Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

I am so confused as to why you quoted me... o_O?

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

Yes, but at the same time it's foolish to build a strategy based on something which simply does not work for your nation, such as relying on sub-par PD alone to discourage raiding. As you're recent game shows, Bandar can go far simply by stationing a spare mage or similar unit in a province, and enjoy watching them obliterate would be raiders while the raiders themselves waste time and energy trying to deal with a horde of monkeys.

Only a problem if I was hoping said provinces would remain mine for long, or generally wasn't expecting a scout to take them. If I'm following a scorched Earth policy, then any province I don't have an army in is going to have literally been bled dry already, thus losing it is matterless to me and does nothing for you (depending on scales, it could actually be a liability). Like most things in the game, it's a question of which strategy you adopt, sometimes losing a province can be devestating, sometimes you won't notice, and sometimes it can even be intentional.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

It would help if size of the units is taken into conideration when determining auto army routing. Then 2 markatas would count as one regular sized unit routing, and then the rest of the army would be less likely to route when the markatas do. That would make the army routing more logical. Giants woudn't care if all the goblins ran, nearly as much as goblins would care if the Jotuns ran.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

In my ideal world
Units should simply count to routing by size. A size 1 unit contributes one point. A size 6 unit contributes 6 points. Not exact, no, but simple, understandable, and it fixes the largest distortions.

PD should be made stronger, but nations should be limited to buying only 20 points per turn per province. A nation should not be able to drop 1200 gold into a province the turn after they take it in preparation for the counter attack. Does it make any logical sense at all that T'ien Ch'i can boost it's main army by 1300 gold in one turn by spending 450 gold on PD? PD being used for what it is meant to be used for will work just fine at 20 a point limit per turn. If someone wants to play games, they can easily buy 10 in all their provinces and then REALLY boost it in a single turn to 30.

PD should be given the "home province" morale bonus. Obviously, they are in their home province.
OR
*PD can be given a special "milita" morale penalty of -1 and then made stronger to compensate. This represents cheap troops that either win easily, or bolt.*

Since the point of PD is to stop small attacks, not build "uber-armies", then the level 20 troops should be present from level 1 and players should recieve half of them per point. Programatically, set PD 20 to zero, except the commander, and put in half at PD-1.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

Unfortunately I doubt we'll be seeing any changes/updates to PD within DOM_3. The DOM_3 game still has Red Major Bugs which existed at the original base version and the developers haven't been around lately so they're probably working on their next project. If major bugs are not even being fixed which have been around since the games original release I'm not sure if we can even hope for PD balancing.
I'd say your best hope would be if the developers provided new PD options within DOM_4... such as another +/- scale specific for PD or upgrade options for PD. If the developers enjoyed the money profits from DOM_3 then we'll most likely see a DOM_4.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

Which major bugs does Dom3 have?
In earlier versions there has been the game breaking bug with the phantasmal warriors global, but that bug has been fixed.
Apart from that one i can't think of any bug Dom3 3.10 has that i would subscribe as Red Major Bug http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

Limitations for modding, couple of spells are (still?) broken and there are bugs that aren't on the lists, officially. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

"Ideal" Monkey PD:
The Number 1 problem is that the Markata and Atavi archers kill more of their own Melee Markata than enemy troops. This can be fixed easily. Make PD only Melee Markata. Six of them per point. At 20 PD, they an extra 3 Melee Markata and a Naga King to cast Sermon of Courage and various spells.

At that point, without mages to spam damage spells, any mortal troops will fear the wrath of the Markata!

At 20 PD there are 120 Melee Markata swarming the enemy troops in a vast wave of little monkey death!

[The Melee Markata routing causing everyone else to route isn't a problem because there are only Melee Markata. Thus when they route, well, the army has already routed. But this will be harder than most people think, without Markata arrows and Atavi arrows killing them.]

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

FYI, PD at 125 would have:

20(6)+105(9) = 1065 Markatas!

You could put a PD 30 (210 Markatas) province in front of an enemy thug or sc, and then VotD them a few times.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

You better VotD them. All those poor monkeys. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

Check the bug thread... Major Bugs are listed in <font color="red">RED </font> . As mentioned earlier most of these major bugs have existed since the initial game release.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

You want an example of a MAJOR bug that isn't fixed? How about building extras temples not increasing your dom strength for the purposes of spread checks?

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

Well, that's hardly a serious bug, it's just as if the game had an entirely reasonable alternative rule. It's just unfortunate that the manual doesn't match up with the implementation.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

I think in a game called Dominions a major dominion mechanic not working properly is pretty serious. Far more serious than a spell or unit not working. But you're right, you can still play the game. I suppose it doesn't quality as a must fix in that respect.

Another fairly big one, but not major, would be cave provinces not casting darkness.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

Oops http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/yawn.gif. Seems i make a bad propaganda minister http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

I think the solution to the monkey PD problem is to create a mod that gives them a huge killer ape named Kong as the extra 20+ PD leader.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

I vote for a three-headed monkey. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

Monkey pirates!

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

Or maybe I could get something that doesn't rout when four archers attack it. Oh, wait, they also had an idie commander.

Well that explains it.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

I'm having real trouble beating monkey PD. If only someone could tell me what kind of force beats it, over and over again.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

10 Heavy Infrantry+Indie Commander vs 20 PD
6 Heavy Infrantry+8 Archers+Indie Commander vs 20 PD
8 guys with tower shields/decent armour vs 20 PD
12 Castle Archers(10 morale) vs 20 PD

This is without proper battle locations.

But with luck, just about anything can beat monkey PD.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

Look, it's Monkey PD!

http://www.toydirectory.com/monthly/...s/HGG-7584.jpg

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

I'm starting to get the impression that the monkey PD isn't fantastic. While it would be lovely if all the races had the option of employing as broad a range of strategies as possible, unless someone can be bothered to write a mod that makes every nation completely identical, it's not going to happen. For example, I had to stop relying on my flying units when playing as Ulm because I didn't have any.

To be fair, I don't like playing the monkey nations much. I like missile troops, but prefer ones that don't die messily at the first sign of enemy missile fire, direct sunlight or harsh language. Or, apparently, tennis balls (I seem to have missed that particular evocation spell, is it a national one?). I don't play them because they don't suit my style of play (a masterful combination of irrational unit choices, a short attention span and, by necessity, good defense), but I suppose I may be a little biased as well.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

Morkilus wins the thread.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

Look, if Lord_Bob (or anyone else for that matter) wants to make a PD Rebalance mod, and claim that it improves overall game balance, then we'd have something concrete to discuss; and if the player community agreed that more equal PD strengths improved the game overall, it'd stand a decent chance of being incorporated into CB or even a future patch.

But as long as there is nothing but complaint with no attempt to fix the situation (for a moddable problem), there's really not much to discuss.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

Morkilus , I think that your monkey PD is overly powerfull. It looks like it has a high awe ability, and no one will be able to strike it.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

There isn't much point in making a mod, if people won't use it.

Let's see if I can explain this to you, Chris.

A.I find a problem and tell people.
B.They agree it's a problem that needs a solution.
C.I THEN spend the large amount of time to make a mod.
D.Since there is agreement about the problem, people then use the mod I made. So I have not wasted my time.

Following, Chris?

Have you spent large amounts of time on projects that nobody uses, Chris? Judging from your attitude, I have to believe that's the case, Chris.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

I conquered T'ien Ch'i's capital a few turns ago. I'm still scared to send my main army into any of the provinces, because if I guess wrong and he has pumped the PD up, my main army, after the losses taking the capital, can't beat 50-60 T'ien Ch'i PD. In case you're wondering, that's:
50 Footmen
50 Composite Bow Archers
50 Light Horse with Composite Bow and Light Lance
30 Heavy Calvary with Composite Bow and Lance

I finally decided I have to rebuild my army and send mages into battle.... to take every single province. Either that or I risk the loss of my main army for no reason.

Note how I said I have to send my MAIN ARMY into every province.

And I need most of that main army guarding the provinces that he could raid, since my PD can't reliably stop four archers.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

Or you could use a single scout to attack the provinces with orders to retreat and find out which he's put PD in. You don't have to go "Oh a guessing game, I lose by default" - he has to guess where your army is going, so actually he's at a disadvantage in this particular guessing game because PD can't move.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

You can cut the condescending tone right now. Since judging by the tone of the replies I got you apparently cannot understand a clear, plain text warning sent by PM, I will now warn you in public that you will either stop trolling or you will be reap the consequences. That's two warnings now, just so it's clear to everyone.

I've also been given to understand by another mod that you feel like you are being persecuted and that we are out to get you so that you can be "deleted". I was also given to understand that you had indicated a willingness to try to force things to that point. If that's indeed your tack here, it is going to become a self-fulfilling prophecy, since this community has absolutely no use at all for people who troll and disrupt the forums on purpose. We do NOT want to ban people, but we will if we have to, though that is always an administrative decision, not one made by mere moderators.

This topic is looking more and more like it's going to be just people beating on a dead horse, and if it does come to that, it's going to be locked. I'm not going to shut this thread down yet, though. I hope the discussion will go forward in a more productive vein.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

Since you have access to what I wrote, why don't you quote it? I give you full permission. I think that would make my "persecution complex" quite clear to everyone. So go ahead.

Specifically, the fact that Jazzepi thought it was okay to tell me to "Die in a river" for no reason at all. He knew you would be okay with this, because, you are, aren't you?

Oh, and Chris_Byler was being deliberately rude to. You just have 100% tolerance for certain people who get to run around and get in everyone elses face. That's the way most message boards are run, so I don't expect any better from you.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

Chris_Byler wasn't being deliberately rude. It's just that we've all heard what you think many times, and think that there are two options from there:

1) Do nothing, since only a small fraction of the community agrees with you.
2) Make a mod that you, and those that agree with you, can use. It actually would not take very long - maybe half an hour. Certainly less time than all this posting has taken.

Further posting on the subject will not change anyone's opinions. We have all read your opinions, initially with interest, and then later with growing frustration as it became apparent that you were not taking other people's opinions on board or reading their posts properly. It also goes against forum etiquette to make so very many posts on the same issue. There is a good reason for this - if everyone (or even two or three more people) did it then the whole board would break down in a mire of pointless discussions.

I have to say I find your posts on other topics to be quite good. You just seem to have gone a bit wild on this one.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

Step B here clearly has not happened.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

I think that was his point. That's why he has to keep on telling us until we agree.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

I do not actually have access to direct quotes, I only have access to the impression another moderator expressed without directly quoting you. I thought that was obvious from my phrasing.

I actually managed to miss that one, since both this thread and the other multipage one are as big as they are. No, I'm not okay with what he said and he should not have done that. Frustrated as he might be with you, there was no call for him to say such a thing.

I'd really like to know how Chris was being rude to you. He, like many others, are frustrated with how you have acted with regard to the PD issue, so he did not perhaps bother to coach his post in the most flowery language, but his core message is NOT rude.

It is a suggestion to make a PD mod to test out what would be useful, if you can improve things and see where it goes. Demand for such things is not guaranteed, but without trying, such things don't get made. Often when people have an issue with some aspect of the game, they see if they can mod it more to their liking. The CBM (Complete Balance Mod) is one example that adjusts nearly everything in the game.

The Better Independents mod is another one, I got tired and frustrated with always fighting the same nameless, faceless AI hordes composed of indie archers, militia, light infantry and barbarians with maybe 1% national troops mixed in and rarely any of the good quality independents. Sombre came up with the concept of No Independents (NI) maps due to a modding fluke, but I wanted a somewhat different solution, so I tried my hand at it and posted it here in case somebody else was also interested. I do not know just how popular it is, but I made it anyway without having any guarantees.

Chris's suggestion is very much along the same lines, but obviously laced with his frustration, which is fairly understandable.

I'd really like to see the evidence for the claim that I play favorites and abuse my power as a moderator. There are few things I like less than being baselessly accused of abuse of power. I can also assure you that any moderator here who does take it to his head to abuse users and his position as a moderator is not going to remain a moderator for very long. The administrators of the forum have absolutely no tolerance whatsoever for that sort of behavior and will throw such miscreants unceremoniously out on their arse. If you have any such evidence of wrongdoing on my part, please present it to Mindi and Annette so they can resolve the issue. If you're correct, they'll present you with my hide in a suitably singed condition.

My main function here is maintaining the bug shortlist stickied to the top of the forum and the other moderation duties are incidental. It may look like I jump in every thread since I generally have something to say about how the mechanics of Dominions 3 work because I know them pretty well, but actual moderating of user actions, that's rare. I do not particularly like doing it, but I will if the situation calls for it. These PD threads have caused a situation that calls for it. It should say something that Ich and Sombre, who are generally the models of patience with new people, have seriously considered putting you on an ignore list or already done so. They're some of the last people I'd have expected to do that.

In any case, I hope that this response can help you see just how this whole issue has developed and where it stands right now. As llamabeast said, you have fine posts on other topics but this PD issue sends you into a frenzy for some reason.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

Ich, please do not fan the flames any further. If you do not have anything to add but more gasoline to an already burning blaze, stay silent. This whole issue is already enough of a cluster**** that it doesn't need more crap.

Vendettas in general are bad for the forum, so kindly do not pursue them. That goes for everyone else as well.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

I'm not being paid to post here.

If others want to tell me to "Die in a river" or talk to me in an extremely condescending manner, like Chris_Byler, then that's fine. I can generally get them to leave me alone after a few responses. However, I have no reason to sit down and allow people to verbally attack me because "Edi won't let you respond".

Of course, you could say "Chris_Bylers message made sense", but then we would be left with the puzzling lack of a response to my reply to his "message". The "message" was nothing more than the tone a boss uses to humilate an employee that he can fire. I am not Chris_Byler's employee, therefore I don't have to act like one.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

Neither am I. I did not actually even ask for a mod position, but I could not in good conscience refuse after the stink I'd made about the state of the bug reporting management when that came about. I do this all in my free time, which I could just as well use on otehr staff. Same goes for all of the other mods. The only people who do get oaid are the ones whose name appears in white.

If you intend to start a flamewar here, I'm going to shut this thread down very shortly. As you may or may not have noticed, I just shut down a post of Ich's precisely because of that. As I said, I did not see Jazzepi's comment and therefore took no action on it at the time. I have yet to see how Chris Byler was being "extremely condescending" as per your words. You have the right to respond, but not to start flaming and trolling.

You're reading more into his post than was there. See my above post for the reasons.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

Your friend can't give them to you? That's very, very strange. I guess we're just stuck with your interpretation of your friends interpretation of my written and saved words. Normally, this would work better if I had said something, unless I had a taperecorder.

It wasn't on these two/three threads. It was, however, in my letter to your friend. So apparently your hearsay is about the quality one would expect. Is spreading rumours about people rude? Probably not.

The most impossible thing in the world is explaining something to someone who doesn't want to understand. But I'm quite certain that if someone talked to you in that way, you would understand immediately.

People like Jazzepi just don't wake up one day and say "I'll go tell some random newbie, who wasn't even really talking to me, to Die In A River". People like Dedas don't immediately go running to the moderators every time someone says something "mean to Jazzepi". They start out being a little rude, and it's tolerated. Then they get worse, and worse. From the level of nastiness Jazzepi has managed to reach, well, ok, it's not that surprising. I'm talking things up. Pretty standard for a message board. Still, yeah, that kind of behaviour is a pretty dead giveaway. Dedas was totally confident that I'd be put in my place and Jazzepi would be just fine.

Dedas's confidence is my confidence that things are exactly the way I thought. He took off straight for Teacher. Wonderful product of Public Education.

Re: Grossly, insanely different PD strengths
 

Very well. Since you actually refuse to listen to anything I say in its entirety and insist on twisting things out of context to try to make them look better for yourself when the whole goddamn exchange is public for everyone to see, there is no point in discussing this issue any further.

I will make a public statement here that I feel I have done my best to try and resolve the issues at hand, but since it seems to be only going downhill, I will stop wasting my efforts. Thread locked.