Re: How to deal with elephants
 

how do you deal with mammoths around turn 10 with ermor MA.. not that easy I think.. I mostly have close combat troops...

any suggestions..

or will my S9W9 blessed vestals be able to deal with them

how much vestels would it take to take down about 10 mammoths?

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

Thaumaturgy : mindburn, paralyze, soulslay.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

I do not have that turn 10 with ermor atm

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

Go for them. They're key spells to ermor, and accessible early. You should at least have mindburn by then.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

Ma Ermor get slingers? Cant remember, those wont kill em but hopefully rout em from wounding em?

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

About the spells, how do you make sure they're cast specifically at the elephants?

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

Single target spells have high hitpoint, big size units as their main priority target, I believe. And elephants have low magic resistance.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

Yep, the elephants will almost always be targeted due to
1 hig hitpoints
2 low mr so tpells actually affect them
3 closeness to caster. Quite soon they will have trampled their way close enough to be a special threat

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

MA Ermor has ethereal high-defence recruitables. They're the last to worry about pesky elephants.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

Yes, shadow vestals with quickness will slaughter elephants with few losses. You might want to put them into smaller groups of 10 with attack large monster orders. So they don't get distracted until all the elephants have gone to the great elephant graveyard.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

in that particular army there are no other creatures

I'm still a bit fussy about how the elephants trample though.. usually everything I put infront of them just.. disappears ... why will that be different for shadow vestals

another question.. : so about 15 shadow vestals with astral and water high bless could beat 10 mammoths?

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

In army like Ulm, with low defense units, you might consider a spell like Will o' the Wisp. I've never used this spell yet, but it strikes me that they might actually be useful. High defense, ethereal, fire burst attack, and three hitpoints- enough to withstand three failed tramples.

Since I've never used it, something I'll remedy ASAP, can anyone tell me how the spell works? If you cast it the first turn, will they arrive in time to intercept the elephants?

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

about my shadow vestals... see 2 postas above... help me please.. I need to decide before next turn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

Why are people talking about defence. IIRC, defence does not apply during trampling attacks.

OTOH etherial should provide the standard defence (ie: 3 out of 4 trampling attacks will be avoided).

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

OK that is usefull information I was not sure about that.. will my twist fate (S9 bless) work too?

still the high HP of the Mammoth might be annoying

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

Oh? Defense? I believe the manual states that defense does apply during trample. Attack doesn't, but defense does. If you succeed in a defense roll, you only take 1 damage, and are still displaced. But that's worlds better than the full trample damage.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

The vestals quickness will mean they will inflict damage very quickly, so kill quickly.

Your vestals are etheral so will be bounced around like the steel ball in a pinball machine. Some will die but it will take some time.

15 vestals vs 10 mammoths, not sure. I would have 30 just to be certain.

Will of the wisps may well do well against elephants. They appear on the map edge, so will be a distraction for the rest of your army.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

Twist Fate will work. Once.

The high hp will slow you down. Vestals aren't real high damage if I remember.

As some one else suggested, archers or slingers will help too. Mammoths are low prot and unshielded. It'll whittle down the hp and hopefully break the morale.

Try spamming fear spells. Frighten, Terror if you've got it.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

What is your magic support ?

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

not much a grand theurg I can do all the blessings but not much more

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

15 Vestal is only 300 Gold, that compare to 10 mammoths at 1200 Gold is certainly not a fair comparation. Still I believe 15 S9W9 shadow vestals will still beat 10 mammoths.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

I don't remember, do elephants stop when they encounter an enemy, or do they just trample straight on through to your back lines?

Hmmm... an awake pretender could definetly help with research, as well as a few other things, but I'll assume for simplicity's sake that you've recruited a Thaumaturg each turn, dedicated to research. (4+40)/2 * 10. So, maybe 220 rp to commit. Say... level three in one school, give or take.

