Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Perhaps we are not so evil as people would make us out to be....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not at all. You guys are not evil. I'm merely suggesting that some of your country's policies can be counter-productive, and some of the common views in your country are not entirely the fact.


[This message has been edited by CW (edited 19 July 2001).]

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CW:
Not at all. You guys are not evil. I'm merely suggesting that some of your country's policies can be counter-productive, and some of the common views in your country are not entirely the fact.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some would imply that we're pretty bad. (Or perhaps the term "barbarian" was used in its original meaning, "foreigner", which would be accurate for anyone not from the U.S. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif )

My response was specifically related to your statement that implied that for us, money is everything. While that may be true for some, as it is in other countries as well, it is definitely not true for all.

As for the rest, I agree with you that not all commonly held views in this country are accurate. I would also state that not all commonly held views ABOUT this country are accurate.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Gee, thanks, I'll remember that the next time I send a letter to my Congressman about aid to other countries. You know, like the debts accumulated during WW2/1 that I think ONE nation payed back? The Marshal plan? (I'd quote more recent, but I don't have specifics offhand) The various relief organizations too, though not all of those are government funded.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, right - US foreign aid is something special? While you give away some money to the third world you also collect interest from the same - an amount that is more than three times higher than the so called "aid" you are giving. That is barbaric indeed.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:

Guess you'll have to get off the internet too then, seeing how it was designed mostly by US scientists..
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While internet (along with most of the computerparts inside my computer today) has been invented in the US most of my computer nerd friends agree that the development of computers would have come much farther if Bill Gates had nothing to do with it.

Bill gates' methodology (take what you can and dont give a **** about anyone else) is a barbaric one - and also shows us what kind of thinking occurs in the US.

btw, invention and scientific research has nothing to with if a country is cultivated or barbaric.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:


Oh, and please explain to me why, if the US is a barbaric nation, immigrents from various countries attempt to enter all the time?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because of the money. They don't immigrate because of the culture (you think?).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:

Explain something, please. This actually applies to both sides here, but-what negative aspects are you talking about, and why would you have a better perspective than US citizens? Where are you getting your information? You've already admitted the local news sources are propaganda right along with US news, so it isn't that, is it?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think europeans have way more insight in the US than the other way around (thanks to TV and Hollywood).

Take ricki lake for example - what kind of twisted moral is that?

The negative aspects are mostly:

-the US is too centralized
-People starve
-People get executed
-****ed up morality
-The US citizens are religious fanatics
-The US are a threat to the environment (like when they said no to stop producing mines, or when they said no to kyoto/kioto - or however it's spelled)
-US foreign aid is not enough (compared to swedish foreign law)

I could go on...

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Lucanos

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lucanos:

-The US are a threat to the environment (like when they said no to stop producing mines, or when they said no to kyoto/kioto - or however it's spelled)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of the reasons Bush backed out of the Kyoto treaty is simple...CO2 production. The treaty stipulates that developed nations, such as the US, has to reduce their CO2 production, while third world countries DO NOT.

The US has roughly 7% of the world's population and manages to produce about 25% of the CO2 released into the atmosphere. To the uninformed that sounds incredible. However, that 7% of the world that produces 25% of the CO2, just happens to produce 25% of the world's Gross National Product. Funny how that works out, isn't it? So, if the US reduces CO2, it would, in a sense, be reducing the World's GNP. What effects do you think that would have on the economies of the world? How much are you willing to pay for a computer or a pair of Levi's?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
-US foreign aid is not enough (compared to swedish foreign law)
[/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The US does more than its fair share of helping other countries. I could spend hours ripping apart the above statment. If the US cut off the aid it gives to other countries, the impact would be felt by the entire planet in one way or another.

The more the US tries to help other countries, foreigners accuse us of "sticking our noses into other people business." Based on that alone, why should we help anyone, especially when you say we have our own starving people?

If the US is as unwilling to help as you say, Lescanos, you would be speaking German right now.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Before this arguement gets out of hand, may I ask everyone to back off and calm down some before we continue please? This thread is really getting "hot".

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

No problem.
I don't mind having a heated discussion. If anyone has taken any of my Posts to be personel attacks I apologize, I didn't mean to do it.
I do love my country though so don't expect me not to respond ok. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Sorry, my reply was not as harsh as it sounded. I re-read it, and it does sound heated.

No offense meant, Lescanos, I apologize for the tone of the message.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

I think it very hypocritical of a North American (U.S. in particular) to criticise another country for human rights violations.
Your cities are founded on the sites of villages your “Forefathers” massacred; your soil fertilised with the carcases of millions of Native Americans; your economy was built upon the backs of tens of millions of African slaves.
“The Constitution” which espouses equality among men was constructed by slave owners while they hired immigrants to murder women and children.
The U.S. is the ONLY country in the world EVER to have used a nuclear weapon against another people – its effects still being felt by the civilians they were used on.
The U.S. was one of the first nations of the industrial age (if not the first ever) to use germ warfare against another people (evil Saddam indeed).
The U.S. government has a 225 year history of greed and treachery in regard to foreign policy.
While delaying coming to the aid of a world at war U.S governments and U.S. companies sell weapons to the enemies of their allies.

Your people are so proud of what they have achieved. The reason you are the most hated country in the world is not because of your success, it’s because you are not ashamed of how you achieved that success.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HiveLordJim:
I think it very hypocritical of a North American (U.S. in particular) to criticise another country for human rights violations.
Your cities are founded on the sites of villages your “Forefathers” massacred; your soil fertilised with the carcases of millions of Native Americans; your economy was built upon the backs of tens of millions of African slaves.
“The Constitution” which espouses equality among men was constructed by slave owners while they hired immigrants to murder women and children.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>All true, and all totally irrelevant to the conversation at hand. You are bringing up evils that the united states has committed over 100 years ago. Everybody guilty of these crimes you mention is dead and buried. Tianamin square was TEN years ago. The parties responsible for that are still in power in many cases.

Besides the fact that almost every nation in the world today exsists over the bones of some displaced or massacered indigenous population. "Give Europe back to the Cro-Magnon Man! They were there first!"
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The U.S. is the ONLY country in the world EVER to have used a nuclear weapon against another people – its effects still being felt by the civilians they were used on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Uh, yeah. This is true to, only beacuse we were the first to develop it. You don't think Hitler or Tojo would have loved dropping the nuke on us if they had got it first? And the fact remains that more Japanese lives would have been lost in an invasion than were lost in the two atomic bobms that were dropped.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The U.S. was one of the first nations of the industrial age (if not the first ever) to use germ warfare against another people (evil Saddam indeed).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Uh, when did we do this? I know we developed germ warfare, but they were never used. We used chemical agents in Vietnam, but those weren't designed to kill or maim people. They were designed to clear foilage so enemy positions could be discovered.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The U.S. government has a 225 year history of greed and treachery in regard to foreign policy.
While delaying coming to the aid of a world at war U.S governments and U.S. companies sell weapons to the enemies of their allies.

Your people are so proud of what they have achieved. The reason you are the most hated country in the world is not because of your success, it’s because you are not ashamed of how you achieved that success.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Whatever.

Geo



[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 19 July 2001).]

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

I'm kicking myslf already for getting into this but I had to make this point:


QUOTE:
However, that 7% of the world that produces 25% of the CO2, just happens to produce 25% of the world's Gross National Product ... So, if the US reduces CO2, it would, in a sense, be reducing the World's GNP.
/QUOTE

Sorry but that argument is nonsense. You don't *need* to produce C02 to generate GNP. The two _are_ currently linked, but that link can and must be broken. As one of the world's richer and more technologically advanced nations the US should be helping to set an example by switching that GNP to renewable energy.

QUOTE:
What effects do you think that would have on the economies of the world? How much are you willing to pay for a computer or a pair of Levi's?
/QUOTE

The question is, how much are *you* willing to pay? At the moment it's costing you your environment. (And mine.)



------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so Brain but, if you replace the P with an O, my name would be Oinky, wouldn't it?"

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

True, Dogscoff. I just wanted to make a point. I have rather enjoyed hearing how we, the US, are such horrible people.

Oh, well, at least I can call my president an idiot (for backing out of Kyoto amoung other things) without getting thrown in jail, or just disappearing, like in certain communist countries. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

The Kyoto agreement is pretty much of a joke. Assigning allowable pollution levels, how does that work? When have 55 nations ever agreed on anything for more than 25 years. We will reduce pollution when we develop alternative fuels, it's as simple as that and it won't be developed here or in Europe. The oil companies (Royal Dutch Shell, British Petroleum, Elf, Exxon) are too powerful.

HiveLord,
Should we just stand by and let human rights abuse occur because of our past? Do we need to wait until some non-guilty country points it out and then asks for our help?

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think europeans have way more insight in the US than the other way around (thanks to TV and Hollywood).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If you honestly believe that TV and Hollywood accurately portray life in the US, your naivete' (sp?) frightens me. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The negative aspects are mostly:

-the US is too centralized
-People starve
-People get executed
-****ed up morality
-The US citizens are religious fanatics
-The US are a threat to the environment (like when they said no to stop producing mines, or when they said no to kyoto/kioto - or however it's spelled)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I can't think of a country on Earth that has none of these problems. Many don't execute criminals, and a few don't have strong religious convictions, but every other problem you list is endemic to humanity. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>-US foreign aid is not enough (compared to swedish foreign law)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>A lot of the people who are actually paying the taxes to provide that foreign aid think it's excessive, especially since a lot of it ends up greasing the pockets of corrupt foreign officials rather than actually helping people. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The U.S. was one of the first nations of the industrial age (if not the first ever) to use germ warfare against another people (evil Saddam indeed).

Uh, when did we do this? I know we developed germ warfare, but they were never used. We used chemical agents in Vietnam, but those weren't designed to kill or maim people. They were designed to clear foilage so enemy positions could be discovered.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I suspect he's referring to giving Native Americans blankets that had belonged to smallpox victims. Germ warfare was around long before the Industrial Age, though.


------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Hey Kimball,

In defense of the former communist countries.
when in one of the Baltic countries (Estonia, Lithinua, Lativia) as opposed to balkland - around Former Yugoslovia)
had only one candidate standing in the elections (no surprises there) and the majority of the electrorate crossed out the name or indicated they wanted to vote against him. The candidate was not elected.

In OUR liberal democracies, (I live in the UK) we cannot vote against a candidate and if a candidate stands unopposed, (s)he get automatically elected.

and you are naive if you think people only disappear outside liberal democracies and our governments are there to serve the public interest whilst those over there only serve the ruling party.

Our governments have better spin-doctors, are more subtle at manipulating facts and we are less critical of them, then people in the countries ('where people disapear').

Our education system is based on the system that came into force during WW2, when the pirority was a loyal, obident workforce.

In the words of Pink Floyd, we don't need no mind control, ...hey teacher leave that kid alone.

It's not the people in the US or UK that are horrible, it's the governments. The people are okay, those who see through the lies are simply labled by the state as trouble makers and are linked with trouble makers.

If a capitalist factory owner was to pollute a river with his waste, it would be unreasonable to treat all factory owners as if this was their intention.

Yet when a single protestor goes beyond the limit, of what is acceptable, all the treated by the states as if they intention was the same. This was the message is lost and action can be delayed. The big companies backing BUSH, know they will loss the battle eventually when it becomes blantly obvious to all the damage they are causing, but they want to delay that date as much as possible, so they can make a quick buck, or position themselves better in the market place for the next round

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Parwez,
Sometimes I wish we could vote for none of the above. Glad you can do it.
I see a lot of critisism of the US government, here and elsewhere, by Europeans. I'd like to remind them that our country has been in existence, is basically its current form, longer than Italy, Belguim, Germany, Denmark, Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia and numerous nations. Keep that in mind when you bash the US for being an incompentant/cruel nation. We taught you a lot, if you were observent.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Re china and olympics, death penalty, communism & democracy

China getting the olympics is a double-edged sword.

firstly they won't people to crack down on the protestors as harshley as the world's media spot-light will be on them and belive me the protestors are going to make the most of this fact.
With many chinese protestors comming into the country as spectotors, you think the handling of the recent anti-capitalist riots were bad, when live ammo was used, China is alot of things but they are not **STUPID**.

Remember China lost the 2000 bid, because of bribery and the fact that countries like Britain after voting made it clear, that their criteria for voting for Australia had nothing to do with merit.

Oh yeah and regarding the death penalty, China asked America (sorry) the US, to stop executing criminals with the mental age of children.

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif Shame, how can any country justify that position!


(I am not chinese, and belive communism is flawed, I also reject capitalism)*

*I will relate an incident from my school during history class, when we covered communist as an idelogy the teacher after explaining communism asked, people what was good about it/what would make it a success and the kids rolled off a list of points.

Then she asked what was bad about it & why would prevent it from working.

The whole class went quite.
I though about it for a while and started http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/tongue.gif grinning, she asked me what was so amusing, I replied "INTELIGENCE".

She asked me to explain, I said anybody was was smarter in a communist system would find a way to cheat the system.

All it would take is one person who was both smarter and willing to cheat the system and the ideal of every body contributing according to his ability and receiving according to its need could not be achieved.

If many people did this the system would collapse, great in theory, but unworkable once the numbers get large.

The same hold true for democracy, where the ignorant, masses who are easy to manipulate decide the outcome of an election / decession making process.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Actually Nitram,
we can't vote for none-off the above in the UK. It was something that the former communist countries permited. I don't know if that is still the case. I suspect by now they have learnt the rules of the game and wouldn't make the same mistake again.

Not being able to vote against candidates is the biggest problem with democracy.

I have stood as an independent in both council and national elections in the UK. and came very close once.

We have managed to get 5 independent councillors in Birmingham and it has made a real difference. Before the local labours councillors wouldn't spend the money they were allocated, so that the underspend could be sent back to national government, they would reallocate money ear-market for education in deprived areas across the whole city, which rasied their prospects of promotion within their party.

In kidderminister, a single issue 'keep our hospital' was enough for the independents to take control of the council and get an MP in the house of commons.

In many seats, the numbers of voters who can be bothered is very small.

It reminds me of Michale more in the US, when they tried to get a fern (I think) elected into the senate and the fern got more votes than a senator, that was running unopposed.

Whilst the election commission, accepted the application form, it rejected it after the senator lost.

They make the rules and they will change the rules to keep themselves in power. All we can do is win a skirmish here or there and win a right that was our to begin with.

The act of participating, means they have to become more responsive, take the Green movement, they didn't get many MP's but these issues are not being discussed.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

I read a comment that made sense. It said one of the good things about China getting the Olympics was that relations with Tiawan should remain static until after the games, not much chance of them invading before they get their cash! Guess it's a pretty good benefit.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>With many chinese protestors comming into the country as spectotors, you think the handling of the recent anti-capitalist riots were bad, when live ammo was used, China is alot of things but they are not **STUPID**.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where you getting your information from? The Last I heard, they were using the "semi-lethal" rubber bullets. Still went overkill, and with some weird crap going on apparently, but not with live ammo..and them using/not using live ammunition is probably *not* something the admitadly moronic american press would not mention.

(I say rubber bullets are semi-lethal because at close range they CAN do significant damage)

Phoenix-D

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Ah, well. Draw up a chair & warm yourself by the fire... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HiveLordJim:
I think it very hypocritical of a North American (U.S. in particular) to criticise another country for human rights violations.
Your cities are founded on the sites of villages your “Forefathers” massacred; your soil fertilised with the carcases of millions of Native Americans; your economy was built upon the backs of tens of millions of African slaves.
“The Constitution” which espouses equality among men was constructed by slave owners while they hired immigrants to murder women and children.
The U.S. is the ONLY country in the world EVER to have used a nuclear weapon against another people – its effects still being felt by the civilians they were used on.
The U.S. was one of the first nations of the industrial age (if not the first ever) to use germ warfare against another people (evil Saddam indeed).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While these points are true in a general way, they are a bit over-drawn. Many of the Native Americans died from the diseases brought by Europeans. The "Mound Builder" cultures of the Southeast were apparently quite strong and numerous when De Soto first entered what is now Louisiana/Mississipi in the mid-16th century. But when the English settlers moved inland a century or two later they found only scattered bands of 'hunter gatherer' tribes and mysterious mounds with only a few remnants of structures on them. The best guess is that the diseases wiped out 90 percent or more of the populations and destroyed entire civilizations. Later, of course, the settlers got the idea to deliberately introduce diseases like small pox (the blanket trick). This is not new, though! Americans didn't invent the 'plague ship' trick. It dates back to ancient times. Putting some plague infected people on a ship and sending them into your rival's harbor is a well known strategy throughout the ancient world. So, not that there is any lack of massacres but the majority of the native population died of diseases.

The slaves are second only to the Native Americans in victimization, but they weren't QUITE as numerous as you suggest. The grand total of slaves exported from africa is estimated at 40 million, but 3/4 of them died enroute. This trade was begun by the Spanish and carried on by the English, btw. It's not like slavery was invented by the US. Of the surviving 10 million, most were kept in the Carribean area. Only about 1/2 million Africans were actually brought to the US. But the time of the Civil War there were about 4 million slaves in the Southern US while there were about 7 million 'whites' -- the minute the slaves arrived the races started blurring of course.

That said, it is very odd that we have a Holocaust Memorial in the US capital to commemorate atrocities committed by other nations on other continents and nothing to honor the original inhabitants and the slaves who contributed their land and civilization, and their lives, respectively to building the 'greatness' of this nation that the jingoists constantly flog in our faces in the media. Of course it's more of an ego boost to make a fuss over someone ELSE's misdeeds than 'fess up to your own...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The U.S. government has a 225 year history of greed and treachery in regard to foreign policy.
While delaying coming to the aid of a world at war U.S governments and U.S. companies sell weapons to the enemies of their allies.

Your people are so proud of what they have achieved. The reason you are the most hated country in the world is not because of your success, it’s because you are not ashamed of how you achieved that success.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Our people? Our government, or our "ruling elite" you mean. Industrialists, bankers, etc. Many of our 'people' are just as exploited as the third world. But yes, like any successful empire the US is quite remorseless in exploiting anyone and anything that it can. The US is still the #1 seller of arms in the world more than a decade after the flimsy excuse of the "Cold War" is gone. Anything to make a buck/get ahead. And then stand on the stump and flog your wealth as proof of how 'great' you are. Yech... it's another classic case of 'funny if it weren't tragic' I think.


[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 19 July 2001).]

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lucanos:
&lt;snip&gt;
-The US citizens are religious fanatics
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry that my desire to worship God in my own way offends you, but you will find that there are now many countries with stronger religeous convictions than the U.S.

Actually, many of the early colonists came to the United States to find religeous freedom. Are you trying to call that a bad thing?

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
I'm sorry that my desire to worship God in my own way offends you, but you will find that there are now many countries with stronger religeous convictions than the U.S.

Actually, many of the early colonists came to the United States to find religeous freedom. Are you trying to call that a bad thing?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think he's referring to the fact that many of the descendants of these "refugees from religious persecution" have become intolerant themselves and are just barely restrained from imposing their religious views on others by that inconvenient document called the Constitution.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogscoff:
I'm kicking myslf already for getting into this but I had to make this point:

QUOTE:
However, that 7% of the world that produces 25% of the CO2, just happens to produce 25% of the world's Gross National Product ... So, if the US reduces CO2, it would, in a sense, be reducing the World's GNP.
/QUOTE

Sorry but that argument is nonsense. You don't *need* to produce C02 to generate GNP. The two _are_ currently linked, but that link can and must be broken. As one of the world's richer and more technologically advanced nations the US should be helping to set an example by switching that GNP to renewable energy.

QUOTE:
What effects do you think that would have on the economies of the world? How much are you willing to pay for a computer or a pair of Levi's?
/QUOTE

