Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

They're much tougher in Werewolf form. Won't rack up as many afflictions.
I'm not quite sure how their shape changing works. I've seen caster Skratti get killed in giant form, change to werewolf then die immediately after, which doesn't seem right if they got full hp when they changed. I've never seen a werewolf get killed and switch to wolf.

Nor am I sure what happens if they survive the fight after switching to werewolf due to being "killed". They may wind up in wolf form, losing all but misc items. That is what happens if you order them to change shape.

Edit: Ah well, that explains that. Though I swear I've seen the Werewolf form appear.

They'd benefit from W9, but not enough to justify the cost IMO.
With E9, Shroud, Frost Brand, luck & a shield they can take essentially any AI hordes.
In MP, they need to boost MR & resistances. More quickness won't help as much.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Hi, WraithLord. Unfortunately the W9 50% quickness from the shroud does not stack with the 100% quickness from the spell (though you will still get the +4 to defense).

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Following up on thejeff's point, I think the main weakness of skratti's in werewolf form (the most useful for combat) is their MR of 14. Even with an AoMR it is only 18 which makes me think you might be better off with Armor of Souls (not cheap at 40 blood slaves) or rainbow armor if you've got indy mages with the right paths.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Or not rely on the same early game trick to carry you through end game as well. I mean, I for one consider a strong bless to be an early (to mid) game advantage (much like an awake SC). You need to constantly plan the transit to end game.

I am running three experiments now:
1. Imprisoned Son of Fenerer, N9W9, solid scales (O3,T3,C3,G1,M0 IIRC), dom-6
Wow, this bless on Jarls and woodsman is awesome. They cleave through indeps. Plus they never route (which is usually an Achilles hill for giants). When the wolf pretender get free he can be used as an artillery machine and for W/N globals.

2. Imprisoned Monolith. E9S4N4, excellent scales dom-8.
Solid bless. Good enough to carry through early expansion. Synergizes well with shrouded Skratti werewolfs.

3. Earth Mother. E9N9 solid scales.
Advantage over 2nd setup - First no routing for sacreds and Second pretender is mobile and has all slots.

I was considering experimenting with E9 dom-10 Cyclopes.

Which setup you think is optimal?

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

E9 dom9or10 AWAKE cyclops is a lot of fun, since you can really kick off your early expansion with another province taker right off the bat.

Optimal is harder to get at though, as alot depends on individual play styles, as well as luck of the draw on a map.

For a smaller tighter map awake SC will allow you to more easilly rush someone. On a larger/looser map you may be happier with better scales and some extra paths from your pretender.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Unless it's a fast blitz game, I'd never spend the points on an Awake pretender for a giant nation, it's really just overkill and the expense of points will only leave you over-extended and vulnerable in the mid game.

Now with just a single E9-E10 bless on the Cyclops, you could just Dormant rather than Imprisoned, though. Having him out just at the end of the first year, means he can help get an Earth economy going for later, and can really add a lot of value to your nation. Enough value? That is hard to say. Seems to me that taking giants without at least 5% regen, is like taking a car with 3 wheels.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Even after the 100th game?

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Why not?

It still serves the purpose you created it for exceptionally well does it not?

If that is your play style then why handicap yourself (and this is important) in a competative environment.

If you are just screwing around then sure, do whatever the hell you want, but the question posed was what is 'optimal', and an awake E9 dom9 cyclops is optimal for a certain map type and play style.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

All right, any jotun player has good counter to soul slay/paralyze spam of enemy astral mages?

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Not really. Astral bless can help. You can forge MR Amulets and Skullcaps for the thugs. Armor of Souls?

Communion up to Antimagic?

Or just make him pay with Magic Duel spamming Vaetti Hags.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Or you could do a reverse communion. For example, take 4 Skratti's and one S vaetti. Script Skrattis to sabbath slave, quicken self, BoW, change shape, attack. Script vaetti to CM, BE, Personal Luck, Resist Magic, Astral Shield (or whatever S buffs fit your needs), Make sure to give 1 blood slave to each Skratti and to choose a Vaeti with high unit ID (appears below Skrattis in army setup screen).

I have seen strange behavior of Skratti shape shifting in my tests. If I take him to battle in Skratti form, then cast Divine blessing, holy avenger (was prophetized), attack, then I see him following orders well in battle but after battle is over he ends up in his wolf form. Now this may cause serious issues on equipped Skrattis.

To another issue. I've been trying to make up my mind which move is better. To prophetize my starting herse, or wait an additional turn and prophetize a skratti. Given that I'm taking an E+N bless that is. They both perform exceedingly well vs. indies, but I have a feeling that for the long run the Skratti would be a better choice. Any opinions?

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

I haven't tried the reverse communion with Skratti. Seems to me the fatigue would be too high. Mostly from the Sabbath Slave. I'm not sure it gives enough advantage over even minimal gear, though it'd be faster to set up in a pinch.

As for shape-shifting, the script you describe should leave him in Skratti form. If you left out "change shape", then he will change again, to wolf form, after the battle. This is why I usually change to werewolf form outside of battle and take the extra fatigue casting buffs.

I'd stick with prophetizing the herse. With that bless, Woodsmen should do well for initial expansion. Then maybe Jarls once I've got another fort up. Skratti thugs usually wait until I can get some gear. Shrouds, Frostbrand & a shield, at least.
Prophet thugs take penalties outside your dominion which can be crippling, so I hate to rely on them. In the long run, I don't see a great advantage to a Skratti prophet thug over one with a Shroud. I guess you could put better armor on the prophet.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Minor point, but you'll have to cast BE outside of the communion since the area of effect is not caster.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

I'm talking E9 bless and four slaves so fatigue should be minimal. Advantage it that no gear is required for getting basic thug with luck, additional MR and astral shield.

I'm not sure I understand the part about leaving out the "change shape". What I did is enter combat as Skratti and scripted to four rounds of bufs and then change shape and then attack. When I look at the next turn the Skratti is in wolf form.


It has more HP and better defense and more regen so more survivable. You have a point about out of dominions penalties - just lost the said Skratti in one of my SP tests due to those :)
Buttom line I agree Herse is better choice.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

If you issue the change shape command, after the battle the game will issue another change shape command. It would seem this is intended to return the unit to its original form, in the case of a unit with two shapes. Since skrattis have three forms it's a problem for them. With your build you won't be risking losing equipment due to the second shape change but I'm guessing if you had to fight two battles in one turn it would be an issue since you will not be in the correct shape for the second battle.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

If you order any shape changer to change shape in battle, they'll change shape again at the end. For those with 2 forms, this gets them back to the original. Skratti have 3, so they wind up in wolf form. Very annoying.
It's easiest to just send them in werewolf form, despite the lower paths and thus higher fatigue from buffs.
I said "leaving out the change shape" since you didn't actually list it in your initial description.

In the reverse communion, without Shrouds they won't have E9, so no reinvig. With 2 slaves most Skratti will get 25+ fatigue from Sabbath Slave, then add their buffs & fatigue from the Hag's casting. High, but probably survivable. No decent weapons or shield still leaves them vulnerable. If you want to give them Shrouds or weapons, you have to start them as Werewolves or lose the gear which puts them at 1B and 100 fatigue from Sabbath Slave.
An interesting surprise in a pinch, especially if you're defending a province with a lab and can give them some gear. Not something I'd want to use heavily.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

So with shrouds they'll enjoy the E9 bless. If they enter communion in Skratti form they'll receive 50 fatigue. With 2 slaves as you said - 25.

Only annoyance is wolf form after battle.

I said nothing about equipment b/c its orthogonal to the communion, just equip them however best fits the circumstance or don't equip them at all if that's not required. I'm a minimalist when it comes to managing armies and SCs :)

The above said I must admit that this is indeed a corner case that may possibly come useful under relief+E9 bless as a last ditch nasty surprise.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Jot PD...

Does Jot get woodsmen at all in pd 20+ for example?
do they get a priest?
If so, a nature bless and berserk woodsmen might make the pd tenable.

Anyone know?

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

They do not get woodsmen.

They get Javelineers and one of the tougher troops, I think.

They do get a Jarl. Which is incredibly frustrating beacause, with a good bless, he and the Herse could beat off weak attackers by themselves, but they just sit in the back and wait for the militia to run away.

The PD isn't tenable. Certainly not worth buying up to 20. Except maybe in SP to discourage the AI from declaring war in the first place.


Just put thugs where you expect to be attacked, raid back, and/or use your thugs to retake the provinces.

Re: Jotunheim MA Guide
 

Manual says no to woodsmen, yes to priest, at 20+ pd