hundred base HP. On the other hand, you could benefit to have a sitesearcher/booster forget in paths that are weak, namely fire/water/death. With single picks it's hard to get good gem income in fire or water, the death sitesearching spell requires luckily only one pick of death.

On the forging front, dont forget Fire and Frost Brands which are great given your commander thugs' low attack scores. Also Crafters forge Charcoal Shields easily.

And, two similar items with bonuses don't stack. So you can't wield two Dwarven Hammers to any extra effect.

Hm. lots of things I agree with, only sticking to some I don't because of the lack of time and the impressive amount of stuff you've put down.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

I'm rather interested to hear what you have to say about Readers and Crafters. I started writing this guide to figure out the strengths and weaknesses, not because I was any good. I hadn't tried Agartha until a week ago, and if I make a whole new thread on the subject, I have no objections to borrowing someone else's expertise, if freely given.

Yeah... I knew the Ghost King was a poor choice. But that doesn't mean I didn't want to try. (I want to avoid obvious choices such as Risen Oracle, just because I'm contrary)

I was about to go into the pretender choice i picked... but before I go into any great detail about my master plans (Master as in Southparks' Underpants Gnomes
I've got step one (steal underpants) figured out, and step 3 (profit). But between there....

So... if you're in the Jaguar game, promise not to read any further, m'kay? Honor system here.

So my pretender for this game (already sent in to keep Sunday from disappearing into the abyss of pretender design and nothing else, so no chance of tweaking) is an awake Drakaina named Scylla, Patron of the Rich, Symbol of Unchallenged Victory. Scylla, is of course, a reference to Greek myth, the monster with six heads, and the dogs sprouting from her. I might have tried other things, too, but I would have been experimenting forever. So, while she's not going to change for now, I am interested in what you would have done differently with her, or suggest I do with what I've got.

She has two fire, three water, three death, and five dominion. Her scales are one order, one sloth, one turmoil, and three magic. Using some math I'll leave out for now, I can get all the way to construction four by fall. I've even done it in one practice game. So this is a research strong empire. The question of balance I'm trying to skew by sending Scylla along with my armies. She's not quite tough enough to take on the independents by herself, but once I hit const. four, she could take a water province by herself.

So while I can hit construction four by my first fall/early winter, I'm not sure that's the best way to spend my research. While I need to expand (and sloth hurts when I can only get resources from two provinces), hopefully my high research allows me to try something out. Do I let some of my mages do other things? I can pinch pennies by hiring earth readers instead of golem crafters, but given my order and sloth, I usually have enough money even to buy mercenaries. Up until I want to buy a fortress. I'm going to have to take some care in budgeting. But not as much with my previous turmoil-1, sloth-1, heat-1, death-1 pick. Rather than a significant penalty, I've got a 5% money bonus.

In the long run (dwarven hammer, construction 6), Scylla is capable of directly or indirectly getting me Demilichs, King of Banefire, King of Deeper Earth, Kokythiads, and the Water Queen. Still doesn't do much for my magic diversity, but does give me quite a bit more range in my chosen fields. That's certainly end-game though, since I'd need the gems for all that junk.

If I make it that far, I've got access to Darkness - though I'm not aiming for utterdark, as my pretender is neither blind, undead or able to see in the dark. Burden of Time would be suicidal with my mages, so thats out.

So while I have ideas about my endgame, I need to work on something a bit earlier than that or just unspecific expand, grow, conquer. Any five-point plans? I'll be thinking on what I'll be aiming for most of today, but I'm open to suggestions.

And I finally found that list of sites. In edi's sig. Which search engine doesn't include. Now, I just have to figure out the 20 sheets. But anyways, ignore my earlier question about sites. I found a rather nice one my last game, that gave me +1 gems all Except Death, Astral. And I found it with an Earth Reader, of all things.

I've done a custom sort on the sites list, tweaked the layout a bit. And its an interesting read, for sure. For instance, Water has only the one Level Four site, but its not unique, but rare, so I can get more than one, and it offers five water gems. And it can only be found on land!

