Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

I think the sooner AIs attack the best it is for them, as they are mostly bad in the magic area (playing with very difficult research should help them too).

Offensive AIs attack more both other AIs and players.
But if you set ten AIs on offensive on a small map, I think there are good chances that some of them gang against you (especially if you have a better start than most AIs and so have several neighbours fast).

There is also a map command to avoid to see AIs fighting each other (but it may lead to some AIs not succeeding to expand as another AI hold a crucial chokepoint).

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

This probably won't help anyone but the AI can still kick my butt in SP because of the fact that I don't play Dom3 as often as I want to.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

This sounds interesting. I get annoyed when the AI sends mountains of chaff against me. Where is this mod? I did a quick search but couldn't find it.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

You can find a link to the thread in my sig, in the FAQ and in the sticky modlist in the maps and mods subforum. Just make sure that you avoid using enslave mind or charm against independents, because the gold cost version of the mod makes all the chaff indies cost 9000 gold, which translates to 600 upkeep apiece.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

I was thinking it should be easy to mod a fix that reduces the penalty for bad scales to the point where it is giving free points to the AI for taking them ( the player would have to refrain from taking bad scales). But that wouldn't work would it, because good scales are tied to bad.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

You have me pegged. It half about otfitting may favorie commanders and seeing what becomes of them.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

Well, I made an undead markata prophet SC recently. And then forgot to script him, so he did cast priest spells and fatigue got him down http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

On your computer browse into the docs folder and read the map edit PDF document. It will allow you to setup one or more AI's as allies, allow you to give the AI's growth scales, and more.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

As somebody with a bizarre sense of humor and some difficulty with respect to doing work in games, I like to build up to a strong position, and then conduct what are often highly inefficient experiments.

I think I once had a regiment of Mechanical Men, led by a GoR'd and empowered Mechanical Man, in the Flying Ship, simply because the concept of a highly mobile robot army amused me.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

Roleplaying and inefficient strategy testing is one of the few things that keep me playing SP. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I LOVE making weaker commanders into roleplay units with an assortment of gear to see how many kills they can rack up during battles. Especially in games where I take high luck and get a lot of items I would not use otherwise.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

I'll chime in as an SP player - this game is very light-weight and easy to travel with, and I enjoy it on business travel. I agree that role playing and making up stories to go with the play are more important than minimaxing the AI.

Question: for you other SP players out there - would there be any energy around creating/playing a new set of SP-focused maps?

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

Roleplaying in SP? Seems a bit odd, but I can see how it might be fun if there were SP focused scenario maps. Speaking of which, are there any such maps?

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

There's a borrowed map of Europe on one of the Dom II sites that is easy to mod to 'historic' starting positions.

I've been desultorily working on an map of mystic India, with the Bandar and Kailasa battling it out in the jungles of the south, Abyssia rising in the Deccan Traps, airy Caelum flitting among the peaks of the Himalya, and the armies of Alexander...errr... Arcoscephale approaching from the west.

I've got the map working and am learning the other modding capabilities to see how much of a story I can string together with some custom magic sites, items, and random events.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

Hmm, I wonder if Dominions could compare with say, Warlords in terms of SP. On the other hand, you could also make it more like a "build a SC" RPG if you scattered powerful magic gear around the map that you would have to defeat specific monsters to get, like the Sun Gear.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

Sounds very cool, I can't wait to see it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

I think this idea would be the ideal solution to the problem stated above. If everyone who enjoys building SP maps uploads their finished work somewhere, all the SP fans end up with a library of new maps to try.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

KO: I'm not sure I understand your explanation for random scales. Why would the effect of a pretending being's aura on the land be random? Why wouldn't it have something to do with the kind of being that is doing the pretending?

So it'd seem to make more sense, given what you said your aim is, to tie scales thematically to pretender, so any nation led by a PoD would have death scales, Lord of the Hunt growth, Oracle magic, Lady of Fortune luck etc.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

I think the issue with random scales is that is it just easier to implement. Of course if it were possible for the game to accept a package of player-made pretender/scales designs from the community, then maybe it would be possible to create more challenging SP opponents. Master of Magic had something like this, it had a set of pre-made opponents that you would encounter. Of course, I think it was only about ten or eleven, but it is an interesting example.

