Re: Lords of Civilization
 

I'm not sure I agree from the standpoint that I prefer a more diverse game. Exact balance in the way of making the exact same strategies available to all nations is boring.

This is what bothered me with tartarians, that come end game everyone will rush to spam them.

As for super SCs available to Hinom - the nation is very powerful that's evident but it has its weaknesses. And most important, in an MP game sometimes being too strong is a disadvantage (the gang up on the leader syndrome).

Bottom line, I opt for more diversity in the gameplay even if some nations get situationally stronger than others.

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

But when you take a look there is really very limited amount of SCs available. And most of them are not available for most of the races. Just few nations have thugs and national SCs, which is really big factor later. And usually nations with strong magic get access to good SCs, making their advantage even bigger.

That B9 Hinnom ones are really very powerful. And they are given to a race that is probably one of the strongest in EA now. And access to them isn't extremely hard for them, while other ones tend to be harder to get.

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

Actually, I fear mp balance has been forgoten for this patch.

The new nations (at least the EA and MA ones) seem to have been balanced against Amos angels, or I don't know what, not (most) other vanilla nations. If they are not rushed in the very first turns (they may have a vulnerability before they finish their initial expansion, as their base units are expensive, but as soon they have gold and gems income to recruit their thugs or best mages each turn and forge some gear, they are clearly excellent).

Their theorical problem (gluttony) is laughable for thugs nations, as commanders never starve (like other giants, they just need troops for sieges, and expandable indies can do the job).

Then they have no problem I can see for start (4 or 5 sacreds with a good bless or 10 giants of any kind can take about anything), nor in mid-late game with 18 MR recruitable thugs with 50 FR and 3 misc slots, and sages to mitigate their research weakness, nor probably in endgame with rather diverse magic, access to some of the best paths, and the best national summons in the game.

There may be 4 or 5 nations arguably as good but I see none better.

In general I think thugs nations should have crappy magic to compensate, I wonder why several* of them got the most powerful paths for endgame, astral, death, blood and correct mages when some nations have no thugs nor good mages, nor good access to any of the powerful paths (Man as always).

Now of course, I've not tested them in MP yet, so I may be wrong on their strength, but I can't find where is their weakness (capitol dependance ? Man is also very capitol dependant).

* another example is Utgard, which is clearly in my "4 or 5 nations arguably as good" list -people just don't realize how much it's an excellent nation, because the 2 others are the free spawn nations dominating the late age- but at least jotun thugs have bad MR

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

The mages aren't that impressive are they?

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

Twan:

You forgot about size 6 tramplers for Hinnom, tramplers with decent morale, MR and horn blowers to boost the morale.

Great units for early game [so no points wasted for awake SC, not even dormant one], great mid-game [thugs], great end-game [uber powerful summons, try to beat stealthy seraph assassins]. And well, they can also wish for seraph if they want to.

I haven't tested MA or LA, so can't tell anything about them. And argument that powerful nations have problems in MP is simply out of place. I have no fun of trying to compesate for weaknesses of my nation with lack of starting position and diplomacy. Like good nations were forbidden to do that too...

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

They are not excellent but good.

Ashdod :

The capitol mage isn't very good (only 3 levels) but one/3 has S3, and of course all are thugables.

The armored thug has 2 levels, fire earth or astral.

The best non capitol mage (zamzummite), is h1 + d2/e1 + 2? with possible access to death 4 (1/12). It cost 310 gold but is sacred, so no more upkeep than an Arco astrologer (having one less level and capitol only) or a Ctisian marshmaster (same level and access to death but weak water/nature magic instead of fire/earth/astral for the other paths) -to take 2 mages based nations in example- and not far more expensive than not thugable mage/priest of many nations.

And if you don't have gold to recruit them everywhere there is sage with 2 levels (s2, e2 or f2) and +2 research bonus for 175 gold.


Hinnom :

Capitol mage with h1+ blood 3 + another path 3 (possibly astral, or fire, earth), cost 500 gold but sacred and excellent thug with fear and 66hp.

Armored thug with 2 levels + b2.

In all forts :
A 150 gold sacred blood hunter with b1 + 1 random.
2 level 2 mages costing 125 gold (one with nature one with elements or astral), one of them is healer, the other a good fortune teller (10)
120g shamans with e1 d1 n1 but with a research mallus

(all of course having 20+ hp, up to 66 for the capitol only balz)

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

My reaction to Hinnom was kind of "meh." The charioteers look fun, but the mages are expensive and moderately weak outside of blood. (E3/F3/S3 on the cap-only versions, E2/F2/S2/N2 elsewhere. No cross-path spells.) The way the randoms work is interesting--I like correlated randoms--but there's no really cheap blood hunter (best is B1 for 150 gold, sacred) which would make a blood summons economy more expensive. I'm not really tempted to play them over, say, EA Ermor or Sauromatia or Agartha. Might be different in MP, and might be just because I hate blood magic for battle spells (WAY too much micromanagement), but while Hinnom is an entertaining and thematic nation I'm not going to fear them in SP the way I fear Niefelheim or the Vans.

-Max

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

Fielding squads of giants has its weaknesses too. For example, probably the most efficient way to play Hinom is take strong bless and expand/fight with small squads of giants and/or SCs. In the early to mid game a competent player can counter this quite effectively. For example a human nation can field armies designed to swarm the giants backed by mages scripted to stop them (with entangle, fire bonds, false fetters for example).

They don't have stealth units so a stealthy nation like Pangaea can give them extremely hard time.

The Hinom SCs flavor text implies that they may hurt their own population.

Are their mages better than EA TC?

Having said that, I think we need to wait some more time for MP evidence to start coming regarding the new nation's strength. The fact that the AI plays dead to strong bless nations is largely irrelevant to MP.

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

They devour population. I don't remember how much, exactly, but it's something like 30 pop/month/Rephaite in EA. The Rephaite Warrior units, Kohen (priests), Melqarts (thugs) and Ba'al (mages) all do this, and because they're all capital-only, you probably want to take Growth to keep your capital from dying.

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

DO they do that standard or only if there isn't enough food though?

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

I've forgoten that, didn't noticed it in fact when I tested Hinomm (I'm so lazy in sp that my balz were blood hunting in the capitol... so losing pop looked normal). But it's an interesting disavantadge in the long run (but as main researchers don't do that it's probably not a big one).

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

It's every turn even if they have enough normal food. I didn't test if they eat more people when they run out of food.

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

Lol, nice unit #1 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif I can just imagine the angry post of some poor soul who wished for that in MP

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

Ashdod looks cool, though. Will probably need a Prod scale or two--Gileadite archers are cooler than longbowmen but cost Resource 49, and the top-line sacred troop costs Resource 88! Most important thing: the Zamzummite is a pretty cool battle mage. Decent precision (10, though no access to Air for precision boosters), some will be capable of casting D4 spells like Cloud of Death, E3F1 spells like Magma Eruption, E5 spells (with Earth Boots, which are forgeable by Ashdod) like Weapons of Sharpness and Petrify, and D3F1 spells like Banefire. They can also participate in communions with the lesser mages. A bit more expensive than Ktonian Necromancers but they fill essentially the same niche (with a better mapmove).

I might try out Ashdod.

-Max

Edit: Okay, I'll add to that. Ashdod is *seriously* cool. I hope I'm not repeating anything others have said, but here's what I saw:

Even without a pretender, they can forge boosters to get up to F5 (F6 on battlefield, think Flame Storm w/ giant-HP chaff), D6 (Darkness/Rigor Mortis/skelly spam or national summons), E5 (E6 on battlefield), and S5. National summons are interesting, and the higher level ones are incredible. The 9th level Call Merkavah spell was incredible when I tried it in a quick test game. Even naked and unblessed, the Ophanim just rolled over everything I sent them at without taking a single wound that I saw. Def 15, Prot 21, sacred, Awe +3 (or was it +6?), fire shield 9, size 5 flying tramplers with map move fly 5, I'm in love. Better than Iron Dragons stat-wise and IMHO more fun to watch ("rolling wheels of fire," heh). I didn't even do anything with the Chayot, he just stood there and watched the carnage. (Interestingly, some of Ashdod's national summons have Shattered Soul.) I didn't play much with their normal troops but they seem acceptably fun. I did note that their PD is pretty well-balanced. Nice mix of Gileadite archers, Gileadite spearmen, and Edomite somethings. PD is potentially important for resource-hungry Ashdod.

Since Earth, Death, and Astral are my favorite schools (with a smattering of Fire for the magma spells) I think Ashdod is going to become my new favorite flavor for the next month or so. Now to see how well they do at expansion...

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

Hinnom's bows are interesting. Range 45, damage 15 (strength not added). Expensive buggers because they're both large and armored.

National summons in both Conj and Blood schools. Summons sometimes demonic, which raises the usual problem for a non-death nation -- getting high undead leadership, 'specially for the weaker demons. Summons include a unit similar to a Succubus, but that requires N4/25 and Conj, not Blood.

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

Especially interesting as they can cast flaming arrows and wind guide very easily as a nation.

Just another part of the HUGE Hinnom offensive arsenal. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Heh, we now have enough giant races over the 3 ages to have a giant only MP game!

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

Agartha, Niefelheim/Jotunheim, Hinnom/Ashdod/Gath. Am I missing any?

-Max

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

I'm not too worried about the bows. I'd rather have a hundred flaming shortbows than the 20 or so of those you could get as easily. High gold and resource cost <> useful archers.

The chariots and giant sacreds and sacred thugs, on the other hand....


Fomoria is one other giant race

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

Ashdod has slingers (7 gold, 2 res) which make a dandy chassis for Flaming Arrows, IIRC.

-Max

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

Don't forget Formoria. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Also, I've never thought of Argatha as a giant race. I guess their EA units are somewhat giant-ish.

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

I think of EA Agartha as a giant race because they have sacred, recruitable-anywhere giant Ancient Ones and commanders (and troglodyte thugs) such that I have trouble imaging why you'd recruit normal Pale Ones except as chaff to screen for your battlemages.

-Max

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

The chariots are fairly slow -- they can trample fairly big units and do considerable damage, but against hordes of individually modest units one might be better off with 'normal' chariots with more AP.

Thugs are nasty, expensive, and pop-eating. The sacred units are much the same way, which means massing them is going to be ugly if you're playing a slow, huge-map game where pop might matter more, or if you simply like playing the vaguely benevolent ruler. OTOH, you do get astral, so you can Shroud your non-sacred random-2 mages if you took a relevant bless. You can get E2, so boots and hammers are accessible. N2 will help with the supply issues, but not the pop-eating.

Keep these units in top shape with a recruit-anywhere Healer(50) N2. Handy.

Heroes are fairly nasty -- children of the Lords of Civilization.

Haven't played around much with the proto-cavemen yet. Decent environmental resistances and constitution, darkvision 50, unremarkable skills and equipment.

Weak access to most paths (water and death excluded), usually 2s, strong in blood.

...oh, and if you do get death and start reanimating, the longdead you get include longdead Nephilim and so forth. :p

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

I really think that healer is a bit to much.

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

it would make more sense to keep the actual mage but have him lose the healing, because they really need nature magic

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

The healer seems fine to me, but as I said, Hinnom is a bit "meh" in my eyes. Let's wait and see whether it's a problem in MP.

-Max

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

Late Age, dash of Middle Age.
Has anyone tried/formed an opinion on Gath's "Memories of Stone", and "Strange Fire".

Memories of Stone is a really beefed up version of reanimate dead, but isn't super combatant or anything... 17 hitpoint, 22 strength, 25 protection, 15 resist skeletons, 5+ per 10 gems. Banishment may prove difficult, but

Strange Fire seems incredibly difficult to cast with your nation's mages. I'm not sure why its there.

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

Oh my god. The Rephaite and Nephilim eat everyone in a province. I mean it's bad. Might not be so bad in your cap, with a high Growth, but I'm sieging an enemy castle right now with several of them (one Nephilim hero and several Rephaite commanders), and they are eating 500 people a turn. The province will be empty by the time I get the walls down. And my sieging troops keep starving, cause the Giants are eating all the farmers.

I think there is a big challenge to playing this nation in MP. It will take some good planning and commander deployment, to avoid eating all your peoples. And this in not a death nation... they need people in the provinces.

Playing EA Hinnom, btw, in case you had not guessed. I have found that if you send enough healers into the province you are sieging, they can heal most of the troops of their starving afflictions, and beef up supplies too. Still, tough going.

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

Heh heh heh. 500 people a turn? That's very thematic.

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

I just checked and it does not bypass lifelessness. I'm not sure it matters, though. Either you're taking damage (probably from spells) or you're not.

-Max

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

it's almost the strongest healer in teh game.. for a nation with giants...

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

Ashdod has it too. While the occasional Talmai Elder will be S3F1 and able to cast it naked, it's still kind of an odd spell, like the Wolf Pack spell for Helheim that takes Nature mages to cast (Helheim has no access to nature). It's probably thematic flavoring.

-Max

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

level 9 blood and 177 blood slaves ... cool. What skill level of blood is needed for the summons?

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

Must...buy...game! I am going to lose my mind if I can't buy this soon!I just need to stop procrastinating and idly typing info for the Turanic mod!

I caught a few slaves before. isn't 177 an overkill or stupid price,unfeasible for actual gameplay, just for fun?

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

Not at all. Since you can decide how many bloodhunters to use, you can push your blood slave income up pretty high.
Three bloodhunters in a province are likely to bring in ~15 slaves a month. If you've got 7-8 provinces being hunted, 177 is only a couple of turns.

Re: Lords of Civilization
 

I think that with one hunter per province you can get that in two-three turns if you have 7-8 provinces being hunted. Obviously depends on the special site freç