Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Priest smiths are going to get some modifications in the next patch. Personally, I wish the master smith had a 15% or 20random instead of 10%.

The reason why the priest smith has no randoms is that they are basically washouts or failures who are trying to get more importance by latching on to the Order of the Iron Faith. That's the interpretation I make from the various descriptions anyway.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

One question I'm wondering about is whether Bane of Heresy (the aoe effect from Black Halberds) should be "strength of wielder not added"? Because 15 AP damage without strength added is not going to cause a whole lot of fatigue to anything with even half decent armor. Upping the stun damage to 20 AP would make it more useful but still not overkill. Of course, since there are three guardians per square and if all three hit the same enemy square, it adds up fast.

Opinions?

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

I just did a test of 8 Black Halberds against 9 W9F9 jaguars. The halberds won easily. They seem pretty effective, some of the jaguars were knocked out almost immediately.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

As the fatigue increases the targets will lose attack and defense and will get the occasional armour piercing hit though. So the halberds will dish out considerable more normal damage vs sacreds than they did before, and take less themselves, as well as possibly eventually knock them unconscious.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Ah, that and llamabeast's test results provide a quite satisfactory answer. I tossed an off the cuff estimate without actually doing any real number crunching, so I was not at all sure if I was on the right track or not. And as it turns out, I wasn't. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

What about the results of the 'halt heretic' ability itself ? Sacreds are known for unusually high morale, blessing adds +2 morale (I think), and N9 bless causes berserk, which is likely to negate the awe effect.

I'm deffinitely NOT complaining that the halberds work well. But Ulm is supposed to be anti-supernatural nation, right ? So far, they have tools for:

- sacreds (black halberd, halt heretic)
- magic beings (Iron Angel - high research and path requirements)
- undead ? Nothing
- Demons ? Nothing

I appreciate that Ulm finally has unique tools that do their job well... but there's much more to supernatural than sacreds. Sacreds are a good start ;-).

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

undead/demons nothing? They have level 2 priests now. That is a great improvement. You do not see many demons in the MA.

I would not mind seeing the level 2 priests recruitable at all castles though. Arcos. has its level 2 priestesses that can heal available at all castles, and it is clearly a much stronger mp nation than Ulm even with the additions. If arcos does not have to choose between its astrologers and priestesses, I am not sure why Ulm has to choose among lesser commanders.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

> I just did a test of 8 Black Halberds against 9 W9F9 jaguars. The halberds won
> easily. They seem pretty effective, some of the jaguars were knocked out
> almost immediately.

I'm extremely impressed. I cannot understand it, though. How did the
halberdiers even manage to hit the jaguars? Does the halberd get a to hit
bonus as well? Or is it a 'trigger everytime' area of effect ability? If
that's the case, I still welcome the boost to Ulm, but I have to say, I do
not like it from a lore perspective. I wave my magic halberd, heroically
attacking empty air, and the enemy elite are impressed. Pff...

Come on, give us Ulmish that we can be PROUD being. *cough* Ulm Reborn *cough*

> Black Lord vs. Lord Guardian for early game thug.(All this cheap forging needs
> to be put on SOMETHING, right, sinces its a big part of Ulm you'd prolly want
> to get them into action before powerful summons are available.)

At the onset, Black Lord all the way. Being mounted, he does not care about the
huge encumberance of most earth items. Later on, there will be a place for
Lord Guardians, maybe.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Tuidjy, Bane of Heresy is 15 ap nostr aoe 1 stun damage autoeffect that hits the target square regardless of whether the actual halberd blow lands on target. If you have three halberds hitting the same square simultaneously, each jaguar warrior in that square takes 3x 15 ap stun and the next round it's a whole different ballgame when they start getting criticals due to fatigue lowering their defense.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Sombre: I recruit a Preacher for each army I put into the field. I find it very useful. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I don't get more than 1, though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

I'm loving these test results!

Die Heretics, Die!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/stupid.gif

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Yeah, that's what I said "I wave my halberd in the air, draining strength and
skill out of the enemy"... Magic. Of the worst kind. Now we know why Ulm fell.

