Re: Guide to communions
 

Anyone knows how does it put them in that order? Newly recruited mage may land in the 1st position, middle or end of the order.

Re: Guide to communions
 

Can't say for sure, but it's probably ordered by unit id#.

[edit] I don't know how to see a units' id#, AFAIK the number is fixed once the unit is bought, and I don't believe there's a way to find out what id# a unit will have at the point you buy it.

Re: Guide to communions
 

And they're recycled as units die. Which explains how new units get sorted above older ones.

Numbers for units that can be brought back from the dead must stay, but that's only a small fraction: Pretenders and the Hall, right?

Re: Guide to communions
 

In addition to Slaves casting a variety of spells, I was referring to the actual casting of Communion Slave and Communion Master. So my question was, in the first round, should all the Communion Slaves cast Communion Slave before any Communion Masters cast Communion Master?

Re: Guide to communions
 

It depends on whether you want the Slaves to cast in the same rounds as the Masters do or not.

Slaves that act before Masters get to cast. Slaves acting after Masters lose their action if the Master casts a spell, meaning you don't cast as many spells but the slaves don't get so badly fatigued.

Re: Guide to communions
 

First round doesn't matter, you're not in the communion until after the spell is cast. Of course, the order is the same for every round of combat, so any slaves who go first on round one will also be casting spells in the following rounds, which you may or may not want.

Re: Guide to communions
 

And, just to be clear, all slaves are added to the communion, whenever they cast Communion Slave. (Same with Masters)

The only thing casting order matters for is whether slaves can cast independently or not.

Re: Guide to communions
 

A little question just for fun: what happens if someone cast both communion master and sabbath master? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Guide to communions
 

They kill a blood slave to no good purpose?

Re: Guide to communions
 

Yeah, there's lots of times that different spells cause the same effect and the second spell doesn't actually do anything.

Strength of giants/rush of strength
Iron Will/Anti magic

And I suppose
Regeneration/personal regeneration
etc.

Re: Guide to communions
 

I just noticed that according to the stickied Bug Thread: The Shortlist, slaves being able to do this is a bug?

Re: Guide to communions
 

Nice guide Baalz. To much reading for me but it was still great. I always had it tough using communion since I didn't understand how to use it.

Re: Guide to communions
 

Do someone know how to know the order of mages coming from different provinces ? Is it sure the one displayed with "y" is the good one, and if I send mages to a province where there are already some, will those already in the province cast first ?

I try to do a (partially reverse) communion with mages coming from 4 provinces to one where there are already some communiants, using 'y' to see the order (but as all can't move to a same province I can't be totally sure, as all mages can't move to the same province I'm forced to do false moves to group destination mages with one other group then another etc..., and I'm not even sure 'y' works for that purpose).

ps :

The strange thing is : nowhere in the spell description or manual it is said that slaves aren't supposed to be able to cast (nor "to be able only if they cast before master"). I think communion slave spell description should be changed to be more clear (as it is, only old dom2 players remembering dom2 manual may know that casting slaves isn't a normal behavior).

Re: Guide to communions
 

I must say, its a really cool feature. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Dunno, perhaps it makes communions overpowered, but its cool for sure. Finally, some use to Power of the spheres that costs too much fatique otherwise. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Guide to communions
 

It's clearly a bug imo.
Either all slaves can cast spells or none of them, but those who have a lower id can cast is indeed buggy.

Now, if you use 32 communicants and 1 master just to empower them, you don't really need the master to cast spells afterward anyway.

Re: Guide to communions
 

Let us swap commanders ID's for good! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Guide to communions
 

Has this been changed in a recent patch? I cant get my communion slaves to do scripted action under any circumstances where a communion master is on the field of battle.

Pythium MA.
4 Theurg Communicants armed with bows of war scripted to fire at closest.

2 regular Theurgs scripted to buff. master/ether/quickness/luck/mistform
master/divine bless/aim/windguide/fanaticism

I've tried with Theurg Communicants as the slaves and with regular Theurg's scripted to cast communion slave/fire at closest.

