Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hadrian Aventine:
Just a little question for all of you...
Tell me, if you download a copy of original Beowulf off the net, is that stealing?
Also, if it is, who are you stealing from?
Let me know what you think.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Remember, Beowulf was written in Anglo-Saxon. Anything you read in a modern language had to be translated by somebody, who doubtless holds a copyright to his/her work. So you'd be stealing from the translator. But there are undoubtedly translations from so long ago that the copyright has expired, so those would be public domain.

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

Same for other ancient works like:
The Bible, The Iliad, The Odyssey, The Aeneid, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, The Pearl, The Republic, Canterbury Tales, etc.

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dmm:
Remember, Beowulf was written in Anglo-Saxon. Anything you read in a modern language had to be translated by somebody, who doubtless holds a copyright to his/her work. So you'd be stealing from the translator. But there are undoubtedly translations from so long ago that the copyright has expired, so those would be public domain.[/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok, now we are getting into an area that I am not familier with. Are translations copyrightable? Common sense tells me no. If so, how could you have a copyright at all? I write a book, someone translates it into German. If you can copyright a translation, they hold the copyright to the German Version. Then they translate it back to English. Now they hold another copyrighted translation, that just happens to be identical to my original.

Now, many translations have annotations, or additional original stuff added by the translator. Especially in a case like Beowulf, where historical context may need added. That portion is theirs for sure, but the part that is translated should still be the property of the original author, regardless of the language. Or in this case, the translated portion should be public domain, as is the original work.

Of course I'm not a lawyer, I just talk like one sometimes. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif So I could be totally full of bunk on this point.

Geoschmo


[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 29 August 2001).]

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geoschmo:
Ok, now we are getting into an area that I am not familier with. Are translations copyrightable? Common sense tells me no. If so, how could you have a copyright at all? I write a book, someone translates it into German. If you can copyright a translation, they hold the copyright to the German Version. Then they translate it back to English. Now they hold another copyrighted translation, that just happens to be identical to my original.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IANAL, but as a writer I know some things about copyright.

1. Yes, translations are copyrightable.

2. The original author owns the right of translation of a work. Therefore, if someone wants to translate a book of mine into German, he/she must purchase from me the right to translate and publish that work in German. S/he may then publish the work. Usually such contracts with stipulate that the original author derives 30-40% royalties from the translation.

(NB: Often the initial contract with the publishing house will transfer this right to the initial publisher with stipulation about royalties to be collected in the event a translation is published.)

3. The original author's name and copyright info must be on the translation. Thus:

_The Rise and Fall of the Phong Empire_ copyright 2000 by Eric Snyder II. German translation copyright 2001 by Hans Offmeibuch.

4. There is no right to retranslate the work into English. It already existed in English. Doing so would be equivalent to piracy.

5. If the original author can't be found, or is unknown, or his/her copyright has expired, then the translation can be created and copyrighted by the translator.

Thus, Beowulf can be translated into modern English and the translation copyrighted by the translator.

However, there are almost certainly translations old enough to be in the public domain.

If you want to copyright your own translation, though, you'd better start with the original Anglo-Saxon. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

LL

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

Cool. I stand corected. That makes a lot of sense when you put it that way.

Geo

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hadrian Aventine:
Tell me, if you download a copy of original Beowulf off the net, is that stealing? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no. its actually very clear cut about books. various estates own the publishing rights to things like shakespear, lovecraft, and beowulf. the original authors are quite obviously, deader than a neutral race in a no-bonus game. when you buy the book, someone is getting money. if you pick it up off a bookshelf and run out of the store, you are stealing. If you download it from the net or copy it from some other publicly availalbe source, you are not. if you copy large sections of it that would normally not fall under fair use laws, you are not stealing.