I am curious whether Astral Shield responds to tramplers at all, or only melee attacks.

Well.. have you considered throwing in a few dozen Retarius? Even 10 of them are cheaper than one elephant, let alone ten elephants. And if they manage to net one or two elephants, it'll cover the cost. As a small bonus, they have a higher combined damage of 19+DRN versus the Shadow Vestal's 14+DRN. I hate to recruit one-use troops, but elephants seem like a good enough cause. I'd use the vestals to hold the center, and the retarius to hold the flanks.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

hmm I've just started this game.. what you say will take half the current turns to plan and reach the damn beasts... I wasnt expecting this betrayal. His mammoths are in the provinces a bit away from my capital.. I guess I'll try to avoid them for now just switching provinces a bit and if my (what previously was an expansion) army meets him then hope for the best.

Mean while I'll crush his other armies and race for his capitol

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

Lord Blackadder: How to deal with these rampaging herds of elephants? I need a plan...

Baldrick: My Lord, I have a cunning plan. If I may?

Lord Blackadder: This had better be good - Let us not forget you tried to solve the problem of your mother's low ceiling by cutting off her head.

Baldrick: My Lord, I have heard tales from those who have been to far off "La Brea", and they speak of a thing that devours even the mightiest of elephants without fail.

Lord Blackadder: Oh? And what is this "thing" you speak of?

Baldrick: They call this most dreadful of incantations, "Summon Tar Pit", my Lord.

-Time passes. Some mana and fatigue are spent. The elephants sink beneath a tarry mass the suddenly appears under their feet. Interestingly, some wandering Sabertooth Tigers are also caught in the trap.-

Lord Blackadder: HA! Got them with my subtle plan!

Baldrick: My Lord, that was -my- idea...

Lord Blackadder: Baldrick, you wouldn't see a subtle plan if it painted itself purple and danced naked on top of a harpsichord, singing "Subtle plans are here again!"

Apologies to Blackadder http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

While I have never played MP, every time I face elephants I know who to call.

Wolf tribe warriors. Stick them in the very front with attack large orders. They will have those big boys carved up and on the grill before anyone else can move. If I know it's coming I keep a stack of them in reserve for just this purpose.

Also, how about a food bonus for a turn for each elephant kill. I know my troops are eating them even though I don't see a bonus for it.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

My .02

In my first multiplayer game I was elephant rushed by Arcoscephale. I was playing Machaka and stoped his initial rush with Black Hunters. It seemed to me that the web ability slowed down the elephants enough for me to beat them off. I wonder if any of the troops with nets may be used as well?

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

Aristander, I think black hunters are size 6 and therefore cannot be trampled. Are you sure it's not their size rather than the webs that stopped the elephants ?

As for nets, I think high strength allows to break free from them. And elephants are very strong so the nets would work only for 1 turn. Same for tangle vines. But slime should work : it's MR negates and elephants have an abysmal MR. I'm not sure about earth meld.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

Earth Grip, after which Earth Meld is modeled, is strength-based.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

But it takes a turn to break free. That's a turn you're not being trampled and a turn you can hit them easily.

You'll need a lot of net troops, but you can keep netting them.

Probably doesn't scale. Large enough numbers of elephants should be able to overwhelm any number of net troops, but large numbers of elephants are expensive...

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

I have found that indie woodsman blowpipes are really really good against the pachyderms. I am in a SP game at the minute and dealing with Caelian mammoths.

The blowpipe are easy to recruit (10 gold, 3 resources), they have a ranged attack and they paralyse the beasts. I think it's 25 fatigue per shot and size 6 elephants are, well, easy to aim at. 4 shots and you have a sleeping mammoth that cannot move, cannot defend, and takes lots of critical hits. Plus they cannot run away it's easy to slay them all.

I acknowledge that blowpipes are random indies so they are not a surefire way of dealing with elephants. If you can't recruit them, tough.

Does anyone know if a MR check is necessary for the paralysing poison to work ? I don't think the darts need to inflict damage to paralyse but even with mammoth (prot 13) they fell asleep in no time. Darts should be efficient with other large animals like hydras I guess, or troglodites, minautors and the like.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

"Darts should be efficient with other large animals like hydras I guess, or troglodites, minautors and the like. "

That is very strange. Large creatures should be able to take more poison into thier system before collapsing.

I do not think there is a MR for the poison. That would just be plain wrong.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

The poison on the dart causes fatigue, it does not damage health. And all creatures, whether they are tiny hoburgs or huge elephants, fall asleep at 100 fatigue. So the size does not affect the efficiency of the darts.
Except it's easier to hit a large target, and few large enemies will each be hit more times than many human size soldiers.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

This is kind of funny. If you watch the replay in 3.10, all the elephants run away. But if you watch it in 3.14, then even though the turn messages say you won, you get squished http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

I recently tried Terror/Panic in 3.14 and it didn't work very well ... luckily the Swamp Guard has pretty good defense! Plus I brought along a few indy elephants of my own as blockers. Good thing I did!

In a different game, I'm Mictlan, and got invaded by Troglodytes. A few Turkeys spamming Mesmerize allowed me to wipe them out really easily. And it's available from turn one! I think a bunch of Turkeys would do well against a horde of Elephants too.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

Yes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Replays between versions doesn't seem to be compatible.

I always wondered if that turkey shape with mesmerize attack could get in handy somehow. Nice catch!

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

As Man I got elephant dinner for a full month with this tactic: About 100 longbow archers, Wind Guide + Flamming Arrows. 3 mages casting Howl (the wolfs show up at the sides of the battlemap - distracting the enemy), Swarm and Sleep. I also had a few surviving knights and a large pack of indi light infantry and some surviving man infantry. This killed a large army with lots of infantry and about 40+ elephants.

This was my final battle, close to the source of the elephants - far from my sources of knights (that had been my preferd way to take out small numbers of elephants).

I was lucky and got a indy mage with fire, boosted him and managed to cast flaming arrows. My conclusion; I hate elephants and I do not like people using them!
Go home Hannibal!

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

He he, well done sir! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

Doesn't Construction have a low-level Fire item that does Bonds of Fire? Fire Bola, or something?

-Max

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

It's low-level (const 2) in Conceptual Balance, but it's range: strength. That limits it's usefulness quite badly, because the commanders won't get any shots off before the elephants are close enough to trample them too, if you're unlucky. Also, it's more expensive to mass Fire Bolas than elephants.

Besides that, you also need fire income, and if you get that you can just cast Bonds with your fire mages.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

All i do is thug out something with ethereal and one of the very nice flame weapons. I try to make it a flying unit with the ability to hurt others when its hurt. course thats not really an early age stop to elephants.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

how about mind burn?

<edit> oops, i think this has been covered.

a higher level astral mage may be able to kill an elephant a turn with it, though. armor negating, 12+ damage. I don't know how the "+" is handled.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

+ indicates that the spell's damage, area of effect, number of effects or similar scales.

The amount of scaling is already included in the initial value. Most spells with a plus have a bonus of 2-4 per level. I think Mind Burn is S2 spell listed as 12 points of damage. It could be e.g. [8 + 2*level] or [10 + level] points of damage, so S8 caster would deal 18 to 24 points of average. At most it could be 6*level damage, but I don't think any spell scales that well.

Scaling area of effect is much more useful, most times, as is penetration bonus from extra levels of magic (+1 penetration per two levels above minimum, manual explains it very well). Water 9 pretender and Falling Frost (both damage and AoE scale) is very powerful.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

In any case you certainly couldn't take an elephant down with a single Mind Burn.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

Well, of course not, everybody knows that elephants never forget.

Re: How to deal with elephants
 

But elephants have morale issues, and a single mind burn -could- rout the formation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif