Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

You really cannot expect to have the forge up when clamming. With a hammer the price is 11 water 3 nature (and takes one turn to equip since it appears in the lab) - i.e 15 turns for payoff (provided you value gems equally, but thats another discussion)..

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

I'm not saying you're always going to have the forge up. But a discount of the hammer is quite good.

Actually for some reason I thought the normal cost of the clams was 15 gems total, so when people were making comments on it I thought they were not including the hammer reduction.

I blame the anestetics.

Jazzepi

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

My point is that if the cost was raised a bit more i think the problem would be solved. No one hoards sea kings, even when they can get a reduction from a magic site.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

I think you're still missing the point Cor. You can't summon sea kings without summoning a huge mess of trolls who are all very expensive in their gold upkeep. I think they're *great* units as shock troops with lots of hitpoints, armor on some and good regen, but you simply can't sustain the same amount of production there as you can with clams.

Also anyone who wants to horde a gem producing item, and not just clams, can reduce the cost with hammers which are easily accessible. Maigical sites that reduce the summoning cost, are not. I think most of them range in the 20% range.

Though, in all fairness, one summoning site can be used by as many mages.

Jazzepi

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

I think clams are fine as they are, but I wouldn't mind seeing some anti-clam/gem producer spells just to add another layer of tactical complexity.

Maybe a global that stops all clam (maybe fetish and stones too) production while it's up. Or paradoxically makes them only function outside of a water province. A global that destroys 5% of them every turn it's up would be nice too, without, I think, being overpowering since any clam producer worth his salt has tons of astral gems for dispel.

Or maybe a province targeting spell that would shatter a certain % of items in a specific province, with lower cost items being more vulnerable and items over a certain gem cost being immune. A spell like this would not only add a clam-counter, but would be tactically useful elsewhere and limited by your ability to scout.

I also think clam income should be added to the graph.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

Sombody mentioned destroy all clams wish. that would be fun.

As for the problem of the sea troll upkeeps. Yeah it sucks to have to pay all those troops as you use them to destroy your opponents. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

Well, seems to me that if the consensus is that the real problem with clamming is related to scaling then the solution should also be scalable - otherwise you're just adjusting the window of efficiency (if you adjust the cost for example). Something like each clam being more expensive than the one before it would work, but would probably be difficult with the game engine since nothing else is done that way. An expensive anti clam spell would work to, combined with the gems showing in the score graph (though having it dispellable seems a poor way to make it a counter to overwhelming clams). It might be interesting (if not terribly thematic) if clams had a chance to horror mark each person in the province - spread out too much and they become more vulnerable like blood hunters, concentrate them too much and your rate of return gets shot to hell as horrors keep eating them.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

I like Cheezeninja's idea of a shatter spell targeted at a province. Items could be affected based on their construction level or something (very low/no chance of destroying an artifact, but cons-2 clams would be quite vulnerable). The spell wouldn't be that destructive if there were only a few items in the province (although if you nail a few of a SC's items right before he goes into battle it could still hurt), but if there were a lot, it could destroy items that add up to many times its own cost.

If you don't want only one path to have this type of countermeasure, there could be several anti-item spells: one that shatters items, one that causes them to burst into flame possibly killing their wielders, one that summons a swarm of thieving magpies that steal magic items (most items stolen are kept by the magpies, but a few may be brought back to the caster), one that horror marks anyone in the province with an item and *greatly* increases the chance of horror attacks on item-holders in that province that turn, etc. Those spells in turn could be blocked by domes, but that adds to the cost (and domes have their own weaknesses depending on the type of dome being used; retaliation domes couldn't prevent the destruction of 50 clams, just kill the mage who did it.)

How effective are ordinary army blasters (Flames from the Sky, Murdering Winter, etc.) against a province full of clamholders? Magical assassinations (Earth Attack etc.)? Hiding under the sea will protect you from some of those spells (maybe a few too many), but not all.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

Province targeted item destruction spell is way too abusable. SCs and Thugs would get trashed. Worst use: target air/water breathing items.

Clams would be the least of it's effects.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

Well I am against nerfing of clams, I do like the idea of the introduction of anti-clamming spells. So you have a counter strategy to clams.

A global that destroys 10%/per turn of all gem producing items in the world, would stop gem spamming abuse.

You could balance the introduction of such a global by reducing the cost of the gem producing magic items back to what they where in Dom2.

So the gem producing items where useful early on but not a effective long term strategy because there was a counter in the form of a global.

The global would after be relatively cheap, 40-60 gems so could be recast over and over to avoid it being just dispelled too easily.

The clams, blood stones and fever fetishes would still be useful as a mirco-management saving tool. Instead of giving a scout a pile of gems to refill your mages when they use there gems in battle. Just give him a clam or bloodstone or fever fetish to produce them on the way.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

Can we call this thread "On the Nerfing of Clams"?
Please?

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

Clams should only work underwater. Problem solved!

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

I don't think clam hoarding can actually get out of hand unless it is very late game, or the power starts as a nation that gets water gems from it's national site, but here are a few ideas:

Mental Drain!
Each clam "creates" it's pearl from the mental and magical energy of it's holder. While this has little effect on the battlefield, the daily drain slows research considerably.
-1 or -2 rp per turn
(thus clams DO COST RESEARCH to have on those research mages)

This change can be added by simply adding a negative Sage bonus to the clams item description.

The Care And Feeding Of Clams:
Clams cost gold upkeep

Hungry, Hungry Clams!
Each clam "consumes" one water gem and produces 1-2 astral gems per turn
clam cost adjusted appropriately

Power Drain:
Clams have a negative effect on holders... lower MR for example. Making them more vunerable to spells and assasins.

Bloodstones:
Horror marking at a real level of power
or
The research penalty.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

SCs and Thugs have been getting weakened since Dom I and they *still* dominate. I'd say try this out before concluding that it will be abusive.

Breathing items would indeed be a very nasty use of anti-item spells. But one of the themes of the Dominions series is that anyone can die, except Immortals in friendly dominion. As long as the chance of destroying any particular item isn't too high, I don't think it'd be that bad; the spell(s) would have their costs set to be only truly effective against large clusters of items.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

Item-destroying global spell is the worst idea I've heard for a long time. Item-destroying combat spell is the second worst idea I've heard.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

Item-destroying global spell is the best idea I've heard for a long time. Item-destroying combat spell is the second best idea I've heard.

Both of them promise to significantly change up the game if implemented. Ask anyone- what school of magic is most vital. One of the top picks, if not the top pick, is construction. You can't thug/SC without it. Destroying items changes the dynamic of the game significantly, improving the power of battlefield troops and mages.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

An army with proper magical support can take down most SCs with little problem. I don't see why anyone would really want to make the 100 gem investment most SCs represent any weaker than they already are. They're great for raiding and killing PD since their strength is in their mobility, but they fold up and die to a significant enemy magic presence as it is. (Earth buffs on the troops, the other elements if they lack resists, mass horror marks or soul slays, disintegrate/drain life, and charm (not optimal due to MR and short range, but a scary prospect for the SC's owner)

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

It takes thousands of gold worth of mages to implement any of those (except maybe the earth buffs, which takes thousands of gold *and* resources worth of army + a few hundred gold mage).

Anyway, if item-destroying spells (I wasn't suggesting a combat spell, but a province-targeting ritual attack; a combat item destroyer would be interesting against SoS and a few other item-based strategies, but wouldn't solve the clam problem) had a low chance of affecting any particular item, then one guy with 5 items probably wouldn't be hit at all, or lose at most one of his items. They'd be designed for the province where 20 (or 50!) guys are hanging out with a clam and a lantern each.

I think they would shake the game up in a good way.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

Except that the clams would likely be behind a dome, and would be hard to target.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

The problem with clams/fetishes/stones is they end giving more gems that all magic sites... If gems generated are capped by map size, it will not be a problem, will it?

