Re: Tartanians
 

I love blight, too. And Black Death - which is Blight on steroids.

As for tartarian nerfing - I like the idea of making them un-healable (or making their insanity special). That seems to fit most with their cost. The cost is fairly low to summon one, but it becomes a risky strategy rather than a sure bet. You might get something nice early on, or you might have to summon 30 of then before you get anything useful as other than a meatshield or magic-less thug.

It would make a tartarian strategy easier to do (no need to have the Chalice or GoH)and, most importantly, make it a real strategic *choice*. Some people would see the risk and choose to shoot for something else with their resources, while others might see the upside and go for it.

Re: Tartanians
 

Good suggestions, RonD.

Re: Tartanians
 

Maybe make GOR'ed Tartarians have a chance of becoming "unleashed" like the Eater of the Dead? That one's thematic...:)

Re: Tartanians
 

Speculated in insanity-caused break-frees.

Re: Tartanians
 

Not only thematic but fun and hilarious when it happens. Nice idea!

Re: Tartanians
 

I love the idea of Tartarians becoming unleashed. I do not consider myself a
newbie by any means, but I do not remember playing a game that went past turn 50
and did not end as a Tartarian fest. I'm not saying that Tartarians are the
ultimate weapon, because they are tons of ways of picking them off. But they
are a better deal that anything else, and a Hell of a lot more durable.

I have fielded an army with 15 Tartarian casters, and 20-30 Tartarian meat
shields. Since that game, I tried avoiding large games, but I inherited one
from my uncle. At least two players in that game have Tartarians that I
have seen. This turn I'll become the third, although I'll have to rely on
the non-senile ones. At least I will have plenty of meat shields. And yeah,
I am saying this publicly, and summoning them in a province that borders all
but one of the remaining players because I do not want to be seen as defenseless.

If it were up to me, I would start Tartarians with a 0-100% insanity, I would
give them a 1% increase 50% of the time, and I would have a 10% chance of
going indy every turn they are insane. I would do something similar with
Doom Horrors, and even with Demons and Elemental Royalties. Not that it is
needed, but I would like to see more mages and troops as opposed to
supercombatants.

Re: Tartanians
 

The trouble is in the end game that ordinary troops are too easy to wipe out with remote damage spells and Ghost Riders (Ghost Riders, in particular, is nuts). So in the extreme late game SCs seem like the only option.

I should add that I am not very experienced in the end game, and may be simply wrong.

Re: Tartanians
 

A little off topic, but a question regarding the alternatives to Tartarians: Iron Dragons, Abominations, etc. How does one go about making these units effective for end game? Is GoR still the the way to go? Or any of these units hiding magic paths? Etc.

Also, I think it stinks how end games "devolve" into Tartarian summoning contests.

Re: Tartanians
 

Iron Dragons/Abominations ect are just good units. Probably not as efficent as tartarians, but still nice. An army of units like those backed by some SC killers(mages or your own specially kitted out SCs/thugs) can be pretty hard to remove without really high level magic which often has counters of its own.

Re: Tartanians
 

There's not as much use in GoR'ing the Abominations since they are lacking slots. They're best accompanied by mages that can buff them with, for example, Army of Lead, Mist Warriors, Will of Fates etc.

Re: Tartanians
 

I just tried Creeping Doom too. My ants got buffed post-summons, so survivability was not so bad, but they're way too slow to have any impact at all.

It would be really nice if they appeared out of the ground near the enemy, instead of clustered at the caster.

Re: Tartanians
 

You MUST acquire The Chalice.

You didn't say what nation you play, but as Ermor, I go for Construction-4 (for the skull mentor), and then to Conjuration-8 (for Well-of-Misery), and then back to Construction for the level-8 privilege of unique items, of which "The Chalice" is my top choice, followed by "The Ark", followed by the "Sword of Injustice."

The Chalice will heal the feeble-mindedness of the Tartarians which will not only allow them to be commanders, but in the interrim, to research on the side!

Without a means of healing a Tartarian, they are useless.
(Grab the Chalice.)

Re: Tartanians
 

No, won't work. If you sway away from construction in MP, you will not get the Chalice. Too many players go straight for it. You will only get it by Wishing.

