Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

I never play blitzes, although Hidden Signs ended up being one because of the tiny size of the map. I don't think the game was designed with them in mind, and their tendency towards bless rush is boring for me.

Jazzepi

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

OTOH keep in mind that Van and Hel have the worst researchers in the game. 3 RP for 160 gold, temple and lab both required...that's significantly worse than using shaman researchers. They need troops that are kind of unfairly good, because their ability to get to late-game magic is kind of unfairly bad. It's also hard to take magic-3 with a double bless.

MA Van having build-anywhere sacreds is kind of over the top with their raiding potential though, I'll certainly agree to that.

Vans and helhirds may be overpowered, and they're certainly going to put the hurt on people early on...small maps are a problem, but their nations' magic potential is fairly low...I think it might make for a more interesting nation if the sacreds got bumped down a bit but some better research options were available...perhaps the addition of philosopher-like serf mages, forbidden to cast spells (no paths) that are employed to help research, maybe 5 RP for 100 gold. (philosophers are 50 for 5 and benefit from sloth scales IIRC, so hopefully that's not stepping on Arco's toes too much, since they're twice the cost.)

Adding something like that in exchange for some of the sacreds' power would open up more magical options later in the game for the glam nations and give them a tradeoff, not just a straight nerf. It would also allow them to make more decisions about where to focus instead of having to go for the bless strat every time. I think it's the units that are the problem, not the nations as a whole.

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

I'm still undecided about how the latest patch helps but...

I pretty much agree with Micah about the root cause. It's not that the heims are completely unbalanced over the course of the game it's just that they have such an overwhelming early game strength that the vast majority of defenders have almost no chance against them. That aspect of their "play style" is simply not fun - no matter which side you are on.

You should always have a decent chance to at least fight off a rush nation.

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

I agree with Velusion. I think the problem is that right now the nation is balanced for an entire game.

So your Vans might rush player A, and B, but then get crushed in the end game.

While this is fine for players C-F who didn't get rushed and still have a fair chance against them, but what ends up happening is that Vanheim is like this lottery ticket of death for 1-2 nations every time they get into a game with a bless rush strategy where there is no early game way to defend against it.

Jazzepi

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

...Only if there wasn't a nation named Caelum.
Oh, wait, There is.

EA Caelum definitely rush better than Van, which you can try out in a game(few units work against early mammothes, those actually worked are very vulnerable to early LB & TS). The only reason they don't is that they simply could do better focus on long-term plan, which is what Van cannot.

Van rushes not because of they can, but because they must. That IS the van style, if you don't follow, you are nobody later.

Here goes a quotation from pre 308:

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

That would be nice. But there are a number of nations (in addition to the vans) which can take out the majority of nations with an early bless rush irregardless of tactics.

Mictlan (all ages) - what do you do when you find out you have Mictlan as a neighbor on turn 5, and then are rushed by 50 dual blessed jags (and assorted chaff) on turn 7?

EA Niefelheim - what exactly is the early counter for blessed niefels? They eat vans for a light snack. Abysia can stand up to them, but who else?

MA Ermor - shadow vestals are nearly as cheap as jags and more resistant to counters such as massed archers. Depending on priests to save your bacon is laughable.

EA Pangaea and Lanka, and MA Marignon, Machaka and Jotunheim, - can also put together a pretty brutal rush. Better have your own bless strategy working or an awake SC pretender, or these nations will eat your lunch early on.

In short, nations with good sacreds and a good bless tend to eat their immediate neighbors in the early stages. The Vans are not unique.

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

Vanheim in LA (Midgard) also has got a nice turn 8, 200-unit skinshifter rush, as an alternative to a Van rush. Or so I hear. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

Nobody suspects the werewolves.

Seriously though, I think the amazing scales + werewolves rush is a great tactic and I was very pleased that I randomly got Midgard so I could try it again. 40 werewolves can take on any neutral province, so you can expand like crazy, and you just roll over whomever doesn't have archers. Even with archers, you have early access to mist, yay!

