Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

I'm not in ANY way talking about a 3D engine. Simply a better 2D engine with more mod. And perhaps a better algorithm to faster process HUGE games and a slightly better AI. And yes, i do play it in single player mode :D

Is there a chance to create a fund from the people playing Dom3 for the creation of a Dom 4? How much money is actually required to make a new engine? 1000 - 2000 EUR? Is it more than a months work with the existing data for the developers? C'mon it CANNOT be that hard now can it? (im conciously presuming hillarious stuff so that i provoke a reaction)

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

They don't seem to be motivated by money and I believe it would be far harder and more costly (in terms of time, since they are a 2 person team) than you imagine.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

If the devs are not motivated by money, by what then could they be motivated then (other than need of course?)

What are the devs doing at the moment and what other than patching the game? Does anyone know? Any rumors out there?

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

The devs both have full-time jobs and do the games as much as a hobby as for money. Thus they're motivated to work on projects they find interesting, which has worked out very well for us.

They're currently working on a secret new game. Not Dominions 4, but something else.
I find it very unlikely they'll come back to Dominions afterward. Maybe if the new game doesn't work out, but most likely, they and we will be too excited by the new game to worry to much about Dominions.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

That depends on the type(FPS?; RPG?; RTS?), game depth, and replay value of the new game. Take Triumph Studios for example which dropped AgeofWonders:ShadowMagic to create Overlord. The Overlord forums are dead with silence, but the AgeofWonders forums are still alive with activity and even developing a second unofficial patch which is adding new races & units.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

In simplest form: This is not what the devs do to make money. This is what the devs make money (in the day jobs) in order to do (in their spare time).

This comes up alot. Over the years I have been amazed at the tactics used to try and motivate Illwinter. You are asking nicely but I have seen offers to help, downright bribes, challenges, name calling, disparagement of the product, logic, whining, inciting group rebellions, and veiled threats. Not overtly of course but things like "you will lose xxxxxxxx (money, fans, standing, credibility) and fail miserably".

I have often tried and tried to hint that the answers are available online but I saw the same people shoot themselves in the foot time and time again. Some fairly good ideas died I feel entirely due to the challenging way they were presented.

I probably had no problem since the philosophies of Illwinter are so close to my own. I posted frequently stressing the power of "please" and "thank you" in motivating those not driven by money. It did manage IMHO to get some projects moved forward.

I guess that I can now release my "secret file" on the subject. Its probably too late to save any Dom3 projects but maybe people will remember it and take a hint when it comes to asking for things in the next Illwinter project.
http://www.dom3minions.com/files/Dom3_Reasons.txt


Gandalf Parker
--
Some people spend so much effort making money that they seem to forget what it was they were making money for.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Ah, that text file brings back memories from the good old times.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Condolences JK.
I know what it became. You know I did my part to combat it (at least I hope very much I didnt aid in it)

I truly wish you a return to the good times in the present endeavor even if Im not around to try and buffer against the friendly fire.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

I love this line:

We do not, however start out aiming for a greater scale. Start small and
let the organics of creativity work - grow, grOW, GROW ... ping: game
finished! Blubb, blubb, flush! Game doesn't stop growing.

:)

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

JK: Is Gandalf just interpreting there, or was dom3 really somehow ruined for you by a handful of people complaining about certain things in the game?

Maybe I just lack the context, but the comment "Ah, that text file brings back memories from the good old times" doesn't seem to me to be cause for condolences.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Heehee.
I think that if JK and KO were the type of people to state that any action of the community irritated them then we would have heard such things long ago. The quotes are quotes. Read them however you want. They are likely to be about as clear on the subject as is going to happen in a public forum. :)

IMHO of course. (I get to do that now dont I?)

Gandalf Parker

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Of course not, I'm quite happy with dom3. That things were better in the old times just comes naturally with old age, so don't take it too seriously.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

so johan, what would it take to let someone else make dom 4?

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Hahah. That's a bit rude isn't it?

I guess it's testament to what a great game they made that people are gung ho for a fourth one though.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

i don't mean to be rude, i simply seek an answer to the question. And the simplest way to get the answer is straight from the source. They aren't making dom 4 right now, and it's not clear they will ever make a dom 4, so there is a need to explore other options. Since it's still their game, it can only be made with their assent, so asking them what they would want for their assent seems the right action to take. It is quite open ended, as the variety of things people want in this world os quite vast indeed.
Zlefin :)

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Speaking of the good old days, its funny how the old games with bad graphics seemed so much better than most of the stuff on the market today. Aside from Dominions of course, I feel like PC gaming peaked with MOO2 and MMVI. Not sure if its just b/c things were so new back then or b/c I'm just an old codger who had to walk in a blizzard to school uphill both ways :)

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Gandalf, you are one wise man...especially that compiled txt file of yours. I was just about to ask what people had been wanting, "but wanting with force", and what the devs were responding, while reading your post. Thanks alot mate!

I read through the text file. Entirely in line with what I think as well...but I will continue to wish for a Dominion 4 every 6 months or so, if you guys allow me of course!

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Graphics aren't all that important, to me at least, if I like the game story and theme I'll like the game. That's why I still keep playing Lords of the Realm II or M.A.X. which are rather old games.

Most of the new games have little to offer, other than great graphics along with bigger system requirements that demand new computer parts.

MMVI? Would that be Might and Magic VI?
MOO2? Master of Orion?

Better to play a good game with bad graphics than a bad game with good graphics. :)

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

I just did a coiuple of weeks session of revisiting:
Diablo 2
Space Empires IV
Stars!

Now Im about to swing back to grab a couple of Dom3 games, return to the MUD I host (Shadowdale), and possibly return to the player-run Ultima Online world that I semi-host (Shazzys).

Considering present economic situations I love that some old games are so replayable. :)

Gandalf Parker
--
Get a life? No thanks. Just had one.
Im retired now and get to play games all day. (envy me)

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Yep - and I totally agree.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

That's the thing, there are so many older games that I can load up and get right into (or newer ones without much flash, like Stone Soup) and lose myself for hours while new games tend to bore me. First, too often they turn into a PITA just to play (bad DRM issues, driver problems, general bugginess, etc). Then once you do start playing you feel like you've played the game a thousand times before. Nothing original. And what I find amusing is that while today we have superior graphic capabilities every game looks the same! Go back ten years when the visuals had personality. Now you could pretty much drop any model from game X into game Y and it would look right at home. Bleh.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

I'd still rather play DOW 2 than AoE... no offense or anything, but I think that there's still some originality left.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Age of Empires was released 1997, about the same time as: Warcraft 2 and Command & Conquer: Red Alert (1996), Total Annihilation (1997) and Starcraft (1998).

Besides Dawn of War, there're Company of Heroes, Dawn of War, Sins of a Solar Empire, World in Conflict... Some of these will probably be fondly remembered in 2019. Personally, I'll probably try to play these (for the first time) around that time, on my Windows 256, having lots of compatibility problems! :D

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Weimaar,
Have you actually considered playing MP? Single player can only get you so far.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

No I havnt! Single player is great! Fabtastic. There is no game like dominons. Really none.

Now, how fare the dominion4 plans? Any news? Are the developers still mired in something else?

Ive circulated this idea before. How many of you people are prepared to pay a larger sum meaning 500-1000 USD to pay for wages for gifted programmers/modders to start the development of a Dominion clone since the developers are not interested? (I am!)

And by clone, i really mean clone, copy paste plus MAJOR overhaul of graphics and MINOR improvements since this is a design people are USED to and WORKS and is LOVED.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Hey weimaar! I was wondering when you'd shown up again, it's been over a year!

I've heard some rumors that someone is actually building an indipendant Dom4, that's all I can tell ya, not sure if it's true, you can pop by the IRC and ask around doe...

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

The "word" is that "Dom4 is not in the pipeline".
It is NOT the secret project that Illwinter has done some work on.

If you want to ask about a possible 3rd party Dom4 project then your best bet would be either the Dom3Mod website
http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?act=idx
or the SA IRC channel.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Aaaah! Fabulous! Ill go ahead and do exactly that! Thanks for being missed and thanks for the tips :)

(I NEED a Dominions 4, need to see a universe where you in dominions 10 (made 10-15 years from now) can walk around in the streets of one of the towns, picking a fight with the local brigands, sitting on horseback shooting arrows at hydras, banding up with the local vampires and going out on a blood hunt and what have you not!)

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Sure, give me 10 million $ and I will make you simple clone with ok graphics.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Zeldor! Anyone could do a clone for 10 million USD. The question is to try to make it as good as possible as resourceful as possible and not ripping the games soul away while youre at it.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Ive tracked, and still track, many efforts at recreating games. I will give you one tip that I have become quite convinced of. Try very very hard toward recreating the original first.