Also, there's no reason to search under water with a priest of level two or above. The only underwater holy site requires H1.All the more intensive sites are above ground.

As for holying a l3 priest, to get a l4 prophet... There are two L4 holy sites. The Temple of Time and The Ward. No need to search for the Ward- it'll announce itself by smiting the undead. With its unrest reduction though, it'd make a nice place to hunt for blood or overtax. The Temple of Time... I'm uncertain about that one right now. But considering I don't need more priests, its safe not to waste a prophet searching for it. Unless it has some benefit I'm overlooking. The level three sites are nice enough , but not enough to go looking for. If I happen to have a way-to-expensive oracle searching for high-level earth sites, though...

If the unrest reduction is active all the time, you can find most of the sites by a little judicious taxation. If not... Also, earth death and fire all offer level one const bonus sites.

Theres all sorts of tidbits here... but I'd lose track of my purpose if I went on about it.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

Hm, I don't think anyone is claiming to be too expert to be wrong here, I at least err more than enough. If I come blunt it's just that English is not my native language (the usual disclaimer), so apologies for that.

Anyway, I think you've noticed too that about the only problem with using your pretender as a lone combatant is her low protection - no body slot nor earth magic. Should you manage to up her protection somehow (and get some regeneration) she's a melee monster, with fire shield, breath of winter and personal quickness. Barring that, site search, research, forging and summons then, with an assisting role in battles in a pinch. Note that if you go Evocation tree, she gets all the acid spells which are AP and armour-destructing. Very yummy.

As I said, Agartha gets nice battlefield spells early with a variation necessary for changing opponents. Human troops get stuck with Earth Meld (Alt2), high protection can be negated with Rust Mist (Evo2 if you get it to work) and Magma Bolts kill even giants (Evo3). I'd hope those would get you through early-game rush should you start near some stupid bless-nation. Note that aforementioned things rely on you bringing Golem Crafters into fray. Earth Power and Stoneskin may help with their survivability. Also, don't forget the sitesearching spells from Thau2 and Conj2.

I'm not an expert with construction magic, but I'd think if you can get a good gem income Const4 could be handy with your Ancient Lords (Frost Brand, Charcoal Shield, Elemental armor give 100% prot against two elements and fire and cold elemental damage irrespective of attack skill, just add reinvigoration). ...damn, I really need to switch to Construction in my MP game...

I think much depends on where you're heading and who is against you. Earth Meld is bound to be totally useless against Jotuns but a lifesaver against a Vanir rush. I can't tell what's the truth, just my version of it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

And what comes to holy sites, and sitesearching in general, I wouldn't stress too much of finding everything. Just use your pretender to search initially, then forge a couple of fire/water boosters to your Crafters and have them cast sitesearching spells on all your provinces.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

And, in case you didn't notice, I started this whole thread because I had no clue how to play MA Agartha and had been assigned them in Perpetuality. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Regarding the differences between Earth Readers and Golem Crafters, I think ERs come handy when you're in mid-game when the law of averages comes into play (you're more dependant on cost of upkeep and RP per gold than abilities of a single mage). That in mind, I've at least first recruited solely GCs as they're superior at least during the first year of their recruitment. Maybe when there are three castles up or so and all your battlemage/sitesearch/forger/summoner functions are filled ERs become cost effective. And, of course, during the turns when you haven't got enough money for 200 gold mage (going to be rare).

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

You're not coming off as blunt. Rather, I'm looking for more criticism. Sensible experience. And even wild, unfounded speculation. Anything that makes me look at my assumptions, or sparks some stupid-wild germ of an idea for me to look into. Anything, really, even an Agarthan cookie recipe. I'm fumbling in the dark, here (Pun intended).

A bit of advice- don't eat Agarthan cookies if they're called "Rocky Road". The Golem bits have a nasty tendency to attack the eater.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

Well... recruiting solely Golem Crafters with Scylla allows me to reach 4th level research by fall first year.

But, recruiting earth readers early on does allow for two advantages. That 110 gold you're saving can help you hire mercenaries, and get a second fortress up quite a bit earlier.