Call the inquisitors!

On a more serious note, please rework the description. I do not have the game
here, but I believe it said something about the guardians skill and resolve. It
should speak of the weapon's properties.

But the ability itself is damn nice.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

> It should speak of the weapon's properties.

It does, unless I'm mistaken.

It is not a magic halberd as much as a sacred halberd created by the Priest Smiths. Fatigue is a result from the clash of divine powers.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

I just checked the description, Tuidjy.

Furthermore, the Black Priests and Priest Smiths and other mentions of the Iron Cult make references to magic outside religion being heresy and the black halberds being imbued with divine power (in the same sense that Iron Darts and Iron Blizzard are Earth/Holy mixed path spells). So it is not as contradictory as you remember it being.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

The more I hear, the more I like it. I looked at the new changes late one night,
and decided that I was not nearly enough. It seems I was quite off. Now, if
Ulm could only get some kind of decently trained soldiers. It is my recollection
that most if not all of the infantry have 10s in their combat stats.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Most of them do, yes. It's because they are regular soldiers, just very well equipped. The Guardians and the Black Knights are the only ones who have above 10 stats. Guardian has attack 12, defense 10 base and Black Knight is, well, Black Knight. The Black Plate Infantry units got morale boosted from 10 to 11 comapred to 10 for the basic Ulm infantry and the pikemen are 11 and 12 for normal and Black Plate respectively. The Full Plate of Ulm getting defense penalty slashed from -5 to -3 is also a good thing.

Combined with Black Priests able to cast Sermon of Courage, all of that put together is not insignificant at all compared to what Ulm used to be like. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

What really bothers me about Ulm (among many other things) is that they have the
equipment, they just do not know how to use it.

1. Give the arbalest guys a pavise (tower shield) to duck behind, and they will
become the terror of the battlefield.

2. Have some of the infantry wear the arbalesters' cuiraces, give them the
knights' kite shields, the pikemen's half helmets, and a simple shortsword.
Can you say awesome medium infantry?

3. As for the black knights, have them go on a quest to find their daddy's
broadsword, and to help them look, give them a half helmet.

Now, if the damn smiths would get off their asses and actually apply their
supposed skill on lightening the above MUNDANE equipment, THEN would Ulm have
a claim to 'excellent equipment'.

Also, I wish they would get a MASS reinvigoration spell based on Earth magic.
Why isn't there one? After all Earth=reinvigoration since the days of Antaios.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

I'll reiterate my previous post. Before you speculate - do some trials. I've tried three games with the current patch. I think Ulm is now one of the strongest LA nations.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

He's primarily talking about MA Ulm though.

LA Ulm always had some stuff going for it and got quite a boost with the improvements to the iron faith and ghoul guardians (which are now pretty hot units).

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

no one on this thread was talking about LA Ulm. We are all talking about MA Ulm.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

No offense, but at what point do you look at someone's request and think 'edacious and insatiable'?

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

I always thought that edacious was about food, and insatiable about sex. :-)
Hell, my gut feeling is that MA Ulm is still weak, I would like them to really
be a viable nation. Until I play a MA game that they're in, I will not be able
to speak from experience. Every halfway decent player can trounce the AI, even
on impossible.

The new guardians have covered one of Ulm's vulnerabilities. I feel they have a
few more left but what the Hell, I am shutting up until I try them, or at least
fight them in MP.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Ulm may not be viable for you or Zeldor, but perfectly fine for people who like unusual nations, experimentation, and some challenge.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

These changes make Ulm a much more interesting nation at any rate.

I don't think anyone has comment on the changes to the black plate. No one, will poitn and laugh anymore at how clumsy the black plate soldiers look as they try to make it from one side of the battlefield to the other without collapsing from exhastion. The black plate is now something to be feared.


Jotunheim in particular will really fear those black halbreds, and the black halbreds will be able stop short pythium Angels, and other sacred SCs. They will be quite a force.

Halt scared sounds cool, but I don't think it will be that effective.

Its nice to give ulm a choice of mages. Only the one kind mind ulm kind of boring.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Actually, there are a couple of things where I agree with Tuidjy, namely about the medium infantry. MA Ulm currently has essentially 10 varieties of same heavy infantry and only one or two of them are ever used (3 or 4, if you count black plate and chain mail of same type as separate ones).

A couple of varieties of plate cuirass medium infantry with short swords/axe/hammer/hatchet/morning star and kite shield or normal shield and half helmet or iron cap for helmet and perhaps mapmove 2 wouldn't be bad. Of the weapons, hatchet and short sword would be the most appropriate, axe is the most problematic due to both attack and defense penalty.

That would give MA Ulm some flexibility, though there is the danger of the medium infantry being used as the main troops due to greater movement capacity. On the other hand, if the medium infantry were to use some two-handed weapon like battle axe, halberd, bardiche, claymore or greatsword, they would not be such an obvious choice all around as the lack of shield and lower overall protection would really start to hurt them against archers and especially crossbowmen. Sure, they'd hit hard, but their survivability would go down a lot and their defense woul still stay in the average range instead of shooting up to 14-16 range.

The heavy infantry still suffer from relatively low defense values and for the black plate infantry, knights and guardians, the helmet could be changed to black steel helmet to complement the full plate of Ulm. That would increase def by 1 point, which is not an unreasonable boost at all, they'll still get hit all the time.

Another thing I'd really like to see is the master smiths get their random chance upped to 15% or 20%, because they still won't get them too often. Maybe jack up the price by 10 to count for that.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

I'm quite satisfied with the infantry as it is. Everyone have their niches more or less depending on what nation you are currently fighting.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Probably. My perspective is NOT from multiplayer, so I defer to the judgment of more experienced people in that regard. The black steel helmets would be thematically cool, though.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

I cannot agree with you more. Black steel helmets should be there.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Black steel Helmets sound like a no-brainer. Ulm is all about black steel, right ? Why do they use those crappy regular -1 def full helmets ?

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

I agree with these latest statements.

Though I now beleive that black plate infantry is now quite a good unit, ulm still should have medium infantry with map move 2.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Ok, I must be missing something. I do not like Tuidjy's way of lobbying for even more Ulm goodies by disparaging what they just received, but I do not understand why the rest of you are looking for ways of preventing Ulm's troops from shining.

> they would not be such an obvious choice all around

> would really start to hurt them against archers and especially crossbowmen.

> their survivability would go down a lot and their defense woul still stay in the average range

Ulm have forsaken magic. They worship physical strength and masterfully crafted equipment. Why on earth should they not have really good, properly equipped troops?

We are not talking about giving them some out of this world items. We are not even talking about letting them have some infantry with 11s in their stats, although I would not be surprised if Ulm is the only nation that does not have build anywhere veteran infantry.

Tuidjy was just mixing and minimaxing existing equipment. How [censored] dumb are the Ulmish? I guess they hold meetings in which they try to maximize their weaknesses. Right in between 'most cumbersome armor' and 'weakest will' contest, they spend some time choosing weapons that best fail to synegize with their armor.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Actually, the price for dumbest choice of equipment would go for Agarthans. Poor attack and defense, above-average hp and strength, size 3 or bigger makes swarming harder. Clearly high-precision or high-damage weapons are needed, or weapon with multiple attacks. Good shields combined with high hp and units spread over larger area would help a lot against archers. So what's their weapon of choice? Spear and buckler. Surely their giant brethren have something nice, like Great Clubs or Battleaxes? Nope, spears and bucklers. What about their elites? Glaives, for that wonderful malus to both attack and defense. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

I did some minmaxing of my own, which is why I do not advocate giving them too well equipped mapmove 2 medium infantry. Plate Cuirass, half helmet and shield is going to be just a couple of prot points less than the chainmail infantry. AND will have better defense AND better mapmove. So which ones were you building again when the chainmail infantry is obsolete?

Better mapmove gives far more tactical and strategic flexibility, which will in the end be so much more important than the higher protection of black plate infantry that the only units anyone will ever build are the medium infantry if they are available.

You can see the same thing in action with EA Ulm, the only actual units worth building with that nation are warrior maidens, steel maidens and shield maidens with iron warriors for heavy hitting built near the front. The other normal warrior units simply suck that much the way they currently are. That is why if you want to keep the MA Ulm heavy units viable, shields are out for medium infantry. Not because it is perfectly logical, but to prevent the nation thematics from being irretrievably broken.

I would not mind black plate infantry having +1 str, att & def compared to the regular infantry, however.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Keep MA Ulm slow. We don't need no stinking "medium" infantry! We are ULM!

Let them keep their 2 map move, "medium" infantry is like saying you are only "sort of" an Ulmish warrior.

Hehe, no seriously, I like variation in the races, with different strengths and weaknesses. One of MA Ulm's major weaknesses is being slow. I think it should stay like that.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Black Knights and Sappers have mapmove 2, that whould be all you need =).

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

True. Besides that, sappers have a use as mobile crossbow units, but they are expensive. Compared to the other Ulm units anyway, but should not be an issue.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

I'm confused. Ulmish infantry already have hp 12 and str 11, yet I've seen people talking about giving them str 11 in a couple of places.

I think str 12 for black plate guys would be over the top. They aren't supposed to be elite and str 12 is pretty elite by human soldier standards.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

There's regular human and there's Ulm. Stronger and more durable, suck at resisting magic. As far as the str goes, I'm fine with it. Though 12 would not be out of line, it'd just be +1 to normal Ulm strength but the later eras are supposedly softer than their barbarian past. Hell, the EA Ulm women have str 11 and warriors 12, with the elites 13.

Black Knights have str 13, no reason why Guardians should not as well. Black plate infantry should probably stay at str 11. Even getting the full helmet swapped for blacksteel helmet would be an immediate +1 def.

The thing is that people often forget the str when talking about combat stats, which are usually the same across the line.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

The crowd cheers as the armor contest comes to a close with a three-way tie, and the smiths grinning with their shiny lead medals.

Ulmish Mayor speaking to the gathered crowd, "And now it's time for a favorite amongst the lads, the annual 'Weakest Will' competition!"

The crowd cheers.

The mayor continues, "Alright, are the competitors ready? (he pauses) Ready, set, go!"

One contestant immediately belts out, "I give up!"

The mayor replies, "We have a winner!"

The crowd cheers.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Yeah. I'm pretty sure most people haven't even noticed Machakans have lower base encumberance than other humans, for example. Point of strength isn't as useful as one more attack or defence, though, in most cases.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Machakans also have a higher base mapmove, they are the only nation to have mapmove 3 normal human infantry. And with forestry to boot.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Some more thoughts on new Ulm...

1. I don't like the whole concept of Iron Darts and Iron Blizzard. Was the intention to make Ulm into something they oppose - an evocation-based nation ? I think Ulm should get spells which are more fitting. Buffs, summons, etc. Ulm already has hard-hitting ranged units - Arbalests. They may not be very efficient as archers, sadly, but they can hold their own in melee. Today 20 of my ulmish PD stopped the earthquake+troglodytes event. If you want to give Ulm ranged weapons, just make Arbalests reasonable investment. How about making arbalests pierce shields ? They are supposed to be Heavy crossbows !

2. Priest Smith is a bit too good. 9 out of 10 master smiths are strictly worse than a priest smith. I would switch their paths - make Priest Smith FFE instead of EEF . From thematic point of view, it could be said they're burning with faith or something equally corny. That would 1) make them older, giving Master Smiths an advantage 2) widen the difference between the both 3) Make each of them distinctive 4) Give Ulm slightly wider choice of magic.
As it is, MA Ulm is THE Iron Faith of Dom3. The Priests are significantly stronger in MA than MA.

3.bug: PD gets usual priest instead of black acolyte. Ulm can't even recruit a regular priest anymore.
-----------

Old stuff:

Ulm has a bad choice of weapons. It makes them distinctive, yes, but why would I recruit infantry with hammers ? Length 1 ? A lot of their attacks will get parried, and each such attack adds what, 9 fatigue ? What good is Heavy armour if you can't deal damage ? I can see the point of black plates for unshielded infantry, but I think shields on black plates is overkill. You're going to use those shields mostly against archers anyway. You sacrifice too much weapon power by equipping a tower shield.

Battleaxes and mauls (len 3) are nearly identical. I think one of them should go. Battleaxe is better because it doesn't have -1 to defence. But it also costs 2 res more. Ulm soldiers are so clumsy they (probably) are getting hit all the time anyway, so it's probably better to recruit mauls. If it was up to me, I would remove battleaxe Ulm infantry.

I think my complaints about Ulm weapons come from one source: in my opinion, weapons cost too few resources. Armour should cost less (to balance it), and weapons - more. That would make weapon choices more meaningful. I would consider hammers if they costed quite a bit less resources than morningstars, but as it is now, why bother ? You can usually get much better weapon for marginal increase in resources.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

1) Iron Darts and Iron Blizzard are the first steps towards Malediction and LA Ulm. They ARE steps away from what Ulm represents. However, they are on the exact same levels as Magma Bolts and Magma Eruption, which Master Smiths would use any way - so they don't actually do that much more.

2) Priest Smiths is capital-only, so the difference isn't that great. In addition, Priest Smiths will get a bit older in the next patch, whenever it comes. The problem, if there is one, was noted in the beta, but the patch was released without the alterations (to Priest Smith and some descriptions) to fix the scale bug mk 2.

Weapons:
- I regularly choose Battleaxes over Mauls. Every point helps, IMO, and units with heavy weapons or high strength aren't usually that accurate. Difference between 3 higher and 4 higher attack is 6%, or about one in 20 hits being a miss.
- I also regularly choose shielded troops over unshielded. Morningstars are good against enemy shields, and they're pretty good weapons any way. Hammers are very poor in Dominions because they can't deal enough damage to penetrate armor. AFAIK, real-life mauls weren't used as battlefield weapons, and real-life warhammers looked more like picks that punched through the armor. Maces and such had enough momentum to crush bones through armor (enough damage to deal damage through protection).

I'd like to see shields' protection values weakened a bit (perhaps -5 across the board), and damage of all "heavy" weapons increased a bit (3-4 points). 12 damage battleaxe + 11 strength against 14 prot +10 shield would be able to deal damage, but knights' 18+10 shield would still be quite safe.

Plate Armor was changed towards what Arralen had done in his mod, so perhaps instead of talking we should do competing "better armor balance" mods and stary lobbying. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Who said that Ulm opposes evocations?

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Ulm has a small number of small(tightly packed) and expensive units. This means that an area spell covers much larger percentage of their army than it would be the case for another nation(relying on higher number of units). This is further amplified that Ulm infantry moves very slowly on the battlefield. So not only enemy mages get more out of their area spells, but are also able to cast more of them before both armies clash.
Small number of units also makes them more vulnerable to single target spells.
Bottom line: Ulm would be vulnerable to magic even without explicit -1 to MR. I think the penalty is just an overkill.
-------------

There's something wrong about EA Ulm. Nowhere does it say (Not even unit descriptions !) that EA Ulm fears magic. In fact, EA Ulm is affected by Drain ! EA Ulm has quite high magic and lots of randoms, even on smiths. Lots of variety. And... 8 MR ? Why ? In EA Ulm, mages seem to be easily accepted part of the society. If anything, MA Ulm should have lower MR than EA Ulm, because they've lost lots of their magic, Drain is coming, etc.
--------

Ulm progression through eras is really strange. I think MA Ulm -> LA Ulm is ok from thematic point of view. But if I was new to Dom3, my guess would be that Transylwania Ulm belongs in MA and Tin Can Ulm is from LA. LA Ulm has more magic, light and medium infantry, as well as heavies. But ok...
Now look at EA Ulm -> MA Ulm. Almost no sense of connection except for smithing discount ! Very different tactics (ambushes), magic, military, even weapons used. It would be hard to guess they're ancestors of MA Ulm. 1 Era later, Ulm is radically transformed AND already abandoning the "old ways" of "no magic" ? Master smiths already falling out of grace and Black Priests quite prominent ? I think MA Black Order looks stronger than the one from LA.
---
Endoperez:

Battleaxes might be a little better in some cases (and certainly better against elephants) but the difference is quite marginal. 6% you say ? About 1/20 . If you choose cheaper mauls over battleaxes, 2 resource less per soldier means you get 13 maulers per 12 battleaxes. Also quite marginal. My main point is, it's too redundant and it would be much more interesting to have entriely different weapon in its place. MA Ulm is interesting because they don't use any swords...how about a kopesh ? ;-)

What's really bad about hammer infantry is that, to my knowledge, they are affected by the same parry laws as everyone else. Infantry in very heavy armour AND with heavy shields shouldn't be so afraid of enemies with longer weapons. They have biiig shields to parry and unusually heavy armour. Yes, I know blck plates have +1 morale now(and it helps against longer weapons) but LOTS of units of other nations have morale this high or even higher, so it hardly matters.

By the way: If I remember correctly, either JK or KO said that morningstars work a bit different in Dom3. Instead of "piercing" shields, they substract 4 from shield defense, or something. But I was mainly offended by hammer infantry. Hammer infantry tires quickly, deals low damage, and costs a LOT.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Morningstars and flails get +2 attack against shielded units.

Yeah, hammer/shield guys are definitely worst of the lot. They are just inferior compared to morningstar/shield troops, while maul and battleaxe don't really differ from each other.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Borsuk, the progression makes perfect sense. Between EA and MA, Ulm was invaded
by The Stupid. They threw away their swords, locked their women home, and
decided that lifting dumbbells was substitute for martial training. Do not
believe the propaganda. They did not decide that magic was bad. They just
lost 30 points off their IQ, and it was all sour grapes from then on.

The smiths escaped the curse of the Stupid, because when the dumbbell worshiping
mob came to lynch them, they showed them a heavy hammer, and told them it was
a just a special kind of free weight. Of course, this backfired as the morons
who heard it became the hammer wielding infantry.

By the way, Ulm still has swords. Look at the arbalesters. Why do you think they
are decent infantry?

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Mauls are less expensive in resources, making them the least expensive troop in the whole of Ulm's arsenal. The "drawback" is one less defense.
If you are fighting low attack high HP units like giants and Agarthans battle axes might be more preferable.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

The Stupid in question happen to be Ermor. Dom:PPP Ulm broke away from Broken Empire with the help of steel, like Marignon did with priests and Pythium with magic.

Re: Halt Heretic - Opinions
 

Ah, a favorite subject of mine, progression from EA to MA to LA and how to tie it all together. Better brace yourselves, people.

It all begins (and ends) with Ermor, since that nation is most intimately tied with so many others (C'tis, Pythium, Ulm, Marverni, Marignon and perhaps even Arcoscephale). According to the original script, Ermor rose to become a mighty nation that conquered most of the world and then fell into darkness in a cataclysmic disaster that brought the Ashen Empire into being.

In Dominions 2 we got the Broken Empire as an alternate historical timeline. When Dominions 3 came around, Kristoffer put Broken Empire in MA and tried to make all the tangled history work together though it doesn't do it very well because they are parallel alternate timelines. That's why it gives us such schizophrenic side effects with some of the other nations and why the Ashen Empire descriptions clash with MA Ermor's.

In the case of Ulm, it was one of the conquered territories that was subjugated and so was Marverni. If we go by what I personally consider the official history (i.e. the original story), things make a lot more sense. The Augur Elders dabbled with stolen C'tissian secrets, screwed up and caused the cataclysm. Cue Ashen Empire (which really should be in MA by that account). For the barbarians of Ulm who have been Ermorian vassals for a few centuries, this would represent the ultimate corruption and taint their views on magic pretty damned severely. So they turn to steel and eschew magic. Marverni, which has been absorbing more influences from Ermor and is more influenced by their old Flamen and numina cults and which was always more devoutly religious turns even deeper into religion and brings the cleansing power of holy fire to bear on the nemesis. MA Ulm and MA Marignon, i.e. the original Ulm and Marignon, are born.

Later, when the Ashen Empire has finally been defeated (or is about to be or is not yet, depending on how you want the story to go), the Iron Cult emerges in Ulm and starts gaining influence. Eventually it causes unrest and schisms inside Ulm, possibly with the help of corrupted elements from elsewhere, Ermorian Death Cultists, what have you and all kinds of dark practices get introduced in secret cabals. Civil war between the Black Order, the Iron Cult (which may or may not have already absorbed the Black Knights) and the master smiths and their supporters gives the secret factions more leeway to work their dark designs that culminate in the Malediction. Basically, a usurper god kicks the old, feeble god of MA Ulm off the throne, curses the land and alters its characteristics and brings about the Ulm of the Black Forest.

Meanwhile in Marignon, heresy has been stamped out and the Chalice Knights grow complacent, unrest from neighboring Ulm spills over, there may or may not be other influences at work here too and these funny little devil cults start cropping up, some perhaps even inside the church, born out of the fear and desperation of prominent clergy who are willing to pay any price to avoid the kingdom being overrun by the Ashen Empire. An inquisitor looking the other way here, a few blood sacrifices there, some pious blather about the common good requiring hard choices and a few choice appeals to how sacrifices were okay in the old days (Marverni) and pretty soon we're talking about the Dom2 era Diabolic Faith Marignon, which is essentially what the LA Marignon in Dom3 is (only with the Conquerors of the Sea theme tacked on and it's a fairly poor fit in my opinion).

That's a nice little progression there that makes perfect sense and has deliciously many shades of gray and makes for grand drama. It all practically requires Ashen Empire to be MA and Ermor's fall to be cataclysmic.

*****

The other side of the coin, Broken Empire... Suddenly, MA Ulm is no longer a logical continuation of the events of EA and the Fall of Ermor. Marignon likewise. C'tis starts having thematical problems, but on a far, far lesser scale. This is all true only as long as Broken Empire Ermor stays in MA. But what if Broken Empire migrates to Late Era while Ashen Empire sneaks back into Middle Era?

Cue following alternate history, drawn from Edi's overactive imagination:

So, some smart cookies in the EA Ermor took a look at how the Empire was going, saw that it'd be a good idea for continued longevity to get out while the getting is good and set themselves up in a comfortable exile in Pythium. Ulm and Marignon and all the others keep on fighting Ashen Empire, with help from Pythium perhaps as well and this goes on through the Middle Era. C'tissian advisers on Death magic come to Pythium to give them aid and together with influences from Arcoscephale and points further give rise to the cultic system that comes into its own in Late Era.

We remember that in the Late Era, the Theurgs have become superfluous in face of the Serpent Cult and its allies the Cult of the Sacred River of Life and Death (another Cult if C'tissian origin). At the same time, Ermorian exiles who may have had more than a little support among the old Theurgic order amalgamate the teachings of the C'tissian River of Life and Death cult and the Theurgic order, giving rise to the Thaumaturgs.

Say they have a very strong presence somewhere in the provinces along the border with old Ermor proper and after the final defeat of the Ashen Empire are looking to get their heritage back. So they take two or three provinces lock, stock and barrel, strike out on their own and make a pact with some new god on the side, that they will serve him and keep Death at bay if this new god helps them make Old Ermor habitable again. So instead of being the one, final gasping speedbump in the way of an emerging Ashen Empire, they would in this history be cleaning up the wreck and trying to put the shards of the broken empire back together again. Wresting the land back from the Ash, as it were, and they'd need power over the dead to make it work.

So, this is not an official history of the Dominions world, but it's the one I prefer because it neatly solves a lot of otherwise complicated continuum problems that make my head explode if I try to work out a Broken Empire Ermor in MA.

Too bad that switching the Broken and Ashen Empire around right now would break a whole lot of crockery with the community and ongoing games. I might be tempted to actually make a modded BE Ermor switched to LA sometime. All it needs is descriptions redone...