Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

haha http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

It took me about a month (tho to be fair half the time was shrapnel the other half another distributer) to get my copy of dom3, and there were plenty of times while waiting that I wished and wished that there was a direct download. Now that I have the game though, I can barely remember the distress caused by only being able to play the demo for a month!

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

The following is a completely personal general opinion and in no way represents the official Shrapnel Games position. It is also, despite its wording, not a reflection on any single poster here, but a more general rant on customer service and how things tend to be delineated in that field wrt specific services.

About the "Customer is always right" argument: It is usually full of crap. Very often really smelly, liquid variety of crap.

I happen to work in customer service, giving tech support to people when their internet connections go down or they have some other problem and most of them are either pig-ignorant or outright goddamn morons. Yet all of these arseholes who call me to fix their problems presume to tell me how to do my job and insist that "The customer is always right!". That particular line is the surest way to make the customer service person you're saying it to wish that you'd drop dead or at the very least bugger off and not come back. My job is to make sure that the connection from the network to the customer's DSL modem is okay so that he can use broadband. IF the customer calls and whines about his computer being infected with a virus or that he did something and now all his files are deleted or his computer broke down or whatever, I could not care less. I don't give a flying fornication about those problems since I don't get paid to fix them and I especially don't like it when idiots get shirty with me about that. Those services are provided by various other parties, including equipment manufacturers, but the problem is that most of the people demanding that service from us are cheap bastards who don't want to pay for anything.

If someone provides a service under certain terms and at a certain price, that is their right. Just because the customer demands some other kind of service, or additional service on top of that or wants to put conditions on how far he will obey the terms of service after he agrees to use the service on the terms provided does NOT mean that he is entitled to it or that he is right in his demands. If he's not satisfied, he can go elsewhere. Unless the service is unique, in which case he's stuck with it and all the crying in the world won't do him any good.

All of the above presumes that the service we're talking about is being provided as described and competently, which Shrapnel does. The "Customer is always right" whinge only has traction if the service is being provided incompletely compared to description, otherwise fraudulently or if the cutomer is being treated like crap and basically being pissed on. At which point in an otherwise competently run business the people responsible for that are going to have the management falling on them like a ton of bricks.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

It's very hard to define "a glaring interface/ai issue". Even if they are "well-known", they aren't actually discussed here, on the forums where the devs might see it. The only example I could think of right now is the fact that dead nations completely vanish from the score graphs, and while that's annoying it isn't game-breaking. If you want to discuss this further, I suggest doing it in another thread.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Wow. It is suddenly clear to me. Edi's years of posts make perfect sense now that I know he works in tech support. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

(BTW, I say this as a fan; I love the unit database and have found it absolutely invaluable in MP).

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

On the contrary, dominions gamers are a special tenacious breed of gamer adapted to survive in conditions too extreme for less hardy specimens. These remarkable players have adapted to survive and flourish in surroundings filled with such dangers as unintuitive interfaces, undocumented features and inexplicable battle AI behavior. Even ferocious bugs are no deterrent to their industrious efforts, where they have adapted mods to combat these fearsome creatures so feared in more hospitable environments. But despite the best efforts of the tribe, young newbies still fall victim to the numerous hazards, leading to declining numbers in this remarkable culture. Next week- Exploring the Mysteries of the Dwarf Fortress Dwellers: How Do They Tell Where They Put Buildings.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

The reasoning that leads to more nations is that JK and Kristoffer make the game for fun. They both have adequate incomes outside illwinter, and at least in Kristoffers case no desire to become a full time developer. The strengths as well as the weaknesses of the game are all a reflection of this. Your post almost make it sound like this is some sort of moral failure. Besides the nations vs AI interface is a red herring, in the illwinter division of labour Kristoffer does the nations, and he doesnt have the skills to fix any AI or interface issues no matter how much he wanted to. So the new nations does not in any significant way impact AI, bugfixes or interface issues.

The above is a different issue from the digital download, which is entirely shrapnels decision, I think you conflate the decisions of shrapnel and illwinter. Kristoffers post was a joke, I assure you he is not personally invested in not providing digital download. Illwinters interest in these matters are to do stuff they enjoy and avoid hassles, with the bonus of making a few bucks out of their hobby.

Edit: I would also like to point out that illwinter do certainly listen to customers, and try to meet their requests within reason.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Bah...

This is pathetic, and as said above, not going in circles at all. It's just reasonable people trying to change the opinion of a brick wall. Distribution for dominions 3 is just as the game is. A good concept served by the bare minimum acceptable services.

Dominions has a pretty good concept. As a game, it's good, interesting, because it's different and has many possibilities, including above average modding abilities, factions that do not feel the same, possibily for long game and much much more... However, compared to most other games, it has crappy graphics, unattractive and unintuitive UI, weak AI, little balance between different factions.

Same goes for distribution. Instead of using distribution methods that goes with the current times, it remains backward. Actually, I wonder why smoke signals ain't used ! Even forgetting digital distribution (which space empire does), the distribution services doesn't even offer to use "fast" delivery services like UPS or DHL.

I saw a little above a set of "reasons" for which digital distribution is bad. Let's review them :
Everything but the conclusion is correct. The cost per copy is higher, but it sells more copies. Therefore you can't say that digital distribution is by definition bad because it costs more money. Given the fact that dominions pretty much needs internet to be interesting (updates, maps, community, multiplayer) it's rather obvious that many potential buyer look away from the game for this reason.

Elitist thinking like this does give the game a far worse name that more newbies will. Furthermore, the manual isn't up to date, and many things are not in the manual, which means that if I follow what you say, people already have a bad understanding of the game. And are already giving it a bad name. Finally : you are assuming that people need the manual ? Have it sent by mail even if you buy it online ! Why should disappear all of a sudden ?

... that was the most ridiculous argument ever. It's not pirates you spot, it's idiots. The ones that want to pirate the game and have half a brain working won't speak about the manual at all. And won't be caught by such a simple thing.

Furthermore, does it also mean that anyone playing the demo, since it doesn't come with the manual, is giving the game a bad name ?

And, in order to end this argument, ever considered the slight possibility that it might actually be true in some cases ? There is a number of reason why it could be : theft, fire, accidental destruction, lost when moving to another place...

That is already done by other company and there is no problem with it. Why should it be a problem for shrapnel ? Are they dumber than others or something ? Besides cdkey scams already exist since the game can be resold. It's not a problem associated with digital distribution at all !

Why ? I mean, That is already done by other company and there is no problem with it. It's just a different writing of argument four. Saying it twice doesn't make it true.

Putting the same argument twice doesn't make it more true. More costs ? Yes, obviously. More sales ? yes obviously. I'm among those that believe that the new sales (given what the game is) will lead to more profits that the new costs.

That said, I don't really expect things to change to online distribution. However, I won't stand idle when people say that it is inherently bad, because it isn't. It's different, but not better or worse.

However, an option for a faster delivery service than 7 days (or more...) is really needed... 48 hours worldwide is pretty much standard nowadays when it comes to delivering books and dvds. Actually, except for dominions 3, I can't even remember when I last ordered something that takes so long to arrive.

Well, I'm in the process of waiting for the game to arrive. Which may take up to a month. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif Let's hope others after me won't have to.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

I would argue that dom3 has a decent balance between factions compared to most games, most games with any noticable difference between factions doesn't have that good a balance. Not that dom3 is perfect in this regard, but I think it does ok.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Actually, I get the impression that the community is still growing nicely, which is impressive so long after release. Newbie games still fill up very quickly (the last one got loads of genuine newbies very fast), and the LlamaServer has no fewer than 20 games on it at the moment (will be 23 in a couple of days), which is really a lot, especially considering it is only one of several servers (and presumably there are any number of people playing MP outside of this forum).

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Yes, the moderate balance is pretty good overall except in a few extreme cases (like MA Ulm). If those nations were brought up to moderate standard I would be a happy camper. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Hi all. I've been following this thread and thought you should hear the official Shrapnel position with regards to Dominions 3. I will attempt to do this while answering some of what has been said in this thread. I also have a few questions.

Interesting comment. kasnavada, what would make our services more than the minimum acceptable?

Do you really want to get into Space Empires, a game that less than 9 months after release was selling for $10? There's a model we don't care to emulate.

We used to use UPS and Fedex. 1 in every 7 international orders had to be reshipped. That is why we don't use them anymore. Now, on average, we have to reship about 6 packages a year.

Most packages are delivered within 3-7 days. Any longer is a function of the shipment being held in customs. The same thing happened with both UPS and Fedex.

This goes to the whole digital distribution model. We have researched this and we use it with a number of our games so we know what is what. The assumption is false when it comes to niche games. A game like Dominions will not sell noticeably more copies. It will just shift a percentage of sales from physical product to digital. And for publishers in niche markets looking to minimize costs this is unacceptable since you will print less physical product and therefore increase costs. Also, distributing a manual in electronic format for a game where the manual is almost a necessity just plays into the pirates hands. Want to know the most searched on term that leads people to Shrapnel Games? 'Dominions 3 Manual'. This accounts for almost one third of all searches that come to our site. We are sort of happy that the pirates have a hard time with the game. Actually that's not true, we are very, very happy that the pirates have a hard time with the game.

Based on the above the only answer would be to go to a totally electronic distribution model. I would love to do this. No inventory hassles, no printers to deal with, fewer employees... the list goes on and on. And one day we may do this, but right now we just don't see it as an option for a game as popular and as niche as Dominions 3. To limit piracy, we would have to go to a system like Steam uses and I personally refuse to do this. I don't think that the person buying the game should be the one penalized for spending their hard earned money in support of our developers.

A thought: Wonder why Steam doesn't sell physical products? I mean, your arguments are we would sell more if we had digital distribution. Wouldn't Steam sell more if they had physical products too? Funny how the digital distribution argument is never turned around.

Want some other interesting facts? We get about 1 support request for every 100 (approximate number) physical games sold. For every download product, we get about 17 support requests for every 100 games sold. Talk about costs. Know what the most expensive single component to a game is? Support. That is why so many of our competitors have such lousy support. So lets do something that increases that cost. In this thread people have talked about getting Dominions cheaper if we had digital distribution. Actually the opposite is true. Digital distributed products cost us more than physically distributed games.

I really want to write more, but have to leave for a meeting now, so I will leave this here and try to get back to it later.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

First, read the informative post by Tim Brooks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

As Tim said, it doesn't really decrease costs, but rather increases them.
Furthermore, if we rule out a PDF manual (it's pretty clear that a PDF manual isn't going to happen.), even if we exclude all of Tim's previous arguments, the product becomes more expensive for Shrapnel - the production costs stay the same, while bandwidth and support costs are added. (support for the actual digital distribution service.)
So, you're wrong.
Actually, ignore the support costs, since Tim mentioned them. But still, bandwidth costs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Responses to the following quote are in bold inside the quote.
Also, thanks for all the sarcasm kasnavada, it really makes your post enjoyable http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Woah, I certainly got more answers than I expected.

Not that I have much more to add anyway, but I'll answer what people ask.

To Tim Brooks :
I said in my post, the bare minimum is (at least for me) what dominions 3 lacks compared to other games in the same category... graphics, UI, AI, shipping possibilities... well AI is a special matter since in most games people think that the AI is weak anyway. And given all possibilities that this particular game proposes it's no wonder that it's easy to outhink it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif.

I didn't say anything about the music, for example, because it's great. That makes me think that you can do it for the other things that dominions 3 offers.

Well, that means I'll have to comment on your opinion of dominions 3. You say, a niche game. I say : why should it be one ? But comments on this thread (including your answers) makes me believe that dominions 3 wants to remain a niche game, played by a few, known by a few.

I can't help but think : if that or that was better, it might attract more players to try and play the game. It might also be easier to introduce that games to my friends to play with them. It might attract more people, therefore more competition, making the game harder.

That said, I'm nothing but a player. One among many. Some people like the fact that it is a niche game and enjoy playing less known games, because of many personal reasons. And it's not my place to say what the game should be. However, what I can say is what I think could make the game better. And that's what I did.

That's not what I said, nor want. Actually, I've no complaints about the price. I actually think that some would pay more to get the game faster. What I wanted to say is that I as a customer and probably many others would like the possibility of having to choose how fast the content you sale is shipped.

For example : either ship it with "default" mail service and it comes at reduced price but longer waiting time, or use another one and get it delivered faster (of course the price is higher).

Well, it will make your job less easy and is a selfish demand from some in the playerbase. As justly said above by others, you don't have to obey because I pay for it. I merely suggest it, and I do think it's needed. If you don't, however... well. You certainly have good reasons for it. Reasons that, as a player, I can't know. However, no one's harmed by asking.

As for your experience on online distribution, you're saying that it will not sale better, I've got no choice but to believe it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

For your comments on Steam, actually, I'm pretty sure people have been asking for print-outs of the game manuals and live cds and other stuff like this. However, they can answer "we don't do this because so and so company does". For example : for space empire, why should they (steam) sell a hardcopy of the game when you can go to your local game store and buy it ? Or when gamersfront offers the game ? The situation is not the same as Dominions 3 because there are other ways to buy the same product.

Finally, to Agrajag :
About the content of the quotes :
Well, Tim Brooks' post summed it nicely.

About the manual and anti-pirate policy.
I did spend time on the forum and did find the 'I lost my manual' thread. Actually, I'm rather happy I did, because it showed me 2 things : the manual actually is useful (unlike most other games out here), and made me laugh a bit when 1 or 2 pages back the same question was answered because it had no 'I lost my manual' excuse in it.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

I agree http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
But I had to respond in spite of Tim's post because I am a follower of the great god Argumemnon and according to our holy Argumentative Codex we are not allowed to "drop" an argument http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Unfortunately, Argumemnon is a niche god without digital distribution http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Tim;

Thanks for that answer, that was very satisfactory and thoughtful answer. It's good to see that you've considered the issues carefully and it looks now as if you've taken very sensible decisions.

Also, I just went to dominions3.com to remind myself of how awful it is - and it's been revamped! Hurrah! I don't know how long ago it changed, but when I last looked at it (probably a long time ago to be fair) it was just a "coming soon" page. Now it looks really nice and very professional. The screenshots are well chosen too.

If I may suggest adding another couple of links to the website: a link called "reviews" pointing at the "What they're saying" page on Shrapnel would be an excellent idea (since those reviews are so glowing). Also I'd suggest giving detailed guides and lots of pictures for a couple of races (the guides are pretty much ready in the community and I'm sure people would be happy to let you use them) with little thumbnails for all the other races, showing the amazing range of fascinating things available in the game. The people who like games like Dominions absolutely love reading about such details online, and it would really encourage sales I think. Certainly it would work on me.

Finally a link to a couple of AARs would be good. At the moment there are few high quality AARs around. However, if you said here that you wanted a couple, I'm sure we'd all start beavering away and you could choose the best two and put them up. Seriously, AARs are amazing sales tools, it's very hard to read one for a good game without salivating.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

A few comments about Dominions III "weaknesses"...

User Interface - I got used to it. I cannot quite remember if anything ever bothered me... Maybe the left vs right click to move.

AI - Better AI would be great. Not going to happen. What I, as a programmer, would love happening is for Dominions to provide a way for us to build our own AIs and have them fight. It will be way too processor intensive for anything but AI duels, but I would still love it.

Graphics - I have no problem with them. Two sprites, clean and simple. Better camera control, zoom and replay mechanisms would be nice.

Balance - Good considering the variety. With a few glaring problems - wimpy MA Ulm, currently crippled LA Vanheim...

Service - What's wrong with the service?

Shipping - I got both my copies (2 & 3) within a week. I had the demo to keep me busy. I loved it when I could finally check Pythium, which had been impressing me in the demo.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Don_Seba: What do you mean about camera control? Do you know PgUp, PgDn and the 4 cursor keys allow you to move it in all 6 directions (plus f for fast forward and n for 'next round')?

The graphics for the sprites are actually largely really very good indeed, once you get used to them being 2D sprites.

I didn't know there was anything wrong with LA Vanheim either.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Tim Brooks: We live like 10 miles from one another, can I buy you a beer sometime? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

On a marginally related note, if someone were to compile User Interface improvements would there be any chance of seeing them get considered? Three examples off the top of my head:

1) Commanders should be able to dump all their gems into a lab without using hotkeys or clicking 30 times.
2) Item Transfer Screen: Laboratory should be at the top of the list instead of the bottom. (Requested several times I think)
3) Nation Overview (F1): Cannot sort anything on this screen. Ideal improvement would be for the top row with the column titles to be "locked" and persist when you scroll up and down, and clicking on the title of a column would sort by that column, first, ascending then descending.

Someone also suggested player scores persisting on the score graphs. Very good suggestion. I'm sure every player has 1 or 2 "nitpicks" about the interface that when put together would really serve to improve the game on a significant level. But it's kind of a wasted effort if the current interface is set in stone.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Tim, thank you for responding to the points presented in a meaningful, accurate way. I have two points.

1. I think you overstate the manual as a form of DRM. People get help on the forums all the time. There's a path boosting guide there as well. In game there is a description for every spell that is mostly accurate, every unit's stats can be gotten simply by looking at them. That is to say that not having the manual makes the game more difficult to play, but for someone pirating the game there are plenty of other resources that supplement, replace, and otherwise correct the manual that are readily available on these forums and the dom3 wiki, that you really don't even need the manual.

Actually, your best form of DRM is banning cd-keys from playing online by releasing updates. DOM3 single player leaves a lot to be desired from the AI.

2. You said that the cost of producing the manuals would go up if you starting making PDFs because the size of your manual runs would go down since people would switch over to digital distributions and this would negate any savings from not having to press + print + mail the physical media. Maybe I'm being simple here, but it seems like to me all you would have to do is keep the print run at the same size, the trade off being that you'd have a higher inventory for a longer period of time.

Jazzepi

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

It's Illwinter's choice what they implement, but the chance of them implementing what you want is bigger if they know what you want. If there was a good list, with all the points in the first post and everything written well AND CATEGORIZED by importance, it would be very useful for Johan. Without categorizing, it's just a wishlist thread, which can offer hints but doesn't help in getting the important stuff before "important". Telling the difference between those two is quite hard, though. As an example, the score graphs persisting is trivial for some (who disable scoregraphs), and very important for others (who "score" themselves against other nations).

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Jazzepi, while the Shrapnel cleaning lady hasn't chimed in yet to tell you this same point, everyone else has. How about accepting it and moving on?

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

I guess you're not struck by the same bewilderment as I am that you're posting in a thread telling someone else to move on. I think this is a case of following your own advice.

Jazzepi

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Tim Brooks:

You can download manual in pdf.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Tim and Shrapnel,

Thanks for the post... I appreciate sharing your reasoning here concerning digital distribution. I do think your argument sounds reasonable. I'm not sure I'm totally swayed (mostly about the piracy thing) but you make a lot of sense and have obviously thought it out.

Also thanks for not locking this thread and allowing the discussion!

To Illwinter,
My apologies if my post sounded rather harsh - I just really like the game and just think it would be greatly served by AI and (especially) UI improvements.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

I'm back. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif Sorry it has taken me so long to return...

Why should it be a niche game? It shouldn't be! I agree totally. But wanting it not to be doesn't make it so. We could make it more user friendly, give less options, improve the graphics over gameplay... and on and on. It would be a smash hit probably, but it wouldn't be Dominions. It would be a totally different game.

Sometimes I think people believe that this game isn't well known. Would you believe we have had millions of downloads of the demo? But it remains a game that is niche, based on sales. You can't change that by wishing it so. You can't change that by any means other than changing the game. There is a reason the major publishers don't have a Dominions clone. It isn't a major market. Now that doesn't mean it hasn't sold well. It has for a niche game. Can it sell better? I believe that it can. Shrapnel is pretty darn good at what we do. But don't beleive for a minute that we think we are perfect. We are always working to be better. But you have to do it smartly if you want to remain in business.

And we want you to. The developers want you to. Please don't stop. And continue to question the way we do business. We really do read these posts and we consider what is said here.

We used to do this. But it wasn't cost effective. UPS, Fedex, etc. charge you monthly fees for their services. They just weren't used enough to keep paying those fees.

Thank you, llamabeast!

We can do this. We need the community to help. The AARs are a great ides and we are in the process of a site redesign that will encompass alot of this. In the meantime, I will have Annette set up a thread to post anything that you (the community) think will help us tell the Dominions 3 story better.

Would love to, sector24! I'll buy the second round. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image.../beerglass.gif PM me, when you can.

Your welcome. Thanks for 'listening'.

We wouldn't dream of doing this, Velusion. We do listen and consider your ideas. And when someone brings something up like this, it sometimes reminds us to revisit things. We are always looking for ways to be better at what we do and this whole internet and gaming is a constantly changing animal that requires constant attention. Your ideas are always welcome at Shrapnel Games.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Scott,

You seemed to be asking if anyone had not bought the game because it was not digital download. I may be the closest you will get.

Living in Kenya, our mail service can be unreliable. As such, I had the game shipped to my parents in Canada and then picked it up when I visited on vacation. If I was not sure about the game, I would not have bothered. However, I had played the first two, checked out the demo and figured it was worth the money.

Obviously, I am a weird and tiny bit of the market, but some folks really don’t like, or can’t use, the mail. Tim’s points look pretty good and address the rest of the market.

Another point you asked about, is $55 impulse buy money for anyone? Well, yes, it is. Look at the credit card problems lots of folks have, people do some odd things with their cash. Many people see that amount in the impulse range. The other group to look at is the professionals. Without trying to sound like a rich prat, I can say that $55 is not a big deal for me anymore. If I want to take my wife to dinner, I will drop at least that much and not blink. A trip out for the weekend will burn at least that much gas, but I don’t factor it in my decision making. A night at a bar, I shudder to think how much that would cost these days if I got drunk. $55 used to be a lot for me, but all those years in university paid off.

In other words, you might want to stretch your ideas on the impulse buy idea. Computer games are entertainment, which is pretty much about satisfying impulses and emotions.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

It'd be pretty cool to set up a MP game specifically that everyone signed up to post AARs to. Perpetuality had a smattering of this, and a couple players regularly post short in character reports but it'd be cool to have everyone commit to doing it the whole way through then maybe do a little editing, splicing, and narration to put it all together into a overall story. I see this often enough, it shouldn't be too hard to fill up a game like this.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Yeah, resurrect the old Dom II Yarnspinners (I think that was the name) games!

I couldn't write for them, but I loved reading them.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Yarnspinner II was a blast, but wow, it's hard to keep up the writing! Alas, most of the prolific authors from those games did not move on to Dominions 3.

You've seen that some people do post/email in character (Pasha's games are prone to it, and I see you are in the next one). Every so often, someone tries to get a role-playing-heavy game going, but so far it hasn't taken off in Dom 3.

I wonder if Baalz meant to post his comment in another thread?

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Ahh, you finally got me!

I was waiting till now for a digital download option. After reading this thread ...

(and playing along the demo for a while, third tier by the way, first and second attempt I went for graphics over gameplay, to no avail http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )

... finally I succumb! I ordered per mail http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif, ugh!

Regards
Mhttp://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.giftomouse

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Excatly! When you get hooked on game, you have to be able to buy, download, register and play the full version instantly. Nothing sexy about searching hours for a shop, paying overprice and then having to wait several weeks for it to arrive http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Last game I bought on impulse was Mount & Blade, which is a small indie game developer in Turkey (IIRC). Game is digital distribution only (they use the esellerate.net webshop).

As for copy-protection, I understand Dom3 uses a similar scheme as Stars! did: The game might seem to accept homemade serials, but into the game strange random "accidents" start to happen (planets rebel, whole fleets disappear etc.) in the end ruining the game for the pirate http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif.

So while someone could easily make a serial-generator which *seems* to work, the only way you will know for sure is to play 100+ games and see if anything unsual happens. NO hacker is willing to spend that much time checking! Top that off with regular gameupdates (where the protection scheme is secretly slighty altered), and noone will bother.

This strong protection system also makes the whole fear of making a PDF manual a moot point. What good is the manual if you can't play the game because you can't get a valid serial http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Alas, at least as far as Dom3 goes, ShrapnelGames is in the perfect position to offer it as download+manual option. Actually it's something that Illwinter could do themselves if they hadn't signed up with ShrapnelGames to handle their distribution.

I sometimes get the feeling that distributors forget they work for and get paid by the developers and as such have a responsibility to promote and make available their product in the best way possible. It's the same bond which exists between music artist and the record labels, and many artists are currently realizing that they no longer live at the mercy of their labels - it's the other way around http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

I have mixed feelings about the whole "impulse buy" thing. I was exposed to Dominions via a Usenet thread about Master of Magic where a poster (probably Gandalf Parker) recommended Dominions 2 as a worthy successor. I downloaded the demo, read the manual, thought it was interesting, started the demo, and ran into a bug. (When I Alt-Tabbed out to look at the demo manual again, I came back and couldn't see any commander icons. I didn't realize it was caused by Alt-Tab, so I thought Dominions 2 just wouldn't run on my system.) I quit.

A couple of years later, I ran across Dominions 3 again. I don't remember why, but I tried again and this time this demo worked for me. I really liked the game. I hesitated when I saw that the game was only available through mail-order, because there's always the danger with an impulse purchase that, if you have to wait a couple of weeks to get it, the impulse will have waned by the time you receive it and you won't get any enjoyment out of it at all. Still, I had the demo and could play that in the meantime, so ultimately I decided to buy the game. In my case I think I definitely would not have bought the game if the demo had not been available electronically, but the demo did its job and sold me despite the mail-order wait.

I don't know if that's useful data, but there it is. I suspect Shrapnel is choosing a pretty good middle ground, from a business perspective.

-Max

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Innocence, suffice it to say that this issue has been discussed enough times already. You don't actually have any statistical evidence to back your claims up and you do not know all the details on how this goes with Dominions 3. Tim Brooks has already given several answers that address the issue and why things are done the way they are and I for one do not see any holes in his logic.

The Dominions 3 manual is not and is never going to be available in a downloadable PDF format nor is the game going to be distributed in digital download format. End of story.

