Re: Short list and exploits
 

Wow that is some nice customer service in Finland.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

Happens when you work the late evening shift. Have to answer the phone. I'm off to home now.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

I pretty much agree with Baalz on this issue. It's a sometimes a fine line between an exploit and clever play, and only things that are CLEARLY abusive should be considered exploits. Among other things, how's a newb supposed to know their clever trick is considered an exploit?

My buddy K is blowing smoke out his butt on the MoD issue- i agree that it's possible to counter it sometimes, but all of his suggestions are pretty iffy. It's exploitive 'cause once it's been triggered there is no counter- the battle never ends and you all die.

But really, what else is there in DomIII that falls into this category? The Bogus script is a maybe- i personally consider it dirty pool, but it's defenders point out that you have to work to get it, and it's not in and of itself invincible, just a big advantage. Also, if your opponent is using it on you you have the opportunity to get it from him the same way he got it from Bogus. The locker flood would be BS for sure, but how's that work, do you do it every turn? If so the perpetrator needs psych help.

Are there others?

I'd also like to second kasnavada's point, a single instance of this should not be grounds for a lynch mob, it could easily be a mistake or ignorance. Continued use is another matter.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

That's an exploit of the message system which can be added to the bug list so that total messages sent to the same player by any single player be capped at e.g. eight. The removal of ability to forge items is only temporary and unless the opponent can keep flooding you with 50 slave collars per turn, he hasn't accomplished much except waste blood slaves that could have been used more productively.

Not defending this practice, it's abuse through and through, but for some reason I get the impression that people seem to regard as if it was a permanent state of affairs once it was done.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

In fact it's a totally ridiculous exploit : the victim will just send back the 50 slave collars, and it's the bad guy who will be unable to forge the next turn (may end in ping pong).

Re: Short list and exploits
 

Wiki says :
"In the realm of online games, an exploit is usually a software bug, hack or bot that contributes to the user's prosperity in a manner not intended by the developers."

A bug does not work as intended. Definition of a bug :
"A software bug (or just bug) is an error, flaw, mistake, undocumented feature, failure, or fault in a computer program that prevents it from behaving as intended (e.g., producing an incorrect result)."

Therefore, using that combo is an exploit. Not much more to be said, unless you wish to recreate the meaning of the english words.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

I could care less what "wiki" says. If both players have access to it and it is not game stopping, what separates it from a game feature? Only your opinion.

P.S. Tuidjy I didn't realize you were in a game where this is such a heated topic. Next time you will do better to take your anger out on the person in your game instead of me, because when it comes to your insults, I am the CEO of IDGAF.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

Well, JK says that Domes of the same type don't add up(the 80% is checked until it drops, then the next 80%, etc), and each separate kind of dome is checked separately (Air, then Frost, then forest, etc. and I don't know the order). So with a big enough gem investment you can knock down all a province's domes. JK or KO can chime in here, if they wish.

But, if you need someone to hold your hand, here is a foolproof way to beat the situation described above.

Assuming the enemy is patrolling his home province with mages to cast MoD, then:

Turn 1
1. Attack the province with a force big enough to set off the AI's choice to cast gem spells. Set them on Retreat, if you want. The enemy mages Return home, by whatever means they have.

2. Send in a Stealthed SC/SCs/thugs/armies who can beat the province defense and whatever patrolling armies are left after the mages leave. This battle happens after the first because it gets caught by PD and patrols. You take the outer province.

Turn 2.

3. Move in a mage/mages who can cast MoD on turn 1 of the battle. Since the defender gets the first round of actions, then they can't ever use it against you if they try to Break Siege.

Dominion them out, or just invade with a small enough force to make them retreat when you knock down the door (its their home province, so they have nowhere to Return).

If he is not patrolling his capital, then switch to turn 2's instructions, or just send in Assassin and kill his mages that way.

-----------
Dominions is complex enough that there are never "perfect strategies." YOU might not be able to beat an enemy's strategy because of lack of mages with the right kinds of magic, units, or research, but it doesn't mean it can't be done.

By the late-game, people should be diversified enough in magic that any tactic is available, if you have enough research. Figuring out what your enemy is using and preparing for it is exactly what this game is about, as well as choosing the right research for your opponents.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

I, as a host, would leave it up to the players to decide what's fair use and what isn't. Which should more or less coincide with the general consensus. Pure democracy... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Short list and exploits
 

As long as it's spelled out ahead of time.

Anything else leads to assumption clash and ruined games.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

> Well, JK says that Domes of the same type don't add up(the 80% is checked until
> it drops, then the next 80%, etc),

Air domes stack. Check it yourself. It took me 13 turns of casting 10 seeker
arrows per turn to crack 3 stacked air domes. You have to break all of them
at once, or they do not break. If Tangra, Athena and Jesus came together to tell
me otherwise, I would show them my test game, and politely ask them to
help Illwinter debug the check mechanism if it is not working as designed.

> But, if you need someone to hold your hand, here is a foolproof way to beat
> the situation described above. [Mediocre plan full of unwarranted assumptions]

Why on earth would anyone have mages scripted to retreat/return patrolling his
home province?! And why do you think that MoD is the only tactic that he knows.
Why on earth would his enemy have free run of the lands around it? Do you
realize that your plan assumes that you have total and utter superiority, i.e.
the war is already won?

And have you never heard that back in Dominions II, when mages would follow the
script and burn gems even against a ghost ride, players had already devised
systems in which enchantments combos would be performed by different mages, in as
many as three battles per turn? No mage will recast an active enchantment.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

Wow! I've never tried to stack domes before, I always just assumed that only one dome of each type could exist on a province. How do you see your active domes in the province? With 3 different domes, four sites, a temple lab & castle, it runs out of display space. Do you get a seperate icon for each air dome?

EXPLOIT, EXPLOIT!!!11!1!! Sorry, that's a joke, at least the additional emphasis is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But it might not be WAD.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

Yes, you get a separate icon.
Yes, you run out of space, and it looks bad.
Yes, now that JK has stated how it should work, it does look like an exploit.

[censored]. I have air domes stacked three deep in three provinces in DangerPudding.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

I don't think Air Domes stack. Send me a saved game that proves me wrong please.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

I also would not attack JK or KO for game bugs or lost functionality... ahemm #startspell ahemm.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Seriously all complex programs have bugs, that's why beta testers exist. Some beta testers were good which found and reported bugs... others not so good. Today it still baffles me why Gandalf who was a beta tester never tested all the map edit commands he so frequently used.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

Here's a snapshot. I will send you the file and password in private message,
as long as you promise not to talk to the guys in DangerPudding.

I trust you. :-)

Re: Short list and exploits
 

Because you said:

So yeh, now it just sounds like you are complaining for the sake of complaining. Either its a non-home castle protected by domes and they can't come back next turn, or its a home province protected by domes and they are patrolling it. Those are the only two situations where you are forced into an unfair situation with a MoD and a battlefield spell, and I've outlined tactics to beat them. Any other situation where someone has good mages casting big spells can be handled with any number of other tactics like killing the mages, getting them in melee before they can cast, or casting the spell first.

This whole exchange just reinforces my opinion that the people who cry exploit are just bitter about some loss in a previous game. I know one player whom I played against who started a campaign to stop every good tactic I used by calling it an exploit.

It makes me sad.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

Because you said:

So yeh, now it just sounds like you are complaining for the sake of complaining. Either its a non-home castle protected by domes and they can't come back next turn, or its a home province protected by domes and they are patrolling it. Those are the only two situations where you are forced into an unfair situation with a MoD and a battlefield spell, and I've outlined tactics to beat them. Any other situation where someone has good mages casting big spells can be handled with any number of other tactics like killing the mages, getting them in melee before they can cast, or casting the spell first.

This whole exchange just reinforces my opinion that the people who cry exploit are just bitter about some loss in a previous game. I know one player whom I played against who started a campaign to stop every good tactic I used by calling it an exploit.

It makes me sad.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

Except that this particular combo is on a bug list... neither spell should go on. That point are once again forgotten by those that do not think it's an exploit. Obviously because they do not even know what an exploit is.

The very definition of an exploit is using something that doesn't work as intended, and the very definition of a bug is that it doesn't work as intended. It is a bug -> using that combo is an exploit. No matter what counters you have. That's basically it.

And please stop the "whining" argumentation copied straight from eve online forums... I don't really think those forum should have the kind of "ambiance" they have there. It would basically kill Dominions.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

Buddy, it's been a long time since I've had a loss. And the only time someone
used a MoD on me, I was lucky enough to be immune to the BE he went with.

You have outlined tactics to beat an one-trick, already defeated pony. Why do
you assume that the mages in the NON-home, NON-domed province will be using the
same tactics as the mages in domed capital.

But this is all theoretical bull. It seems that your suggestion for beating MoD
is "cast it first". When the opponent is acting first, make sure that you fake
him the first time. This assumes that he is stupid enough to retreat the forces
patrolling his capital (as opposed to being immune to his own BE). It also
assumes that he is too dumb to have a second set of mages scripted to cast the
exploit. They would not cast it the first time because it will be already on,
and a fake that lasts five turns and still draws gems is a hell of a fake.

Anyway, I am officially done with this stupid discussion. I will not join games
where this exploit is not banned, and as clearly there are some people who do not
consider it an exploit, I will ask the host to state it before hand. I will also
no longer discuss exploits, because there is no point. I just hope that the
developers make it so that when a mage leaves the battlefield, the enchantment
goes "pfft".

Re: Short list and exploits
 

If anyone thinks this they can have their way on this forum by trying to browbeat others, they have another think coming. If necessary, I have absolutely no compunctions about laying into people and forcibly shutting this discussion down if it gets out of hand and I'll flat out state beforehand that if it comes down to that, I will be indiscriminatingly brutal to all sides who make trouble.

The discussion has fortunately calmed down a bit from yesterday evening, but it still looks like feelings are running a bit high.

Personally, I find it hard to disagree with the definitions kasnavada presented in the previous post.

At the same time, it is quite clear that not all exploits are equal. As stated, MoD+BF Enchantment is one of the most egregious ones and quickmarching slow units due to the movement bug is another one I personally find offensive. Same with sneaking non-stealthy troops out of castles, but it's not available to everyone. Still annoying.

I see no point in flaming people for holding those opinions because they can be quite solidly backed up with reasoning. No need to flame people who don't give as much of a damn about them either, but it's also clear that these two viewpoints in the same MP game can lead to quite a clash.

I should also add a thank you for bringing the stacking domes issue to my attention. Onto the shortlist it goes...

Re: Short list and exploits
 

As it is the quasi unique huge issue, I wonder if Mist of Deception is a so usefull spell that it should remain in the game without its bug fixed.

I mean why not, if mages retreat/death doesn't end the mist in the next patch, just removing this spell untill it's fixed ?

There are plenty of air battle summons that can replace it for people who really use MoD to summon chaff (if they exist ; I wonder if someone would really use this spell without the mist bug, actually even without a BE the never ending mist look only usefull for some abuses : if it's not exploiting a nasty combo with a BE it's exploiting the turn 50/75 auto-rout, and it may be an as nasty trick if you cut retreat).

Re: Short list and exploits
 

Air magic only has two good battlefield spells, which are MoD and Fog Warriors. Considering that Air magic is the weakest of all the magics considering its very high casting requirements and fatigue, its lack of AoE spells, and difficulty in crafting boosters, then removing MoD is just nerfing an already weak Path.

I wouldn't play an Air nation if MoD was gone. Period.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

Are you joking? Thunderstrike spam is awesomely powerful. Air is THE combat magic.

Plus i consider "storm", "wrath from sky","fend arrows" and "wind guide" very good battlefield spells. On par, if not better, than water, fire or earth battlefield spells.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

I call bull on this. Arrow fend, mass flight, and wrathful skies are all very good spells in several situations. Lighting is the only consistent, easy to access AN damage. Air magic gives you access to flying items - *huge*....seeking arrows - *huge*. I've *never* used MoD and find air power to be considerable.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

One of the problems with Air is that there's little synergy.

Air lets you boost archery and shut it down with storm.

Mass Flight can be great, but again storm shuts it down.

To use Storm Power to boost your air magic, you need a Storm.

Which shuts down archery and flight and cripples your precision.

Particularly frustrating since several of the Air nations are also archer heavy nations, Caelum and Man.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

I feel storm should be a water spell(maybe mixed with air)... especially since you cannot have a storm without rain/water.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

I believe there is a water version as well right?

Re: Short list and exploits
 

You talking about "rain", Foodstamp?

Re: Short list and exploits
 

That's true. But still, it is a great great combat magic. The best one in my book.

Thunderstrike is better than falling frost or fire clouds, it is more versatile than blade winds (Which wont do jack on armored units). Air mages get more precision, which is great, and air mages also can cast mistform for example to protect them from strafing arrows. Coupled with a few great early combat buffs (like wind guide, arrow fend) and a few good battle enchants (like wrathful skies), plus the fact it is AN, make it a great artillery school of magic.

Plus it's the second best one, after astral, for thugs. Mirror image and mistform are 2 very good spells as well.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

Yup, if I remember correctly it works the same and only costs 1 water gem? I don't have the game/manual in front of me so I am working by memory.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

I find air magic useful to the extreme for all the reasons already mentioned in the above posts. However, I want to add one thing I think is the most important: Cloud Trapeze.
Everyone knows the importance of having right commanders in right place in right time. Cloud trapeze is almost like having those commanders all over the map, all the time. In addition, when making big assaults, nothing beats trapezing thugs.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

It's a different effect i think. Rain makes fire ends faster, make fire spell more fatiguing and a couple other things. It does not affect flying units as far as i remember, and im absolutely sure it does not affect "summon storm power" or the power effect of orb lighting and other "spell is stronger during storm" spells.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

Gotcha.

"Rain" is a shower, "Storm" is an all out storm. Does Storm have the effects of Rain coupled with it's own effects, or does it not have the bonus against fire/fire spells?

Re: Short list and exploits
 

dont have the rulebook close, but i think storm is just an electrical storm (So no rain and no fatigue for fire spells and so)

Re: Short list and exploits
 

Same here. Well, I think I may have used it once, but didn't find it that awesome a spell to start with. Fog warriors is an awesome spell, though. As are lots of other things from Air.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

The one thing air does well at all is Air Shield and Mistform. Thats two spells.

Everything else Air does costs gems, and Air gems are not in my experience a common gem type. For example, building both boosters costs 50 gems and requires A4. Cloud Trapeze, Seeking Arrows, Storm, Arrow Fend, Wind Guide, Wrath of God, and almost every other good Air magic costs gems, and when you factor in the price of making boosters against the number of gems you use for rituals, the raw amount of Air magic you use it very small compared to others. I mean, with Fire I can throw some Fever Fetishes on Scouts and cast Flaming Arrows every battle on top of the fact that I don't have to do anything crazy to get a spell booster (Phoenix Power, in this case). Water can do the same with with sea trolls, Astral with Clams, and Earth with Blood Stones.

Thunderstrike is an OK spell, but it has a small area of effect and your mages fatigue out quickly. People who sing its praises tend to say things like "have you ever seen fifteen mages spamming Thunderstrike?" Yes, but fifteen mages apamming any of the good Evocations is impressive. Air mages are just doing it at a higher fatigue price with fewer kills.

Wrathful Skies is only impressive when you have a small army and they have a small army. Against big armies, I'll take any of the other battlefield destroying spells.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

You can have a windstorm without any water.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

Air magic users definitely do not need to do anything crazy to get their spell booster (summon storm power). Just give Staff of Storms for every mage heavy army you have and you're done. Storm is also a very useful spell in itself and worth one air gem per battle, which is pretty equal to the benefit you get from having a fever fetish/sea troll/clam/blood stone with your army.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

Nothing crazy?

Well, it's certainly possible. Requires Construction 6 and a A4 mage to get Staff of Storms, or similar levels for the Storm spell (Don't remember offhand). Compared to the other path boosters, which mostly take only Conjuration 3 and 2 or level in the path.
(Note that's a native A4 mage, since the Air booster items are also A4)

Beyond that, Storm shuts down Flight and archery, which are generally strengths of the Air nations.
Storm is a situationally useful spell. It's great when you're enemy is relying on archers and/or fliers and you're not. Disastrous when it's the other way around.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

I admit earth & fire booster spells are better than air booster spell but water & nature booster spells certainly are not. Astral booster spell is great if you have a lot of mages on the battlefield, otherwise it sucks.

About the tangle between storm/flight/archery: air magic does not equal Caelum, although the birdmen certainly are powerful in it. Nations like Vanheim, Fomoria & Tir na Nog are top notch air users as well and they don't have any of that flight/archery nonsense.

Anyway, I find this discussion about air magic interesting and will start own thread for it soonishly. I will write my own thoughts into guide of sorts and hopefully the discussion will continue there.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

I was also thinking MA Man for archery. And even without recruitable fliers, the flight spells are all air, including Mass Flight. And the flying boots, quite useful for thugs.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

I wasn't asking "is air magic weak or good ?" but "is MoD such a key spell for air mages that it must stay available in its current state ?".

I may add some questions :

- is using MoD without a dammage BE, but with a retreating caster, an exploit or not ?

If you cast MoD and your mage isn't killed on the battlefield, you are completely sure to rout the opponent after a 50 rounds long fight (and if he use a communion with masters staying on the field, you will also probably kill all the slaves with fatigue -and as well any troop with natural exhaustion, like clockwork horrors or turtlemen will be slain by such a long fight-). The only exception may be : if you attack someone who cast MoD himself (as auto-rout happen before to the attacking side iirc).

- is using MoD without a retreating caster an exploit or not ?

If the caster is not slain but routed with his army (or alone after a failed morale check), MoD seem to continue to work exactly like described above. MoD + a low morale army can replace scripted retreat (and be worse, if using casters and units not scripted to retreat is considered a sufficient excuse to allow the famous MoD + BE combo).


IMO, MoD shouldn't be used at all before a fix.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

Like I said, considering that Air is the weakest path, don't expect anyone to play an Air nation if you deny them one of their only good late-game spells.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

But there are many ways to abus it...

Unquenched Sword [are there any other items with smth also so nasty] + MoD + Armor of Virtue or Ritual of Returning

Mages casting BE + MoD + Vortex of Returning


Maybe with all that attention now we will get some things fixed in next patch http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Short list and exploits
 

Considering the incredible difficulty in just casting it, I don't think it gets abused as often as people think.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

What exactly are you smoking and how illegal is it where you live, K? I have never before this heard Air magic characterized as the weakest path. Fire and Water are both weaker from what I've seen, though both have their useful sides, but Air has all kinds of uses all around, which makes it very versatile.

That post of yours makes you sound like one of the people who just abuses the crap out of MoD and is complaining at the prospect of having his toy taken away.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

Edi!

Re: Short list and exploits
 

Edi. Edi! EDI! EDI!!!

Sorry, but Edi is 100% correct.

The claim that Air magic is a weak path is retarded.
MoD, which guarantees a win if you manage to retreat whoever cast it, is abusive.
The claim that MoD is the spell that makes Air magic worth it is beyond retarded.
People who protect abusive exploits with retarded arguments deserve what they get.

Re: Short list and exploits
 

Your both way too obsessed and "personally" involved with this issue to the point that you disrespect others.

if you are going to threaten people with public warnings about forum behavior, you should probably lead by example.