Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

I have confirmed it's not knights. I just drowned one and my support didn't go down. I still haven't found the unit. I'll get the resource-only version of the mod.


???? I would have thought it would be in this thread but I don't see it. Where is it?

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

Loren,
Go to Llama'a sticky "Map and Mod Browser".

It is a wonderful resource.

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

First post. The attachment there has all three versions of the mod. Or it should, seeing as I just checked and it was fine.

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

What should I be looking for?

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

As Edi pointed out, the mod is in the very first post of this thread.

Llama's list, which is both maps and mods is accessible also in the very first post of the sticky.

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

I figured it out now--I was looking for a separate mod, I didn't realize they were all part of the same thing.

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

I like packaging things in bundles if they are related. :)

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

Not sure if this has been mentioned before -

I've seen references to the potential problem with the Resource Only version of BI. It occurred to me that if the gold costs were reduced to "1" for all troops effected by the mod, then it wouldn't really hamper the computer very much if it filled up all of its queues with forbidden units.

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

Then it WOULD fill up those queues with the chaff at every opportunity instead of just sometimes, so no go.

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

That's my point, though. At difficulties above normal, 100g/province is nothing to the AI. The filling of the queues is not a problem in and of itself, it's the gold that is tied up that is the problem. At 1g per unit, the "problem" should effectually disappear.

< shrug > Maybe I'll just give it a test (when I can pry myself away from Fallout to do Dom3 SP), and let you know.....

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

Yes, it would then recruit nothing BUT the unrecruitable chaff and end up with no troops, which is the problem I'm talking about.

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

What would it do with all of its extra money then? Queues are limited to 100 units, which is the mechanic I am banking on here. Once saturated, the AI should shift to more accessible units as long as it has gold, no?

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

Read the damned mod file before making pronouncements. There are disabled chaff and recruitable units mixed in the poptypes, which means that when it gets a choice, it will go for the cheaper but unproducable unit over the normally priced, unmodified unit if gold is weighted too much. If you're so curious about it, then run a test on it yourself and tell me the results.

Bottom line: I am NOT interested in making your suggested alterations. The reason for that is that the mod as it currently stands works well enough. So I'm not going to waste any more time on it.

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

Woah, easy on the blood pressure there, Edi. <3

I did state a few posts back that I'd probably just get in there and try it myself, and let you know. ;) But you kept discussing it. :P

I haven't played that much with BI, but from what I saw, it seemed like there weren't entirely that many pop-types that had disabled units mixed with un-modded units. I just thought (from what I saw) that the problem for the AI was that it filled the queue with the cheap units anyways, which then dumped 1000+ gold per province that it did so in, which then directly impacted their ability to field large forces at all.

Maybe I haven't seen enough to judge clearly, but all I know is that personally (I love Enslave Mind), I don't find the Full/Gold versions acceptable, so I was just brainstorming on what could be done with the Resource version to avoid the problems that I and others had seen.

But again, you don't need to worry about it, when I get the time to do so, I will experiment a bit more with the current version, and then some with a modified version, and I will let you know how they compare in performance.

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

I am playing a sp game, and forgive me for not reading the entire thread. It looks great so far, but I am going to post any suggestions I have as I run across them.

Lizard warriors can be a good unit at times, due to their above average mr, morale, strength, low resource cost and 2 attacks.

They are good against Ryleh because they are fast, have good mr, and kill stuff quickly when they reach them. Good to tear down walls because they are str 11 and you can get tons of them quickly.

However, they are not good in the front lines charging into missile fire-and that may be how the AI uses them. And that may be why they are disabled. It does handicap the player to not to be able to use them, but that does make for a better challenge.

But it is a great idea on improving sp, and i am looking forward to seeing how the game progresses. Thanks Edi.

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

I've played several SP games with the Resource-Only version of Better Independents, and I simply don't see the problem you're describing. The Mighty AIs all fill their armies with national troops and the "decent" independents, and they still seem to field massive armies. It seems to work exactly as advertised.

But feel free to run your own tests. Too much data can't hurt. :)

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

I ran into the same Problem Jim did in the past using this mod. When units are modded to being resource heavy, the AI still tries to make them.

This creates a situation where when the AI builds a new fortress, he fills it up with units he will never be able to create. In the end, he can only build units from his capital.

Overtime I found the AI easier to play against using the different variations of this mod because the AI force was so limited. True it fields national troops, but not a lot of them and exclusively from the capital once it fills up satelite fortresses with independents it cannot produce.

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

Would this be corrected by using only the increased gold version of this mod?

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

Yes, the Gold-only version of the mod would fix that problem. However, the Gold-only version can lead to the earlier problem, in which using Charm (or whatever) to steal units can cripple you with upkeep.

Honestly, I have not seen any problems with the Resource-only version of Better Independents. I wonder what the difference between my games and these other games could be?

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

Well darn it seems that the gold version bankrupts the AI and the resource version clogs up the AI build que with units it cannot produce. Im assuming the combined version does both? Hmmm this sounds like this mod hinders the AI more than it helps! :(

I wonder if there is a way to fix any of this?

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

I have never experienced either problem with the current version of the mod. Usually I have a devil of a time repelling the hordes of quality troops the AI throws at me.

I am also finding it curious that the AI gets bankrupted by the gold troops unless we're talking about heavy astral nations using enslave mind, or R'lyeh in the EA.

I've never seen the problem behavior, but if the people who have can think of a workaround, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

Hi Edi which version of the mod do you use?

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

The one that's behind the download link on my home pages, 2.1

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

Oh sorry I meant resource, gold, or both?

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

I've used both of them, no problems, as well as the combo one.

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

I really like this mod and the idea behind it. Removing these suboptimal choices ahead of time is a great way to make the AI perform better.

Right now modded units have a couple of worrisome potential/theoretical issues. If you (or an AI) somehow acquires them, the upkeep on 9000 gold units is ruinous. Similarly, the AI is feared to be (or perhaps demonstrably) foolish enough to clog its queues for practically forever with 800 resource units, if given the opportunity.

This probably isn't a new idea, but another approach to this mod, that removes these concerns I think, would be to remove the bad independent choices by turning those units into clones of a unit effective enough to stay unchanged currently. This means all of the choices would be available everywhere, but none of the units would be totally ill-advised options for AI to pick.

This wouldn't have to be some super creative balance mod to work. For example, just make all the lousy guy-with-a-stick variants into copies of the reasonable Light Infantry w/Javelin. Tribal and light cavalry variants could all turn into cataphracts or good heavy cavalry.

This solution isn't necessarily any better than what you have already. It would change the look and difficulty of a lot of the independent poptypes significantly. Game balance as a whole would change more, since good (or at least ok) units would be recruitable everywhere. Although on the bright side, you wouldn't have to worry about the possibility of clogged AI recruitment queues or bankrupting yourself with enslave.

Anyway, you asked for ideas so I thought I'd throw it out there. :)

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

So having become weary of the AI recruiting hordes of ridiculous independents, I added this mod. But it doesn't seem to work right for me. No matter which of the three mods I use, none of the independents in the territory are available at all, either at the amped up gold and resource costs or otherwise. The recruiting page is just empty of options in all non-castle territories. What gives? I'm using version 3.23b of the game (which is the latest patch) and 2.1 of the three mods (gold/resources/both). Kinda stumped!

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

Also I have no other mods so that's not it.

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

You sure that you're not playing a "no-independents" map? Those have the independents eliminated by map commands.

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

This seems to hit the problem right on the nose, Snacktime. There are two ways of removing independents: By this mod, which restricts their availability via prohibitive cost, or by map commands (which requires a specific map file and eliminates ALL independents by assigning invalid poptypes to all provinces).

Re: Better Independents v2.1
 

This is the first mod I've downloaded, and it seems to work very well. I'm using the "gold" version, and the AI has been far more aggressive than before.

In the first game I played, Pythium was attacking me every turn by the end of the first year, with armies in the hundreds, sometimes in two or three places at once.