Jazzepi

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

If you hadn't been swamped by a whole bunch of nations, you might even have had a chance to test that out! Midgard has loads of Air gems, so even an A2 Galderman can use an extra gem and cast it, right?

And does Storm stack with Mist?

Edit: Nothing to stop MA Van from doing the same with a Vanjarl. All the anti-glamor arrows discussion assumes you're not also casting Mist, right?

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

Sure you can design many nations to be a bless rush nation that will very likely be able to defeat another non-bless rush nations early - but thats like saying "you're probably going to die" compared to "you are going to die".

No other nation can turn out troops as powerful (aka invincible) in MA as Vanheim on turn 1. MA Ermor is very potent (probably too potent) - but at least they HAVE a weakness... even if it isn't easily exploitable. The fact that you can't even effectively counter-raid Vanheim is the last nail in the frustration/helpless coffin.

At least I feel like I have a small chance against Neifiel MA Ermor or Lanka - whereby I feel almost completely helpless against a W9/F9 MA Vanheim. (and I've been on the receiving end of all except Lanka)

The only other comparable frustration IMHO is the "elephants vs. all infantry non-bless rush nation" scenario... but that's a whole other problem - and limited to very specific nations vs. a limited few other nations.

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

Yup, you're guaranteed the ability to cast mist with your Galdermans out of the box. Every one of them comes with A2. The spell requires A3, but you can gem your way to it. It costs 2 gems per casting, per big battle. But that's a pittance, really considering what you're doing to the opponents archers.

Honestly, I made three bad play errors, and then more that followed. One was not attacking you sooner if I was going to. Two was not attacking C'Tis instead of you and taking on that vassalage and tribute. Three was not attacking the one undefended province you had when I was sieging your capital, had I done that, when Mehir routed he would have died instead of retreating there.

I just checked. Experience +1 longbowmen with a base precision of 12, had 4 current precision with both storm and mist up. The same longbowmen had 7 precision with just mist up. This means they stack! My observation would say that each effect cuts precision by half, and together they do by a quarter.

Jazzepi

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

Vans are capital only units... so the larger the map the less their effectiveness. The only issue is with large maps custom start settings should be placed by the host otherwise five players could be jammed together while one player is far away in the empty garden of eden.
Also considering the game has so so many different nations it's nice to have one or two stronger nations... especially for the SP gamers. I could understand the logic of balancing all the nations if there were only 7 or less to choose as we see from most games... but we have 62 nations to choose thus let there be some variety.
HOW many nations can DOMINIONS_3 have until Illwinter is finally allowed to create one super powerful nation? 100? 500? 5000?
If every single game you play has to have all opponent options balanced then it removes the option of playing a multiplayer or singleplayer game with a very strong opponent.

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

Jedi, perhaps you don't understand. The problem with Vanheim is that playing next to them means death. It isn't that they aren't balanced in the long game, it is simply that in the short game they are unstoppable. Start next to them, and die. Simple as that. That doesn't make for a very fun game, unless you also like self-inflicted eye-wounds and volunteer for unneeded amputations.

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

Completly agreed.
It seems that all those defending Van are playing sp, if they had started a mp near van they would be aware of their power. Vans (even unmounted) are so clearly overpowered that a look on the units db is more than enough.
"Van is only strong in the early game". You know better than me because that advantage in the early game means big advantage in the late game, it's characteristic of strategy resource based war games.
Perhaps the only good argument against Van nerfing is "I want a game with some very unbalanced nations". To help newbies? To do rush experiments? To win easily?. But at least is an argument.
I love vans, I ever played vans (and pangea) in Dom2. I hope they will be balanced to reintroduce them on my games.

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

Baalz has a good point. They have a ton of advantages, they are great units. That versitility should not be underrated. The nation is balanced by the fact they have a weak end game, but in every 4X game, the beginning is the most important part. The rush is a very valid strategy and if well managed, will give you a great start over your oppenents.

The only other person who has spoken specifically about single player reports that they do not have the "Heim vs human player" effect, so perhaps my experience is not typical. Still, given that humans have a tough time stopping them, I don't see why the AI would do any better.

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

The AI is simply not a challenge for me unless I handicap myself, but speaking from a SP standpoint, Vans are still too good. A better balanced game reduces the problems caused by how random the AI is, so resulting in slightly better SP gaming overall. This applies to all units which are miles better than anything else you could build - they just aren't desirable in the vanilla game.

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

Interestingly even before the nerf, on massive AI tests it was not the heims that came out on top. I dont even remember them winning any of the games tho they probably did.

The tests were like endurance tests for the game. All of the nations were in as AI's, the game was run on immeadiate hosting and went for days. Mostly I watched for crashes (of course), CPU loads, hosting time (it started at about 1 hosting every 10 minutes and went to alittle over 30 minutes), and memory leaks. Each game did create a log and a scores page. I did not keep great notes about the winners but I was looking to see if the same nation came up too often. There was nothing worrisome to report to the beta team.

Different maps, map sizes, victory conditions, other settings did make a difference in the game. In abit above average times on standard settings; the games tended to be Undead Ermor doing well in the early game, Oceania in mid game, and Arcos in late game if it had managed to get there.

I had considered automating it all and doing a big batch of one-on-one contests but I never got motivated enough to do it.

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

But that's because the AI can't actually play a bless strategy.

It doesn't take a good bless, except by accident. If it does it doesn't recruit enough sacred troops. When it does use sacreds it often doesn't bother to bless them.

Why would expect the AI to do well with an uber-bless rush nation?

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

NTJedi - the "Van" unit is only capitol only in LA. MA Vanheim can build them anywhere.

Has anyone seen a difference when fighting ea vanheim/helheim non-sacreds? I'm thinking of flaming arrows and bladewind etc.

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

I don't know that in practice they are so magically crippled as all that. Helhiem in particular has easy access to dwarven hammers, owl quils, and skull mentors and with their rapid expansion capabilities and broad path searching it's not unreasonable to expect to have several different indie mages available for recruiting to do the bulk of researching. They certainly don't lack for casting/forging power once the research is going. They may not be a research powerhouse but I certainly don't see them having no late game potential particularly as expansion->gold->mages->research so they can certainly compensate for a bit of cost ineffectiveness on their researchers.

As Velusion points out there is a difference between being rushed by vans and other rushes, it's the difference between being able to come up with a counterattack that has some chance of working (perhaps small, but possible) and feeling completely helpless because you can't think of anything that would even theoretically be realistic. To the people who keep saying vans aren't that bad, I hope I don't sound condescending, but have you actually gone up against a good player wielding vans? The people making these complaints are not newbies who roll over on a firm rush. Mammoths, Jaguar Warriors, and giants are *not* the same thing for the reasons I mention above - the strength of the vans is brutal but the really unballanced part is that the brutal strength is combined with unparalleled flexibility. They're better heavy cavalry than Ulm/Marignon/Man, better raiders than Pangea/Caelum, and better defenders than anybody else.

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

I'd be curious to know. I would think the 3.08 change really helps the mid-game against glamour units. What's funny is that both FA and BW also got nerfed in the last patch http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif (which is good IMHO).

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

Gandalf,

Most interesting to hear about the multiple long runs of the AI games. Given that no one else is reporting the issue, perhaps my sample size is too small or I am getting unusual results. In the game I was playing last night I was facing Arco in a mid to late game and their wide range of astral spells were adding up to make them much more challenging than the early game nation I know.

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

I assume, with the massive number of test that have been run, that someone has tried an identical unit without glamour? Seems that that would quickly isolate the problem (that is, if we can agree on whether there IS a problem.)

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

You would expect the glamour nerf to roughly double the number of hits against Vans, but an E9 bless will reduce the number of hits by something like a factor of 2.5, as well as reducing the damage when an arrow does manage to hit. I'm still kind of surprised the archers did "nothing" to the Vans.

