Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Now some organizational question. I see that rifle companies (formation n 627 and so on) in your OOB have an heavy machine gun platoon attached to them. Was it actually done?
And in general what kind of support was available? From what I read from the tables six 82/120mm mortars were available at the battalion support company but what others weapons were there? How many recoiless? AAMgs? Were 60mm mortars used?
I am asking this because I am reworking the afghan OOB and from what I have read so far it followed soviet patterns.
Yet they require several changes, as I imagine the DRA troops were not usually carrying around SA-7s and such, for obvious reasons.
Thanks in advance for any info.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Hello Marcello.

In the Russian or Soviet army in general there are no such divisions (Rifle Inf). We do not have the pedestrian infantry. We have mech rifle inf. But in game should be provided - also infantry without armour APC. At us this infantry - the usual mechanised infantry, without APC. As it is supposed that in such structure the infantry usually defends - that we have for a change put them 12.7mm machine guns. In the present states of the mechanised infantry - at all of us it is precisely specified in ours OOB.
In Afghanistan at us usually were at war Air Assault, Mech Inf, it is less Naval Inf.
At all of us armies are made very precisely (including support platoons - 82\120mm mortars, MG, AGS etc.) - except Rifle Inf - these armies at us are made on a basis Mech Inf.
Also it is exact at us years of change of organizational regular structure of armies are made.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

So basically if I understand correctly that heavy MG platoon is a sort of compensation for the absence of the BTR/BMP, rather than a standard formation.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Hello Marcello.

No. You have misunderstood me. I spoke about that that - Rifle Inf = Mech Inf winthout BTR/BMP. As such variant of structure of divisions is possible only in defend basically in support to these divisions gave heavy mg.
Mech Inf with BTR/BMP - we have completely made a standard platoon of support in our OOB.

Best regards

sorry for my bad English

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

We have found one more error.

change units:
unit 099 - IS-2M - weapon 4 - remove.
unit 518 - ASU-85 - weapon 3 - add 12.7mm DShK AAMG, change Radio=91.

change formantion:
formation 009 - Haavy tank Pl - unit 3 - remove.

To download it it is possible from the first page of this theme or from here: www.pecypc.kz/kramax/obat011.obf

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

If a Heavy tank platoon is only two tanks that makes your heavy tank company only 5 tanks.

Only five tanks in a Heavy Tank company ? Not much of a company----- more like a platoon.

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

I remember using 5 tank Heavy Tank Co. in my SPWAW soviet 1941 campaign...

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Let me know if you find a better source....OK ?

I'm interested in any actual proof there were five tanks in a Heavy tank company before or after WW2. The info I have says 7 and 10.

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Hello Don.

I have found it in descriptions fighting application of tanks IS's.

"In February, 1944 regiments of the break completed with tanks KV's available as a part of Red Army, have been translated on new states. Has simultaneously begun formation of the new parts equipped with cars IS, which steels to be called as heavy tank regiments. Thus it even at formation appropriated the name" Guards ". On staff in new regiments 375 persons of the staff, four tank company IS's (21 tank), company submachine gunners, company technical maintenance, the antiaircraft battery, sappers, economic platoons and a regimental medical aid station were."

http://www.armour.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/IS2/is2_3.html

and wiki:
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki / % D0%98%D0%A1-2

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Well, I can tell you one thing for certain....that automated translator makes a real mess of things. The best I can come up with from that is in 1944 a regiment of IS tanks was four companies totalling 21 tanks. Which, if this is true, would be five per company with one tank reserved for the regimental commander. Under wartime conditions I can see the need for company formations that could be expanded but it is difficult to believe than anyone would seriously call five tanks a "company" when it's a platoon everywhere else !

Maybe that's what is said.....and maybe that's for 1944, not post war and not applicable before 1944 IF that is truly the case.

As well, that first link doesn't work and the second doesn't go anywhere useful to the discussion.

What else do you have ?

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

In all these sources it is spoken about that that in tank to a regiment was 21 tank - 1 tank for the commander of a regiment.

Guards heavy tank regiment of break.

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki / % D0%9E%D1%82%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0 %B9 _ % D0%B3%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D0 %BA%D0%B8%D0%B9 _ % D1%82%D1%8F%D0%B6%D1%91%D0%BB%D1%8B%D0%B9 _ % D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%B9 _ % D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BA
http://mk-armour.narod.ru/1998/01/04.htm
http://mk-armour.narod.ru/1998/No3.htm
http://mk-armour.narod.ru/1998/03/03.htm

Here the small transfer describing structure and a principle of creation of such divisions:

Trial variant of creation of such divisions
"To the operation beginning« Uranium »it has been generated a little OGvTTP, armed with heavy tanks KV-1s. On staff of the end of 1942 the regiment had 4 company on 5 linear tanks and 1 car of the commander of the regiment, all tanks of a regiment were equipped with radio stations. Number of a regiment made 214 persons, from them 105 it was necessary on crews of heavy tanks. The others were in structure of a staff of a regiment, repair company, administrative, supplying and medical services. For supply, and communications the regiment could have investigations some not armour vehicles - lorries, jeeps and motorcycles. Fighting application has shown sharply increased abilities OGvTTP in comparison with tank cases of the beginning of 1942 on break of defence of the opponent."

And still:

"Besides, perfection of German anti-tank artillery has led to that the reservation of the Soviet tanks has already ceased to be sufficient. Arriving in 1942 in the increasing quantities regarding Wermakht 75-mm anti-tank gun Pak 40 had no problems in defeat T-60 and T-34 from any distance and represented more than essential threat for KV-1, whose booking could protect the car only on certain distances and course corners. Therefore the management of Red Army had been made very important two conclusions - for break well and beforehand become stronger opponent it is necessary to apply the divisions equipped same (in order to avoid problems with supply) and well armour heavy tanks. For successful overcoming of defence of the enemy the massed application of tanks, but with their as much as possible flexible management and their close interaction with infantry and artillery is necessary. The decision was accepted, that to most full answering these conditions base unit is the heavy tank regiment number in 21 car. As these divisions should crack originally defence of the enemy with all following consequences in the form of losses, etc. For increase of fighting spirit of staff have decided to appropriate at once to separate tank regiments at formation an honorary title Guards with all following from it privileges. "

Here it is not clear in what precisely to year these states in 1942 or 1944 have been created. Probably about 1944 it is spoken as about a year of creation of "Guards" tank regiments with tanks IS...

p.s. sorry for my Bad English and my bad machine translator.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

OK. Please tell me what does this prove about post war formations ? I can see in 1944 this formation was created to utilize the new IS tanks better----- so granted----- There does appear to be a case for 5 tank companies but only in early 1944 and so far, only during the war.

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

The matter is that during war and after war there were regiments of heavy tanks and a brigade of heavy tanks. All of them Guards. Probably in brigades of heavy tanks there was other organizational-regular structure. I yet have not found these data. I will search further http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

It is possible to make as follows: to leave an old variant of 7 tanks in company and new 5 tanks in company... I Think that both these have the right of a variant to existence.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

OK but that does sound like a guess for those formations but I understand, sometimes we have to guess too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

On an unrelated matter can you site the source you used to give the 107mm B-11 RCL in your OOB a range of 30 ? We don't use maximum ranges for those weapons. If we did the US M40 would get considerably more than it has now. I know that sometimes finding info on weapons is difficult because not every source uses the same terminology ( or the standard they use varies from source to source ) but we aim to use "Practical" or "effective" range for things like the B-11 and I haven't found anything that indicates the B-11 had a 1500m "Practical" or "effective" range but if you do I'm interested in reading about it.

The info I have on the B-11 is..

Range (m):
Max Effective: 450
Max Aimed Range: 1,400 (est)

a second source gives this information

BK-883 - HEAT. Projectile 7.51 kg. Complete round 12.5 kg. Warhead 1.06 kg
of RDX/Aluminium. GK-2 PIBD fuze. Range: 450 m (effective) 1,400 m (max).
Penetration 381 mm. Muzzle velocity


or 9 for max effective and 28 for max aimed range and a penetration of 38 when translated to game terms

in contrast the US M40 shows

Range (m):
Maximum Effective: 1,350
Maximum Range: 2,745


or 27 and 55 hex range.