Re: Tartanians
 

For a single Creeping Doom you can cast Swarm twice. It's cheaper in all ways: fatigue, gems, research, paths. I don't think you can beat Swarm at its own game. And that's not the point. The spell has 'doom' in it's name, which is either a very strong word, or Kristoffer's humor. I think they are supposed to deal some damage. Unbuffed (I didn't see a point considering they have so low hp etc) they couldn't kill or even harm a single barbarian. 70+ (NNNN) ants versus 30 ordinary barbarians. Barbs do have some protection, but quite low. What am I supposed to use the spell against ? I think they're meant to be used as a weapon, too. Otherwise why give them weak poison ? Thematic reasons ? I think they should have an AN weapon, their damage is 0 and str is pitiful. Summon Animals can actually kill stuff...
Another disadvantage of the ants is that they seem to act as a single squad and are not very good at swarming.

Re: Tartanians
 

Swarm is a very nice spell indeed. Especially when spammmed. Those dragonflies can actually kill SCs, when you cast enough of them.

Re: Tartanians
 

Dohh...here is another one these universal strategies. So are most veterans in MP going straight to Construction 8?

I tend to get Const 4 for skull mentors then go for Thaum 2, Evo 2, Conj 2, for site searching. I bounce around a lot to try different spells that seem useful. I have not gone past Const 6 in any of my MP games yet. A couple I am doing well in on the score graphs are in the turn 50ish stage but now I have a feeling I am going to get smoked big time with Tartarians and Chalices. In Capuchin, Everz' Tartarian has already been spotted eyeballing my shores, and Zeldor is shopping his Chalice in Epikbattel. Oh the horror... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

I rarely make clams either. Am I completely nonthreatening?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif I may just keep playing in the noob games for years, like the guy who never makes it past 6th grade.

Re: Tartanians
 

No, not necessarily. If you can cast Gift of Health and hold it up, that will heal your Tartarians better than anything, even the Chalice. The problem is in holding it up, when other player see what you are doing.

The Nature nations have the least trouble doing this, but they are not very good at creating a Tartarian factory.

Re: Tartanians
 

And it's exactly what keeps me from trying MP. It sounds like 90% of spells and units are not used in MP. Is it all about elephants, thugs, SC's, mages ?
(Another thing is that I'm simply not familiar enough with all the items and spells. I don't want to try MP before I finish my Wunderwaffe. )

Re: Tartanians
 

I actually find MP a blast, its just that the games take so long that as a noob, it takes you 3 months to realize that, while you may be one of the leaders in terms of provinces, gems, and research, you may actually have zero chance to win.

Nevertheless, I get a lot of enjoyment out of building my kingdom and humorously role-playing my nation in MP, but it is comically tragic when, as happened to me in Urapara, suddenly a single golem decked out in tons of gear appears and proceeds from province to province, obliterating huge armies with ease and wiping out all the progress that was achieved over the months.

Even still, I find SP much drier / less thoughtful and can rarely finish a game.

The ideal for me is like chess, its the most fun when played with someone around your same level. If only there were Dominions ratings for players....

Re: Tartanians
 

DonCorazon:

Now you would be able to get Iron Golem and put gear on him and he could surely make a nice fight with my Golem http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Tartanians
 

IMO it's never the case. If you are first in research you have lots of mages, so you can win even if you have missed the usual SC/artefact based strats. Mages and an higher research than your opponents are the best counters against anything.

You just have to equip well your mages to resist against the kind of mass destruction spells or artefacts your ennemies can use, and script them to cast anti-SC spells (slaying/enslave/paralysis spells if their MR is not too high, or unresistable fatigue or dammage against the unit type -a tartarian and all the undead chaff surrounding him may be killed by a dozen of mages casting wither bones ie -or even solar rays if he is the only target-)

The gems and army size stats are the most misleading ones as magical income (clams etc) don't appear, and army size count an overpowered SC just as one size 6 unit. But if you are first in research (and to a less extent provinces, income) you usually have good chances to win.

Re: Tartanians
 

You need some kind of a save-or-die spell, though. Soul Slay, Petrify, Charm, something. That, or mages who can cast more AN damage spells than your opponent can stack resistances, and perhaps thugs in the event he does manage to get all resistances: Thunder Strike, Frozen Heart, Incinerate and a thug(s) with high-damage AP weapon would probably be enough.

Re: Tartanians
 

How do you survive long enough (and expand and get enough gems and gold to recruit mages to research) to get to Construction 8 without researching anything else?

No summons, your mages are almost useless on the battlefield. Some nations could get by just equipping their thug-like recruitables, though they couldn't self-buff. Most would have to rely on normal troops without mage support, and I suppose a pretender SC. Who can't be optimized as an SC since you need him to cover whatever paths you don't have natively for the Chalice and Tartarians.
And you've then got to go to Conjuration 9 to summon Tartarians.

Sure, if you do you'll be in good shape for the end game, but aren't they usually serious wars long before then? Or is this a turtle strategy? Whoever hides without fighting and gets away with it wins?

Re: Tartanians
 

Not all MP players go for Construction 8. I for example tend to ignore it for a
long time. There are only a few artifacts that are game altering, and it's not
worth sacrificing your early game for a chance of getting them. You can always
wish for them later. The Chalice, Mage Bane, The Death+3 Stick, The Forbidden
Light... even some of those, while awesome, have to be used in combat, and thus
tend to change hands. Mage Bane + Armour of Virtue is a Hell of a pain, though.

Re: Tartanians
 

Sure Con8 can only reasonably be reached by people not heavily at war? Con gives you pretty weak battlefield capabilities, and getting a few nifty gizmos must be of little joy when your armies are disappearing in large magic blasts and provinces tumbling behind them.

Re: Tartanians
 

Towards the end of one of my early MP games I got the disheartening feeling that everything I was doing was pointless, when people started saying things like "everything you have is useless against Tartarians anyway", "if you haven't been beelining for Construction 8 you've been wasting your time" etc. In my now considerably more experienced opinion, these things simply aren't the case. There are any number of approaches to the whole game and I try something different every time.

Of course, if you actually want to win a large game with a lot of players, you will need some cunning plan to be powerful in the early, mid and late games, and different things will be needed at each stage. (Though if you are playing a smallish game with 8 players or so, the true late game stage will never even be reached.)

Anyway, my advice is: Don't be disheartened. It is absolutely NOT the case that the game boils down to a few minmaxed strategies in competitive multiplayer. That is why this game is so awesome.

Incidentally I don't have a minmaxing mindset at all, and tend to do pretty well in multiplayer. I think quite a bit of that comes from success in diplomacy though.

Re: Tartanians
 

I think it comes from people giving you a free pass to territory and not attacking you for some reason. I followed a few games and it seems like you were obviously the big threat but people were continuing their private wars regardless. Digress might elaborate further : P

Re: Tartanians
 

LLamabeast, that is good to hear. I love the diplomatic / and quasi-RPG aspects of MP, even to the extent of sometimes taking an action that may not be in my nation's best interest (going to war on behalf of an ally I like for example). I prefer fun to winning but it is encouraging to hear though that there are multiple paths to victory because at least having a chance to win makes gameplay more exciting.

Otherwise, the so-called "strategy" in a game is actually just formulaic knowledge of what you need to do to win, like memorizing a recipe (research x, summon x, build x, kill !!!) -- not what strategy should be which is the ability to analyze a unique situation and try to come up with novel responses, which is what Dominions seems to offer with its abundance of content and options.

Anyway, sorry to get this thread off topic.

Now speak wise traveller of these dread entities known as the Tartanians and how we might use them to further our dreams of conquest.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/stupid.gif

Re: Tartanians
 

Within one of my recent MP games which has ended, my opponent attacked several different provinces with fully decked Tartarians... even my blessed Lanka demons could not scratch them.

I know of counter strategies for bringing them down, yet their default stats are so impressive... and when combined with items they're so powerful.


I've listed some ideas for changes:

1) Improve tartarian counter spells such as maggots and blindness.

2) Lower magic resistance of tartarians... they've been killed a decayed brain shouldn't be as strong as a full healthy pretender.

3) Introduce a set of new spells which remove elemental resistances for a single target.

4) Use Kristoffers suggestion of a new type of insanity for tartarians.

5) Add new single handed weapons which damage undead.

Re: Tartanians
 

Is it I, or does going to level-9 in Conjuration make little sense for all but a few.

Literally, who would do that EXCEPT to conjure Tartarians? (Or some freaky s**t.)

As Ermor, I go for Construction 4 (Skull Mentor), then Conjuration-8 (Well of Misery), and then back to Construction-8 for unique items:
#1: The Chalice.
#2: The Sword of Injustice.
#3: The Ark.

If I acquire all three, you are going to see such wrath as you have never seen before.
====================================
As stated by Agema, if under war, your chances of acquiring the knowledge are slim.
{Possibly Ermor aside, as he only needs to hold his home province to acquire vast research.}
[I personally (as Ermor) have been reduced to my home provence alone, and have expanded to win the game.]
================================================== =========
================================================== =====
In the end, Tartarians are useless, UNLESS you have a cure:

Re: Tartarians
 

Is it I, or does going to level-9 in Conjuration make little sense for all but a few.

Literally, who would do that EXCEPT to conjure Tartarians? (Or some freaky s**t.)

As Ermor, I go for Construction 4 (Skull Mentor), then Conjuration-8 (Well of Misery), and then back to Construction-8 for unique items:
#1: The Chalice.
#2: The Sword of Injustice.
#3: The Ark.

If I acquire all three, you are going to see such wrath as you have never seen before.
====================================
As stated by Agema, if under war, your chances of acquiring the knowledge are slim.
{Possibly Ermor aside, as he only needs to hold his home province to acquire vast research.}
[I personally (as Ermor) have been reduced to my home provence alone, and have expanded to win the game.]
================================================== =========
================================================== =====
In the end, Tartarians are useless, UNLESS you have a cure:
Either "Gift of Health", which is questionable, or:
"The Chalice" which is your panacea.
The Chalice is probably THE MOST underrated artifact.
It's ability to cure is unprecedented, and it can be teleported around the map (by the nature of Laboratories).

------------------------
Faithfully submitted,
--HNC3.

Re: Tartarians
 

The Chalice is probably THE MOST underrated artifact

Ummm .... I don't think so.

Its a super, duper artifact that is desired by all by the time the game is approaching its later stages. Everyone can find uses for it - though often its held to keep it out of the hands of the player with the most efficient tartarian factory.


I love the idea of a new type of insanity for Tartarians - especially ones where they proclaim themselves a new pretender and raise up an army of their ancient (and very dead) followers.

Other just plain nutty tartarian moves would add spice.

"Cloud trapeze deep into your opponents lands a cause havoc you say ? How about I raise a temple to my/yours/our greatness ? or attack random neighbouring province ? or place myself under the command of one of your enemies because their pretender reminds of girlfriend I once had in Titan School ?"

Re: Tartarians
 

Most awesome thinking Digress

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: Tartarians
 

Is anyone else bothered by the fact that this post is named Tartanians, instead of Tartarians? Not a huge big deal, but it might make searching harder in the future.

Re: Tartanians
 

NTJedi,

Not sure more anti-undead spells are really a good idea. Ermor already has enough problems and any such spells will see a wider application against undead.

The insanity idea is fun though, I like that.

LingChih,

Sorry about the spelling. Strangely, many of the words in the game do not come up in spell check and most of my posts are made while “working for a living” so I don’t have the manual handy.

Re: Tartanians
 

Hehe. No prob. I will just have to remember in the future, when I search for this stuff, that I might need to search for Tartanians as well.

Re: Tartanians
 

Or you could just search under Tartarians, and search the body of posts as well.

Tartarians (long thread)
 

There, this I think would show up in a search for what you'd be looking for, without having to go through all the extra posts you'd get from a subject search.

Re: Tartarians
 

Now that I posted this reply with the subject changed, even title search should show this thread.

In other news, there are no tartar-tartans in Dominions.

EDIT: I was late, is seems. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Tartanians
 

If you are fighting Oceana, you can have the Tartanians prepare tartar sauce before attacking, as it makes the rations tastier…

Alternativly, we could have 10% of summoned Tartanians actually be Holmberg chefs who have a +7 ability to prepare tarts. This would boost supply for the army...