-Max

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

Max! Hello, haven't seen you around for a while. Been on holiday?

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

As I wrote earlier...
Also considering the game has so so many different nations it's nice to have one or two stronger nations... especially for the SP gamers. I could understand the logic of balancing all the nations if there were only 7 or less to choose as we see from most games... but we have 62 nations to choose thus let there be some variety.
HOW many nations can DOMINIONS_3 have until Illwinter is finally allowed to create one super powerful nation? 100? 500? 5000?
If every single game you play has to have all opponent options balanced then it removes the option of playing a multiplayer or singleplayer game with a very strong opponent.
For those who cannot accept the sentences listed above then the answers are simple... either don't use Vanheim in your game since you have almost 60 others to choose OR use a MOD to balance Vanheim as you see fit.

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

Or they could be balanced in vanilla and then /you/ could use a mod to make them unbalanced and overpowered, as you see fit. To my mind that would make more sense.

But I believe people have argued this point with you before and you just kept repeating the same stuff, so forget it :]

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

Illwinter should make a really unbalanced nation. Armies of cheap recruitable SCs, cheap uber mages, etc.

A nation that even run by the AI, would require an alliance of players to stop it.
That would be a real challenge.

</snark>

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

Ive asked for that from the experts for awhile. Those who feel they know exactly what the AI does and doesnt do well could create a mod for a bigger better AI. If they know how to beat it so easily then it seems they might be able to fix it.

Amos has done a few nations that are not balanced for players, but none that seem to be specifically playing up the AI strengths and removing things the AI overuses.

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

How do you test for balance? What is an effective test?

Does Vanheim win all the MA games it is in? I think the evidence shows that they do not. It also appears that Vanheim is balanced for the entire game, rather than just the beginning or just the end. They have poor researchers and must have a substantial position in the late game so that they can hold on to win. But, if they do not have that position, they will not win.

Let's look at other classic games. In Diplomacy, is Italy balanced? Is Russia or France balanced? No, that is actually part of the game. Everyone must negotiate to set up a situation where Russia or France won't win. Only then can the other nations embark on their own path to victory.

In Republic of Rome, the player that holds the Cornelius family at the beginning of the game has a large advantage. Many have house ruled it so that they do not have such a powerful position, but I find those games less interesting than those with a powerful Cornelius that is guaranteed Censor and a 15 influence at the end of the first turn.

In Empires in Arms, France is far and away the strongest power in the game. Again, only by first curtailing France can the other nations pursue victory.

What people are ultimately upset about is that in MP Dominions if you start next to Vanheim you are hosed. If that is the case, you need to rely on your diplomatic skills to save you.

The thing is, in every massive MP game like Dominions, someone has to be the first two or three players out of the game. It might suck, it might seem like the lottery, but if it wasn't Vanheim, it'd be someone else that people were grousing about. Heck, if all things were equal, the game would eventually stalemate if all players were of equal ability.

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

Hi! I had to swear off Dominions for a month while I finished my spring term classes. Now I'm done with coursework and have only my master's thesis to go, so I've permitted myself a bit of fun again. Good to see things are still stable here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

-Max

Re: Glamour post 3.08
 

Just my two cents on the subject: I agree that total balance cannot be achieved in a specific part of the game: some nations are better for the start of a game (when battles are important to set your initial borders), others are better in the long run (when there is a large empire running).

I don't have that much experience with vanheim, I always thought that Neifelheim was the BEST nation: Niefel Giants with W9N6(+) bless were invincible. warhammer above makes a good point about diplomacy but it is only (half-)supported for MultiPlayer games.

In general, I think that it is good to have different styles in the nations: although this may make them unbalanced, some players may get a far more better playing experience with a style they like more. This variety also increases diplomacy and cooperation in multiplayer games, while in single player... come on, the AI is not _that_ good yet, you can take any nation in the long run if you play carefully.