Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Well all I can give is my actual, hands-on personal experience with the Thompson Submachinegun in a real world situation. If folks want to play a game based in Fantasy Island or with comic book realities, that is THEIR choice. I can understand folks who like to play as Soviet or Finnish troops, and the strong emphasis they place on their favorite weapons. But saying that a 9MM PISTOL cartridge or a 7.62X25 Soviet pistol cartridge can be fired at ranges of 500 meters effectively is just plain nonsense. Instead of relying on info that may be biased for whatever reason, why not just do an internet search of the M31, PPSh, Thompson, or Sten guns and see what the information is there. Look for maximim effective range. I think you will see, as I did, that it shows less than 200 meters. The info is available from numerous reliable sources online, and most all of them agree with each other. Forget about test scenarios, as they are already incorrect with the current settings that exist.

Dep

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

3 hexes is 150 metres, which is less than 200 metres (4 hexes).

Time to end this circular argument, you have your views and can edit your OOB set to whatever you feel is correct, with the Mobhack editor, should you wish.

Cheers
Andy

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Roger that!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Dep...salutes and heads for the OOB Editing room http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

And PLEASE don't forget to read the GG before you do so we don't have any further remarks like "Since each hex is 250 meters across ".... with two paragraphs of augments to support the flawed idea......... OK?

Also, Narwan AND PatG AND Marek_Tucan AND I have said the game results you claim to have seen are WAY out of whack with what everyone experiences. PatG suggested you " try a complete delete and reinstall " It is an excellent suggestion because NOBODY and I mean NOBODY ( but you ) thinks ........" the OOBs slanted so much at an Allied advantage in WinSPWW2 that altering the Preferences makes no difference whatsoever"

So , I would highly recommend that you delete your existing install and do new one. This has helped people in the past when things don't jive with what everyone else sees.

OK?

Don

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Whew, what a read. I for one don't think the OOB's are "out of whack". I've changed the odd thing for example increasing the HE kills points for the MG42 a couple points. However, besides Equipment and Units I have created myself, I have found little need for change.

As DRG has repeated and with great patience I might add, a lot of problems seem to arise based on how the player perceives the scale and how the players own tactical abilities are honed.

Many factors go into one shot from an SMG for example:
-Is it the Sqds primary weapon, or secondary (which means one SMG).
-Location of shooter(s) open, trees, dug in, moving, Buildings etc.
-Location of target, as mentioned plus elevation, same hex, etc.
-Type of troops.
-Leadership.
-Morale
-Experience.
-Any suppression.

Plus others I didn’t think of I’m sure

I wonder sometimes how many people who play this game, have played board games. The great ones could take some time to figure out all the factors involved in one shot, ever before the die were cast. Small campaign games could take months to play, and forget about fighting one battle in an evening. Saving the game meant putting it under lock and key so the kids, pets or even your spouse didn’t knock the board or worst yet dump it on the floor. Not to mention trying to find someone to game with and had a room they could shut off from the world for months or years.

This to me has always been the ultimate beauty of this game since it’s DOS days in 1994 IIRC. Since those days I’m sure thousands of upgrades and changes have taken place. At first by the paid devotees, then by many named and I’m sure nameless people for the love of the game. And yet we can still change hundreds if not thousands of things ourselves if we choose.

Steel Panthers Rules, I love the Game, and hey if something bugs you, YOU CAN change it, sometimes it takes time, but trust me it’s worth it.

Hope I didn’t go ranty.

Prosit, Panzer Bob

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

OT, but when I was small I made some makeshift rules (including D6) for vicious battles with 1/72 stuff (incl. soldiers) on the floor of my room http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And then came the Steel Panthers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Took me a while to start enjoying them (was way slower and more demanding in tbrain department than Dune 2;)) but then I caught on...

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Hi Mobhack.
Its not my world view its how these units were organised
have a look at
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/012_...brig-tank.html
it shows one SMG coy, 2 rifle coys.
here it is again in text from
http://theeasternfront.co.uk/Infantr...rydivision.htm
"Of the three rifle Companies, one was a submachine gun Company which rode with the tanks and two were lorry borne rifle Companies." ie from my first reference and from your reference we can see that all the LMGs are in the two lorry bourne coys.
and
"The submachine gun Company was comprised of a Company HQ and three rifle Platoons, each formed from a Platoon HQ and three 8-man squads, all riflemen being equipped with the PPsh-41 sub machine gun. From 1943 onwards, the number of men in the rifle squad was increased to ten."
From
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/..._battalion.htm
"There is no debate over their -SMG coy- transport. They were the Desant troops; they rode on the tanks.
Every man in the -SMG- Company carried the PPsh 41 SMG, there being no room for other support weapons;."
ie no room for weapons like LMGs antitank mines molotovs etc.

So we see that the tank desent squads are not the same thing as the SMG squads you mention. The SMG squads (with LMGs) travel in Lorries. The tank desant troops or tank rider coy (SMG only) travel on the tanks.
The two rifle coys operate just like the German truck bourne grenadiers ie independantly if need be. The tank desant troopps are different, they are tied directly to the tanks.

So in your OOB you have grouped both the lorrybourne rifle coy and the tank desant coy squads under the "tank desent coy". The Tank desant coy should actually have only one option, a squad of only SMGs. the other squads belong in your "Motor rifle coy" formation. The current SMG/LMG tank desant squad needs to be moved into the Motor rifle coy as a selection in the "infantry" section, post 43.
As for 'aquiring' LMGs a whole coy doesnt just suddenly aquire a LMG per squad, soemone has to find ammo for all these weapons and spare parts/barrels mags etc etc etc.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Chuck

I may consider your input, should I ever feel the need to edit the Soviet OOBs.

Andy

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Well I did the full removal, re-install and patch and I STILL think some weapons abilities are out of whack, along with the Preferences adjustment. And I'm grateful that I can edit the OOB to get them closer to what I think they should be.

As to my background, I am an old geezer (age 58) that started out on Avalon Hill WW2 board games back in the 60s. When Steel Panthers came out for computers, I was in 7th heaven. Gobbled it up along with Steel Panthers Modern Battles and the third version with Brigade-sized units (which I wasn't too crazy about). After that I grabbed the Talonsoft East Front and West Front comp games. I wish those dang things would run on WinXP, but everything I tried, which was about EVERYTHING you could do short of re-installing Win98 with a dual boot system, didn't work.
I bought Steel Panthers: World at War a few years ago, and other than the occasional crash to desktop and graphics driver issues, was an EXCELLENT sim. Most all of the problems have been corrected on it now. WinSPWW2 and WinSPMBT I recently purchased. Of the two, I prefer the modern battles. Just seems to have fewer "issues" with them as far as OOB is concerned. I will adjust the OOB of WinSPWW2 and over time get it to the way I like it. No problemo. Not sure what to do about the Preferences thing.

Dep

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Good Day, Deputy

First off Sir, I hope I didn't come off as insulting to you. My comments were meant generally. Even though you have 12 years on me your gaming background sure seems similar to mine, BoB being my first game I owned and then in to succession of AH games, then into ASL and my last obsession being MBT when Steel Panthers appeared.

I just read though everything again, and I just don't seem to have these problems. OR Maybe I'm working around them without a second thought these days, I play SPWWII a lot. I generally have my own SOP's for use of Infantry Weapons, MGs I expect suppression only, Rifles and AR's I try to limit them to no shots before 300m and even then I will try to wait until the enemy closes, Long Range AT, half range closer if possible. Infantry also try to make sure they in position several turns before having to engage. These SOP's are only Plan A of course. Just a glimpse of my tactics.

As mentioned I've increased MG42's to HE 10, decreases PIAT's to 100m, Bazookas and Panzershrecks to 200m. I decreased these two because of historical engagements ranges and the AI seems to use them like AT Guns instead of close in crewed AT rocket launchers.

Does this shed any light in your dilemmas?

Prosit!

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Hi Mobhack
As always happy to produce the altered OOBs for you, or do any other work that may be helpful. I know you are a busy man.
Best Regards Chuck

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Nahhh... no offense taken. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
The changes you made pretty much line up with what I plan on doing. Is there a thread or a file posted where people have made similar changes? Is the OOB a single file where if someone sent me theirs I could overwrite what I have to see how theirs works?

Really, the only big problem I have is with the Preferences adjustments. If I set one side at maximum, and one side at minimum, there should be MAJOR changes in the destructive power of one side over another. I don't see this happening. For armored vehicles, the changes seem to work well. But for Infantry, the changes don't seem to be as noticeable.

Dep

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

If you don't see it then you don't see it. I don't think any amount of "discussion" on the issue will change what you perceive even though others DO see a change when the preferences are altered the way you altered them.

FYI, I ran three AI vs. AI games using the preferences numbers you provided with the US side set to the bottom and the Germans set to the top and all three resulted in massive German victories and NONE of the battles had, in ANY way, ANYTHING even CLOSE to "Even with those changes in the preferences, the US Infantry appear to be supersoldiers." or anything else you described when you altered the preferences. What it sounds like is you were playing the US side at the maximum not the other way 'round. When you change the preferences you change the settings for player 1 or player 2 not specific nations

Game 1--meeter

Score.............Germany-2434..........US 52
Casualties.......Germany-32 men.......US--106


Game 2 German Advance

Score.............Germany-3035..........US 27
Casualties.......Germany-18 men......US--285


Game 3--US advance

Score.............Germany-3317..........US 101
Casualties.......Germany-33 men......US--281

All games were infantry heavy using 900 points as the base for P1


Don

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Well I've been using scenario #99 for my testing. I would expect that the Soviet tanks in that scenario would be blasted to pieces as soon as they show up. For the most part...THEY WERE. But even with concentrated fire from multiple tanks on an infantry platoon, the infantry received minimal casualties. And this was with assaulting Infantry in the OPEN...not dug in. The same problem existed with German Infantry vs Soviet Infantry. Minimal casualties. The Soviets DID withdraw. But with nowhere near the number of dead they should have. At this point I'm not sure if it's weapon setting (MG42 and 98K too weak), or Preferences settings not having a big enough effect. I am SLIGHTLY modifying the 98K and MG42 and I will see what happens after that.

Dep

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Oh please do not modify the stats of Kar98K. All bolt-action rifles of given calibre (or close ballistic performance) have the same acc and range and HE kill, because there are not any huge differences in them, one being much better than other. I understand that you can up the MG42 a bit, since it clearly was the best machinegun there was, but rifle differences as a whole are somewhat redundant in the scope of the game.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Kar98 too weak? In the test scen with min/max preferences a single squad's burst of Kar98's wiped out 6 men of the target squad. Good enough for me.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Hi Podoktar
I think the effective ranges of the various rifles do vary a bit, giving them all 10 is OK and I know no one is going to be bothered looking into it and its not worth the bother etc but they arnt all 500m. For example most sites quote the Garands effective range at 400m or 450m rather than the current 500m.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Let me give my reasons for upping the 98K to the same levels as the Garand....

#1 First of all, the .30/06 caliber cartridge of the Garand and the 8MM cartridge of the 98K have VERY similar ballistic numbers. So one cartridge is not superior to the other at the ranges thay are used at. Both kill at equal effectiveness.

#2. While the Garand does have more ammunition capacity 8 rounds compared to 5, there is a tendency among shooters to fire those rounds off without taking good aim at their targets. The user of the 98K tends to make the most out of HITTING his target, since he has fewer rounds and it is slower to shoot those rounds. Plus a skilled 98K shooter CAN fire off those rounds quickly and accurately. Consider Lee Harvey Oswald shooting Kennedy. He fired at a MOVING target in a vehicle where all he could see of the target was the head to the shoulders. Yet he managed to operate a beat up old Italian Mannlicher-Carcano bolt action rifle and hit Kennedy with 3 shots.

#3 The Mauser action is probably the strongest, most effective bolt action system of any bolt action rifle. It is still being used today by many countries as the basis for their sniper rifles.

#4 All bolt action rifles are not the same just like all machineguns or semi-auto rifles are not the same. That's just the way it is. The British Enfield rifle has a much "faster" action (it cocks on CLOSING the bolt) and holds 10 shots. I think that rifle is under-rated in the game too.

Dep

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Test games June 1945
US vs Germany

I set up a meeting engagement with a random map and VH placement and the AI Picking the forces and deploying each side. The AI fought both sides. All games used the identical save game file the only thing that changed was the settings.

Final points totals

........US 30%....Germany 250%
Game 1..342.......4782
Game 2..158.......5043

........US 50%....Germany 150%
Game 1..706.......4886
Game 2..346.......4936

........US 100%....Germany 100%
Game 1..1330.......4831
Game 2..1271.......4686

........US 150%....Germany 100%
Game 1..5638.......956
Game 2..5834.......391

........US 250%....Germany 30%
Game 1..6020.......248
Game 2..6042.......269

Changing preferences look good to me. If anything the Germans are slightly over-rated but this may be due to the terrain etc. The German points ratings at 150% and 200% seem to be because there were no more points to get. The US was destroyed or routed anf the Germans owned all VHs. At 100% the US was able to give the Germans a bloody nose by killing more kit but couldn't hold the field.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

It's not the RESULTS that I question concerning the Preferences, it's the body count/kill ratio that I find is "off".

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

OK then 2 different questions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
I don't much care about the body count as long as the end result comes out right. Can you tell I like to play as Russian and Japanese? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Difference in stats between weapons doesn't depend just on caliber and round used.

This opinion was being held by militaries when breech loaders came instead of muzzleloaders. Proven false (actually it was true breech loader toting soldiers fired more rapidly, but also with more time being devoted to aiming instead of loading). Then when repeater rifles came instead of single-shot breech loaders. Proven false. Then when self-loading rifles came. Proven false. Then when autofire-capable rifles came. Proven false.
In fact, Garand compared to Kar (or any other repeater) allows for significantly quicker re-engaging of target as you don't have to put the weapon off balance by moving hand back and operating the mechanism.
Anyway, curious why Germans or Soviets took the efforts to field SLR and later AR if it was all the same.

Did you notice that with rising experience in the game, the troops are a) more likely to hit and b) able to fire off more salvoes per turn? But if anything, this would speak contrary to upping kar as, as you wrote, skilled shooter can pull it off. However your regular conscripts most likely not, whereas they are able to get higher ROF from a SLR.

So... I assume Carcano should get kill of 2 as well? By the way also notice LHO was hardly your regular shooter. Also his target was pretty close and not too fast.

As is Enfield. Enfield system was also found to be quicker than Mauser, with skilled shooter able to reach (in practice firing, all with reloading) 40 shots per minute. Aimed, that is. This is comparable with what is being considered to be regular RoF for SLR. However, the problem is... That is skilled soldier. In-game, you can use formation with experience bonus. However expecting such a feat from your ordinary Tommy Atkins (or Hans Otto) is reaching.

Are the differences big enough to earn some bolt actions 200% HE kill over others? And bear in mind that the "primary weapon" is in-game treated like being fired by the entire squad. With 10 riflemen, you have a difference of "total" HE kill of 10 vs. total HEK of 20. Talk about overrated units...
If you mind so much the edge of SLR's (deserved IMO, but OK, that's the matter of discussion), more sensible would be to bring the SLR's down to bolt action level, IE give them HEK of 1 and simulate their edge over bolt actions say by higher accuracy.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

LOL...two nationalities I NEVER play. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

I've been informed from a reliable source that WinSPWW2 is much more "kinder" to, and makes it hard to hit Infantry.
I guess I should like that, since I was an 11B. But I am used to seeing things like flak guns tear the heck out of Infantry. Hard to hide from all that airborne shrapnel. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Dep

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

I may just try that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif