Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

I take it, because someone likes se4 over se5, that the only excuse for that fopa would be that they are an old-time fan? People discover SE IV and V everyday and not everyone is into SE V head or heals.

All because some of us have decided that SE V isn't for us shouldn't mandate that we be marginalized as "old-time fans" because that would be a totally unfair characterization.

Some people just prefer SE IV over SE V. Thats to say that some people like Civ 3 over Civ 4. (Shudder) It isn't about being an old-time fan boy, its about personal preferences.

It has nothing to do with being a fan of one game over the other.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

Which isn't to say that just because we like SE4 dosen't mean we aren't old timers... a decade is certainly ancient in Internet time.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

Atrocities said:
Ok so SE IV is dead because no one on the SE V official site plays it.

Nobody said anything of the sort... All anyone has said is that they doubt that there are more people playing SE4 than SE5 overall. Retail tends to bring in a lot more customers in a short period of time than Internet sales, afterall... That doesn't imply that SE4 is dead, and it doesn't imply that there isn't anyone new to the series that winds up preferring SE4...

Atrocities said:
"...marginalized as "old-time fans" because that would be a totally unfair characterization. "

...what? Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed today? There was no "marginalization" implied or expressed in my post. I don't see how "old-time fans" can be construed as a negative term... It is merely a statement as to the length of time one has been playing the game(s). I fit under that category. Does that mean I was trying to marginalize myself?

Atrocities said:
I take, it because someone likes se4 over se5, that the only excuse for that fopa would be that they are an old-time fan?

What thread are you reading, exactly?

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

Fyron old boy, I was editorializing. No need to go postal on my old fan boy arse. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

.

One doesn't need to be an old-time fan to enjoy the game and no one should be labeled as such all because they do enjoy the game. I am concerned that many SE V players look down upon SE IV players as being "old-time fans." I just wanted to make the point that one doesn't have to be an old-time fan to enjoy the game. Thats all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

I don't see "old-time fan" as negative designation. In fact I would consider it as a compliment for myself!
I was very sceptical at the beginning about SE V, but more and more I began to like it and now I cherish the many improvements compared to SE IV. Therefore I play more SE V even if it is still not as perfected as SE IV.
If only I could motivate Atrocities to adapt his 1001 races to SE V. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

Hey Q, I tried to adopt some sets to SE V and just gave up out of shier frustration. I did however successfully introduce three star trek sets based off of SFC I, II, and III models, but even those no longer work in SE V. Sadly it is probably only a minor fix but frankly I am just not motivated enough to even consider trying to figure it out at this point.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

Personally I still prefer SMAC/X over both Civ3 and IV...

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

Q said:
"I don't see "old-time fan" as negative designation. In fact I would consider it as a compliment for myself!"

Exactly! Its not derogatory in any way.

AT:
I never said you _had_ to be a fan of the series for some time to enjoy SE4... please stop putting words in my mouth.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

I would like to second this, but I haven't played Civ3 or Civ4, so I can't really judge. But my impression from skimming the Civ3 manual was that it looked like a step backward. SMAC/X is definitely the best Civ-category game I have played. (Some people might argue that the Civ series is part of the 4X category, but it feels like a separate category to me.)

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

Fyron - "I never said you _had_ to be a fan of the series for some time to enjoy SE4... please stop putting words in my mouth."

I never intended to.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

Civ3 was definitely a huge step backwards, even from Civ2 (plus expansions). It was more like Civ1.5. The true Civ3 was the Call to Power game... Civ4 has gone in somewhat of a different direction though. A few of the features of SMAC (and the Call to Power games) made their way into Civ4, but overall its gone in a much different direction than the older titles.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

I agree with AT on the fact that he, along with many other talented people put A LOT of hours in making ship sets and heavy modding. Then SEV comes out and pulls a “Microsofty” and changes all the formats for the file types!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif Do you know how much really good work was left only to the SEIV game and not able to get into SEV without major modifications? It boggles my mind to think that work was ignored by the SEV version and that when SEVI comes out, will they pull another page from Gate’s book? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

To be fair, the only significant change was the addition of .x models for facilities and ships. The remainder of the required files are still more or less the same image files as before.

It's just unfortunate that most of the sets designed for SE:IV were done with programs that didn't lend themselves well to the format used for SE:V.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

That's rather alarmist, don't you think? SE4 invalidated all the SE3 shipsets too (which was good, because they were just a set of tiny icons anyways), as well ditching as the binary data file format in favor of plain text files (also good). There were several hundred shipsets made for SE3 that became useless for SE4... Should we decry that too? SE5 is just another evolution, with real models alongside the portraits, and formula-based data files. There wasn't anything that could be done to keep the static data file format around, without a huge amount of bug-prone code to try to shoe-horn it into the system. Same with the purely 2d nature of the shipsets... How do you advance the system with 3d and still support model-less sets? SE6 will almost without doubt use the same model format (and hopefully Aaron negotiated continued use of the models in future releases), and similar data files, perhaps with more functions or user-definable functions. I don't see anything "Microsofty" about it...

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

Fyron, my point.
SE3 mod work - gone!
SE4 mod work - gone!
SE5 mod work - ???
As the game progressed so did the work being done on it. To lose all this hard work and effort without at least trying to incorporate it into your new system just doesn't seem fair. I know I have some ships on DoGA like many others do. You would think that being a 3D program they might have figured out how to use it in the newer release (SE5).
I just feel a better attempt to (at least) try to use current work could have been made.
Yes I'm aware of the image constraints on graphics of using DoGA models in the 3D engine. Things change and some things get left behind, but I still think it was a great loss of some really great work! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

There are roughly 8 billion different formats for 3d models out there (far more than just Doga was used for SE4 shipsets), and it would be difficult to support all of them. It is far better overall to pick an industry standard, like the native DirectX model format. Something like 3ds would have worked, but would have raised the bar as far as actually making stuff for the game what with the whole $4000 modeling program and all.

Doga's format is not well suited for real time rendering in a game engine and probably should never be considered for such use. I'm not aware of any well-supported libraries for real time rendering either, unlike the more standardized formats (.x, 3ds). However, it is entirely possible to convert Doga models to .x format, and make use of them in SE5 (and even Starfury). They tend to be of rather high polygon count and need some reworking of texture info, but they can be made to work.

As far as I can tell, the only practical way to support Doga natively in the game would be to abandon all plans for 3d...

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

Doga models do work in SE V, in fact they work quite well. However it is the texture mapping of these models that has proven to be the problem.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

I appreciate the post Fyron. I know that you have been here on this board for a long time. I just read the early reports about modding SE5 and felt that it was “Start from Scratch”, but as you just explained there were some parts that made it through. Maybe I just miss the old discussions like this and feel that just a little more than a game was lost when they moved to SE5.

AT, that’s still a lot of work to re-texture all those ship sets that you did. You did a great job on them and many others out there, did too! I hope you decide to keep going on the STM and maybe someday they’ll come out with a program to reduce the polygon count for DoGA models. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

I think the general feel is still "Was the shift to higher level formats in SEV worth it?"

I know (as stupid as it seems to some of us) that sales are made and lost based on look and feel. There is a sizeable crowd which refuses to pay "new game prices" for games that look to them like its from a decade ago.

On the other hand, its not SEIV which impressed me. Try loading it and playing it vanilla from the CD. Feels like a demo with such a small galaxy and only 8 races. Its the SEIV as it become with player mods. Huge galaxies, many aditonal images, over 300 races, better AI, a great online signup site for multiplayer games, etc etc etc.

As far as I can see, the shift is still hanging up the modding. SEV is not becoming what SEIV is. I own both and Im still waiting for SEV to become what I consider playable. Now, whether or not the sales was able to prove the shift worth it I would love to know. Im often in discussions with other games developers. Also the shift from a great publicity/online-purchase/support publisher to a marketing/DD/buy-out publisher.