Of course, maybe you still need to get the AI to exploit the player-made designs, e.g. in the case of pretender god designed around a bless strategy, but it could be a first step. And of course, useful scales, like productivity for Ulm or Abysia would probably help out the AI automatically. Just a thought.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

True... there are many tough decisions when developing the computer opponents. This is why I've recommended developers providing multiple AI personalities with the option for gamers to create new personalities and/or adjust existing personalities. Each AI opponent by default should randomly select a personality, yet the gamer should have the option to also choose a specific personality if desired.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

That's funny you said that because I am trying to make a scenario based on the game Warlords. In this scenario one of the main objectives is to create rules that the AI can deal with. Pretenders and scales are preset. Every city has their own unique units (made unique to that city through a magic site). No nation has national units but instead their starting province magic sites will provide them with some good "national units". Also the gameplay will focus on troops so SC and to some degree thugs will be no existance. Also I am trying to make spells less powerful and more unique to different mages or nations. All the provinces resources and gold are edited to create a balanced game for all nations.

All in all the scenario will be streamlined to make the AI better but also to provide a MP scenario for those of us that don't like SCs and thugs.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

My point is that it is the scales that make the pretender into a being of growth or turmoil, not the physical appearence. But I agree that it would feel thematically nice to have a fertility god that looks as one.

In the case of, say an Oracle, or generic titan there is nothing to say what kind of dominion it should have. A titan might very well be a being of storms, thunder, devastation and turmoil. Many middle eastern gods were gods of death and rebirth, and should probably have dominions of growth half of the year (death the other half?) and order, since the change of the seasons is a recurring event. Gods of death might have dominions of growth since they command death and pestilence and keep it from the living. Other gods might be harsh and punishing and combine the worst kind of environment combined with a demand for utter order and servitude. If this god uses death magic, fire or sparingly gives fertility to the few blessed is up to your imagination.

Gods do not follow conventions very much. So totally random scales felt OK and gives greater variation. When you meet the Oracle of death you start to think about what kind of pretending god it is. God of all putrid waters? or perhaps the Thief of Freshness that draws the life from the land in an effort to aid its inhabitants and send destruction upon the enemies of the land.

If I redesigned the game I would perhaps begin with scales and then get a few available chassis from there on, but I'm quite fond of random gods. It sparkles my imagination at least http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

I love the idea of role-playing in the game. I don't do it enough, and it might be fun to start a MP game where role-playing was emphasized. The yarnspinner games were sort of like that, but I was too lazy to write regularly.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

The scales only seem random to our mere mortal intellects. The gods' aspects make perfect sense in the light of their ineffible divine wisdom.

Or maybe it's just that the gods must be crazy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

Well it's a strategy game too, and strategy gaming sort of demands opponents that put up a fight. No offence KO but SP dominions 3 just isn't as nice to play as in MP (which usually is so IMHO but I mean it's less nice than MP compared to other games (does this make sense?)).

It's your game of course but I think a majority of the people here would think it was a better game if there was some AI behind choosing the scales (or several dozen pre-created pretenders) just becuase it would then put up more of a fight and not kill itself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif
Other improvemets to AI would also be nice but just the scales would already help a lot.. or the OPTION to select that (as mentioned above).

As MP game I think is a very good game, as SP not so good.


PS I think the original poster of the thread would indeed be best of to forget dominions 3, if you don't want MP (which is great) and don't like the SP (which I can relate to somewhat) then please have fun with other games http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

Fantastic.

"FEAR ME! FOR I AM THE THIEF OF FRESHNESS"

"Noooo! All our breads, they are croutons now! We are lost!"

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

What's wrong with croutons ? Aren't they nice in soups?

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

If what the thief of freshness does to bread doesn't scare you...take a look a the soup.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

Does it make the soup undead?

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

Aezeal said:
Well it's a strategy game too, and strategy gaming sort of demands opponents that put up a fight...It's your game of course but I think a majority of the people here would think it was a better game if there was some AI behind choosing the scales (or several dozen pre-created pretenders) just becuase it would then put up more of a fight and not kill itself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

I'd second this - I personally do not game online (so won't ever try MP for Dominions or anything else) and would suggest that many "anti-social gamers" are less likely to post at forums, hence the MP bias here.

The exploration/role-playing aspects are certainly fine for the initial games, but a competent AI is really necessary for long-term appeal.

In the case of scales, it would seem fairly simple to keep the random generation but to add a sanity check to force a reroll when a clearly unfavourable combination (Turmoil/Death/Misfortune) comes up. Having more specific selection criteria for certain nations (LA Ermor probably doesn't need Growth, the Nordic nations shouldn't choose Heat) would help the AI without decreasing variety.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

I think there are some criteria for national scales. This was the case in dom2 at least. There might have been unintentional changes to this. IIRC Ermor was hardcoded to have other settings than other nations and cold/heat loving nations often took the preffered scale, but with the differentiation into eras and a tripling of nations numbers this might have been screwed up, (probably not the cold/heat stuff, but possibly ermor's preferences).

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

Next thing you're telling me that there's still people playing Conquest of Elysium, too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif

Ah, those people. Masochists.

---

The idea of having pre-made pretenders for the AI is interesting. Or at least some templates that can get modified/mixed/mutated like in genetic algorithms. Very often you have problems where the initial task of finding a good/valid solution is very hard (time schedules for example) if you do it by random / trial-and-error, but once you have found a valid solution you can quite easily find other solutions by modifying that one a little, through point mutations (little changes to the initial concept). Other games like Armageddon Empires go as far as having a very good AI, but a collection of some couple dozen premade decks for the AI with some hints how it should use them, something like an AI personality of sorts if you want. If we'd ever see stuff like this in the Dominions series, it would be a major success I'd think.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

One change that (I think) would benefit the AI and is easily accomplished is to hard code the temperature to ideal for each nation and then hard code growth, luck and research to 3 (my preference)for all AI nations. Maybe reduce AI points somewhat, but not entirely, to reflect the scales adjustment.

This would satisfy KO's preference for random deities to give each game a different aspect, yet it would remove the glaring weaknesses of AI random scales selection and give it an edge in decidedly benefical scales.

And hard code Mictlan to an awake pretender so they don't die a dominion death in the first 2/3 turns.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

I never play mp. The main reasons I bought this game is that it looks like fun and especially is advertised that it has a "challenging ai."

Haven't had much time to play it yet. Was about to really study the manual and do the tutorial again but now I don't think so.

It would be nice if publishing companies had some honesty in their advertising.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

Challenging AI?

That's a weird thing to advertise dom3 as having.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

Chicks. He meant he bought it because of the hot chicks. But he was afraid to say that. At least that's where the advertisement is true to the product.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

LOL. Take a look at the game advertisement page. Down at the bottom. I kid you not. If it had said mediocre ai then I would have saved $50 because I wouldn't have bought the game.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

Rich, I think it's a bit odd to complain about the game before you even try more than the tutorial.

I think SP is fun. Of course it's not as challenging or fun as MP, but I don't think you can reasonably expect it to be.

All 4X games can be beaten once you figure them out. So once you're having a bit too easy of a time, you impose self-limitations. With Dom3, usually I think the first one of these that people use is to not hire mercenaries. So if you're not seeing enough challenge, try that.

Play on a big map, against all the AI nations. The ones with crappy gods and/or scales will get eaten by the ones with appropriate gods/scales. I consistently lost against the (Normal!) AIs for the first few months I had the game, when I did this.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

You bought the game based on an unquantifiable strength they claimed in an advert? You got what was coming to you then.

I mean you never heard of reviews? Demos? Forum chatter?

You could have a game with the worst AI ever and it could still be advertised as having 'challenging' AI. It's meaningless. I'm not saying it isn't a ****ty thing to do, but I guess you learned a lesson here, huh?

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

Rich - the AI isn't so bad. It will certainly beat you for a fair while. And you can make it tougher and tougher by tilting the odds in its favour. I would definitely take the time to learn this game - there are lots of very enthusiastic people around here who only play single player.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

As AI goes, Dom3 is no worse than any other friggin' game on the market. Give it a rest. It kicked my *** plenty in the first few months and probably still would if I cranked it up to impossible and gave it favorable settings. I am no Dominions master but I am certainly not a novice or pushover either.

Hmmm... That sounded a little harsh.
I will add a smiley. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

What I'm going by is this thread. All you people who say the ai sucks and isn't worth it. I guess my post is bringing out the folks who didn't write before. I'll go back to getting into playing. It really looks like a lot of fun.

No, I don't think it's odd to complain after just doing the tutorial. Not after reading this thread.

And yes, I go by adverts by companies like Shrapnel. At least I did.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

The complaints in this thread are blown wildly out of proportion. Even if you get to the point where you can defeat multiple Impossible level AIs, you've probably gotten your money's worth at that point. Plus the multiplayer is there even if you choose not to partake.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

Nod nod, the AI will obliterate you for the first few weeks/months. After that you have enough experience to learn where its amazingly dumb but then many games are like that.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

Yeah, there are many strategies that the AI can't counter. Because multiplayer mostly revolves around these strategies, AI isn't a challenge if you use something meant to have a chance against other players. You'll get beaten by the AI a lot until you can figure out some effective counters against the AI hordes. If you start by reading advanced guides on how to beat the AI, the period where the AI is able to challenge you will be much shorter, of course.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

I you refrain from using mercs, thugs, supercombatants and battlefield enchantments
even normals AIs could give you a hard time. But why would you insist on playing
the AI? There are MP games for all skill levels. You've already found this forum,
so you are the right place to find a game.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

Why would you insist?

Because you can only play irregularly. Because you don't want to deal with diplomacy.

Because it's fun.

I tend to enjoy the lower levels, where there's less to deal with every turn. The first 2-3 years of a game. After that it usually becomes more work than I want to deal with. Less so in MP, but it still happens.

Luckily, those early years are where the AI does well. On impossible, it can throw huge decent armies at you from all sides. And you don't yet have the really abusive tactics to stop it cold. Thugs, but no real SCs (if you avoid SC pretender), battle magic is mostly evocations and the weaker buffs. Fighting the AI on something resembling it's own terms is not trivial.

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

That's such a good point Thejeff. In order to have a decent chance of imposing your game plan against Impossible AIs (which I like to play against most of the time), especially in early and midgame, you have to have great skill, knowledge, and maybe most importantly, not be unlucky.

If you start getting squeezed between 2 or more Impossible nations set to Aggressive (try setting them all to impossible and aggressive!) you're in a pretty scary position as they hurl army after army at all sides of your empire.

It's pretty good practice. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Well, I\'m through with the game
 

And you rather do not star beating AI before trying MP and learning MP tricks.

Now I would really want to get better AI after couple MP games. The worst thing in MP is that you get just one turn every 1-2 days. But sometimes you want to make 10 a day and sometimes you do not want to touch Dominions for a week. And you really don't have a choice when in MP.

Change everything.
 

I guess I could fit quite well into the SP crowd, having never played an MP game with anyone but my close friends. Online gaming simply takes way too much time to be of any interest to me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/yawn.gif

And I fully agree that Dominions 3 can be mindnumblingy boring as the battle against the AI drags on and on. The lack of diplomacy means that the only interaction is war to the very last drop of blood. The ability to "win by pantheon" would be much appreciated. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Yet here I am, in spite of knowing Dominions 2 down to every last bolt and screw, and I can't see Dominions 3 as anything but one of the best fantasy TBS ever. For me the best part of the game is the customisation. I can't think of a game that's easier to mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Creating your own perfect enemy, tailormade to take advantage of the AIs strengths, is almost too much fun. The last mod made the CBM look like a tiny footnote in comparison. Heck, it got so bad that I couldn't remember what I hadn't changed. So I started over. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif