Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

That was one of the symptoms of the old bug AFAIK. I think I'll have to test it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif Blah.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

First, The Scale Bug (TSB) also appears after restarting Dominions and creating a new game. It isn't restricted to only appearing after creating/playing multiple games in one sitting. TSB brings your scales down, and they usually stay down until the bug disappears.

Second, TSB disappears after all neighbouring provinces are under your dominion. After that point, your scales will increase the normal way, which can be slow. However, scales can go down if you ended the turn without your dominion in all neighbouring provinces. If you open your turn, see that scales went down, and have dominion in all neighbours, it's probably due to dominion spreading to the last province that turn.

Temperature varies with seasons. A province can go from neutral to Heat 3 in one turn (but that only happened once in my tests), so even your capital's temperature may vary. I don't if friendly dominion weakens the effect of seasons, but my tests were often made with rather low dominion in the capital. If Cold scale disappears in early game, it may be due to random chance. If Heat scale disappears, it's probably due to TSB.

TSB can affect Growth and Luck. I think the scale drain happens in order, so first you lose your Order, Then Production, etc etc. When I had just Growth, Luck and Magic, I first lost some Growth, then all; then some Luck.

I think dominion can increase the scales even when the capital is still affected by TSB. However, the chance of increase isn't that good, so it might take several (4-5 wasn't rare) turns after TSB is negated before you're back to full scales.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

If thats the way that it works Endoperez then it sounds like a deliberate feature. Whether or not it is a feature that imbalances things, I don't know.
- It might now balance dominion with the other pretender points, or it may be unfairly forcing everyone to take high dominion.
- Water nations on maps like Cradle will be hit hit the hardets, but hopefully land nations will now respect a water nations right to have the land provinces surrounding their capital.
- This will now make stealthy priests more valuable, as they can now lower the enemies dominion in a province beside the enemies captial, and ruin the enemies scales. (But id this is a bug and not a "feature", this should be considered an exploit )
- This will prevent order rushes at the beginning of the game, where with a high income, production, and by buying mercenaries you can quickly expand. This may encourage people to take awake pretenders, with blesses, but bad scales even more.

Mostly I just want to khow how the bug behaves, so i can learn how to control it, and adjust my strategies.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

You don't need to own the province neighbors. You need your dominion in the province neighbors.

Also, if this is by design, then I think all capitols should start with neutral scales in turn 1.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

Also if it's by design it really should, thematically speaking , affect all scales, good and bad, equally.

Especially when not all the bad scales are bad for all nations. Temperature scales are the obvious ones, but if Pans can start spawning Maeneads in high Turmoil at once and their enemy can't afford troops since he lost his Order, for example.

And why not Luck and Magic? Sounds like somethings being checked from the top of the list. Order is most likely to be affected and Magic the least?

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

I know I am never playing with Dominion under nine anymore. I hate new 'feature'. It removes many builds, it hurts low/high temperature nations...

Dominion already propagated. Neighbor province dominion already affected _dominion_ in capital. Why should scales be affected too?

I can see for temperature, but if my people in border province strongly believe in my Pretender's ideals, like discipline and hard work, why should they care that Pangaeans across border spend their time partying? It's one thing being penalized for losing dominion battle in your own lands. It's another for scales to spread across borders no matter what.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

The scale spread bug is fixed.

It was an entirely new bug introduced with the 3.14 feature of scale spreading dominions (similar to heat/cold spreading dominions).

We have introduced the possibility to have your order/turmoil, death/growth spread outside your dominion just like the niefel/abysian dominions spread cold/heat. IIRC no nation has these features yet, but it might be possible to mod already.

Possible candidates are Pangaea turmoil and Ermor death.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

Sweet. I assume it will be available with the next patch?

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

I would like to see patch released that week even if it had only that thing fixed.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

> I would like to see patch released that week even if it had only that thing fixed.

Seconded! This 'feature' is destroying me in the games I started with my standard dominion of five.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

Thanks Kristoffer. I wasn't expecting you guys to fix this bug that fast. Please release the patch for this as soon as possible.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

Thirded! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

Naah, I'd rather that some more progress happened before the patch comes out. There's been lots of bug-delving after this thread was started, annoyingly so. I've had to test more boring things this week than in more than a year! Besides, there's all kind of nifty developments coming around...


14th feb
* New militia events (mostly for uw nations).
* Old militia event made rare.
11th feb
* Scale spread bug fixed.
9th feb
* Late abysia slayercult.
* Late abysia hero.
* Late abysia anathemants altered.
* Warbred.


To borrow Dwarf Fortress terminology, I'd like to see "Abysia Arc", "Army Event Arc" and "Stealth Re-evaluation Arc" properly finished before any new patch comes our way. Also, bugfixes.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

I really think this scales bug needs an emergency patch. It's really bad for nations that depends on their scales in the very beginning, like MA Ulm.

Jazzepi

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

Check out the latest, rather surprising developments in the latest page of the bug discussion thread. MA Ulm might be better off by giving Illwinter time to finish what they've started...

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

In 'Alexander' I chose order and growth scales. On turn 4 they vanished. On turn 5 I had the 'major plague' event. Now my capital's population is 13k, my temperature scales are gone... Not much of a point staying in the game.

I think that we need patch 3.15 NOW. I do not care about all the goodies that Ulm may be getting. Games are being ruined - games in which we have invested quite a bit of time.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

I'm in the same game and still recovering from the 3 simultaneous unrest events I got on the second turn when all my order disappeared.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

> On turn 5 I had the 'major plague' event.

Thats harsh http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I made the rare unrestricted plague event limited to turn 10+
The death 1 rare one 5+
The death 3 common one no turn limit

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

But isn't that the drawback of Order/Misfortune? I mean thats the risks of taking it... chance of major problems.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

I have NEVER seen the major plague (half population dies) happen with a growth dominion before 3.14. In the few weeks since the patch, I have had it happen in two of the three games I am in, both times in my capitals. Yes, order/growth/misfortune used to be a gamble, but a smart one.

Now, it is suicide. Turn two, goodbye order. Turn three, farewell growth. Misfortune's there to stay, of course. And that's with dominion 7.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

The rare plague is not affected by scale restricitons in any way. It is just rare, thus more common with misfortune and turmoil. It can happen in growth. But the other two plague events need death 1 or 3.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

Yea but when your order vanishes you have a much higher chance of getting the really bad events.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

Sure, but this is a bug and should be fixed in the next patch.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

Okaaaay.....

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

Communication breakdown...

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

> The rare plague is not affected by scale restricitons in any way. It is just rare, thus more common with
> misfortune and turmoil. It can happen in growth. But the other two plague events need death 1 or 3.

This is good to know. I guess that I am seeing it much more often because I have never lacked order in so many of my provinces before. And certainly not in my capital... I guess I was lucky enough to never get hit by the old scale bug.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

Which is whole point! We want new patch released as soon as possible, without Ulm Arc, Whatever Arc, and without time spent on testing new content.

Because we are order/misfortune gamblers, or play cold races in games THAT ARE GOING ON.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

JK is the patcher. And he is not home sick as I am. So my testing and adding of content has no bearing on the release of the patch.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

Thanks for all the new content being added!! If I ever have the time and funds to start creating a TBS game I would send a job offer your direction.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

Wow. MA Ulm being strengthened? Isn't this one of the signs of the Apocalypse?!

In case it is not clear, I'm one of those who think that if MA Ulm got every single unit from both non-undead themes in Dom2, buildable everywhere, it would not be too strong.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

MA now have the Iron Angel to demonstrate to men that strength comes from yourself and from the steel you wield, not from faith nor magic.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

Well, I've come to one inevitable conclusion, patch 3.14 broke the game. I don't run any mods, but ever since patching to 3.14 every single SP game I've started has had the bug. It doesn't matter the map (random or premade), age, number of neighboring provinces, etc. I loose my positive scales, which are positively part of my playstyle.

In this light, it is necessary to go back the previous patch, though I'm in some MP games which have already patched. I just installed the game on a new PC as well, and don't have any of the previous patches saved. Whats my best course of action?

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

Hrmf. It's all-but ruined one MP game for me. I took Order-3, Prod-3, and Growth-3. It's the Aran map, and I ended up on both of those long peninsulas, with Atlantis surrounding me.

We're in late-game now, and 3/4 of my provinces have at best 1 or 2 in any of those scales, even though I have at least 4 candles in each province.

It's been that way ever since we patched, but I couldn't figure out why. Now I guess I know.

*shrug* There's one game I've been playing for *SIX MONTHS* largely down the crapper. Grand.

Would have been dead already, I think, except my largest and most dangerous neighbour has been away on a trip for a while and keeps staling...; )

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

My new game turn 4.. drop in income, no order scale no more..

I need cash...

Two Suggestions for a fix:
 

Kris

I suspect you are using a nearest neighbor discrete averaging algorythmn to calculate new diminion.

However, the idea of dominion was the propagation of a positive dominion - which will significantly run counter to an averaging algorythmn.

I really believe that you should consider a positive dominion propagation model rather than an averaging one.
However, I believe there is a relatively easy tweak that would correct the issue.

Only consider nearest neighbors with a *negative* aka enemy dominion, when averaging on a positive dominion. This *handles* starting positions, as none of your surrounding positions will have a dominion for an initial period.

Now there is one more suggestion:
Prior to game setup, based on scale values and dominion, allow dominion to propagate throughout the map for something like 100 turns.. prior to turn 1.

This would allow the dominions to reach equilibrium - and would make scales propagate realistically throughout the map.

Chris

Re: Two Suggestions for a fix:
 

It would also eliminate Mictlan, removing one source of evil from the world!

Re: Two Suggestions for a fix:
 

Nay, for I was only speaking of scale propagation.
I would use a formula something like:

Re: Two Suggestions for a fix:
 

I concur with the invisible formula, for it is beautiful in it's simplicity http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Two Suggestions for a fix:
 

Are you suggesting a fix for the bug, or a new feature? Because the bug has been fixed already, and the fix will appear with the next patch.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

Wow ! And I thought Iron Angels was a new poptype. Some kind of biker gang.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

It's a summons.

Re: Scales bugs in Dom3.14
 

-shakes head sadly-

No-one likes a summons. It's worse than jury duty.