So far, if there is an SEVI Id like to see Aaron take the newly gained player base and pull it back to the old arrangment (altho I understand he has sold the ability to do that)

Gandalf Parker

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

Gandalf, some of the best games I've ever played were low end graphics, BUT I played them into the wee hours of the night. Empire Deluxe was one of them along with games by Avalon Hill like Midway, Dreadnaughts and many others. They were good games and provoked an interest without glamour or glitz! SE4 was that type of game. The modding and patches made it that much better. I do not believe SE5 is in the same category as SE4. BUT it does have Glitz and Glamour!

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

I think SE5 is in the same category... its got a graphics engine rivaling tech from 1998. The actual gameplay is more or less identical to SE4. Its just the clunky interface holding it back, for the most part. Games like GalCiv, Sword of the Stars, MOO3, have lots of glitz and glamor. SE5 is pretty basic in comparison (which is a good thing). There is a fair amount of mod work and discussion going on for the game, but much of it takes place on the official site these days, rather than here. :-\

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

Fyron said:
Maybe that's it Fyron, I just miss the activity here! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/Injured.gif

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

The official site has a lot of traffic these days. I still like the format of this site over that of the official site and perhaps thats why I seldom if ever post on the official site. We all knew that this would happen as new people joined the ranks of SE fans that they would gravitate toward the official site thus taking along with them the more seasoned veterans of the game.

Some vets however just wanted to be top dawg at the new site so they pretty much said good bye to this site the moment that site opened. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

You're right AT, some gratitude shown toward the site that actually helped make SE5 what it is by making a thread to Aaron, about what people wanted to see in the next version. While the faithful remain here at one of the best sites I've ever had the privilege of being on. I never had any problems getting help here and after a while I found myself in a position to help other. I http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/heart.gif this site!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

I still play and mod my SEIV game. It's just a better game. I also play GalCiv2 alot. I just feel SEV is not a fun game.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

Atrocities said:
Some vets however just wanted to be top dawg at the new site so they pretty much said good bye to this site the moment that site opened. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Such unbounded pessimism...

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

No not really Fyron. I would say this was fact not my usual pessimism. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

One of the reason the official site has grown is because of the efforts and dedication of vets that once made this site a great place to be. Time marches on and the newness of an official site for SE was a long over due event.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

I actually agree with AT on this one, we have seen multiple vets simply up and leave shrapnel to begin posting solely on se5.com for no reason that I can see other than to be the big man over there. I admit I would be over there too if the site layout didn't disgust me as much as se5's interface....

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

Why do you guys assume some sort of egotism? Isn't a simpler explanation just that some people would prefer to use the official game forums? Or perhaps they went to the more active place?

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

I'd like to know who these alleged posters are because after frequenting both sites for a year, I have no clue who you might be referring to.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

Hey guys, dont knock it. If another does it then I might be able to post here.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

Good point Fyron, but remember old habits die-hard. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif
It is hard to find anyone these days that has any loyalities to anything! It’s all about “What have you done for me lately” and a very quickly changing world that some people feel they will miss something if they don’t have the latest and greatest. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
I still come here quite a lot and read, sometimes I even post! I enjoy being one of those who still come here and contribute. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

Yep, still playing almost every day.

(cant't play SEV for long, getting bored and iritaded within 30 turns)

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

GP:
Heh, you seem to be posting here just fine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The official 'official' forums do have drawbacks.
The unofficial 'official' forums do have benefits.

We just need to keep it realistic.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

I meant post real questions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

The support for this site still continues. I think the new site can safely say that it received its roots here. As far as SE4 vs SE5 goes, it's a matter of personal preference! I don’t feel that it was made as “User Friendly” as it should have been. The ability to incorporate some of the work done here to the mods was good, but not without loss of some really good work. While change is supposed to be good, the ability to import more of the work done on SE4 would have made some sense, as it was one of the main reasons that people still played this game for so many years without a re-release of it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

SE IV - fun but limited by its graphics.
SE V - fun but limited by its user interface. (not the graphics, the system itself)

The games are very similar in game play but just different enough to be consider different games.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

IMO, SE4's graphics are superior.
They are only as big as they need to be, don't block your view, and everything is always perfectly legible.

