Re: Dark Knight
 

could I get the basics on archer decoying?

Re: Dark Knight
 

Very simple, take 1-2 units, put them in a group by themselves, in the very front and center. Put the rest of your stuff slightly behind and to the sides. Enemy archers will target the decoys until the decoys die or go out of range.

Re: Dark Knight
 

I've never thought archer decoying was unintended.

Could you point me to a threat where the devs said archer targeting isn't working correctly?

Re: Dark Knight
 

What a brilliant idea! I can see how it works. Not a cheat by any means, but definately an exploit. I can't believe I have not even seen it mentioned in the 9 months I've been following this forum.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

Re: Dark Knight
 

Wow, seriously Velusion? Huh. I know players who have even quit dominions over the archer decoy exploit. I'm surprised to hear that you dont think it is one.

As for a thread about it, I don't have one handy no. It was discussed (along with several other tactics commonly used in MP play) during the beta. And IIRC the "small squads morale rule" was put in to try and address it. Tho I think the most popular option to address it was Fire Closest/Fire Largest. Unfortunately, that wasnt accepted.

Re: Dark Knight
 

Heh. Thats because the tactic is SO COMMON in mp play as to not require mentioning http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif What surprises me is that you havent seen someone use it against you.

Re: Dark Knight
 

It probably wasn't mentioned because (atleast for me) it was considered common knowledge - although I could be wrong.

Re: Dark Knight
 

I do not think using exploits is common in mp games. In my 40 or so mp games, I have had the attack commander exploit used against me 1 time.

Some people on this forum remind me of players in WOW and EQ that exploited bugs to level their characters, then when caught, cried because their characters were deleted. Many of these players argued that they did not consider "whatever" to be an exploit. Those arguments fell on deaf ears.

Just because a bug exists within the programing of a game does not make it "right" to exploit it.

In any event I am glad the matter is resolved.

Re: Dark Knight
 

As nice as it is to be able to see things in black and white, the world, and even the dominions world, is a messy place. Even assuming the issue is 'resolved' (i.e., all future use of the tactic that has not been explicitly allowed is considered cheating), that doesn't really answer the question of what qualifies as an unacceptable exploit, and moves the line to much fuzzier place.

Re: Dark Knight
 

I thought the archer decoy was common knowledge as well.
It's one reason to break your archers into squads- you shouldn't always fire closest. The targeting of 'fire none' can be handy.

I sometimes put some tough units in the rear, instead of my mages, so attack rear commands don't quite go as planned. I often have to deal with short range spells, so sometimes I even have my mages in the frontline, with a small bodyguard. Not often, but sometimes.

Re: Dark Knight
 

The answer QM, to your question is this: if you think what you are planning to do is questionable, post on the game thread and ask the other players if it is acceptable.

In Alpaca, Valerius captured the Dark Knight, and posted
the question as to whether it would be proper to copy the commands and use them on other commanders. The other players informed him it was an exploit-and he should refrain from doing it. But he was thanked by everyone for his honesty.

If in doubt-ask. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Re: Dark Knight
 

That is not a very satisfactory definition. First of all, it doesn't really measure what is most exploitive, only what people are most accustomed too. For instance, people are very unlikely to outlaw archer decoying, not due to any particular judgement about it's abusiveness, but simply because people are so accustomed to using it. Further, even if it was decided exploitive, it would be almost unenforceable since it's impossible to say if that smallish group of units near the front is actually a decoy.

On top of that, it assumes a basic intuition of what would be considered an exploit, which implies another definition.

Re: Dark Knight
 

I thought archer decoying only worked if the archers were explicitly scripted to fire closest - if you leave them on AI (or fire none) they'll ignore close groups that are too small to be worthwhile.

If that's the way it works then I think it should stay - if their God orders them to fire at the closest unit, they'll do so even if it's two militiamen.

Re: Dark Knight
 

As for decoys, that is not an exploit. When a tactic is listed in the strategy guide that you buy with the game, you are assured that that conduct is not an exploit.

Re: Dark Knight
 

Cris: It usually works on default order archers too.

Xietor: I doubt if IW did more than skim most the strategy entries in the manual. And archer decoying was in fact a known issue that there were attempts to resolve.

Re: Dark Knight
 

This comment is completely at odds with my experience in the beta test. IMO, archer decoying is an exploit of the targetting AI. That fact is brought even more to bear by the efforts of the devs to remove it. Its just so commonly used that no one wants to paste the "exploit" label on it, unlike the situation of the bogus orders.

Re: Dark Knight
 

Does archer decoying still work if you have fire none orders, or does it only work when you're set to fire closest?

Re: Dark Knight
 

What about exploits that are unobservable on the battlefield?

Specifically, I am thinking about using Telestic Animates to reanimate undead. But I am sure there are others.

Re: Dark Knight
 

As far as I am concerned, the game host can stipulate any house rules he wishes
before the game has started. It's the players choice to join after all. Once the
game is on, and players have invested some time in it, it is too late to forbid
anything that is not a clear abuse of a bug. I think that setting decoys for
archers is just fine. So is scripting Bogus to attack commanders. Copying his
orders looks fishy to me, but I would not vote to exclude it, even if I weren't
the one who usually ends being visited by him and his friends.

Re: Dark Knight
 

It works with no order archers too.

Re: Dark Knight
 

I think items like re-animating dead with a statue are just a flavor of whatever nation gets that ability. I might summon priestly "goody" statues, they summon nasty dark zombie creating statues. Shrug.

IMO things like bogus's band of merry men are something that can happen to anyone. Capture and atainment of any of the units is a spoil of war, a specific bonus to those with the right paths (or that spend the effort to get into those paths, any nation has at least the potential), blood/nature only? Enslave mind/GoR work? Seduction? Using the associated orders are again a spoil of war, as K.O. said, kind of like new training as a reward. And its not really easy.

Fire mages isn't that powerful, nice if it works, but not more powerful then the right spell. Attack commander is a bit different, there are so many weak mages/ferries sitting in the back that the payoff could be significant. I'm still thinking that payoff should only be significant once, then its just another aspect to deal with like various nasty battle spell capability or a nasty SC/item combo.

Again, IMO - the archer decoy is actually the worst of the bunch as it takes advantage of something the player has the least control over - AI. Yes there are methods of dealing with it (changing orders being the easiest), but it can have significant initial impact as well.

I also find it ironic that some can declaim something as inherently exploitable when so much of the game is exploitable. I think soul drain/master enslave is exploitable - what are you really going to do against it? Darkness? Has a counter..but pretty nasty for a reasonably common enchant. Arrow fend against my archer army? Nothing I can do. Storm against my flyers, etc, etc... there are tons of things that can be considered exploits in specific situations - you can do something I can't counter or that the developers didn't anticipate. That's my definition of an exploit...and I'm assuming there are plenty of definitions. One of the reasons I find the game both fantastic and occasionally frustrating. So many things to do, nasty combos and such... but still enough freedom to TRY to find an answer.

Re: Dark Knight
 

"Using the associated orders are again a spoil of war, as K.O. said, kind of like new training as a reward. And its not really easy."

Fortunately Ko's opinion trumps all. The issue is settled. Move along citizens.

Re: Dark Knight
 

Well, juterea, I haven't done a thorough survey of reanimation, but here's my experiences with ea ctis and Yomi. I've come to the conclusion that reanimation is tied directly to whether a unit is undead or demon.

Yomi - Demon Priest (human): No
Yomi - Oni General (demon, h0+3) Prophet: Yes
Yomi - Dai Oni (demon, h1): yes
Yomi - Hannya (hannya, h0+3) Prophet: yes
Yomi - Telsestic Animate (astral summon h2): no
Ctis - High Priest: No
Ctis - Undead Lizard Chariot hero: yes
Ctis - Bane Lord (undead) Prophet: Yes.

Re: Dark Knight
 

That overlooks the nations (like ME Ermor) who get reanimation for all priests.

Re: Dark Knight
 

Umm. What is the counter against Darkness. Sorry to get off topic, but I've always wondered, and have had my *** kicked by it a couple of times now.

Re: Dark Knight
 

Solar brilliance.

Re: Dark Knight
 

Depends upon your enemy and nation. If you've got astral magic, Solar Brilliance will clear it right up for you.

If you've got fire, Purgatory will be the counter you use against Ermor.

If facing Agartha as Ctis or Caelum, Quagmire/Grip of Winter won't counter, but will be quite tough on them. If they're asleep, you're going to hit ALL the time, and nightvision races rarely have exceptional attack/def scores. An extra bit of fatigue may be of some help.

If you're Abysia, and your opponent is using Darkness to make all your spells miss, you'll have to settle for Combustion, Blindness, Conflagration, Rage, Hydrophobia, Incinerate, or other precision one hundred spells.

Re: Dark Knight
 

There you go talking in absolutes again. Its not settled. Unless the functionality is completely removed from the game it is a viable ability. If the game host bans it at the start of a game, no problem. If the players (and/or host) agree to its use, no problem. Any game can have house rules.

For those nations that can have indy priests re-animate, I'd rather have the 5 gems instead of the 50g - usually. For those that can't, it might need a house ruling although I don't have the experience with it to say how powerful it is.

Re: Dark Knight
 

*wink*

Re: Dark Knight
 

1. Use undead or demon troops is one counter to darkness.

2.Script your mages to cast spells that have 100 percent precision-they still hit 100 percent in darkness. drain life, charm, frozen heart etc.

3. Equip your mages with items that cast spells that have 100 percent precision. herald lance, drain life staff.

4. cast battlefield spells like wraithful skies( along with storm warriors), rain of stones etc that can kill off the enemy troops.

5. buy indies with dark vision-shamblers, atlantean militia etc.

6. aoe spells

7. Assassinate mages that are casting darkness-earth attack, mind hunt, manifestation, wings of monkey, vengeance of the dead.

8. burn up his gems by casting ghost riders before the battle.

Re: Dark Knight
 

I absolutely do not think it is settled. I will use the orders on Bogus and his
friends, in any game which does not explicitly state that it is not allowed.

Re: Dark Knight
 

I don't even think its an issue considering how easy it is to counter these abilities, like:

Fire Mage: Wear an item with Air Shield, or just put decent armor on your mages or put a few mages with good armor slightly up front. This is the same thing one does when someone uses the normal Fire Rear Command against you.

Attack Commanders: Put chaff around your commanders. When the attackers fly over, they die from regular missiles or magic or even your chaff's attackers.

Heck, when was the last time you lost anything to Bogus and his friends? Except for the turn he appears, I never take losses against him, regardless of the nation I'm using.


Considering that its far easier to kill commanders simply by getting a troll king and casting Earthquake over and over, or casting the Fire spell that hits the whole battlefield, or casting Foul Vapors, or Wrathful Skies, or any of the many other many spells that kill commanders and mages easily, I don't know why people are tripping.

I basically think that some people are always willing to call someone else's good tactic or advantage an exploit. Considering that some people swear that clamming and fever fetishes are a cheat, and Arcane Nexus is gamebreaking, and Utterdark is unplayable, and blood magic is for power gamers, and undead reanimation is unfair, and SCs are broken....people say these kinds of things all the time about just about everything.....and I just don't give them any credit.

Re: Dark Knight
 

Ahh. I see, I see. Literally.

Re: Dark Knight
 

Isn't there a paragraph in the manual stating that this is a good tactic to use? Why would anyone ever think that something described explicitly in the manual is an exploit?

Re: Dark Knight
 

Complaining about things being unbalanced is not the same as saying something is an exploit. All the things you mention are in the rules and condoned by the devs. People ***** about them, but they don't consider them "cheating". Exploits break the written rules and are not condoned by the devs.

Re: Dark Knight
 

"I absolutely do not think it is settled. I will use the orders on Bogus and his friends, in any game which does not explicitly state that it is not allowed."

No one has suggested you cannot use the orders on the charmed mobs themselves-it is copying them to the rest of your commanders/units that is the exploit. If I was unclear, it may be because I missed a post here or there. But I think Ko and LLamabeast were clear on that point.

It is the use of the copy order command to bring back the overpowered command that is the exploit. I agree that there should be some reward for capturing bogus and his friends.
And that reward is using them as they are.

Re: Dark Knight
 

The archer decoy is common knowledge to MP players. Alas and alack, I am solely a SP.

Re: Dark Knight
 

As an aside, does anyone know where the word "mob" comes from?

(I believe it's used in e.g. WoW to mean 'enemy', and there doesn't have to be a group of them as in the normal sense of a mob).

Re: Dark Knight
 

"Mob" predates WOW. It was used in the States in EQ back in the 90's. It refers to a creature controlled by the game's AI.

Not sure of its origination, but given the vocabulary of many 15 year old players of the game, that may never be known.

Re: Dark Knight
 

The first time I heard the word "mob" used was around 20 years ago, during the days of ftp "multi-user dungeons" (mud) games. "Mob" refers to computer controlled "mobiles", which are units that move from room to room.

Re: Dark Knight
 

Yep, that's where it originated. Abbreviation of mobile or mobile object. It's much older than wow or other modern mmorpgs.

Re: Dark Knight
 

Ah, thanks guys, good info.

Re: Dark Knight
 

They doesn't have the tactical, strategical or practical sense to order their fellows to do stuff in an orderly fashion. Works much like headmasters at schools, CEO's and other bosses. Most can make the organization around, but some are quite lousy at getting people work as a unit with a common goal.

In game terms they might just panic and shout 'fire', instead of telling their subordinates to 'fire at their incoming knights'.

Seems reasonable to me. Most mages have low leadershgip values to represent that they are unused to giving order during stressful situations such as battles.


Edit: Hmm, this was an answer to a post some pages back about lousy commanders. Didnt realize there was so many posts after that one.

Re: Dark Knight
 

LOl this thread is going nowhere last 20 or more posts.. only the die hards on a certain stand post and they won't agree with eachother anyway.. lol

let the thread die pplz http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Dark Knight
 

I think trying to "ban" "exploits" is generally an exercise in frustration and futility. With all due respect, what does it matter what the devs intended? We're not playing the game they intended, we're playing the game they made. The devs are not some infallible source of inspired wisdom, and I happen to like the many, many non-obvious tricks you can pull by leveraging combinations of things that in all probability didn't occur to the original designers. QM has laid out several good examples, but heck trying to define what is "good and clever strategies" and "exploiting unintended consequences" is absolutely inane - there is so much complexity to this game that I'd guess *most* of the more subtle interactions were not explicitly intended - they threw in every cool thing they could think of, then removed/tweaked stuff for balance. Voila, out comes a phenomenally complex and nuanced game that a bunch of hardcore strategy nerds can play for years and years *because* there are so many neat little tricks you can pull out of the millions of ways you can combine things.

I can see banning the mists of deception exploit not because it's unintended but because its game breaking. This Bogus thing is not even close. I'll also try to:

ritual of rebirth the genie
cast vengeance of the dead on SCs until they auto rout
deploy every kind of decoy I can to fool the targeting AI
leverage every forge bonus I can wrangle to forge gem producing items
teleport a thug in prior to a big battle to try and make the enemy expend their gems before the main event
set my raiders to hide rather than attack so that the stealth is resolved before any magic retaliation
use fear to get enemies to route from an assassination
slap boots of quickness on every banner of the damned I ever forge
Fire and flee with death blessed archers
use the fact that globals (AC, AN, etc) take effect one turn before anyone can react
double/triple bless rush
use diplomacy and trade to my advantage -leverage my allies to help with things like harvesting gems from the sickle, pool gems for globals, gang up on weaker nations, etc.
order my communions so that the slaves can cast spells and give them banners of the damned

I do that not because I'm a prick who will do anything to win, but because that's the game I'm playing. The whole point of this game is to find clever tricks (read strategies). If something breaks the game experience by being too exploitive, I expect the devs to fix that (and they do a great job), but pretty much if it's in the game its fair play.

Re: Dark Knight
 

I'm firmly in this camp, but could not have phrased it as eloquently. Nice job.

Re: Dark Knight
 

I 3rd this!

Re: Dark Knight
 

Its wholly subjective as to what "breaks" the game or not. If (and yes, I know it's extremely unlikely) the bogus trick were to cause me to lose a very important battle(s) in a game I spent hours on - then yea I would say it breaks the game.

Any game needs a definitive source to say "Ok this is over the line" and traditionally this has always been the creators, otherwise you might as well say ANY exploit is ok to use because no one will ever agree what is game breaking.

Someone could easily argue that the mists of deception exploit is not really an exploit. Indeed, from a rules perspective the bogus trick is WORSE from my point of view because it specifically contradicts explicit wording in the rulebook, while MoD does exactly what it says it does - no contradictions, no explicit rule breaking.

What you are advocating is anarchy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif. Its the same sort of stuff that ultimately ruins many MMORPGs.

It doesn't matter what they intended, however it does matter what they say is acceptable because I'd rather THEY determine what is "game-breaking" rather than player "X" who might have a vested interest.

At least it does in my games.

Re: Dark Knight
 

I think what Velusion and llamabeast has done-which is ban the copy attacl commander order on the games they host is a good thing.

Everyone should be playing by the same rules. Since it is banned on games they host, you know that going into the game. if you want a free for all anything goes game, obviously you avoid games hosted on those servers.

The person hosting the game can set any parameters he likes-banning arcane nexus for instance. As long as it is done up front, you agree to abide by the rules when you sign up to play the game.

Re: Dark Knight
 

I 4th! If its physically in the game and not banned by a house rule, then its fair to use.