I do not remember what the lines of demarcation are, but I do know that they are clear and specific.

now, fair use applied to music is another story. all the people with a wild hair about how the letter of the law somehow corresponds to ethics should have a field day with why someone who downloads a low quality MP3 for personal use, is doing something worse than a multinational auto manufacturer who takes a perfectly leagle 5 second sample from a Rush song, uses an extrememly identifyable jingle in their driving comercial, pays no royalties, and sells thousand of units.

coincidentially enough, the person was downloading from a service that probably would not be illegal (i dont remember how the cases closed, i have a sneaky suspicion that its not illegal, and they agreed to shut it down just to defer further leagle costs..) if the courts involved had a better understanding of technology. The service did not upload the music. The service did not download the music. They are making money off its misuse, but if i own a toll bridge, I am not responsible for people who use it as a meeting place to sell drugs. anyone who thinks they can derive morality from the letter of the law set by a single and hotly disputed precident is delusional.

Dont give me 'the letter of the law says x, and that must be moral' crap. historically, the law has favoured some rather immoral ****, and since Askan stooped to mentioning Nazies, so will I. We were all pretty darn happy to persecute every one of them for following orders and laws that we found immoral, on the grounds that some orders just have to be questioned. instead of pointing at an issue and siding your self with goodness just because an overpaid attorney was able to place goodness on your side of a thin line isnt going to make it so.

have the decency to argue your own point of view. napster had a legitimate, capitalist business model. some people got jellous. before everything is said and done, there will be a method to exchange all sorts of things Online, and it will be leagle. with any luck, the recording industry will die altogether, as it was an entirely late-20th-centure phenomanon, and a bad one at that.

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

grr. im being to bull headed. i will go away and let people have their opinions.

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

Puke,

You obviously feel very strongly about this. But when presented with an explanation why Napster/Warez is wrong, all you can do is cite examples of equally wrong behavior being defined at the time as legal. All I can say to that is "Two wrongs dont make a right."

Of course it is possible that laws and regulations are at times unjust. To argue the contrary would be ridiculous. Do you think that somehow defying Nazi laws encouraging religious persecution is somehow on a equal moral ground with defying perfectly reasonable copyright laws? That's a bit of a stretch. Not all laws are just. But your moral right to defy unjust laws does not extend to every law you disagree with.

There are two clear differences between Napster/Warez, and your hypothetical toll bridge. First has to do with the common and accepted use. The common and accepted use of a toll bridge is to get across a river. Nothing at all illegal about that. The common and accepted use of Napster/Warez is to steal music and software that you did not pay for. Now, if you have only ever used Napster/Warez for perfectly legitimate uses, good for you. But you are naive if you don't think you are in the microscopically small minority in that regard.

The second difference is, even the drug dealers pay the toll for the use of the bridge. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Geoschmo

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 29 August 2001).]

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by askan:
Now if you can justify to the artist/creator why its alright to rip them off then fair enough. If you can't then your just a thief, no different from the guy who steals you wallet except alot more cowardly (because you aren't facing your victims).

Askan
(Head developer for a product that gets pirated)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I downloaded the MP3 of 'Every Day is Halloween'

then I bought the album containing the song. I would never have purchased it otherwise. Same goes for the latest Motorhead, the classic Slayer "Seasons in the Abyss" two Sepultura albums, Boingo's self titled album, and countless more.

Without the ability to prevue music, i would not buy anything that i didnt hear at a friends place and enjoy. music stores figured that out, that why there are listening stations in every single music store now. I dont like going to stores to listen, they are full of annoying kids and degenerate beatnicks. I like to listen to music Online. If someone wants to accuse me of stealing, they can refund the money I spent buying those $12-20 dollar CDs.

maybe its a different story for people who collect songs Online and never spend a dime, but im not about to make appologies for someone elses misdeeds. And its not as if their misbehavior is what killed napster. I think the music industries over reaction to the situation killed napster, and they would probably be making alot more money if they had harnessed all that free marketing potential, instead of squelching it.

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geoschmo:
Puke,

You obviously feel very strongly about this. But when presented with an explanation why Napster/Warez is wrong, all you can do is cite examples of equally wrong behavior being defined at the time as legal. All I can say to that is "Two wrongs dont make a right."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think my point has been missed. one Last clarification before i dissapear. the law, is in general, a good idea. its not always. if you live your life by other peoples standards of decency without forming educated opinions on your own, you are living without free will and are a drone to the mechanisms of popular society.