Snappy and responsive too, since the screen only has to be drawn once instead of continuously.

SE5's pictures are bigger and prettier, and the 3D models are nice, but they don't help gameplay at all, and often make it hard to see and read things.
Oh, how I long for 2D text overlays whenever I look at the system or combat views.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

I really would like to see se iv update to use 3d images for top down views in combat and system movement. The images could then be scaled to size, and wouldn't look all fuzzy when they are displayed at an angle.

Having the planets rotating in seiv and six to 9 size stars would be awesome. And ring and sphere worlds that take up 9 to 16 sectors. AWESOME.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

I agree 10000%. I can easily see myself playing SE4 for another 10 years. It's just so immersive, so DEEP and yet so easy on my computer system.

I only played the SE5 demo, but the game as a whole turned me off. The things I remember most about it were 1) that the ships were way too small and that 2) when you entered a system, you could not see what was in the system. That just made no sense at all to me.

SE5 had an entirely different feel, IMHO, and was just not very appealing. I expected the game to have more of what I loved about SE4: more resources, more techs and more (and better) political interaction. Let me create my own government. Let me appoint and fire system governors, sector governors, cabinet ministers with abilities and flaws. Let me make realistic treaties with other civilizations.

Instead, it gave us...3D graphics. Yawn. Well, I'm 50 years old and I am just not impressed by eye candy. I want more game depth. I saw SE5 for sale for $10 a couple weeks ago and still could not bring myself to buy it.

But hey, lots of people like SE5 and more power to them. I hope a lot of copies were sold. Different strokes, as they say.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

The second complaint is easily modded out in the Data\Settings.txt file. Set these lines to TRUE (skip the ship and unit ones, naturally), and sight will be just like it is in SE4:

Can See Star At Any Distance := TRUE
Can See Planet At Any Distance := FALSE
...
Can See Asteroids At Any Distance := FALSE
Can See Storm At Any Distance := FALSE
Can See Warp Point At Any Distance := FALSE

The next 5 reference objects that do not actually exist in the game code, so can be ignored.

=0=

Note that SE5 is about more than just a graphical upgrade; there is a lot of candy for modders too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif The game still needs work to be more fun to play, though.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

Fyron, I guess that's the point. When you already have a game that's fun to play. Why would you leave it for another that needs work? People expected a lot from SE5 and many were disappointed! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
I expected it to surpass SE4 and really kick some arse. Maybe my expectations were too high? But with the level of play that was achieved with SE4, there was no reason not to expect that.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

Given that the core mechanics are identical or refined (outside of combat, which is arguably vastly better than the shoddy initiative-less system of SE4), the exact same level of play exists in SE5. All that is SE4 is in there. Its mostly just the interface that could have been designed better...

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

True, but you have a hard time getting to the core mechanics because you're bogged down by the user interface. SE4 is much more accessible.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

Initiative mattering is only a problem when weapons outstrip defenses by too much.

And we don't have a fair and accurate real-time alternative yet.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

That, to me, is a game-killer. I just don't want to spend time wading through a difficult interface just because there might be a good game underneath.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

I beg to differ. I lost two major fleet engagements in my last SEIV PBW game because of the turn sequencing. Both battles were textbook examples of what's wrong with the way SEIV resolves combat.

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

Which mod was that?

Stock-like Attack:Defense ratios fit my view of "too much"

Re: Any One Still Playing This Game?
 

It doesn't matter what your Attack:Defense ratios are; initiative-less combat is a terrible, terrible thing in any case. You can partially ameliorate the other absurdities with very high defense compared to attack, but it doesn't change the inherent flaws in the type of combat engine SE4 uses. Having all of the objects owned by one side arbitrarily move and act before all of the objects owned by the other side, every turn, is just bad game design.