Killing clam holders is very hard. In a castle, behind many domes, guarded by army, maybe even hidden... good luck!

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

Right, domes. So your clams will be shielded by a dome and this item destroying spell will only be useful against thugs and for armies out of their element.

As a thematic suggestion: What about having gem-producers only work if equipped on a mage with that path? More limiting for some than for others. How much affect that would have I don't really know.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

</lurk>

I thought their "intended" purpose was to provide armies w/ a continuous source of gems. When I do that, I usually stick them on scouts moving with my troops.

Your proposal might not be a bad idea if there was some way of distinguishing moving armies from mages safely researching in friendly territory.

<lurk>

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

This can be easily done by giving clams a -research penalty. Right where the Lightless Laterns get a + they get a -. Reflecting time spent caring for and feeding the clam.... or energy drain from the claim.

This gives clams an ongoing expense in term of RP points lost.

Of course, at The End Of Time with L-9's in all schools this cost means nothing... but at The End Of Time balance is a truly strange thing anyway.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

indy commanders are really cheap and don't really do much researching, so any research penalty tied to clams is just going to result in a near-negligible nerf (in the form of a 40 gold commander cost and a less-than-3g upkeep, less if you have scouts instead of commanders) and a lot more micro.

And Chris, I believe a 2000 gold combat group can take down an SC in most cases. That's not all that much gold. Or use a 55-gem Troll King's Court + earth boots to kill most 100-gem SCs. Astral and Blood both utterly destroy SCs.

People like SCs because they're easy and mobile. No multi-mage scripting or having to shuttle troops in from different forts to assemble a decent-sized army, no supply issues (including gems for mages, always a pain). They're good investments, and can certainly tear through *unsupported* armies of chaff, but they have plenty of weaknesses to a properly prepared opponent.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

Would it be possible, I wonder, to have Clams only function on mages? With that rule, the research penalty would be a reasonable little fix.

I'm playing with Patala right now in SP, and the clamming is utterly ridiculous. A tiny bit of luck in getting water gems, and by a dozen turns in you can pound out a clam every turn.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

How come I can only vote once? It is a Louisiana tradition to vote as many times as you want until the desired poll result is achieved! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

EA R'Lyeh has been mentioned as a clam hoarder nation. But this is not available to stock mages without the right set-up. Aboleths and Mind Lords get no chance at nature magic (although Aboleths have a chance for W3 and Mind lords have W3 minimum). Slave Mages do have a shot at 1N but it's one chance of 4 possibilities from their random pick. If they do get 1N from their random pick, they will still need a +1 water item or empowerment to be able to make clams in the stock game. If the Slave Mages get to 3W by random pick, they have to not only be empowered to N1, they have to stay under water or get a booster if on land, to make the clams. The Aboleths and Mind Lords lack hands to use the hammers to reduce the forging cost is another consideration.

You pretender can (and I usually do so) be built to make clams, but at least 4 of the available chases to EA R'Lyeh don't have hands to take advantage of hammers either. Since you also want at least A1 on your pretender as EA R'Lyeh, this should be taken into consideration as well.

The more investment you have to pay to make the clams, the longer it takes them to pay dividends. I do find them quite handy, but tend to use them in moderation.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

Just make clams unique and give em 25 different names.. or 50.. or whatever.. then you could steal them from eachother with wish etc and there would be a limit to them too.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

This is a rather negligible difficulty, barring extreme misfortune in randoms.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

While not exactly difficult it's not negligible either. It's 1 in 4 of a random pick and then you still need to also get +1W on top of that 1N as they only have 2W. And I've had it up to 10 slave mages in a game with zero N before.

And I wanted to place more stress on the fact that you have to pay even more gems upfront to get clammers rather than any actual difficulty.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

Here is a suggestion, replace the Clam item with a "Summonable Clam" unit which produces one astral per turn.