This explains the 27 range in the game for the US M40 though I have seen other figures that give it "around 1100m m using HEAT and HEP-T" so that would be 22 but 22 and 27 are at least close. The difference between the 9 range we give the B-11 ( 450m ) and the 30 you give ( 1500 m ) isn't so close so I'm curious where that came from ? Perhaps someone used the Max range in error?

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Hello Don.

I have found here this source:

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/crewwpns.htm

And with surprise has found out that data published here - erroneous or inexact.

The explanation idle time - at me is the passport (or the instruction) to gun RCL B-10 and to gun RCL B-11. In them I subtracted that the shell flies with speed of 400 metres per second / and as all of us know at HEAT shells penetration does not change with distance increase. Then it turns out that on the source of the information specified by me - a shell let out of gun B-10 or B-11 - will fall to the earth in 1 second? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Here the links to the table of shooting for gun B-10:

www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212324.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212326.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212327.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212328.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212329.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212330.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212331.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212332.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212333.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212334.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212335.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212336.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212337.jpg

As we see aim range of shooting of 1430 metres. This distance a shell flies by for 5.3 seconds. Range of a direct shot - 390 metres. What is the direct shot is when the cross in a gun sight should be induced precisely at the tank (or the car) and for this purpose it is not necessary to enter amendments into a sight. But then it turns out if we take range of a direct shot then in game it is necessary to reduce this range at all tanks for a basis.

Aim range of shooting HEAT a shell - is specified in the table in a file 212333.jpg
Aim range of shooting HE a shell - is specified in the table in a file 212335.jpg

The item with. If I am interesting I can translate into English names of columns of tables.

Sorry for my bad English.

Best regards

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Let's keep it short and simple. It makes it easier to translate

Ths source you quoted at the start agrees with all other data I have for that weapon. The effective range for the B-11 is 450 metres and the penetration is 380mm and effective range is the range we've used, or tried to use whenever possible, for all RCL's in the game.

Are you saying all the info on the B-11 available in English is wrong ?

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

I have shown you the table of shooting for a gun which stood out in army in hands crew this gun. What can be even more demonstrative than the instruction?
I speak about that that as you have told earlier, that probably there is some misunderstanding of the given information or difficulty of translate. I speak that it is impossible for instructions of range of shooting of guns B-10, B-11 and SPG-9 to use - data of range of a direct shot. These guns have a sight - with which help they can shoot on the distances specified by me.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

There was time when all English-speaking editions a rocket 9A4172 Vikhr - named a rocket 9M120. It was an error. And now many editions about it have written. But this modern weapon and it is interesting to people. And here RCL guns of manufacture of the USSR of 1954 - very few people now interest. I have only resulted the real table of shooting on which tipper-of of a gun could destroy the tank.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Showing me scans of a manual I can just barely read isn't very helpful, is it ?

The wrong name of ATGM and the range and penetration of a recoilless rifle have little in common. As you noted, the RCL has been around for years. It's difficult to believe that the known effective range for that weapon could be that far out given that to GET an " effective range " would require field testing and since the B11 has been around for 50+ years some testing must have been done to get that "effective " range

Yes?

Now, Andy and I have discussed this weapon in the past and questioned it's low range but every piece of info we can dig up ( and read ! ) gives the same results. The maximum AIMED range we have matches your info almost exactly. Where we diverge is in the effective range and as I said, that's the range we have been using for those weapons not the maximum range you can actually point and fire it.

Those scans, if I understood correctly what I could read, shows that weapon had a max range or 1430 m for the HEAT round. "which tipper-of a gun ( gun aimer ) could destroy the tank."

OK, lets assume for a minute that 1430m is correct and all the other info about "effective" range of 450m is wrong... even if we do accept that is the maximum range for that weapon that number translates to 28 hexes in game terms not 30.

Consider also..... maybe nobody could actually hit anything with it reliably beyond 450 metres despite what the manual says you should be able to do. EVERY army is guilty of that .

Also, you have 30 for a penetration for HEAT.... all the numbers we have shows 38. Where did 30 penetration come from ?

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Unfortunately in technical characteristics in the instruction to B-11 there is no information about penetration.

Here link on technical characteristics B-11:
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b10b11/804957.jpg

Here:
The second line - 450 metres - range of a direct shot
The fourth line - initial speed of flight HEAT of a shell - 400 metres per second

Kind of sight B-11:
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b10b11/889919.jpg

HEAT a shot to gun B-11:
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b10b11/899538.jpg

PHOTOS (pictures) B-10 and B-11

B-10;
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b10b11/270.jpg

B-11:
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b10b11/271.jpg

========================================

Even our data here have an error - HEAT penetration shell B-11 should be even less 290mm:

http://www.militaryparitet.com/nomen...protivotank/3/

The third line of the table.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

And there's that 450m number again. It does keep popping up over and over. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



There will always be conflicting information even from the best source. Why assume that since this website gives a 29cm penetration for that weapon that it's correct and the previous info you had was wrong ? As I have said, western sources give that weapon a much higher penetration. Why ? I really don't know. I can only use the info I have and when there is conflict go with whatever I feel is more likely. To do the type of research to make ( almost ) everyone happy with these OOB's would require a staff the size of Janes !

This is why OOB work , no matter how well researched, will never be completely free of "controversy" even with 50 year old weapons systems. It's why any of us can only guess at the numbers we use in the OOB's for modern weapons and who knows, maybe 50 years from now someone might actually figure out what the correct numbers should be. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Don
-------------
One question:
I have convinced you on range of aim shooting?

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

We have found more error.

change units:
units 129,130,131,132,133,219,748, - Armour Steel: HF=4, HS=3, HR=2, TF=4, TS=3, TR=2, Top=1; Armour HEAT: All=0.
unit 134,749 - Armour Steel: HF=4, HS=3, HR=2, TF=9, TS=7, TR=5, Top=2; Armour HEAT: TF=12, TS=10, TR=8, Top=2.

new formantion:
formation 067,066 - Haavy tank Pl3/Co7.

To download it it is possible from the first page of this theme or from here: www.pecypc.kz/kramax/obat011.obf

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

No. Not really. Your last post really proved my point.

There is a difference between the range a weapon can be used and it's effective range. Everything points to an effective range of 450 metres for that RCL. Even your last source gave 450 metres. I told you at the start if we used the max aimed range then all RCL's would take a huge leap in range but that ignores the numbers we have on "effective" range and that 450m number you quoted from the manual in the last post matches almost exactly the numbers I gave at the start

Range (m):
Max Effective: 450
Max Aimed Range: 1,400 (est)


and yours..

"Here:
The second line - 450 metres - range of a direct shot "

Now.... MAYBE that means it's effective range over open sights is 450 m and MAYBE the 1400m number is the maximum range it can be fired when a sighting device is used but that's a lot of "maybe's" isn't it ?

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

I consider that you are wrong.
I have given you the table of shooting for the given guns, I have given you even appearance of this sight in which for B-11 it is possible to see a scale of adjustment of range for shooting on these distances: www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b10b11/899538.jpg
What for then these tables in general were necessary - there is this gun shoots only on 450 metres? For appearance? 450 metres are a range of a direct shot and it in any way an effective shot are different concepts. At HEAT shells does not decrease penetration with increase in range of shooting. Tanks of those years shoot approximately also the-tipper-of corrects range in a sight.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Go right ahead and consider that I am wrong. You won't be the first. It doesn't make you correct though anymore than it makes me wrong.

I'm tempted to continue this discussion until you understand my position on this but I suspect it's futile so I'm done with this for now. I have repeatedly told you that the maximum shooting range is NOT the same as the effective range which is what we use in the game and my sources and your source BOTH come back with the same 450m number. It matters NOT in the least what the sights are set for. There are military rifles from the early part of the 20th century with rear sights calibrated up to 2000 metres and beyond. The French Lebel M.1886/93 had sights calibrated to 2400m ! Does that make it the EFFECTIVE range for that rifle using iron sights? I don't think so.

I admit the 450m range seems short but so what ? We set out to use the reported effective range for recoilless rifles whenever we could and 450m was the range that came up over and over and over for the B-11 as it's effective AT range. Find me something better than the range printed on the sight for that and I will admit you made your point but so far you have not done that. I've said this already, just because the thing can shoot that far or has sights set up for that distance doesn't mean anybody could hit anything at that range and source after source after source says that effective range for a B11 was 450m.