On that matter, I heard somewhere that Cave City and Forts are under the effect of Darkness? Is this true?

Fortress Review:
Capital: Cave City
Default: Fortified City
Mountain: Cave Fort
Swamp: Swamp Fort
Forest: Forest Fortress
Tower weapons: 6x sling

Also worth noting is that with a pair of boots, your Oracles of the Ancients can cast Wizard's Tower for 50 gems- but only at Alt 8.

Your capital is pretty well defended, but rather low on supplies. If you expect a siege, Pale One Soldiers are not a bad choice, as they don't consume supplies. Your admin is a measly 30, which means that it will always be difficult to mass Ancient Ones. Unless you're surrounded by a lot of forests/mountains.

Your Default Fortress of a Fortified City is exceptional. It's defense isn't ideal, but it is well supplied in case of sieges, and most importantly, it has 50% admin. Which means, build one of these in a strategic position to pump out the majority of your national troops. On second thought, your nationals aren't that special- a good independent selection works as well. When you build one of these, consider leaving out a temple and lab to save money.

As to Mountain provinces the Cave Fort is there.It's admin and supply are measly, but its high defense means Pale One Soldiers can hold it for quite a long time against a larger force. Unfortunately, on random maps you will only see border provinces, at least at v. 3.08. It's on the expensive side though. I would NOT recommend making this your first fort. However... there are certain circumstances where its value jumps dramatically. A iron Mine, for instance. Or the Vaults Beneath (150 resources). Or some indies, or special site recruits.

Your Swamp Fort is abysmal- but cheap at 800 and 3 turns. It has absolutely 0 admin value. However, its not a bad place to put a library and temple, pumping out mages. If you want to double up your research early (sacred mages, magic scale 3), this is an option, albeit one that hamstrings troop production and vulnerable to attack. On the plus side, you could put one up next to a better fort, such as your capital, and it will hardly affect production.

Your Forest Fortress is not a bad choice. It's hardly ideal, but considering forests are high in resources and it goes up in four turns and 1000 gold, this is a decent production choice. If you haven't grabbed all the provinces in the area, its superior to a fortified city.

Is there anything special about the Wizard's Tower, or is it simply a magically created fort? Regardless, it does have nice admin.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

National Summons. General Summons will come later.

While its not heavily advertised, your golems get +10% hitpoints per level of dominion. I don't know if the opposite is true in hostile dominion.

Agartha's national summons are an important part of your strategy. With a base income of 5 earth gems, and plenty of mages capable of remote site searching with Gnome Lore, you can easily form the core of your army around your golems.

If you've taken sloth and high magic, then aim to include these in your armies by the start of the second year, or earlier. If you've taken productivity, you can go a bit further with your mundane national troops.

Most of your national golems are sacred. With every mage being a priest, its easy to bless the 5 or 20 you can send out with your Earth Readers and Golem Crafters, respectively. For larger numbers, your Oracle of the Ancients is a level three priest for area blesses. Earth bless, ironically, is useless (for these, but not the mages), and don't be tempted by the nature bless either. Since they're lifeless, 50 morale, regen and beserk is useless. Since they have no armor, all natural protection, they have no encumberance and no armor to get +4.

Also worth noting is patrol bonuses handy for paying for even more Golem Crafters. They need to be repaired in labs, and squash undead statistically and also because there's little point in lifedraining or fear. Lifeless offers several nice benefits. The manual isn't entirely up to date with regards to these, you'll have to take a peek to see all the details. They're also magical beings. Gotta keep your mages alive. Finally, many have map moves of three, but your mages 1. Keep a sharp eye out for any independent mages with decent magic leadership and high map moves, and consider twiceborn-ing an Oracle when the opportunity presents itself. If the Marble Oracle has leadership thats nice- but I don't know yet.

Are they affected by Darkness?
Acronyms
SAR - Standard Aggregate Research
EAR# - Estimated Available Research #
EAR operates under the assumption that each turn your recruit a mage of research ability # and dedicate them to research. Plenty of things can affect this, including early secondary forts, indies... It will be followed by a time.

Standard Golem Crafter RP 6. Magic Scale 3- 8.
Standard Earth Reader RP 3. Magic Scale 3 - 5.

Basic Formula SARx2/RP = t^2 + t
Estimate is sqrt(SARx2/RP). Since it's an estimate, I'm not to worried about rounding up or down. Or whether it starts on turn 1 or two. This is just to give an idea of how quickly one might get to a dedicated research goal.

Attentive Statues - Enchant 3 E2, 8 Gems, SAR 200
EAR3 ~ 11. EAR5 ~ 9 EAR6 ~ 8. EAR8 ~ 7

Compared to your later summons, they don't seem to impressive. However, they are well worth summoning. Consider the typical early expansion army- 10 infantry flanked by two squads of light infantry, ten each. This is sufficent to take down a few indies without many casulties. Now, consider replacing the core of ten infantry with ten Attentive Statues. They lack shields, but at 22 protection, they needn't worry about typical arrows. Even crossbows have to deal with 11 protection minimum, and they're 10 damage strength NOT added. These units are by no means immune to missile fire, but they do nicely. On top of that, all their stats are enough to squash your typical human heavy infantry, and at 50 morale, they'll never break- unless your mage gets squashed. They don't repair outside of a lab though, you'll have to keep an eye on that. Especially worth mentioning is their defense of 14- particularly higher than your later summons. And no encumbrance.

And in funding pinch, they have a patrol bonus, just send them to a farmland, and overtax those stupid abovegrounders.

Enliven Sentinels - Enchant 4 E2, 4 Gems, SAR 360
EAR3 ~ 15 EAR5 ~ 12 EAR6 ~ 11 EAR8 ~ 9.

Sentinels seem more attractive than Attentive Staues. On a one on one basis, they certainly have more hitpoints and strength for the gems, not to mention sacred. On the downside, they have five less defense. Sometimes that means they'll need more repairs at your neighborhood lab. On top of the greater strength, the Granite Sword has been replaced with a Granite Glaive capable of 7 damage, instead of 4, and length 4 causing some possible repels.

In all, they are better than Attentive Statues, but I wouldn't wait for them unless expansion was going very well. If my expansion was going swimmingly, then I'd save my gems for these. In other words, if I went with a high productivity bonus I'd save oup for Sentinels.

Enliven Granite Guard - Enchant 5 E3, 12 Gems, SAR 520
EAR3 ~ 19 EAR5 ~ 15 EAR6 ~ 13 EAR8 ~ 12.

Triple the gem cost, triple the hitpoints, and 22 strength. Throw in a 100% health bonus from a dom10 golem cult and you get 150 astonishing hitpoints. They're mean on the offense, capable of giving Giants a good show (though their 22 prot is matched by 20 strength+weapons). In friendly territory, they'll easily give those giants a good spanking and send them running home to their mommies. If you can afford them.

Enliven Marble Oracle
Haven't tried it yet. Can it lead troops? Any equipment slots? Prophet capable? Anybody have the juicy gossip on el Oracle?

Awaken Cavern Wight - No experience using it yet. What have you got to say?
Chill 3, undead. Available the same time as a a regular Wight, but costs 3 gems instead of five. Loses the bane blade in place of a more mundane glaive. Probably a little inferior, but at 60% cost, who am I to complain.

Summon Umbral - No experience using it yet. What can you say about it?

Stealth, Life Drain, Ethereal, undead. Give a Black Servant a Rod of the Leper King and you've got a raiding force. A lot meaner than shades.

Any juicy gossip on these units?

While your golems are formidable, they don't have any special crowd control properties. Thats why I suggest using them as the core of your force, flanked by mundanes. After all, your mages have much more mundane leadership than magical.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

Umbra;s are great and extremely powerful, if you have death gems you should summon some.
Tomb oracles are mindless, lifeless magic beings. They are level 2 priests and have full slots. They have 85 health, 22 protection(thats before you put armour on them so you can give them things like robes of shadows), 22 strength, 12 attack and 10 defence. The fact that they are mindless along with their 15 MR makes them pretty magic resistant but being magic beings leaves them slightly vunerable.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

Thank you Shovah. Now, bold in the manual means they are a commander, but not all commanders (scouts, for instance) can lead. Do the Marble Oracles get any mundane, undead, or magic leadership?

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

0 leadership all-round.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

Poo. Thanks for answering, though. I've looked through the equipment lists, and theirs no serious magical leadership boosters, unfortunately. It would be nice to have a 160 hitpoint leader with 22 protection, but I'll have to settle for an Oracle of the Ancients for meaty magery.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

A Const 4 S2 (10 pearls) Crown of Command gives magical leadership+25 (and mundane leadership +50 as a bonus).

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

But does the crown give those bonuses to originally zero leadership unit? I once gave the rod of the leper king to that death summon scout in order for him to lead shade beasts, but his undead leadership didn't rise from zero...

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

Yes, leadership items work even if the original leadership is zero. I'm not sure what happened with your rod of the leper king, but here's a screenshot of a Black Servant leading some Shade Beasts into battle.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w...ions/leper.jpg

Leadership displays as zero because that's the mundane leadership; undead leadership is 50.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

Huh, good to know. Now my Agartha can have its stealthy raiders without N4 mage. Thanks for the info.

Hm, maybe it wasn't working in Dom2 when I tried it and I just assumed it still won't work. Or maybe I just mess up and don't get things to work.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

Not that i distrust you in any way, but I fail to see what the screenshot is proving. It shows no leadership and no shade beast.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

Sorry! Shades, not shade beasts. They're hard to see, look under the frame at the right. They're also not mine, which is why I don't have a simple shot of the black servant leading the troops in the setup screen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

Well... I second Black Servants leading with Rod of the Leper King. I've done it. Just click on the leadership number to get the full details. CTIS! CTIS! CTIS! I started with EA Ctis, and no national scouts, so I was desperate to try tings. With a high death income, its doable. It only requires level 2 research. And I think one of the summons I haven't used is stealthy.

With Agartha, its a bit more difficult, involving Oracles, Dwarven Hammers, Skull Staffs (C4), then finally Rod of the Leper King and summoning. But you're going that direction anyway, usually.

That screenshot, it doesn't look like that black servant is wielding a rod of the leper king. But magic sceptre... Huh...

Crown of command? Awesome. Only problem is theres now another school of magic I need to work into my pretender. But that's for the future. With it, i can get myself a 100+ hitpoint leader for 25 national golems. That's better then my mages. And all with a strategic move of three.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

The screenshot shows the focus actually on the Rod. I suppose it didn't really help much to post it, but it was such a coincidence to be attacked by an army-leading zero-leadership unit at the same time I read your post.

The descriptions in the equipment lines (Weapons, Armor) on the unit examination window often show something unexpected.

Just for example, a Horror Helm shows as a "Full Helmet", and a Dragon Helmet shows as an "Iron Cap".

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

Huh... I suppose that's just for enemy units. Have you ever had that happen on a friendly unit? This interests me, and I'll examine a lot more units in combat now.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

The weapon/armor lines that are wrong are always wrong, independent of whether the unit is friendly or not. But since the equipment is always displayed even for enemy units, I think it's not really that significant that the weapon/armor lines are wrong for some items.

I think it's a good idea to always have a look at the equipment of all enemy commanders if you get the opportunity. But that also helps get turns into the 2 or 3 hour range when there's a lot of battles happening http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

I started using Fraps to keep screenshots of many things like that in the games I play vfb. I keep ss's of gods, sc's, thugs, a nations bless if I don't know what their god has...
It's rather invaluable.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

Sounds like a great plan! I won't go through so many scraps of paper, that I eventually lose anyway.

Re: What counts as Golem Cult?
 

GOOD GRIEF! Agartha was the first MA nation I tried. In preparation for my upcoming game, I took looks at the other nations... And I've got to reevaluate things...

Hopefully most of what I've posted elsewhere still holds true, but I'll see.