The slaves appear above the masters in the army setup screen.
The bows never fire while the communion masters are on the field of battle. What have I missed?

Re: Guide to communions
 

Strange. I don't think anything has been fixed recently, last time I used one, reverse communions seemed to work as described in this guide, at least if you script slaves to cast spells (perhaps only the order "fire" is discarded ? or there was a fix in 3.15 I didn't noticed)

Re: Guide to communions
 

Theurg Communicants are Pythiums auto commune slaves, right?
They may be handled differently?

Did they fire even the first turn?

Also, with that few slaves, they'll go unconscious quickly.

Re: Guide to communions
 

No they never fired.

Fatigue stayed well below 100 for the first 8 turns or so. All of the non-casters in the communion just ...stay put.

I tried with regular Theurgs as well as Theurg Communicants. Either it's changed or I've missed something basic.

Re: Guide to communions
 

Hmmm, can you get them to cast spells? I actually haven't equipped bows on the slaves in quite a while so I suppose it might have changed, but I have the slaves cast spells all the time....er...though I suppose not in 3.15 yet. Seems unlikely such a change snuck in unannounced though.

Re: Guide to communions
 

Yes, my Theurgs will cast spells as slaves.
They will also cast scripted spells as slaves.
They (both Theurgs and Theurg Communicants) will use the bows when they are not in a communion.
In a communion as slaves I can't get them to use the bows. They do appear above the masters in the army setup screen.

It does seem like a large thing to be altered without being mentioned in a change log. ....

Re: Guide to communions
 

It is possible I've misremembered how this works, as I said it's not my usual MO. I'll test it out tonight to verify what you're saying and update the guide.

Re: Guide to communions
 

So spells work, but not bows. Interesting. Makes sense, actually.

Spells come before firing in the turn sequence. So by the firing comes up, the masters have cast, used the slaves fatigue and the slaves count as having acted.

Re: Guide to communions
 

I verified that it does indeed work as thejeff suggests. Movement and Melee as well, they resolve after the casting phase. The only way to leverage this is to have an item which casts spells, though with anybody except the communicant this leaves the window open for the AI to cast something else after the first 5 turns.

Anyway, thanks for the catch, I've updated the guide.

Re: Guide to communions
 

Ok. Thanks for the explanation.

Since Pythium is archer-poor. I was thinking it would be a nice little surprise to buff up some communicants to reign down fire arrows on the other side.

Given that's the case. There seems to be little use for the communicants. Sure, the Theurgs are more expensive, but they're a lot more versatile as well.

Re: Guide to communions
 

Yes, the primary problem with communicants is that of opportunity cost. As you point out, you could have theurgs instead, and you've got a limited number of castles. I will say though that in testing this last night I did do a very nasty linebacker communion with communicants - 8 slaves, 3 masters. Masters cast mistform, personal luck, twist fate, quicken self, mirror image, breath of winter, then the masters fired the bows I had equipped to them. Pretty hideous damage output and the mistform + luck + twist fate made the communicants last plenty long enough wielding that quickened frostbrand to deadly effect....

Re: Guide to communions
 

In a recent post here:
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...912#Post605960
some info was added that seemed relevant to help clarify the danger of communion boosting for high level spells when your slaves don't have the the right paths. It may be in the guide but I thought this spelled it out pretty well and may be worth including in the Superman section:

Re: Guide to communions
 

Thanks Don, added it to the original.

Re: Guide to communions
 

I just thought about a nice trick. If you have tough slaves with regen (Ulmish Vampire counts are a good example), then when you cast Holy Avenger with your master, every single point of damage done to slaves through fatigue will result in a nice smiting divine bolt. Needs testing, but I'm pretty sure it should work)

Re: Guide to communions
 

It doesn't hurt, unless you have something better to cast on them. It's not every point of damage, of course, only every round in which they take damage.

-Max

Re: Guide to communions
 

If one of the masters is sacred and gets a bless do non-sacred slaves get the bless effect?