The question is, how much are *you* willing to pay? At the moment it's costing you your environment. (And mine.)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, I was listening to the 'horribly biased liberal media' the other day when I heard some actual REASONS to reject the Kyoto agreement. It seems that the way it was structured would force the US to pay a much higher price to reduce it's CO2 emissions than the Europeans. For example, the target date for the emissions standard was set at 1990. Well, at that time West Germany had just absorbed East Germany and had hordes of grungy old communist era industries with coal-fired power/machinery to shut down and/or rebuild. Since these had to be replaced anyway, setting the date at 1990 gives Germany a huge head start or 'credit' on meeting their goals. They get to cheat on the way their CO2 is measured, in other words. There's a similar cheat for Britain in that they are switching from coal to gas fired power plants, too. They had to do this anyway but with the date for measuring the emissions set at 1990 they get credit for this in the treaty. The US would be stuck with having to restructure its industries according to the treaty rather than getting to synchronize with a genuine need for industrial renewal of some sort. The person explaining this was none other than Newt Gingrich.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Europeans protesting our use of slaves is a little strange seeing how slavery was used throughout most of Europe at one time or another. The only differance between our slaves and theirs was we only enslaved one race, they wern't as particular who they enslaved. At least we weren't like the Romans, we didn't make our slaves kill each other for our entertainment.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
I think he's referring to the fact that many of the descendants of these "refugees from religious persecution" have become intolerant themselves and are just barely restrained from imposing their religious views on others by that inconvenient document called the Constitution.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, Baron, I find that those who reject religion are at least as intollerant of those who have religious beliefs than the other way around, network television to the contrary. That is not to say that there aren't those who try to force their views on others, only that the majority do not. Conversely, there are those who would eliminate my rights to even say what I believe, when I want to. They also run into that "inconvenient document called the Constitution."

That is part of what makes this country great. Neither extreme is able to muzzle the other, leaving the country in a fairly stable middle ground.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

In regards to the Kyoto treaty:

The biggest problem today in North America is that most people don't care about global warming, or the enviroment. Smog in Canada and the US is getting worse all the time - so what do people do? They buy the latest big *** SUV, punching out 10mpg. Makes sense doesn't it? Why bother to work on reducing costs with alternative fuels? Encouraging mass transit? Unfortunately Mr.Bush is in the Whitehouse, so it'll be some time before anything is seriously done.

In Europe and Japan, they've had to develop sophisticated recyling techniques, pollution controls for a long time now. They are way ahead of us. Just because we still have our natural enviroments, the majority thinks that everything is still alright - when it's not.

I'm sure lots of people have seen it first hand. I live in Toronto and have watched the smog and traffic get worse each year. So what do they do? They start cutting mass transit budgets. The urban sprawl that's happening outside the city is disgusting. These new neighbourhoods with they're big houses that have 3-4 cars in every driveway. They build these huge housing developments and then force people into their cars by not building any neighborhood shopping nearby.

Nobody cares. They just shrug their shoulders and pursue the almighty dollar. Do anything to get ahead.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Spoogy,
You are correct that the Europeans and Japanese have better mass transportation systems, particularly rail. A lot of this has to do with how they developed. In the US and Canada most goods are moved long distances by truck and most people get to work by car. There is not an extensive rail network here. Building a rail transportation would be extremely expensive.
I think our best hope is the development of an alternative fuel or engine type, fuel cells or the hybrid motors could do it.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

It's true that a lot of immigrants want to go to the US. But for what reason? MONEY. It's true, I work with a lot of recent immigrants and while they choose Canada, they tell me how they considered or had been in the US to make MONEY. Not for freedom or rest from persecution, but MONEY.

I work in electronic assembly and they're always talking about how much MONEY they can get working the same job in the US. Blah blah, and SMT operator makes more in San Jose - blah blah.

But, in their final redemption I ask "Why did you come here to Canada then?" and they answer, it's for their families and the cultural mosiac that exists here etc. Shew, I'm glad not everything revolves around MONEY yet.

Interesting Story:

I met my wife on the internet. She lived in the Northwest US and I lived in Toronto, Canada. Long story short, I was going to immigrate to the US. Then I met the INS (Immigration and Naturalization Service) - the worst bureaucracy that ever existed in a democratic nation. I tried for months filling out forms and paying fees - to no avail. The INS works hard to keep people out of the country. Finally after wasting lots of money, we got married and decided to return to Canada. Within two months of filing her immigration papers, she was able to work, get free health care (that was my biggest fear when I was in the US - getting in an accident and owning $25,000 to some hospital!). The moral of the story: Come to Canada and still enjoy US television - but live happier and with less violence.

But for all my European friends and fellow US bashers (I know it's fun and all), while the US has lots of problems, everyday normal life there is not all that bad. The international media kinds of skews things.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Captain Spoogy endorses Hydrogen Fuel Cells.

*** Does anyone know a way to cheaply extract hydrogen from water? ***

Don't let those Gas companies fool you! Although hydrogen gas is dangerous - it's no more explosive then gasoline!

Imagine in 50 years, when every vehicle is equipped with fuel cells. It's the middle of summer, you look into your city and where smog used to blanket the city and distort the view of downtown - it's clear! Like on a crisp winter day.

Recycle! Don't drive! Take the bus! Don't litter! Do what you can to save the enviroment! Don't contribute to urban sprawl! Build UP not OUT!

If you ever get attacked by a bear or cougar in your yard - it's not the animal's fault!!! What the hell are you doing with a backyard in their habitat!!! Is there no where else you can live?

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:
Captain Spoogy endorses Hydrogen Fuel Cells.

*** Does anyone know a way to cheaply extract hydrogen from water? ***

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you do know how I think you will become quite rich http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:
Captain Spoogy endorses Hydrogen Fuel Cells.

*** Does anyone know a way to cheaply extract hydrogen from water? ***
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's quite simple really: buy a gasoline generator and run it to generate electricity. Then use the electricity to seperate water into hydrogen and oxygen. No problem.... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Here's how they work.
http://www.fuelcells.org

They may not be used extensively in my life time but the hold the most promise for curing our petroleum addiction.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
It's quite simple really: buy a gasoline generator and run it to generate electricity. Then use the electricity to seperate water into hydrogen and oxygen. No problem.... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon6.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As opposed to setting up a large, electricty needing oil rig, drilling and pumping oil, then the process that prepares it for use, plus delivery?

Phoenix-D

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Ah, flames are getting higher. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Luc,
You really should learn more about our country before you bash it.

Foriegn aid is free, no strings attached. I've worked on ships that delivered 1000's of tons of free food to many nations.

Immigrents definately come for the money and because we let them in. I don't know Swedens policies but I don't think many people immigrate there. I wouldn't try to guess the reasons.

Most Europeans think they are more cultured than Americans. Must be because they get so much of their views of what America is like from TV. Try visiting first. I've been to a lot of European nations and haven't found one that I would live in instead of America, no I haven't visited Sweden.

Why you would think we are centralized is beyond me. We are about as centralized as Europe. Most European nations are about the size of an average US state, with more people living in them. We have 50 separate State governments that work together to form a nation. That, and the physical size of the country, is something most Europeans hve a hard time grasping. We don't work like European countries.

People do not starve here, unlewss it is voluntary. We have our share of poor. I'm glad your country has eliminated that.

We don't want to be like Sweden any more than Sweden want to be like us. That's the way it should be.

One more thing. If you think Rikki Lake represents America something is wrong with your views, get out more. The only thing she represents if the freedom we allow for any type of comedy show, no matter how bad, to be broadcast.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

I'm starting to enjoy this. I hope Shrapnel don't shut it down=-)

------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so Brain but, if you replace the P with an O, my name would be Oinky, wouldn't it?"

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Capitalism... Communism... Socialism... Aneurism!

Much as I want to resist, I can't help putting in my two cents worth (and putting on my asbestos coveralls in the process):

Smog: George W is an oil man. No way he's gonna support anything that hurts that business. (And no, I did not vote for him.)

Religious fanatics? I haven't heard of any of the hundreds of religious denominations in the US declaring a jihad (a Holy War) on anyone or anybody. With the possible exception of Southern Baptists, who tried to boycott Disney because they offered the same corporate benefits to same-sex couples as to married couples. (These are the same people who, in a Sunday sermon, told the congregation my stepdaughter attended that if they watched the Super Bowl on Sunday, they'd go to Hell.) The rest of us laugh at the Southern Baptists. (If there are any Southern Baptists in the audience, no offense is intended. I calls 'em as I sees 'em, especially in the Belt Buckle of the Bible Belt.) So, yeah, sure, there are SOME religious fanatics, but they hardly make up a majority.

The Death Penalty: oh, this is tricky. For Exhibit A, I present the late (deservedly so, IMHO) Timothy McVeigh, put to death by the Federal Government for blowing up the Alfred Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City and killing 168 people in the process. Personally, I'm glad the US offed him, because (a) I don't think a person so depraved and evil deserves to live, and (b) it's a helluva lot cheaper than the citizens' tax dollars supporting him in prison for fifty or so years. (Call me money-grubbing, I call it practical.) Note well that Mr. McVeigh was the first person put to death by the Federal Government in 30-odd years. Yes, I support the death penalty, but ONLY in these most extreme circumstances for the most heinous of crimes. This is my opinion only: many of the family members of the bombing victims did not want to see Mr. McVeigh put to death, and actually forgave him for his actions. (Does a barbarian have the capacity to forgive?)

Further complicating the matter is that the vast majority of inmates put to death are by individual STATE governments, not the Federal Government. In most states, the maximum possible punishment is life imprisonment without parole. Many states that have the death penalty are considering doing away with it. Also, most death-row inmates wait eight to fifteen years from the time the sentence is handed down to the time they are either put to death, have their sentence commuted to something lesser, or freed as innocent. There is a very long and exhaustive appeals process that automatically kicks in for any inmate sentenced to death. The advent of DNA analysis has brought about the freedom of quite a few wrongfully-sentenced innocent inmates. If it weren't for that lengthy appeals process, who knows how many more innocent people would have been wrongfully put to death?

The "inconvenient document called the Constitution": just a little piece of paper that a large number of fledgling democracies have used as a framework for their own system of laws. Hey, it's only been modified twenty-six times in 212 years; ten times in the first couple of years (an insignificant list dubbed "the Bill of Rights), and one time to annul a previous amendment (the 21st amendment repealed the 18th amendment's Prohibition against alcohol). Besides, I happen to like being able to express my thoughts, practice my choice of religion (even if I don't), and socialize with whomever I please without fear of reprisal or of indiscriminate searches of my property, being tried more than once for a single crime, or having to testify against myself in a court of law.

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it." (I wish I could remember who said this....)

I love the idea of socialism. Unfortunately, it'll never fly in the US. People already think they give too much of their hard-earned wages to a wasteful and inefficient government.

And please, do NOT blame me for the actions of my forefathers. I've only been around for 28 years, and have yet to kill anyone, displace anyone, or desecrate anyone's sacred lands. I can sympathize with the plight of Native Americans, but I cannot and will not feel regret or remorse for actions I did not do. (By the way, Native Americans had no conception of land ownership. To them, the whole land belonged to everybody. The concept of an individual owning a parcel of land was brought to North America by European settlers.)

Finally, money isn't everything. It is a means to an end. "The love of money is the root of all evil." --Lord Acton (I remember that one!)

Now, if y'all will excuse me, I have a bomb shelter to jump into....

Quikngruvn

[This message has been edited by Quikngruvn (edited 20 July 2001).]

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"The love of money is the root of all evil." --Lord Acton (I remember that one!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, it predates Lord Acton by a couple of years. "For the love of money is the root of all evil..."--St. Paul, First Epistle to Timothy

------------------
"The Unpronounceable" Krsqk
Basic Tech Mod
--Current changes list
--Future ideas list

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Quikngruvn:

Now, if y'all will excuse me, I have a bomb shelter to jump into....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, i have two things in response. first, in general: Amen, go tell it on the mountain.

second, regarding the recently Ex-McVeigh, or the former-McVeigh as you may prefer; I heard quoted on NPR his views on religion. went something like this:

NPR news man: While Timmothy McVeigh officialy claims to be an athiest, he was quoted thursday (this being the friday before his execution) responding to a question regarding his belief in the afterlife with these words, "If it turns out that I am wrong and there is an afterlife, I am prepared to improvise, adapt, and overcome."

I thought any leathernecks we have in the crowd would get a kick out of that one. even more so since it came from a (former) army man.

while my random comments might not have much to do with the hot topics at hand, hopefully we can all take a short laugh at.. well.. i guess the people who are bent about all the barbarism in The States would not really get much of a laugh out of that, huh?

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

[This message has been edited by Puke (edited 20 July 2001).]

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Puke:
well, i have two things in response. first, in general: Amen, go tell it on the mountain.

second, regarding the recently Ex-McVeigh, or the former-McVeigh as you may prefer; I heard quoted on NPR his views on religion. went something like this:

NPR news man: While Timmothy McVeigh officialy claims to be an athiest, he was quoted thursday (this being the friday before his execution) responding to a question regarding his belief in the afterlife with these words, "If it turns out that I am wrong and there is an afterlife, I am prepared to improvise, adapt, and overcome."

I thought any leathernecks we have in the crowd would get a kick out of that one. even more so since it came from a (former) army man.

while my random comments might not have much to do with the hot topics at hand, hopefully we can all take a short laugh at.. well.. i guess the people who are bent about all the barbarism in The States would not really get much of a laugh out of that, huh?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it does point out on thing. It doesn't matter if you are religious or not. In the end the way it is is the way it is. No personal belief will change that. One thing is sure, we will all eventually find out who was right, not that it will matter then.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Puke:
"If it turns out that I am wrong and there is an afterlife, I am prepared to improvise, adapt, and overcome."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That reminds me of the old bumper sticker, "Heaven doesn't want me and Hell's afraid I'll take over." Heh. Defiant to the bitter end....

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Krsqk:
Actually, it predates Lord Acton by a couple of years. "For the love of money is the root of all evil..."--St. Paul, First Epistle to Timothy
------------------
"The Unpronounceable" Krsqk
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My mistake. I always heard that quote attributed to Acton. I guess I should have spent more time in Sunday School....

("Unpronounceable"? I've been saying "CURSE-kick". Is that even close? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon6.gif )

Quikngruvn

------------------
"That which does not kill you will make you stronger." -- Nietzsche

[This message has been edited by Quikngruvn (edited 20 July 2001).]

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Quikngruvn:
("Unpronounceable"? I've been saying "CURSE-kick". Is that even close? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon6.gif )
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have been pronouncing it like the Russian sub that sunk while testing those super-cavilating torpedoes, or whatever theory you Subscribe to.

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>("Unpronounceable"? I've been saying "CURSE-kick". Is that even close? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon6.gif )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have been pronouncing it like the Russian sub that sunk while testing those super-cavilating torpedoes, or whatever theory you Subscribe to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The Kursk? Is that it? I guess that gets my vote for the closest. In all honesty, I don't even know how to pronounce it. I think of it in one syllable, I guess. It's from my very first SE3 game, where I got stuck at the Empire Name dialog box. I couldn't come up with anything suitable, so I typed in something without vowels just because. I've always played as the Krsqk Empire since then.

Who knows? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...s/confused.gif

------------------
"The Unpronounceable" Krsqk
Basic Tech Mod
--Current changes list
--Future ideas list

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Another case of "cultural imperialsm" in progress. Take a look at www.boycottadobe.org for information on this bizarre "intellectual property" fiasco. Adobe has got the FBI to arrest a Russian programmer for publicly speaking about the flaws in Adobe's "encryption" in it's secure PDF products. It's not encryption, it's stupid kiddie tricks like rot-13 and XORing. But for pointing this out, and for working for a company in RUSSIA outside US jurisdiction that sells products which can break this encryption, they got him arrested and apparently plan to press charges. This is the infamous DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act) at work. Would be interesting to see the reaction if European nations started arresting Americans who had violated their laws. Let's start with the privacy laws that give Europeans some control of their personal information. Any officer of just about any US corporation could be arrested and jailed for violation of those...

Can't wait to see the US govt. spokesdroids puff up and hiss like a cats if that happens.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

I think it is a good thing that the IOC gave the olympics to china , it gives the people of china exposure to the world - only through exposure to the world will china become a country where ideas and beliefs can ALL be openly practiced.

One thing I find really damn funny about this is the different nationalities hammering the US.. .. When you think about it - this country is made up of Europeans, Africans, Chinese, Hispanic, Arabic, etc.... hmm something to think about - and a funny thing about this - alot of these people are also now US citizens who vote... and who keep their own cultures / religous beliefs when they move to this country and vote for who they believe in. Maybe the problems in the US are a reflection of the problems throughout the world.
Every country has starving people, every country has poor, every country experiences corruption. So why should the situation in this country be any different?
IF the US decided to go back to its isolationist ways of the 30s it wouldnt be long before some nasty country started throwing it weight around and everyone would come screaming for US help.
Most Us citizens will agree that some of our foreign policies are flawed - strange how the mistakes of past cultures repeats ... you only need to look at the Last 300 years of colonial rule...that finally ended with a results like vietnam, Israel and Palistine, India and pakistan, central africa, indonesia, korea etc....



[This message has been edited by AJC (edited 21 July 2001).]

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AJC:
.. When you think about it - this country is made up of Europeans, Africans, Chinese, Hispanic, Arabic, etc.... - alot of these people are also now US citizens who vote... and who keep their own cultures / religous beliefs when they move to this country and vote for who they believe in.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats great and all that there are diverse cultural views. but what really hacks me off - and i will probably get flamed off the board for this - is that people tend to abuse their citizenships. I have generally kept my other Posts lighthearted, but i intend this one to be as serious as some of the other Posts that people have put on this thread.

forign nationals come here (US) from another country, leagly or not, and work hard to become a US citizen. THEN they take all the advantages the have gained from citizenship, (comparatively high income, standard of living, a political voice) and then procede to take whatever actions are in the best interest of their home country or family living abroad.

well, if someone went to all that trouble to become a US citizen, why the frick is some other place coming first in their mind? now, im not an anti-globalist, and i think that only by helping other countries will we live in a productive global economy. when our trade partners benefit, we benefit. its as simple as that. BUT, is it too much to ask for a little patriotism? Could not people put out a little more effort looking for a solution that is beneficial to the US and the world as a whole as well as their home country? do people have to bad-mouth and poo-poo the US while they leverage the advantages of citizenship to aid their families or homeland? if not patriotism, how about gratitude?

Sure, there are lots of people who come here and dont make it. either they fail to prosper, or they are relegated to 3rd class citizens. Last time I checked, we didn't go about ethnically clensing out our immigrants, so even if they end up working in the labor industry, i dont see how they can complain. if its worse than what they had, they can go back. if they cant go back and its not worth giving up, I dont see where they justify complaining about our way of life.

If someone in a forign country wants to say that the US sucks and their country is better, fine. i dont agree, but good for them. If some one goes out of their way to come here, make our system work for them, and then forks over to another country what should be reinvested here, and bad-mouths us at the same time.. ****, how would you like that to be happening in your country? I bet your laws and culture dont even allow for things like that to happen. (this rhetorical question is not directed to the person quoted above, or anyone inperticular)

The reason that the US is so great is that we have the opportunity for screwed up problems like that to occur, and while I hate that it happens, i would never change our government to disallow it.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>people tend to abuse their citizenships. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could you explain this? You see, it makes no sense. Abusing their "citizenships" implies that they had to apply for it in the first place, and that being a citizen is a privilage, and not a birth right.

Just curious, thats all.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Never mind. I see what your saying now. Sorry about missing the point before.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think it is a good thing that the IOC gave the olympics to china , it gives the people of china exposure to the world - only through exposure to the world will china become a country where ideas and beliefs can ALL be openly practiced.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya, lets just hope that the Chines don't drive the tanks into the Olympic park and kill everyone their because they think they are revolting.

Re: OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.
 

Puke:

I agree with you that people abuse their citizenships.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>well, if someone went to all that trouble to become a US citizen, why the frick is some other place coming first in their mind?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is because they simply come to the US to make MONEY as I mentioned earlier. They don't care about patriotism or freedom or voting. They want to make MONEY.

The US is a melting pot. When you immigrate to the US, they expect you to become American in almost every way. They don't really encourage multi-culturalism etc. So many of the foreigners will make lots of MONEY for some time and they move back home or to somewhere else where they can find people of their culture.

Personally, I know lots of people that I work with who spent time in the US making MONEY and after awhile, they moved to Canada to enjoy the cultural mosiac that exists here. In Canada, they're able to find more of their people's infrastructure, while it be temples, support Groups etc, so it's similiar to where they came from, but with all the benefits of a first world country.

People also come to Canada just to make MONEY as well, and when they've done so - they just move back to wherever they're from with all their savings. Taking, but not giving back to the country that gave them all their opportunities.

In happens in both places often (Canada and US), but I think most foreigners see US as the place to make the MOST MONEY - or so they tell me.



[This message has been edited by capt_spoogy (edited 21 July 2001).]