Re: OT - \"forbidden weapon\" question
 

It sounds like this: I'm the painter, I see it so. Usually given than someone says that in reality something doesn't look like what was drawn. Also quite usable for writers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
As for your mod, you asked for opinions. If you meant from the beginning that something-or-other was never meant to be in your mod, it would be better if you would list these from the beginning.
And about no place for this discussion - possibly you would kindly list THE place for it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OT - \"forbidden weapon\" question
 

I don't suppose we could give the Woodsman/Huntsman troop a short-ranged armor-piercing bow, could we?
I guess the idea would be to give Man a way of offsetting the weaknesses of the longbowmen that would require the player to think for them to be useful. You could waylay expensive troops so that your longbowmen on the battle lines wouldn't have to deal with them, or you could put them up close to take out enemy heavies, hopefully without dying in the process.

Re: OT - \"forbidden weapon\" question
 

bogarus needs another sacred, their current sacred can be used in unique ways but you need a lot of them, and on the battle field they are just cannon fodder

Re: OT - \"forbidden weapon\" question
 

The weaknesses of the longbowmen????
The weaknesses of the longbowmen????

plz ignore sawyer

Re: OT - \"forbidden weapon\" question
 

Longbowmen do have weaknesses. Pythian infantry kick the crap out of them for instance.

Re: OT - \"forbidden weapon\" question
 

sure but to give a nation with the strongest archery in the game even stronger archery options is kinda strange.

Re: OT - \"forbidden weapon\" question
 

Meh. Archery isn't going to win any games. Make the archers exorbitant and give them a very short range so that alone they'll only be able to get one shot on their targets before they're engaged in melee, and make them suck at melee.
As much as I love longbowmen they're near-powerless against heavy troops until you research and empower up to flaming arrows. It would be interesting to see what happens when we give Man a hard-to-use solution to this.

Maybe it's not a good idea, but I'd like to see it play out, I guess.

Re: OT - \"forbidden weapon\" question
 

BTW, "short-range AP bow" would be absolutly no help against tower shields... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
On Bogarus - I've heard that currently MA factions are discussed. For Bogarus I made special mod splitting this nation into 2, which can be downloaded. However, it's not finished & currently has no graphics. Will probably be updated soon & I will mention some of its ideas here when the discussion will move to LA factions.

Re: OT - \"forbidden weapon\" question
 

MA Arcoscephale
Slingers based on Rhodes?
Archers based on cretans?

MA Mictlan
Recruitable atlatl (double range jav) armed infantry
Serpent/snake warrior sacreds? With poison res obviously

MA Eriu
Firbolg Fian – heroic elite firbolg with forest survival, standard (3), javs/melee
Gallowglass – foreign humans with axe + heavyish armour
Milisian kern – armed with darts (lighter javs with longer range)

MA Man
Forester recruitable – hatchet, dagger, shortbow, medium armour, forest survival, patrolbonus 1, stealth, animal awe 0/1 (also give animal awe to forester leader). Backstory is that they were formed to protect Man from invaders, brigands, rampaging animals and beasts, as well as raid the enemy to pre-empt attacks. A real all-rounder with no great strength or weakness.
Possibly wolfhounds? Non stealthy, patrolbonus 1, +1 supply, forestsurvival, similar stats to wolf. Could be summoned by a commander, recruitable, or a nature summon.

MA Marignon
Justicar – religious guards/police with fire res, good armour, mace + shield (sacred or not?) wear robes of their religious order over their armour

MA Machaka
Cheaper sacred troop? Leopard / Hyena warrior cults might be interesting, but anything sacred would certainly have to be related to spiders

MA Caelum
A hybrid missile / melee troop of some sort – might actually be used well by AI if given ammo of 2 or 3 – will fire off all ammo then attack

MA Ulm
Arbalest+tower shield ‘pavise’ unit?
Ulmish ‘Militia’ – very different from most militia, expected to hold off enemies until the slow moving regular Ulmish forces can arrive, so have to be less crap. Medium armour and halberds – even have fort def bonus of 1. All for a low gold price and (relative to other ulmish) low resources too.



EA Tirnanog
Attacotti berserker – A primitive tribe of naked berserk cannibals released in battle by the tuatha – they are like gladiators in that they are usable for only one battle?
Chariot – light/small, driver+jav chucker, not a trampler?



Spell ideas


A fireball that when it lands summons a small fire elemental – could be an excellent spell for abysia

Marignon – a holy/fire advanced version of bonds of fire – trial of fire, test of faith etc – can also throw in a panic effect or fear effect for extra synergy

W/D – Chilling bolt – frost bolt + fear effect, high prec

Spells that immobilise + cloud effects. You could have bonds of fire + sulfur cloud, tangle vines + leeching darkness (could be a great one for pangaea)


Earth gem using teleport spell – Agartha?

Battlefield wide resist elements – TC?

Re: OT - \"forbidden weapon\" question
 

I made this for EA Mictlan, but maybe it would fit MA too. A were jaguar (commander). I gave him the ability to shapechange at will into a jaguar. The description: "Some Jaguar Warriors remain forever in their half-jaguar form and loose their ability to turn back to human form. These rare warriors are taken to the temple and trained as priests and leaders to command the other Jaguar Warriors. They may shapechange at will into a true jaguar, and use this ability when they need to be stealthy."

Re: Questions
 

Unfortunately slings have crap stats in Dom3. So while Greeks certainly had very effective slingers, in game terms these would have to have very high precision to compensate, which in turn would require them to be very costly for missilers (or they'll have to have somewhat better slings?). They can have shields, however... Elite archers should probably be capital only. Maybe it would be better to make something like RTW "heavy peltasts" which could actually hold their own in melee?
Atlatl would be fine, especially if they have more ammo also. And why do you not like Crocodiles (snake themed sacreds are present in C'tis, after all)?
Honestly I don't like the latter two. And why don't you want to include chariots here instead of EA???
They should be a little better than wolf - they are selected as wolf-hunters, after all... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
That's excellent! While cloud+immobilisation would probably be too much. Unless it's for high level?
Fine idea, but probably would have to be of somewhat higher level than normal Teleport...
Probably Ulm too?
This I think a neat idea.
Another thought on MA Mictlan (probably C'tis as well) - is a spell which releases an arrow & then summons a snake at the point of contact possible? With a low-level making 1 arrow-snake & high-level many, similar to Vine Arrow/Storm of Thorns?

Re: Questions
 

I think I'd pay a bit more gold for slingers with high prec and a few other stat boosts. Obviously they'd be a niche unit - anti low prot troops. They could deal slightly more damage with their slings, reflecting either increased accuracy or better quality of stones. Another major advantage would be 2 mapmove, since they aren't 'militia'.

I suggest snake themed sacreds because MA Mictlan is based around flying snakes and has a serpent sacred national summon. Crocodiles just don't seem to come into it.

Because chariots were present in the early history of Irish warfare and in Dom3 are generally an EA thing.

Dogs used to hunt wolves would obviously outnumber them. They were also used to hunt bears.

TC are masters of the elements. Ulm aren't even close to that.

Probably possible and a nice idea. I tink I'd make it a poison arrow rather than a tangle arrow though.

Re: Questions
 

Professional slingers used lead (or even sometimes bronze) bullets made in a form. Description may mention this as a justification... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif 2 mapmove would be certainly very useful, I've forgot about it.
Possibly. But crocodile-skin armor was certainly used in Mesoamerica. And even poor amphibian unit would be a strategic advantage (even if non-sacred). While considering snakes... Possibly poison protection would be sinergetic with sacred Toads - but it would have to be 100% & this could be too good..
Well, Ireland is Eriu. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And chariots remained there almost until 16th century iirc. Here it would represent more archaic nature of their army which is compensated by magic & inborn high quality of Tuatha/Sidhe warriors. While in EA they would be redundant - Sidhe surely have no problem with most human infantry (& charioters wouldn't get to use their higher weapon abilties, except against other chariots)!
Well, that's not the case with wolfhounds & other such kinds of dog. They are specialized to be better than wolf 1-on-1 (for wolves, being no fools, will just make strategic retreat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif if presented with too much dogs), Irish wolfhounds at least are also faster than wolves on the run - for the same reason. They are however, less clever & have somewhat worse health as their life presents more protection from the elements - but this is represented by them having no stealth, but patrolling instead... I wouldn't probably give them supply, but it certainly has a nice synergy with massed archers... At the same time hounds used against bears were used just to draw their attention from the hunter - completely different specialization. In Russian, they were even named differently than above-mentioned type though in English they are both "hounds". Another type of dogs sometimes used to fight bears (but only after bear was already caught) was bulldog-type - still another specialization! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Certainly. But as their MA theme is anti-magic, they could get such specialized thing. Probably with Holy requirement? And they sure as hell need this much more than Tien Chi! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Yes, of course snake-themed arrow should be poisonous rather than entangling! I just used an example to illustrate having two kinds of such a spell with different levels. Sorry if misunderstanding occurred.

Another thought: I personally find an idea that Vans or Tuatha would worship a human Pretender somewhat illogical. It would probably be good to give such races Rainbow-type Pretenders from their own kind. Something similar to this is made with C'tis having Saurolich, and giant-types having their own mage-kings as Pretanders. Note that I don't want such Pretenders to be SCs - just mages of appropriate races, with primal paths appropriate to them, human size & racial bonuses... It's OK if they will be more costly than other Rainbows - they just need to be here.

Re: Questions
 

Tirnanog is as much ireland as Eriu is. I don't see how they're redundant in EA. One of the tuatha/sidhe heroes uses a chariot, for example. Additionally I'm not sure I'd even make them tramplers, given that all descriptions I've read of celtic chariots stress they were fairly light and more of a rapid deployment/ranged skirmish troop than a scythed trampler.

I don't think that the century in which weapons were used is important, more where they fit in the general military evolution of the source nation. Dom3 puts greek hoplites and plate armoured germanic knights in the same era after all. But again, this isn't the thread to discuss that.


I'm not doing anything with pretenders.

Re: Questions
 

And where is the thread to discuss, pray tell, or mighty one? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
As for scythed chariots - they were actually used only in one region, & this was Persia at about 4th century BC, i.e., after Greek (& Egyptian) phalanxes became problem. Hellenistic states sometimes used them for the same reason, but after their subjugation by Rome the problem itself disappeared as Romans didn't use phalanxes. Though I had heard that Britts used such, but source was probably mistaken... At the same time the game uses archer chariots (modelled after Egyptian/Hettite) as tramplers.
And the general military evolution of the source nation included chariots almost throughout history. They certainly didn't disappear by historical times! I am aware that Cu Chulain uses chariot in EA, but how much is it needed by this nation?

Re: Questions
 

As far as we know, Irish chariots were used in the following manner:

Move onto the field with driver and warrior.

Warrior throws some spears and hops off the chariot.

Chariot moves off the field.

Warrior kills people in teh phace.

Warrior gets in trouble.

Chariot picks him up.

Warrior moves off the field to rest, reload, whatever.

Rinse, repeat.

Here is a great article concerning chariot warfare written by one of our historians at WFGs:

Chariots in Warfare and Entertainment

Feel free to use any of the articles as a reference for your mod.

Re: Questions
 

Mighty one? I don't think I'm being unreasonable here. This thread is for recruit / spell suggestions for a mod I'm making. If you want a thread to discuss what centuries the different eras in dom3 cover or the merits of the quarterstaff as a melee weapon make it yourself.

Good point. I guess all chariots should be tramplers, though clearly some will suck at it due to low prot/hp.

Why does Eriu need a chariot more than Tirnanog?

I'll think about doing a firbolg one for Eriu and a Sidhe/Tuatha one for Tir, but I'm not really sold that they belong in MA.

Re: Content for Ulm
 

While general resistance to elements isn't really that good fit, Earth spell to counter lightning would be nice. The two-handed Iron Rod already conveys lightning immunity. Battlefield-wide lightning resistance coupled with some other useful effect would fit Ulm well, IMO. Battlefield-wide Legions of Steel or Strength of Giants and 50% or 75% lightning resistance would be pretty nifty.

Re: Content for Ulm
 

Good idea endo.

I was thinking about a mounted missile unit for MA Ulm too. Probably a mounted crossbow guy who can also melee a bit.

Re: Content for Ulm
 

I sort of had an idea for LA Jomon since they don't seem to be getting a whole lot of attention. For instance, most Ashigaru used not only they Yari, but the Katana and Naginata as well, so you could add Ashigaru units using these weapons, possibly toning town the quality of the Ashigaru katanas if needed.

As a bit of incentive for buying samurai swordsmen as opposed to just samurai archers, I was thinking of adding different types of Samurai, O-Ban and Aka-Oni Samurai that feature an extra special attack loosely based on certain sword technique or schools. These would probably be weapons usable only once per battle. Not many professional soldiers are likely to fall for the same technique twice in a row.

I'm not sure how one-shot weapons like Lances work entirely though. For instance, if a one-shot weapon carries a penalty to defense, would the wielder still have the defense penalty once that weapon has been used for the battle, or would the penalty go away once it has been used?

If the latter is true, we could try having a samurai use a Battōjutsu technique to draw his sword and make a cut in a single fluid motion. This would be represented as a high damage, high att, one-shot strike that carries a penalty to defense as, since the sword is still in the scabbard before he attacks, he has nothing to parry an incoming attack with.


I also had the idea of adding several unique and multi-heroes already in possession of a high quality magic weapon or that use a special technique unique to them or their school. For example, I had in mind a couple of unique Ninja heroes. One is an extremely skilled assassin that had come across an evil sword forged by a demon called Muramasa. The assassin has no hand slots, so he cannot use any weapons other than the sword. The sword is also incredibly bloodthirsty and the ninja has the effect of casting "Berserkers" on himself at the start of the battle when the sword is drawn. This way, during an assassination attempt, the ninja MUST either kill his target or die. Fortunately, due to it's voracious thirst for blood and extreme quality of workmanship, the Muramasa Blade also has the Armor Piercing and Heart Finding qualities.

Re: Content for Ulm
 

It is possible to add light lance-like bonus damage to first attack to any weapon via modding. Katana with little extra damage for the first strike wouldn't be hard to do, but since the damage is based on APs it might be too small of a bonus to form the basis of an entirely new unit.

Re: Questions + some OT
 

And how do you name the situation when you doesn't allow arguments in support of an opposite point of view? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Or do you prefer just trading points of view without any logical arguments? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I understand that you are going to make most work at the end, but using this as end-all-be-all argument is precisely the tendency I said about earlier.
Yes, certainly.
They have not so good infantry as Tirnanog & have stronger opponents due to better armor & appearance of heavy cavalry, of course!
And why not? As I've said, Irish armies were somewhat archaic all the time. And Arcoscephale, for example, has no cavalry until LA, which is also adjudicated as their military being somewhat archaic. Also, Eriu's difficult history together with isolation would be quite able to conservate similar archaism (just like in real history! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ).
Fine. I'm not that good in balancing possibly, but I can see that armor-negating lightning could be the main problem for heavy Ulmits.
Thanks a lot, Foodstamp. I have some sources as well, but they are in Russian for the most part..
Unfortunately, the article enforces a mistaken impression about "most other chariot users" using chariots as "charging weapon" - but is quite correct about the source of Caesar's description.. If you want, I can compile/translate something for your site. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Questions + some OT
 

I do elaborate on my views when it's appropriate and I'm happy for there to be discussion in this thread which is relevant and moves things forward. The incentive to make suggestions is that if I like them I will almost certainly put them into the mod. You then get to use the mod and hey, your cool idea is right there in the game. Everyone wins. I can certainly be brought around to a different point of view. A suggestion I had doubts about initially could be argued for in such a way that I 'see the light'.

That kind of discussion is fine. Ultimately though, I don't need to justify myself. I can and usually will, but if I don't the end result is the same - I make what I like. If this were a team effort things would be different, but it isn't. I'm not going to 'make most work at end'; barring something unforseen I'm going to be doing all of it.


Regarding chariots: The light missile chariot in question would in no way be a counter to heavy infantry or cavalry. If anything it would be far more effective in EA. I don't really see how Eriu's more expensive/elite infantry has anything to do with it either. I see chariot use as more of an early irish/celtic/sidhe thing, with Eriu modernising somewhat (though not much). I take the point that Eriu are still rather backward though.

S_M: I'm not doing heroes or multiheroes. I'm also focusing on MA at the moment. I have a few ideas for LA Jomon. A missile weapon Ashigaru might be interesting.

Re: Questions + some OT
 

Wrana,

We are always looking for fan submitted material. Feel free to submit something to me at jshores (at) wildfiregames (dot) com. If it is quality work, I will make sure it gets posted in the appropriate section http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: Questions + some OT
 

To Sombre:
I see. BTW, was Conceptual Balance a cooperative one?
Light chariot can work against haevy infantry - in _almost_ the same way as heavy cav - which was why I mentioned the latter. And elite infantry makes the need for such units less because it can crush non-elite infantry troops on their own. A real-life example could be Greeks & Romans which had weak cavalry with one of the reasons being that their heavy infantry could beat almost anybody who hadn't similar one. When Hellenistic states started to war against each other, though, they started to seek counter-measures against such infantry - using ballistas, heavy cavalry (cataphraktes), scythed chariots and elephantes. I see Sidhe of Tirnanog as being in similar situation - initially their infantry can beat most opponents on their own (for their neighbors and main opponents are Fomors and probably Marverni).
Pity about heroes - I get an idea for MA (most probably) Arcoscephales - an Athlete - sacred low-Leadership commander with high stats, armed with cestes (2h, 2 att, otherwise similar to Gloves of Gladiators, but non-magical) + koppo, with background of an aristocrat trained from childhood to take part in sacred games (such as Olympic ones) and going to use gained skills in war.. It can be used as recruitable commander (you didn't mean them also?) or even as troop, but the latter seems wrong for me.

To Foodstamp: thanks, I'll send something in a week possibly.

Re: Questions + some OT
 

Any progress? It got on 2nd page...

Wrana:
CBM is QM's project. So he made all decisions but well, he was accepting ideas. Sombre is accepting ideas too, but it is up to him if he takes any of them. And when that mod is complete it may be implemented as a part of CBM, like WH was.

But here comes my idea:
TREELORDS!

Today my blind treelord won with Abomination of Desolation. So I realised they are not so bad. So my idea is to make them immobile SC stoppers. Something to give nature nations a way to defend.

I would like to see about 5 levels of treelors, at 10N, 20N, 30N, 40N, 50N [all non-unique] + couple unique ones at 50-75N. Unique ones could be those that we have now but with really big buffs. Maybe with ability to use Faery Trod for free, while still being immobile...
All of them would need a lot of HP, big regen, nice reinvigoration, decent MR. On higher levels they could also get other magic picks [e.x. Swamp Treelord with water and death].
The only problem is that you wouldn't be able to set them to patrol outside fort. I guess there is no way to go around that, so price for immobiles should also reflect that.

Re: Questions + some OT
 

You could always put them in provinces where there is no fort--or tear down the fort...

Re: Questions + some OT
 

This mod is on hold simply due to my lack of time.

It's behind Lizardmen and other stuff in terms of priority so sorry to let anyone down but I wouldn't go holding your breath for it.