Re: Tartanians
 

Returning to the "make Tartarians a little bit unpredictable" theme.

Maybe some of them should be heretics - though by the time they are available in the game this will result in micromanagement rather than anything else but I reckon it makes sense.

Raise to dead god - well it may attract followers and reduce your pretenders dominion.

Re: Tartanians
 

The idea of insane tartarians is fun and thematic but would add even more randomness in endgame if it works like standard insanity.

Actually the lucky guy getting some tartarian commanders (20N discount to use them) without too many afflictions can have an huge advantage. With random insanity in addition a lucky player will have one more huge bonus when other's tartarians become mad.

So I'd prefer a not too random system, with choices giving more chances to keep control or not (an idea : special insanity with % based on gem value or research level of items carried ; the more a tartarian recieve high level items the more he feels powerful and risks to become unleashed and claim godhood for himself). Then it becomes a strategic choice to take the risk and gear a tartarian with artefacts etc..., or use them with just their built in items to be sure to keep control (but making them more vulnerable of course).

Re: Tartanians
 

Actually, using this for every unit and commander in the game might be even funnier than leaving it only for tartarians...

Re: Tartanians
 

Perhaps a relatively easy fix would be to just make all of them (or maybe 99%) non-commanders. The only really rediculous deal is when they pop out for only 10 death, being fully commanders with spells. If you have to GoR them, all of a sudden they are really not insanely cheap anymore, so being conjuration-9 after all, I don't see much of a problem with them.

Re: Tartanians
 

I think that the problem is that they are really good for high levels of Death and Conjuration, and there isn't something similar for other paths of magic and research. Conjuration 9 should be quite strong, but enchantment, alteration and the others should be at least equally powerfull, not so behind.

Re: Tartanians
 

Lets see enchantment 9 has...

Arcane Nexus and Gift of Nature's Bounty

Alteration 9 has...

Army lead/gold, wish, utterdark

Jazzepi

Re: Tartanians
 

Exactly. It is rather comparing tartarians to summons from other schools. For example nature summons, that are well... pathetic?

I just wish there were more 8 and 9 level national summons. I really don't understand why T'ien Ch'i does not have 4 Dragon Kings.

Re: Tartanians
 

So, if all the schools have something strong at level 9 then what is the problem? If you have death go for Conj, if you have nature Enchant, earth alteration....

You do not need to balance tartarians against all the other summons, but death/conj9 to the other magic/schools9.

Re: Tartanians
 

> I really don't understand why T'ien Ch'i does not have 4 Dragon Kings.

I really don't understand why T'ien Ch'i does not have 8 dragon kings http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I would guess that it depends on me making stuff. I tend to focus on one nation at a time. Since national summons was new in dom2 most nations didn't have many at that time. T'ien Ch'i got some, but not that many. Those that they have are still quite ugly, and I wouldn't have problems coming up with a dozen or two new national summons for them. It's basically a matter of what I prioritize and what inspires me atm.

Besides working with Gath I have flelt like making some new japanese critters, mostly because I feel I didn't make enough of them. THere are several that I feel are missing.

T'ien Ch'i is in the same boat, but I have not thought too much about them.

Machaka need more attention as well, both with their existing troops and should get some new summons and two new eras.

The vanir and the jotuns are still behind in the national summons race and should be looked over. I find it annoying that the old norse nations have recieved less attention than most other nations.

There should be more middle eastern summons. There are plenty to use.

There should be national blood summons based on nation. How thematic are devils in a far eastern setting?

There is clearly room for more Zoroastrian beings apart from the spentas and yazatas.


I would not mind having them all, but it will take a while, and all will not happen.

Re: Tartanians
 

Kristoffer: I think LA Atlantis deserves some better underwater recruitables. At the moment they have some coral light infantry and Consort. Don't forget they supposedly made a pact with a dark god to lead them back into the sea.. But current situation almost discourages players from pursuing underwater provinces. I think LA Atlantis should get something special from underwater castles. Or at least an amphibian summon that can only be cast underwater.