Ive seen some make it, and Ive seen many fail. And the failures all tend to go too far toward "improving" the game. They end up mired in the changes.

IF someone were to recreate Dom3 from scratch using a modern programming language and libraries then it would be a great start. IF some things that were not considered needed in the original and could not easily be added later such as a database structure, categories, expansive parameters, were included then the size that the game has grown to would not be a problem and would not get in the way of further growth.

IF the game was recreated from scratch and each variable was also builtin as a hook for external scripting then it would allow for expansion. AND (my favorite) IF every choice of speed over better AI was not chopped but was instead set off to a choice switch it would allow for longer hosting times when better results are desired (such as hosting).

THEN and only then should any conversation about changes occur. When a duplicate game has been created from scratch with future desired changes in mind and the code is written to allow those but not implemented. THEN a Dom4 project might be tackled.

Of course this is all just speculation and a pitch Ive given many games. The chances of this happening (legally) with Dom3 are very slim.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Is there any reason they can't just release most of the game as mod commands? That would go a long way towards freshening up the game w/o requiring any work from the developers.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

uhhh they did. Much of the additions patched into Dom3 since its release was in modding. As far as I know, much of what is accessable by a command within the game is a switch, map, or mod command

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Yes, but there are still numerous aspects that are unmoddable, ESPECIALLY item modding.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

As far as I know, thats usually a sign that it cant be easily latched to a mod command.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Well, just recreating would be of course illegal.

Doing similar game would be challenging at least.

And I think that most people don't realize how expensive it would be. I don't think you could go below $500k for any reasonable graphics. And it's not something you can just throw on volunteers.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

It can be done. Ive seen some great remakes come out of SourceForge.net

And some of my favorite MMORPG games now can be run on private servers using player-made recreations of the software. (of course those re-use the graphics and such so its only half a win)

But it would be a huge project. And not likely to be profitable. And OMG the stress! Can you picture every argument we have had here being resurrected as part of a project like this?

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Why not profitable? Dominion is great, but it has very bad UI, bad graphics and too much complexity. Of course we would not want less complexity, but you can always make 2 modes.

How many project out of sourceforge really get done? 1%? When it comes to 3d games it's probably even way less. And then you accept to have extremely long production cycle, many distractions [everyone has different vision] etc. I don't believe in project like that at all - and I have been involved in some really ambitious.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

The amount that would have to be put in versus the amount that could be made?
The more "fix" the less profit.

As for SourceForge and 1%, yes you have that pegged. But like I say often, everything has its pros and cons. The idea of open source and program by democracy are wonderful concepts. There are some fantastic success stories. But most dissolve or just fade out from in-group bickering.

Also against going that route is the idea that this projects goal would be to update Dominions. The more people, and the more discussion, the longer it takes to get things done. And time is why Dom is the way it is now that this project wants to fix. By the time an open source project for a Dom4 got done, the "updated UI, graphics and sound" would be as old-hat as Dom3 seemed when it came out. (not for the same reason, but the same symptom would occur)

I think Im an optimist and I love Dom. But I cant feel that what it would take to drive such a project thru in good time would be able to recoup the costs. There are a number of different routes that could be pursued (paying developers, or a big-boy style publisher willing to advance-invest, or both by letting someone with development studios and teams in place take it over) but I cant picture an improved Dom3 or even a Dom4 being a guaranteed result. It would be a gamble to break even.

Just my opinions of course.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

sounds all very reasonable and well thought through. Gandalf, may i ask what you do for a living? Would you want to become the head of a dom4 (dom3 with graphics makover, the way you describe it) project? Can you become the head of a dom4 project?

Woud it be possible to run this part time project based on donations? One can buy different part of the engine perhaps from other games? or use it from other games? Or ask of permission to get it from other sourceforge games?

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Ive done many jobs in wildly different fields. Email me if you want a list. :)
Im now multiply retired so I dont do anything. I have managed such projects in the past and might at one time have been tempted, but health issues make it impossible now to take on new commitments. In fact Im trying to pull out of the ones I still have.

As to the second paragraph...
Managing donated things has a headache factor to it. Managing donated moneys against donated resources against donated time and skills in a way to stay clear of any suspicion of misuse is something only a few people can do well. Ask any charity admin how 'easy' their job must be to get an earful of that. :) Its easier to use one donated factor to fuel the others as non-donated factors. Not sure if that was clear or not.

You can purchase engines which can vastly cut down the programming time. Some are specific for games. Im out of touch with that area so I cant recommend one. But I remember that the problem falls into the choice of language. Would you prefer to select the language and then search for libraries and programmers? or the other way around? AND what about operating system? Will you maintain the "Linux game ported to Windows and Mac" or go with the easier Windows environment then headache trying to avoid win specific things that might not port well to the others?

SourceForge is a good place to look. What is being used, what they might have developed for themselves. Asking there should be no problem. After all, they are all supposed to be open source so even asking is just a courtesy. (Id never recommend not asking, Im just saying that refusal is unlikely compared to other directions)

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

python has good libs for game dev. SPQR is a good example.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

So in other words, leave it to the proffessionals? :D

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

*sigh* making a good game is soooo difficult. And not all professionals are capable of producing a good game. IMO It's that rare combo of good programming capabilities+creativity+innovation+luck that leads to a good game.

Most games on the market today are soulless run-of-the-mill video game equivalent of junk food. Just my personal opinion, no offense intended.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Junk food is being nice... I'd say many games are radioactive waste. Which means not only are they terrible in gameplay, but they install advertisements, push for account/registration activations, ugly DRM, and some even want monthly memberships.

Even when a company has good intentions, good developers, financial support, and an active community the game can still fail as what happened with Elemental. The biggest mistake made by game companies and developers is they place too high of a focus on graphics at the sacrifice of game content, game balance, game options, game strategy, game depth, etc., etc., . The end result is a very pretty looking piece of garbage.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Yes. It looks like the gaming industry has undergone some serious changes since its early roots in the 70-80s. Back then games were a niche and you'd see innovation and genious all over the place. Today the gaming industry ever more resembles the movie industry - mass production + lowest common denomenator are the name of the game: i.e. if it looks good + you can attach additional sources of revenue then you're doing good so who cares about content, creativity and innovation?- they are, alas, obsolete as they aren't revenue enginees.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Eh, I don't think modern games are that terrible. Also, lets not pretend that all or even necessarily most games of the 70s-80s were super great (Daikatana). I look forward to the release of Diablo 3 right now, and personally I think Battlefield Bad Company 2 is great in its implementation of believable destructible environments. Or the very interesting and tactical play of League of Legends. There's not really any good RTS games that have held my attention recently, but I like SC2 from an SP perspective. I personally refuse to play any game that charges a monthly fee, which means I don't play any MMOs, but they're not all WoW. So forgive me, but I believe you're not giving modern game designers an even chance, and are letting nostalgia hide the absolute hideousness of some of the games from the days of yore.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Um...Daikatana was released in 2000...

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Ahmmm. let's see, MOM, CIV, LoM, starcon, dune, warcraft, HoMM, UFO, MOO, DotC, Disciples, Warlords, Kohan, AoW just to name a few. Show me same or even close level of innovation, creativity & content in a main stream game today.

I gave modern games a chance. Some are passable (HoMM V, Disciples III, Warhammer, Total War). Most IMHO are mediocre at best and downright crappy at worst. Oh and GFX has improved a lot no doubt - GFX is amazing but I'd rather watch a good movie than play a shallow click-festi game.

Perhaps the times have changed and I remain trapped in anachronistic expectations. Fact is, I only play old games: dominions, disciples, AoW & chess although I have a number of new games installed on my hard drive. Typically I'd start new game X, say wow to amazing gfx, play a bit, then get bored and annoyed by bugs, inconsistencies and shallow mechanism and end up never playing it again.

Re: Will there be a Dominions 4
 

Really? I never actually saw it, but the gaming mag I used to subscribe to talked about it like it was back in the mists of time :D Still, I'd rather play Red Alert 3 than C&C 1.

Edit: I didn't play a number of those games, but Civ just got better and better with the sequels. Warcraft was terrible, I would never subject myself to that now, or Dune. As for modern games, I think that the issue is more that you seem to prefer a genre that doesn't really exist anymore. Turn based games just aren't very common anymore. Just because a game like Starcraft 2 doesn't have the incredible amount of minutiae that a TBS can have doesn't make it a mindless clickfest, its just a constraint of the RTS genre where the player doesn't have TIME to micromanage as many features as a TBS has.

I highly doubt that the number of bugs and inconsistencies has really changed dramatically, that's just the way computer gaming is.