I agree that many behaviors discussed on this thread are against the law. I think that without adherance to the law, there can be no civic order. I think that without some degree of civic disobediance, there can be no social progress. I think that the recording industry, musicians, music listeners, and software pirates have all had their fair share of seperate yet equally stupid ideas. I think that I will keep on doing what I choose as long as I feel that it is the correct corse of action to further my goals. That meant exactly what it sounded like. To qualify that Last bit, I think that I will never engage in a course of action that is detremental to an industry or an artform that I enjoy. And if anyone gets wise and asks who determines what is detremental, the obvious answer is "me."

feel free to disagree, im off to haunt another thread.

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

I have to disagree with you here Puke. Napster in my mind is exactly the same thing as Warez. I won't disagree that the music industry or individual artists should do something like Napster to market their music, but they have every right to want Napster itself shut down.

Your claim that you only were using it to preview music that you were deciding whether or not to buy is irrelevant. The fact is Napster had no controls over whether a user bought an album later. Once the person downloaded the file, they couldn't care less. They were making money (throguh banner ads, etc.) off other people's work without their permission, plain and simple. And that's wrong.

Whether or not your intentions were ethical or honorable in sampling music is not the issue. The question is is it ethical for Napster to make the songs available. The answer to that has to be NO.

Whether it is a good idea or not for the Music industry to doing something like Napster is irrelevant. The fact is they haven't yet, and noone has the right to do it for them.

Geoschmo

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Do you think that somehow defying Nazi laws encouraging religious persecution is somehow on a equal moral ground with defying perfectly reasonable copyright laws? That's a bit of a stretch. Not all laws are just. But your moral right to defy unjust laws does not extend to every law you disagree with.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Here's where you loose him.

Some people find said religious persecution laws perfectlly reasonable.

Whether or not a law is reasonable and ethical is the test I use to determine if I care about it at all. Laws do not determine ethics and ethics don't determine laws. Someone makes a law making it illegal for anyone under 18 to use a computer? Tough. Someone makes it legal to kill? Also tough, doesn't mean I'm going to run out and machine gun people.

Applying this to warz/napster, warz is bad because you're supporting the inethical uses of that site even when you download it ethiclly (i.e. you bought the game and the CD broke, hasn't arrived, etc).

Napster? No. You CAN use it for the same idea as warz, and THAT is bad, but napster itself it not. You might as well say the WWW is bad because it allows Warz sites..

Phoenix-D

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

Some good discussion going on here.

As far as the download option for a game like SE:IV. We have to go one way or the other with a game. The main reason is because if it is a download only game the manual will be electronic. Once we go down that road it is an easy pirate target. Manuals are the number one anti-piracy device that I can think of. Plus if we make a game a download most major sites will not review it since they look at that as shareware.

As far as the multiple PC's in one house I have no issue with that myself personally, I think that is a silly license issue. IN fact have you guys seen what they plan to do with Windows XP to "fix" that problem, scary stuff.

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

Richard are you sure you want to throw MS into this topic. I can see about 1000 Posts coming up. As a developer I find MS knows only one thing about copy right. Copy Right. And then defend it.
EULA's are horrible. There is nothing like buying a product and seeing in bold letters "by opening this product you agree to the EULA agreement located on the cd" Then reading it and disagreeing with it. What do you do.
Can't take it back to the store.


Do you people ever read the EULA's you agree to by just signing up to a web site.

Especially the privacy areas or the idea that anything you write becomes the property of the hosting site.

And another thing.

The way i see this Copy right thing going is that it will get to the point that you will have to copy right your own personal video's (trips, backyard bbqing birthdays etc...) pictures etc...

And to do this you will have to pay for that right from some company like MS and if you do not you will not be able to play it on any electronic equipment you own.

Same with music.

I can see it going that way.

I hope it does not happen.

It is not a criminal activity.

If it is then a rolling stop at a stop sign is a criminal activity. And you are a criminal if you do it.

Now all this can change if the Music industry , software industry place their product and consumer ahead of the margin and the stock holder.

But I think greed will win out.

Ethics and moral stances do not belong in this arguement. That is why the laws have to be worked out. It will take time and I do hope they keep the consumer in the best interest. But in the battle of control the consumer has the shallowest pockets.

I think I have even lost myself on this post.

Later.



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L? GdX $ Fr C++ SdT T+ Sf* Tcp+ A M++ MpTM ROTS Pw+ Fq+ Nd Rp++ G+

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

http://promo.net/pg/

is the link

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L? GdX $ Fr C++ SdT T+ Sf* Tcp+ A M++ MpTM ROTS Pw+ Fq+ Nd Rp++ G+

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

Besides paying a subscription to use my computer and copyright overload, one other thing DRIVES ME INSANE.

I recently read that several television networks were asked by several advertising firms if they could 1.) Place ads in the lower right hand corner of the screen DURING TV SHOWS and 2.) SUPERIMPOSE images over the screen during television shows.

Honestly, I want to watch TV, NOT infomercials. Who wants to watch the opening shot of the new enterprise with a nice MCDONALDS logo splashed on top of it.

------------------
HADRIAN T. AVENTINE
admin@spaceempires.org
Administrator | SpaceEmpires.org

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

In case there is any doubt, everything I have posted at Shrapnel Games' Forums is the intellectual property of Shrapnel Games' Forums. This should be implicitly understood by anyone using a forum.

I gave you a couple hours work providing a general web router data structure. To effectively use it you need algorithms which create a tolerant adaptive system. I can easily do that too, but giving it away for free would be cheating all the dummies out there who struggle so hard and still write programs full of bugs.....

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

Picard: Replicator, Earl Grey Tea, hot. Actually, cancel that, I think I'd prefer an Ice cold Coca Cola(tm). Mmmm, just can't get enough of that taste...

This idea might take off for a while, but I can't imagine it proving too popular. I think the general trend in advertising lately has ben towards th subtle. Advertisers will soon realise that if their advertising is too intrusive, it will generate a negative response from the purchasing public. I hope so anyway.


------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M&gt;M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Work out your code at http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/se4main.htm

[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 30 August 2001).]

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tesco samoa:
If it is then a rolling stop at a stop sign is a criminal activity. And you are a criminal if you do it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erm... yeah. It is/you are. In Ohio, first offense is a minor misdemeanor; second and subsequent offenses are misdemeanors of the fourth degree.

(No. I don't make rolling stops &lt;G&gt; )

LL

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

&lt;shudder&gt; Did I hear someone say "Windows XP"?

Indeed, there's no reason for it. Piracy is one thing; using your own copy of software on more than one computer is another. And for that reason I will refuse to buy WinXP, OfficeXP, or any other technology that does the same thing.

(NB: The academic edition of Office2K had the same "feature" on it; they were apparently testing it for bigger and better things--and finding ways to get around those of us who got around it.)

Personally, I see no reason why they don't offer a "family" license: use WinXP/whatever on all of your family's computers. You pay $30-$40 more than standard pricing, and we don't care how many computers you put it on, but you're on your honor not to put it on computers not in your home/in dorm rooms or apartments belonging to people whose permanent address is still your home.

Much as I dislike Microsoft in many ways, I think I might even be willing to pay the extra few bucks, just to make sure they're not out looking for me. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

LL

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

Intrusive advertising hasn't stopped commericial breaks from growing in length, telemarketing, and ezboard & geocities popups.

------------------
HADRIAN T. AVENTINE
admin@spaceempires.org
Administrator | SpaceEmpires.org

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Napster? No. You CAN use it for the same idea as warz, and THAT is bad, but napster itself it not. You might as well say the WWW is bad because it allows Warz sites..
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The only reason you can see a difference between Napster and Warez is that you like Napster, and you don't like Warez. That's called situational ethics, and it's garbage.

The fact is, you aren't allowed to copy a song you bought and give it to someone who didn't. And you aren't allowed to receive a song you didn't buy from someone who did.

I understand their are technical differances between Napster and Warez. But if you were truthful, are those the reasons you support Napster? What if Napster was setup to allow "sharing" of software instead of music? Is it really the technical differences you are defending, or the content?