It can be placed in the construction tree with the same W3N1 requirements.

This way, you can add another variable to it, its upkeep cost. It would also make the the "Clam" unit vulnerable to assassination spells. It can be made immobile, feebleminded, vulnerable to fire, cold, lightning, poison, etc. Maybe even add the cause misfortune attribute if there is one.

The big thing would be the upkeep cost. If the upkeep cost is say 40 gold per turn, that would certainly restrict the magnitude of clam hoarding.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

Ideas not bad, but I think 40g (600 base) is too high per, possibly 10 (150) - 15ish(225).

It would reduce the effectiveness of, or at least add to the idea of carrying gem producers with an army. Scouts etc with gems would still work though.

If going that route, could also give it a moderate chunk of HP (20ish), keep it mobile and very vanilla but give it disease, 2 move, terrible stats and possibly afflictions.

heck, just increase the naiad cost a bit and give it the enchantress' gem producers ability. Make it cost a good bundle (40-45ish) but give a useful unit added utility. Take longer to pay back the investment, but in the meantime you get 3W3N that you might need anyway. If someone wants to make 100 of em, go nuts. Not really a great idea, as I still think the first 10-15 clam-type effects shouldn't incur a real penalty.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

Empowering a shaman to clam once you hit construction 6 is only 85W, plus another 35 for a Naiad after that (for 2/turn), or 10 clams worth of water gems. After that everyone's able to forge them. While a 10 pearl/turn advantage is really nice it's hardly game-breaking. That's also a worst-case scenario as far as finding indy mages or access to Naiads goes, especially since enchantresses are fairly common. The clamming nations also get a slight bump in early-game production, but non-clam nations can make that up by casting a gem global with their stocked gems once the research is available to do so. Again, an advantage for the clammers, but not one that's broken compared to other game options, especially considering how lousy water magic is. If your nationals have W they're giving up some other path that's more useful in other areas.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

The issue is they are unbalancing when being made at 2-3 a turn and start to number well over a hundred, amounting to a free wish every turn.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

Yes, my point was that by the time that happens any nation can have 90 clams, compared to the 100 that a naturally-clamming nation can have. Not a big deal.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

Not everyone wants to clam though. Personally I find it boring. And i do not like to see any one strategy as necessary to win a game.

And not every race can use the astral gems. It takes s9 to wish.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

Xietor - When you're talking about popping wishes every turn the cost to empower a wisher is pretty trivial. Assuming you can find an S1 mage to start with it's only 210 pearls to get to S5, which is about the highest nationals go...2 wishes, or 2 turns of income at that point of the game. I can't see how this could POSSIBLY be a realistic argument given your proposed gem income.

Likewise, you not liking a tactic is not a valid reason for it to be removed. Some people don't like SCs, some people don't like blood magic (which, incidentally, is a much bigger MM issue than clams, especially if you want to blood sacrifice), some people don't like blesses. I'm sure people don't like a lot of other stuff in the game as well, but each of these things adds more variety and complexity to the game. If clamming was *broken* then there would be an issue with it, but it's not unbalanced, it's just something you don't like.

Also, given the moddability of Dominions it's a very easy fix to get rid of the clams with a simple mod for the games you play in, so I'm not sure what the big crusade to get rid of them entirely is about, since they're not really unbalanced (incidentally I think the aquatic nations need the help given their very limited expansion options during the midgame.)

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

Micah,

your points are all valid. I am just stating my opinions, but obviously every player has different opinions on issues-and they are all valid. How to make a game "better" is all subjective.

I have made my last post on this thread.

Re: Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?
 

This isn't directly related to clams (since I agree that mods fix the problem I have with larger games and think they are fine in smaller games) but...

Not liking a tactic *is* a valid reason for you to advocate for change. Everything is subjective. If a tactic is easy/boring/etc... I don't see why someone shouldn't champion change if they feel it improves the game.

Again I'm not saying I completely agree with Xietor in this case...