Re: Guide to communions
 

No. For 2 reasons. First, they're not sacred so wouldn't get it.
Second bless isn't a caster target spell, so they wouldn't be affected by the master getting blessed even if they were sacred.

Re: Guide to communions
 

Does it help if the master spends addtional gems? In this case, using 2 more D gems to reduce 160 fatigue for each slave seems very cost-effective.

Re: Guide to communions
 

I´m not sure, but I think that extra gems reduce fatigue only for the caster, not for the slaves.

Re: Guide to communions
 

Hi!

There r some fact that i cant deduce from what i have read here and in the manual. I was experiencing (its my first try) with communions this morning, trying to get a feel for it. Here is the list of my commanders:

A - basic mictlan priest, B1H1, enc3
B - mictlan priest with 1 exp. star, B1H1, enc3
C - tepeyocatl A1B1, enc 4
D - hpots, B3F2H3, enc 6

D has 30 blood slaves. (it seems that unlike the other gems, blood slaves are common goods, every commander can use the other's (btw: from what distance can a mage use a blood slave in combat?).

The battle takes place in magic+1.

1 round:
A,B,C casts sabbath slave. using 1 slave apiece, so we r down to 27. A,B gets to 93 fatigue (that I understand), but C to 95 (i think it should be 94 but nvm, its only 1 diff), then D casts sabbath master: number of slaves: 24, so D's fatigue is 28 (just as i expected).

2. round:
D casts hell power. reamining slaves:21. its fatigue is 300 (270 with M+1), so each participant gets about 67. D has B4 now, so it's 33 for him, plus enc, so theoretically he gets to about 33+28=61, which is in reality 60, but its ok. Now the slaves get their share of the fatigue. They get 67 apiece, but because they r just B2 mages (HP is a B3 spell), it should mean 93(1st round)+134(HP)+3(enc)=240 total fatigue for A, right?
In reality his fatigue is just 157, which means he got 64 fatigue from th hell power spell. Its about the one-fourth of 270, so it seems he didnt get penalized for having only B2 for a B3 spell. (?) (its not that he gains HP's effect first then fatigue second, because the master didnt get it either)

3. round:
D casts Reinvigoration. new fatigues: A:53,B:47:,C:53,D:0. Counting the reinvigoration5 they got from hell power, thats about -100 fatigue on the slaves (for some mysterious reason B got a little less).

It worth mentioning, that for Reinvigoration D used 2 extra slaves, but didnt need to. My perception is that pots dont cast Reinvigoration unless i script it, and they always used 2 extra slaves so far (two tries only, so small pool of evidences, but its totally needless)


after the 5th round three lesser horrors appeared to indicate their appreciation for the invitation for lunch. They left well fed.

I'd appreciate any comments, but the main question is: why did the slaves get 64 fatigue instead of 134 on the second ruond?

Re: Guide to communions
 

Hell Power boosts all paths by 2, not 1.

Re: Guide to communions
 

Right, but they shouldn't get the effects of Hell Power when casting it, should they? The B2 (for fatigue from the master's spells only) is from the communion.

But then I don't even understand why they only get 93-95 fatigue from Sabbath Slave. Shouldn't they get 100+enc?

Re: Guide to communions
 

Magic-1 scale gives 10% less fatigue?

Re: Guide to communions
 

Right. Missed that.

Re: Guide to communions
 

300*[1/((4-3)+1)] = 150 fatigue; per person/4 = 37.5 ish per person. However, they are incapable (at b2) of casting the spell, so the encumbrance is doubled.

37.5 * 2 = 75 + 2*2 (their armor encumbrance) + (6/4)*2 = 3.
so the encumbrance should be 82.

You didn't say if this is under vanilla or cbm so the fatigue can vary between 99, 100-, etc.

So after the first round 93 + 82 second round = 175 minus the second turn recuperate. Also minus any additional negatives due to province magic scales.

The AI will almost always use gems if casting a spell without gems will result in fatigue going over 100.

I do not off the top of my head remember the cost for Reinvigorate. I seem to recall 300. Regardless, so long as the fatigue is at least 100, all the slaves will cap at 200.

My guess is that reinvigorate is something like b^2*DRN. This is my personal guess, and nowhere documented.

175 fatigue ( -8 province - 4 recuperate) = 163 fatigue
- 16*7=112 fatigue is 51ish fatigue.

Re: Guide to communions
 

Wait, is that how it works? Fatigue based on the masters level (w/ Communion bonus), divided by # in the communion then adjusted for the slaves level?
I'd thought it was base fatigue divided among the participants, then adjusted for each one's level.
That'll come out the same if casting spells at the master's effective level, but reduce slave fatigue drastically for lower level spells.

Re: Guide to communions
 

What about a group of mages casting communion slave without masters?
Do they boost each other paths?

Re: Guide to communions
 

The Baalz guide seems to indicate so, but only for the puposes of taking fatigue... which would be what you're probably after. That would be very effective with warlocks if it was the case.

I also wonder... if you have just one high level mage be the slave, can't your little mages be spam casters? Say if the FoB 10B is the slave, you get sacked early on, and all your magelings cast Agony? The 10B blood fountain can cast agony a whole bunch of times, far more than most armies could ever endure.

Re: Guide to communions
 

Slaves without masters are pointless. Their paths are boosted but only for the purpose of absorbing fatigue *from spells cast by masters*.

Re: Guide to communions
 

No. Slaves casting communion slaves *without* a master do not have their levels boosted.

However, untested, and yet I believe it to be true - once any communion master is cast, the slaves retain the boost even if the master dies or retreats.

Re: Guide to communions
 

Its not a general boost. It only applies to fatigue generated by spells cast by masters. So while the effect may persist if the master dies/retreats, it can't do anything.

Re: Guide to communions
 

With reverse communions you can have more mages in the communion actually casting spells, however in this case there is no communion fatigue reduction, and the slaves don't get boosted in their paths. What they do get is simply the buffs the masters cast on themselves. Thus, if a simple buff (such as earthpower) on all your mages would provide sufficient power/fatigue reduction to handle casting a desired spell, then it might be a better option than a normal communion.

A specialized type of reverse communion is the linebacker communion. The mechanic is the same: every slave gets whatever self buffs the masters cast. However now the idea is to turn a bunch of mages into thugs: have masters buff up with Invulnerability, Mistform, Regen, Quicken Self, Personal Luck, Twist Fate, and whatever else. Then a bunch of fragile mages suddenly become very difficult to kill. Masters can even retreat the battlefield once they cast their buffs, removing them from harm way, and the effect on the slaves continues (interestingly, the masters don't share all the buffs, they only get whatever they had cast).

I'm just waiting to see the Bogarus linebacker communion strategy: they are ripe for it. Maybe even better are the R'lyehs of all ages: all their mages are high hp and boast life drain.

Re: Guide to communions
 

Pans are excellent linebackers. If you have access to some indy mages with astral, you can buff them pretty close to insane efficiency. I still drool over the linebacker Pans I had in the Magellan game; had an amazon priestess with S1H1, amazon sorceress with S1A1 and a Pan acting as the masters -> the linebacker Pans got Holy Avenger, Luck, Ethereal form, ResistMagic, Astral Shield, Mistform, Shock Resistance, EarthPower, Stoneskin, Personal Regen, Elemental Fortitude and finally Reinvigoration (at which point the masters retreated off field and the linebackers went forwards to deal some pain).

It lasted for a very short while sadly, as then the Armageddons started and the amazons didn't live through them :(

Re: Guide to communions
 

Sorry.
"Slaves boost the power of both slaves and masters inside the communion by 1 per power of 2. This means +1 at 2 slaves, +2 at 4, +3 at 8, etc"

If +1 at 2 slaves than it would be +1 at 2 slaves, +2 at 4, +3 at 6, +4 at etc".

Where is the truth?