The fact that Napster doesn't actually hold the song at any time, and only makes it easier for the two of you to get together does not absolve them of any responsibility. And the fact that they profit from the theft makes them much more than a condiut. It makes them an active participant in the transaction.

Warez is a pawn shop, dealing in stolen goods. Napster is the same thing, without actually holding the inventory. All sales are on a "consignment", but Napster still gets their "cut" by selling advertising, and making it easy for theives and buyers to get together.

Geoschmo

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 30 August 2001).]

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The only reason you can see a difference between Napster and Warez is that you like Napster, and you don't like Warez. That's called situational ethics, and it's garbage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. I have over 50 MP3s on my hard drive. All legal. Notice I didn't say ethical- *legal*. Using Napster or a similar service to share *those* files is OK, using it to transfer, say, a work that ISN'T available for free is NOT.

See the difference? It's also difficult to keep said unethical trading off a setup like napster, since MP3s don't have "free yes/no" tag, and even if they did that could be easily changed. Filtering by titles has been attempted but doesn't work all that well.

To use your anaology, Warz is a parn shop, whereas Napster is more like a swap meet, or the guy the pawn shop pays the rent to. Responsible? Only in a roundabout sort of way.

Phoenix-D

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geoschmo:
The fact is, you aren't allowed to copy a song you bought and give it to someone who didn't. And you aren't allowed to receive a song you didn't buy from someone who did.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except... except... people have been doing this for decades, first using reel-to-reel tapes (side note: my mother still has one of these machines), then using cassette tapes, and in the Last few years using CD-R/CD-RW. I don't think a single one of us can claim to have never made/accepted a mix tape.

Now, is such a mix tape legal? Hell... I'd be hard pressed to come up with an answer to that. There's the matter of enforcement of copyright, as well as the Fair Use clauses, and determining whether they apply here is shaky ground at best. But I think the record companies understnad that mix tapes are, in the end good for business, as they introduce people to more music.

Napster could be (could have been?) like this... but in the end it isn't. When people start using it to trade entire libraries of music, the "mix tape" concept falls through, and whether those were legal or not, Napster wouldn't make the cut.

LL

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

Please note I never said Napster isn't a good idea. Personally I think that it is the wave of the future for marketing and releasing music.

But it needs to be in control of the people actually producing the product that is being shared. They should be the ones getting the lions share of the profits from the system. Otherwise it's pirating. Plain and simple.

Geo

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geoschmo:
Please note I never said Napster isn't a good idea. Personally I think that it is the wave of the future for marketing and releasing music.

But it needs to be in control of the people actually producing the product that is being shared. They should be the ones getting the lions share of the profits from the system. Otherwise it's pirating. Plain and simple.

Geo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bingo. And the final problem is determining whether the people in control should be the artists, or the media companies. Unfortunately for them, the artists have to fight that battle. (Though the Tasini et. al. v. New York Times decision might be found in later ludgments to apply to musicians as well. Could be interesting.)

LL

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

On a related topic, those of you who would like to download Beowulf or other classics, check out the Gutenberg Library on the web. It is a free service where old texts are typed in a plain format, so anyone can download and enjoy them. They have gone through some pains to ensure that only legally distributable texts are on the site, so you don’t have to deal with the ethical struggles that this thread has been discussing! I pulled Sun Tzu’s Art of War off, it was a nice quite download.

Sorry, I don’t have the address handy, but you won’t get too many extra hits if you search for Gutenberg.

Re: SEIV is being Pirated
 

About Beowulf and other classic texts, they are public domain, even many translated forms, as the author(S) are all long gone and many of the thousands of translators are dead from old age of getting run down by the devil car running them down.

Only recent translations and commentary can be copyrighted and in the case of classics, you must prove you did not get it from newer services, which very easy if you go to a used book store.

Either way, I doubt anyone will solve the copyright issue in the next few decades. All I know is that I get radio access for free, but my cable TV bill is greater than my electric bill, and just about all forms of media entertainment (books, periodicals, shows, etc.) requirement payment except the radio.

------------------
HADRIAN T. AVENTINE
admin@spaceempires.org
Administrator | SpaceEmpires.org