The thing is that demos are precisely for checking out whether one likes a game and if a demo is good, usually the game is worth waiting for even if it takes a week or two.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

The hole in part of the logic is the lack of trust in the Dom3 copy protection, which is excellent. And when you don't have to worry about piracy, the rest of the why-not-to arguments are invalid, since they ultimately build on the first dogma that releasing the manual in digital form will make piracy ruin this game (which might be true if it wasn't for the protection build in by Illwinter).
And "640Kb of RAM is enough for everyone" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I've read those statements before, repeating them wont make them any more right.

But I agree that trying to argue with logic here seems futile - it probably is, as you say, "end of story" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. Clearly, if other small/one man companies do this successfully it's obvious that this will never work for ShrapnelGames [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon02.gif[/img]

Even in our small "group", half the people interrested say they "wont buy it right now" (which pretty much means they'll never get their act together and order it) because of how difficult the game is to come by. And if your friends wont play the game, there goes the chance for a nice relaxed multiplayer experience, meaning you'll feel tempted to skip the game yourself. I recon the picture is much the same in the rest of the world.

For what it's worth though, yes I'll likely end up biting the bullet and buy the game on mail-order just like most people here - but under protest, futile as it may be [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/VikingHelm.gif[/img]

On an ironic sidenote: Illwinter is a Swedish Development team. "Sweden" as in "Europe", "Sweden" as in "two hours of ferry transport from where I live" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

I'd be very interested to know what data you base this conclusion on, that piracy isn't an issue for Dominions3 because the copy protection is so good. I'm sympathetic to the anti-copy protection camp (my favorite e-book publisher is Baen because they make e-books totally hassle-free, to the point of simply distributing books as .html files in a .zip) but I'm also conscious that whether this is a smart business decision depends very much upon your product and market. What makes you think the built-in copy protection is a better deterrent than the lack of a manual?

-Max

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Dom3 copy protection is good enough only because it is not popular game, so not huge interest in hacker community.

Most bad selling games are due to well... bad design, not piracy. And most anti-piracy things hit people that buy the game, not hackers. I think that most anti-piracy things [except for normal cdkey] decrease sales.

Dominions targets rather small community. Most people that try it get addicted and buy it. There are of course pirated copies of dom3, but mostly used by people instead of demo or by those that have problems buying it. And digital distribution could help those people. But there may be not enough of them to put all that into motion.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

First of all, the lack of a manual can be overcome by dedication. The tutorial is in the demo, lots of info on forums and wikis, and the in-game info is very good. I was up playing the demo in a few days/tried, and while there are some limitations, I doubt the full game is very different. The only way to *really* learn a game is, after all, by playing it. Once that's done, you don't really need the manual.

The brilliance of the Dom3 copy-protection is that it gives false positives - everything seems ok but really isn't. You might be in the middel of an exciting game, one you have invested countless of hours into, and suddently things start to go wrong. Small at first, then more and more severe, until your game is ruined and all your time is in effect wasted. It's like watching an exciting movie and then discover the last 10 minutes are missing (no actually it's much worse than that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif).

In essense, *time* is the issue. Time wasted for the player, and time wasted for the hacker programming serial-generatores, which are close to impossible to get right, since the checks are many, spread out through the game, and don't reveal themselves until it's too late.

While a hacker might want to spend a few hours writing a serial-generator, there's no way in Ermor neither he nor anyone else will be willing to spend 100+ hours testing if every serial provided will pass every check, fully knowing that even if they by chance find a working one they'll be in trouble come the next patch http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

And if you simply don't patch you can wave goodbye to multiplayer - which after all is where these games really shine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

So the equation is like this: Would you rather spend $50 one time to get a fully working, guaranteed problem-free gaming experience (not to mention a clean conscience), or would you rather try the freeride, filled with frustrating experinces like abandoned games and wasted precious sparetime (and knowing you haven't contributed a dime to make this rare genre live on)? I believe the answer is obvious http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Like I said all this isn't new - it's the way they did it with Stars! (shareware) and it was very successfull in that department too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

You're still claiming things without a single shred of evidence. Dominions 3 is not Stars!, so you can throw that comparison right out the window. There are some similarities, but that is all they are.

This discussion is also moving to territory where it might as well soon be shut down because it's not going to be productive in any way if things continue in the same vein.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

I already have bought the game, but would have bought it digitally if that was possible. Maybe digital distribution is not right for Dom3 at the moment, as suggested - but it is the 'way of the future'. Maybe Dom4?

As for piracy of PC games, read:
http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com...?postid=303512
Sums it up nicely, I think.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

They both use a similar and very effective copy protection scheme. If that's not a similarity then I don't know what it takes. Want proof of effectiveness, go search for other discussions on the Stars! copy protection.
Excuse me, but do you own this forum? You seem very eager to shut down this discussion on the general principle that you find it tedious http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I've stated a new important issue about this case, and yes, you're probably right that it wont change their descision, but please let other people have their say before you cry out, demanding the discussion be shut down http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Anyway, I'll leave it at that for now, so you'll get it your way http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Edi is a hard man, and these forums need discipline, something their mother never gave them. >.>


But seriously, I think that his point ultimately is that it doesn't matter what semi or totally vaid points you bring up - the distribution method of the game will not change because of your arguments.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

That was great I have not laughed so hard in a long time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

The point apparently sailed right over your head. Similar != same. Your argument assumes that the copy protection for both Stars! and Dominions 3 is the same, when it is only similar, NOT the same. So your argument does not apply directly, yet you're still advancing it as if it did. This is what I and several other people have been trying to explain to you for the past several posts.

I'll take your word for it that the Stars! copy protection is as effective as you say. It doesn't matter a jot, because it is simply not relevant for this discussion.

No, I don't own the forum, Shrapnel Games does. The reason I was contemplating shutting this discussion down because it's turning out to be a rehash of an issue that has been discussed and resolved already in the past. And not just once, if my memory serves me correctly.

The problem with what you have been saying is not that there is something new, but that there is not and these considerations have already been taken into account and factored into the decision about how to distribute Dominions 3. That's why the decision is not going to change. I believe Tim Brooks also explained this in prior posts.

The thing is that the people on the forums do not have access to all the information that goes into making these decisions. I'm not an employee of Shrapnel or Illwinter, but even so I have a little bit more access than the average forum user due to being a forum moderator and the bug list manager. I have a slightly better picture due to that privileged information, though nowhere near complete. But with the information I do have, taken together with what Tim has said in the past, I feel I can safely say the Shrapnel argument is persuasive.

The problem with this approach is of course that since I cannot divulge what has not been said in public, I can only offer you my word on this issue. Whether you choose to trust that is up to you. I hope that I have generally been forthright enough that my word is sufficient for most people here.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

I have resolved my problems with the game distribution. I think it should stay as it is. After all, why bother with a slight delay in receiving a game that you will probably play for 2-3 years. The delay in receiving it is immaterial, and helps the developers weed out piracy.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

There are also two possible incentives.

A) Shrapnel has made a request for AARs to all of their games. So it might serve a larger purpose if they mention it in a publicity post someplace.

B) I have always said that it would sell. A person can create a free CafePress shop, upload an AAR, publish it to a book, and sell it online. Personally, I would love to see one laid out with the story on the left-side pages, and the actual game steps on the right-hand pages. It could be entertaining to read, help sell the game, and be a tutorial all in one.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

I just finished reading the whole thread and I feel compelled to say that on the whole you folks did a great job of discussing the issue in a calm and respectful way.

Nice jobs of stating things in a "You're crazy!" manner rather than in an "You're stupid!" way if you know what I mean. I know this issue has flamed out a couple of times before due to the latter way of speaking ones mind.

Tim Brooks, you did an amazing job explaining your position, nice work.

My opinion? I think there has gotta be a way in which digital distribution can out-perform mail only and still keep an effective anti-piracy measure possible. What way that is though... (?)

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Actually, both of your statements are false. Score another one for pirates offering better service.

Which, incidentally, is why I really don't get the distributor guy's arguments about having to have DRM to stop pirates if they were to do digital distribution. That's just intentionally making the legitimate version worse than the pirated version.


(And before you start whining about how I'm a pirate, I did buy my copy. And will never be buying anything from Shrapnel via mail again. Package was moist when it arrived. One corner was torn off. Tape all over to patch up lesser damage.)

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

If you really want to nitpick, go right ahead. Let me amend that:

The Dominions 3 manual is not and is never going to be available in a downloadable PDF format nor is the game going to be distributed in digital download format via legitimate channels. End of story.

Happy?

As far as pirates offering better service? Bull****. They have taken what others have done and are conveniently handing it out to anyone who wants it for free while the people whose work they are exploiting do not get paid for their efforts, at least as far as those copies are concerned.

You have an interesting definition of better service, given the implications in a niche market like the one that Dominions 3 belongs to. Those implications might not always be realized in full, but pretending there is no impact is ignoring reality.

With regard to the condition of your packaging, contact Shrapnel support. They handle things like that as well. First I've heard of such problems.

Re: Why Not Digitial Distribution?
 

Why are you blaming Shrapnel for a failure by the parcel delivery service?