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Let me try it this way.

The AK-47 has a maximum range of 2,653m according to one source I found.
However its maximum EFFECTIVE range is 3-400m.

As DRG has said, the maximum range of a weapon has very little to do with it's maximum effective range.

This has also been an ongoing "issue" with my USMC OOB rebuild.
According to the US Army official manual the max effective range of the M16A1 was 460m. In practice however they considered it to be about 300m.
Meanwhile the USMC continued to require each and every Marine to fire (and pass) a qualification course that required them to hit a man-size target at 500m.

So who's "right" ?
The book?
The Army standard practice?
The USMC standard practice?

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Hello Don.

Well that you recognise that an effective range for these guns too small, even against M40 RCL. I am assured that at M40 RCL - a real effective range almost same as well as at B-11.
How much I understand, game itself does small chance of destroy unit if unit is very far from a gun, also it is influenced by experience crew. Limiting range of our gun - you actually put us in is unreal long odds with armour units.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

We used the effective range for these guns based on the information we could gather from a number of sources. It's NOT a matter of "Limiting range of our gun" when I'm using numbers supplied from various different sources and the Russian gun come up short in comparison. I didn't write the data we used, I just used the data that we had found. The data I have seen lately and in the past for the M40 gives it an EFFECTIVE range between 1100m and 1350m but I have also seen it as high as 2750m (maximum effective) and we don't use that number.... do we? So who was it that "assured" you the M40 equalled the B11 ?

I don't make up these numbers. They come from various sources and if I found source after source after source that said the B11 could fire 1400m effectively I would change it but I don't. What I find is source after source after source ( including one YOU provided ) saying 450m was it's effective range.

It has NOTHING to do with "Limiting" the Russian gun. WE still give it 38cm penetration because all the sources I find give it that value. Does anyone get on your case about "limiting" the B11 penetration to 30?

Andy and I discussed this earlier. He felt they were too low but all the research comes back to the original numbers being correct.

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

You have not understood me a little.
Let's assume that at 450 metres - B-11 100 % will be destroyed by the tank, from 600 metres - 80 % will be destroyed by the tank, from 1000 metres - 50 % will be destroyed by the tank, from 1300 metres - 10 % will be destroyed by the tank. All it not the present data, I have resulted these figures as an example. Approximately also it is possible to write and about M40 RCL.
Here is how you personally estimate effective range of shell B-11 in 450 metres when at this shell initial speed is equal 400 metres per second?
I am almost assured that data on the majority of English-speaking sites - are simply copied each other - therefore from them almost identical data.
There is an aim range of shooting at these guns... Certainly from a distance of 450 metres to get to the tank is easier than from a distance of 1000 metres. But to instructions it is written that 450 metres are range of a direct shot, instead of an effective shot. What is the direct shot? Is a shot on the tank through a sight needlessly to use a scale of amendments to a sight. It is not effective fire. HEAT the ammunition is not lost the penetration with increase in range of shooting, means about reduction of efficiency we can speak only as about accuracy reduction, instead of range of shooting. So? But as far as I know accuracy of shooting other indicators - parametre of the weapon define in game accuracy, fire control, range finder and exp. crew. So? Then and here range?

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

http://www.arld1.com/images/gifs/scopedemo13.gif--
On mine all problem in distinction of terms.
Shot, at which the trajectory does not rise above a line of an aiming above height of the target on all extent, has the name - a shot on <font color="green">point blank range </font>. Within the limits of <font color="green">point blank range </font>, during the intense moments of fight, shooting can be conducted without rearrangement of a sight.
In russian this range refers to "dalnost pryamogo vystrela"
or if translate it is literally -"range of direct shot"
So we have <font color="green">point blank range </font>for a B11 gun - 450 meters at initial speed of grenade 400m/s and weight of proectile near 7,5kg for 2m height target.
I think for m40a 106mm rcl at initial speed of grenade 500m/s <font color="green">point blank range </font> is near 600-800m .
For 106mm RCL m40a i saw some different definitions of range of fire :
1300-1500 m - effective range on the motionless targets, 1000-1100 m - effective range on the moving targets,
500-700 metres " best fighting range ",
about 2500-2700 metres with the modern aim equipment including a ballistic computer and new proectiles with high penetration.
IMHO 450metres for B11 RCL it " best fighting range ".

Alex (Krok)

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

We have change units.

change units:
unit 003 - radio 93
unit 006 - radio 93
unit 007 - radio 93
unit 013 - radio 73
unit 014 - radio 93
unit 051 - radio 93
unit 052 - radio 93
unit 053 - radio 93
unit 125 - radio 92
unit 132 - radio 92
unit 133 - radio 92
unit 253 - radio 92
unit 254 - radio 92
unit 262 - radio 72
unit 268 - radio 63
unit 454 - radio 93
unit 497 - radio 73
unit 498 - radio 73
unit 600 - radio 62
unit 602 - radio 62
unit 749 - radio 92

To download it it is possible from here: www.pecypc.kz/kramax/obat011.obf

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

I have forgotten to write about other changes:

change units:
units 394, 395, 396, 397 - change unit class Area SAM (16)

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

We have change units.

change units:
units 041-065, 067-090 - change unit class from 135 (Main Battle Tank) to class 059 (MBT). Have changed class units to that-that, the computer at purchase of armies in mission to disembarkation to coast (beach) - does not buy for units class 135 (Main Battle Tank) the barge.

To download it it is possible from here: www.pecypc.kz/kramax/obat011.obf

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

That will be fixed for the patch.

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

We have change units.

Remove units:
unit 770 - Rifle Inf Squad

To download it it is possible from here: www.pecypc.kz/kramax/obat011.obf

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

New PICKLIST for our OOB USSR/Russia:

To download it it is possible from here:

www.pecypc.kz/kramax/picklist/P0110000.Dat
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/picklist/P0110001.dat
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/picklist/P0110002.dat
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/picklist/P0110003.dat
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/picklist/P0110004.dat
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/picklist/P0110005.dat
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/picklist/P0110006.dat
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/picklist/P0110007.dat
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/picklist/P0110008.dat
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/picklist/P0110009.dat
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/picklist/P0110010.dat
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/picklist/p0110020.dat
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/picklist/p0110021.dat
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/picklist/p0110022.dat
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/picklist/p0110023.dat
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/picklist/p0110024.dat

www.pecypc.kz/kramax/picklist/PK011000.dat
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/picklist/PK011001.dat

www.pecypc.kz/kramax/picklist/PK201100.dat

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

^Do I have to d/l all those picklists just for Russian oob??? Why?

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

We have made PICKLIST for our OOB which we offer developers of game and developers OOBs to take for a basis in the workings out.
If you do not use our OOB - then you do not need to download these files.
These files are necessary that AI could buy correctly armies for game with you.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

I thought that WinMBT has only 1 picklist/nation/oob... So, if play as Russian (I mean with your oob), I must d/l all of picklists above, ok? Are they meant to describe different eras (50's, 60's, 70's, 80's etc. timelines)?

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

I do hope that in your end user support documentation (on your website or as part of the download?), you have shown the end users how to back up and restore the default AI pick list, for whenever they need to revert to the default OOB. Also, how to handle what happens on a game patch update (which will assume the default AI pick list file set, if changes are needed).

As AI pick list editing is not a supported game functionality - it is for hackers only - any support for issues arising with your mod is all up to you.

Any end users who have applied your new pick files, without taking a backup of the requisite default files - their game is likely now toast, should they ever have a need to restore the default OOB (e.g to play the stock scenarios or campaigns)

Cheers
Andy

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Yes.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Mobhack
-------------------
For our OOB I have established to myself on the computer one more copy of game.
Certainly, if people do not wish to establish to themselves in the computer one more copy of game they need to save preliminary old files that then they could be restored.

We do our OOB with a view of to show true in organizational structure of our armies, in technical characteristics of our technics, etc. We do not consider our OOB as MOD for game WinSPMBT. Therefore we do not supply our OOB with the documentation, etc. As we already wrote in the first post of this subject, we call you - developers and of other founders and designers MOD for your game - to pay attention to our OOB and to use it as a base variant for game.

I already a lot of time tried to discuss with visitors of this forum our OOB. On any our changes at us is links and proofs of our correctness. In our OOB we already discussed some details with the developer - DRG and other visitors and designers of this forum.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

You may not consider your "OOB as MOD for game WinSPMBT" but WE DO. If you modify the game data outside of an offical release IT'S A MOD.

IT THAT FULLY UNDERSTOOD?
You and your "mod" of this OOB are guests here. Please try and remember that.

I have explained to you that your reorganization of the OOB's units, formations and weapons will cause every scenario to fail that uses the Russian OOB in any way and for experienced players who use your OOB this is not a problem as we have built mechanisms into the game that allow players the ability to re-install the default game OOB's and / or any custom OOB's but picklists are entirely different and it is YOUR responsibility to ensure that everyone using your OOB's and picklists understands that.

<font color="red"> This is a warning to anyone using this OOB and these new picklists or ANY third party OOB's or picklists </font>

First and formost. Neither Andy nor I nor Shrapnel games officially supports this . If anyone runs into trouble using these modified OOB's ond/or picklists, or ANY modification of the game OOB's or picklists, that does not come directly from us, the game designers, you are on your own.

If you install this modified Russian OOB into your game EVERY scenario pre-existing in the game that uses the Russian OOB IN ANY WAY, will fail to play properly.

If you install these modified picklists and then decide to stick with the original game OOB's you MUST re-install the original picklists issued with the game for the AI to pick Russian forces correctly. This applies to this OOB or any other modification of the game OOB's or picklists that may exist for download on this or any other forum

It would be a very good idea for anyone issuing modified picklist to include the original ones in a subfolder so players can switch back and forth without having to track down every file they need.

Don

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

Also, any persons who want to apply any future official patches to the game and not get things messed up, need to remember to restore the game that they are about to patch to the official AI pick list standard before applying the patch update.

Any AI pick list changes may only be a partial file-set update. This would likely cause "interesting" side effects, should you have third party AI picks in place, so restore the AI picks to standard before any patch is applied.

Also - any backup AI pick set for that OOB, whether taken by yourself, or in a zip provided by the third party, may well now be invalid since new files were issued inside the patch. This issue is up to the third-party AI pick list supplier to resolve, not us.

There should be no problems with third party modified OOBS which have no AI pick list changes and respect the original formation dates and types. The OOB swapper can be used for these just fine as described in the Game Guide to restore the official OOB before you play any stock scenarios, for example.

Cheers
Andy

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

I all it understand.
Thanx.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

This OOB sounds very interesting but I am a bit concerned if it will totally mess up the game or if it is totally balanced. Just reading the posts on the B11 makes it sound like RR are going to be shooting down range 4000m! Since a HEAT round doesn't loose penetration over distance that would be a hell of a thing, who needs tanks?

Can the OOB be used without the pick lists if you never play against the AI?

Which version of the OOB is correct, the one on page 1? I noticed you made numerous changes so I want to make sure I check out the updated version.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

I welcome you Weasel.

Last version of our OOB it is possible to download here:
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/obat011.obf

You can not download Picklist files if you are not going to play against the computer (USSR/Russia).

Best regards.

Re: New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)
 

No. B11 cannot shoot HEAT shells on a distance of 4000 metres. Load our OOB and you will see that there costs normal - a real distance.
We created our OOB - that it has shown real arms and structures of our armies. We have tried to make so that we OOB has not destroyed the majority of scenarios for this game. Scenarios are strongly connected with slots the weapon - and we have tried not to change a weapon site (by council DRG), but we had to clean all nonexistent weapon or shells (for example RPG-1). Also we have cleaned weapon duplicates. We have specified the exact given receipts of arms in our armies (when we had data about the beginning a batch production - we used these data). I ask to pay your attention that we not only improved our arms, but also worsened it is since we did it only because of real data. On all our changes in game at us is link and data (unfortunately basically in Russian). We also asked developers to include in game new icons our military technics, drawn PlasmaKrab, have given new photos of units.
Work on our OOB is not finished yet - now we search for the errors and discrepancies. We have spent set of tests with our OOB - and we can tell that it does not break balance of game.
As soon as at us will be more time - we will necessarily tell more about our changes, but many of these changes are obvious also you can see them if will download and will try our OOB.

Sorry for my bad English.