Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

You should get the Morimoto Soba if you can, it is -amazing-. Also a big fan of the Brutal Bitter, and their Rogue-N-Berry used to be hands down the best berry beer you could get in America, til they cut it because it wasn't as good as Belgian berry beers. o.O


I like this discussion much more than the other. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

And yeah it makes me sad that Dom4 might be so far away that it may never come, but I support the decision, and I'm drooling to see what these two wild and crazy guys might come up with next. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

I dunno, throwing good money away to hear Elvis..... Could be a waste of money after all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Yes a book depreciates, though considering the rate, if you dont consider inflation it looks like books go up in price. Picked up a Harlan Ellison, 'I, Robot' the other day with a cover price of 1.35 in 1971, just a small paperback, and i bought it for 3.50. Inflation would put it about 6 or 7 bucks, so it certainly depreciates. Age depreciates just about everything. Besides wine and women.


And its both, its both too expensive for people i know to shell out on something that at first or second glance is an obvious pass. I passed for quite a while myself, and ill admit, i didnt get dominions 2 the best of ways, but it prompted me to purchase dominions 3. Now I dont advocate doing the same thing for friends of mine, but i know theyd like the game if they actually played it for a while, but all of them cant physically sit at my computer for a few hours getting into it. They have to buy it, or "try it", and 60 dollars is a bit steep of an investment in a video game thats not an advertised A+ title. You know what youre getting 30 hours of when you buy Bioshock, or Oblivion, or Diablo III when that comes out. You know youre going to get a quality title.

Its not exactly enticing new customers at the current price tag.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

the people who buy dominions do so because their tired of wandering a world of "next craze next phase next nothing new" games that makes up quality titles like Bio "rip-off system shock" shock, Obli "same impoverished RPG models" vion, or Dia "beat a dead horse some more" blo III.

The people who buy Dominions do so because they crave its uniqueness and personality.

The people who buy Bioshock do so because they crave the warm familiar feeling of sitting in a warm pile of [censored]; they've been trained by society and media to enjoy and celebrate the same ole [censored].

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Of course its a great game, but I can throw away more money than the average joe on a risk. And I had to throw away what to most people is a fair price at best for games that are considerably better developed. If you care about where your money goes after it leaves your hands, and yeah i know, most consumers are idiots, doesnt mean we all are, then you think about what the costs break down to...if you know a game that costs millions to produce (though it breaks down to several dollars a produced copy), sells at 50 dollars a piece, you would expect, much like every other market on other, that if the production cost of an item is less than millions, to cost less as a result.


Why be the only company that sells a product for 20% more than everyone else on earth? From paradox, to malfador, their prices are reasonable, what makes you different. Why are people paying an extra 15-25 dollars more for your game, than any other game in the same category, independant 4x games.

Paradoxs EU3 is already cheaper.

And its 3d.

Youre like starbucks (who is failing miserably now). Theres no actual reason that your product costs more than the exact same product elsewhere, youre just smug. A good idea, implemented into a consumer base in the richest country on earth, internetonia, priced for maximum profit, without any consideration to the actual value of the product.

When this recession sets in more, youll drop your prices, because no one will be buying frivilous entertainment. Might as well have a nice large community base on which to sell budget expansions too.

You guys make so many patches with new content, you should consider going on steam, selling the game for vastly cheaper, and sell the patches as episodic content.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Hey, hey Omni, lay off. Bioshock is an extremely good game, and in a totally different genre.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

If I compare value for money of the Dominions franchise to anything else I own on the gaming side, it's no contest. Dominions wipes the floor with everything else, though some other games I have played a lot and still play. I've bought every Dominions game and never been disappointed. Sure, I have my own gripes about some stuff and I haven't exactly been quiet (which is why I got put in charge of managing the bug reports), but in the end those gripes are minor. The price is not one of the sticking points for me.

Considering how much time I've spent playing the game and fiddling with it, $60 is nothing. I'd pay that in euros for this game, which would be $90 or more at current rates of exchange. I've got games I paid an equal amount for and didn't play a lot at all.

As far as the community goes, there is a fairly good amount of permanence here, as far as permanence wrt any game goes. That's because currently there is nothing that can hold a candle to Dominions in the turn based strategy genre. Notto mention that if you do fork over the 60 bucks for Dominions 3, not only do you get the game and the manual, you will also be able to use all the stuff that has been provided here for free. Which is a damn lot for an indie game, I should say. As someone who has actually made a lot of that free stuff, I can say that making it has also been fun, though frustrating at times. Been part of the value for money I've gotten for Dom3, the exploration.

As far as the Shrapnel Games decision to charge $55, that's theirs to make. They have all the data on how many copies they sell, what it costs to produce and they have comparison data from a lot of other things. They have been successful in this business for years, so they know what they are doing. If Dominions 3 is going to drop in price, it'll probably only be to $49 to cross the psychological barrier DonCorazon was talking about, but it certainly won't come down from that.

There is also the thing that lowering prices to bargain bin levels is what the mainstream games do because they have a market of tens of millions of users. Dominions does not, so lowering the price significantly is not going to recoup the costs. The people who are interested in this kind of game are generally willing to pay the $45 to $55 (that's counting periodic discounts) for it and they will usually feel they are getting their money's worth. Not everyone, but then, there is always someone who is disappointed.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

The MoM community is alive and kicking, theres multiple clones in the works, as well as mods and new strategy guides and a user improvement patch.

Games like Master of Magic, Jagged Alliance 2, that didnt receive much commercial success at the time, are now shining examples of how the pirate community actually helps the pc game community. Besides pc gaming being a for profit business, its also a part of history, and a community as a whole thats seperate, but equal, to the console gamer or board gamer community. A nod given to preservation of this community, as the galactic civs guys did by not using copy protection, or valves contribution of steam, have only helped their products fly off the shelves. Concern with art and customer satisfaction as a first and formost helps those products sell.

Games where the companies at the time either didnt market them correctly, or at all in some cases, that were quality pieces of work, have been resurrected by the warez and pirate communities not only as pieces of nostalgia (heck i think they still actually try and sell jagged alliance 2) but as new games with user created fix'it'up patches and sometimes, entire new campaigns, gamemodes, expansions, etc.

Now if the makers of these games had the insight companies like iD and epic had back then, to spend the money splattering cheap demo discs all over every electronics store in every major city, and allowed a mod community access to as much of the game as they needed to completely alter the gameplay, theyd have games that were commercial successes like Doom and Duke.

Those titles were developed on the cheap, in garages, just like this one.

There is nothing different in terms of quality between this, and doom, or hexen, or any other smashing commercial success.

The difference is availability, this isnt in stores, visibility, its an old game, it isnt being reviewed anymore, not alot you can do about that, especially if you dont actively seek out press, and lastly, cost, doom, cost you a few dollars for the first episode, and 30 dollars for the rest of the game, unless you had BBB access, you got the first episode free. Then you had the option eventually to purchase the box in stores (episodic content, multiple releases in various mediums?! omg they used ideas from the two largest commercial marketing successes in the entertainment industry, george lucas and everything starwars, how many versions of those movies are there? the fans just buy every one of them even tho they already have one, and this one adds like 4 new seconds of film, and valve, with the steam system for delivering episodic content.

The price, the marketing, the availability, its all the stone age with you guys.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Uh Warren Spector, who made system shock, made bioshock. It was basically the whole looking glass crew.

It wasnt a rip off, it was sort of a sequel/pre-quel/alternate reality

The simularities are intentional.

Ever play Dues Ex? Same thing. Spector loves his inventory managing FPSs

Both are great games.

And system shock suffered from too high a price for an unknown title as well. I bought it, but i remember it took all my christmas money as a kid heh.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

God I am not even going to bother quoting you this time. Kraftwerk, it makes me sad that you used such a cool name, because you truly are utterly clueless. It's like you're going through some crappy economics course in a community college, from a guy who thinks the biggest favor that he can do for you is to plug you in to the mainstream economy with both feet on the ground.

I hate to break it to you, but first off, Dominions (as has been stated earlier) is in fact, art. It is not a chair that you pay materials+ for, it is conceptual expression, and you will pay whatever it is worth to you, or not. If your friends won't try the demo to see if they want to buy it, then there is no reason whatsoever to assume that lowering the price will in fact incentivize them.

I'm going to skip your blather about cheaper indie titles, did it ever occur to you that they HAD to lower prices to stimulate sales, whereas you are being told by all comers that Dominions in fact does NOT have to lower prices to stimulate sales?

Then we get to the Starbucks fallacy. You're actually eroding your own argument here, and you don't even realize it. You see, Starbucks is Bioshock, and Oblivion. Dominions, is the little coffee shop up the block from your house, with the amazing pastries. You see, in the world of coffee, people are starting to turn away from the mass produced "lowest common denominator" garbage. Coffee (read: espresso) drinkers (I am one of them) are snobs, and Starbucks isn't cool enough anymore. Dominions players tend to be a bit snobby as well (though we hide it here, since we're all the cream at the top http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif), and it's only a matter of time before you grow up and you realize that all the mass marketed media that you're gorging on, really isn't very substantial. Somewhere around the time you realize you should come back here and apologize for stinking up the boards, your buddies will just buy the damned game for $60.

That is, if you're not working overtime every week as a dishwasher to support your 19 year old wife and three kids.

Now see, I promised myself I wouldn't get nasty, and look what you made come out of my fingers..... < sigh >

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

But at the local coffee shop, coffee is 15 cents a cup. At starbucks its 6 friggin dollars. So I dont get that. And shove the high and mighty mass media this and that, ma and pop mumbo jumbo, everything is mass media, this forum, the shirts you wear, the car you drive, the billboards you pass by, youre just as bombarded by it, and involved in its proliferation as anyone you want to point fingers at.

Fact is, the coffee in the cup is the same coffee. The bits and bytes are the same in every piece of software. You dont want to be subjected to scrutiny against mass produced products? Dont compete in a free market. Lifes tough, the markets are harsh, and the lowest common denominator at the end of the day, is where the bargain is, and in a world increasingly wary of spending its dollar, the lower common denominator is whats going to sell.

You dont pay out the wazoo for a print of a painting, theyre all about the same regardless of the artistic content.

For someone who apparently likes Kraftwerk, youd think youd know abit more about (or like) Andy Warhols POP! movement that kraftwerk was a result of. You can mass produce art and sell it for a reasonable price.

You dont have to be snobby smug intellectual to appreaciate it either. You can be a plain plum dumb consumer, and have just as much right to purchase a product at a reasonable price as anyone else, regardless of your level of appreciation.

Art is a product.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Would Sir please make up Sir's mind? First the MoM community dried up because people weren't buying the game any more, and now it's alive and kicking because people aren't buying the game any more. You simply can't have it both ways. Real life isn't like Dominions: there's actually a limit to the good stuff.


Dominions 3 is selling and selling well. The Dominions 3 community is alive and thriving. Those are the fact of the matter; they won't go away just because they're inconvenient to your argument.

E pur si muove. And yet it sells. Funny, that.

And yet it sells.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

That's like saying that the games produces by EA Games and Sid Meier are the same games. It's quite simply not the case.

An Andy Warhol print is going to cost you a lot more than a copy of Dominions 3, even though there's gone more time and work into making Dominions 3. So what was your point again?

But it's a product where there's no obvious relationship between the cost of manufacture and the value of the finished product.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Why indeed. Careful, Kraftwerk. You're precariously close to starting down on the road to wisdom.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Kraftwerk,

Agreed that Dom 3 will never be a mass market game without lower pricing, advertising, publicity, better production values etc. The thing is, with a game like this, it would unlikely be a big hit anyway, the learning curve is too great, it's too slow and not visual enough for a typical consumer.

Illwinter and shrapnel could put in a lot of time and money and get a cheaper, better produced game out to a lot of people, but would the increase in revenue cover the costs and the extra time? Remember that the Illwinter guys develop in their spare time. To hit the mainstream Dom 3 would need a major rework in terms of production, graphics and SP playability, and then a heap of promotional activity.

From their (and shrapnel's) point of view, a cheap to produce game is still pulling in decent revenues at moderate sales with high mark-up two years after release... what's not to like? It’s a nice cash cow building a loyal base while they develop their next product. If in the future they want to take it more seriously they can build Dom 4 and launch it, with a ready made community to test, troubleshoot, create map/scenario content and help drive it.

I'm also guessing that Illwinter get a larger piece of the pie than if they went through a major developer.

From Shrapnel's point of view its even sweeter - as their biggest selling product it must be giving them a lot of their new customers and developers, with follow through to other game sales.

Bigger isn't always more profitable, high margins on moderate sales with low cost is a perfectly acceptable business model.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

No, it's not 15 cents a cup. It's espresso, people don't go to those shops to save money, they go there because it's NOT the same coffee, and it's NOT the same assembly line atmosphere.

Am I bombarded by the same mass media that you are? I doubt it. I'll make one simple point - you have a TV. This is just a guess, but if it's true, it means you watch it, and while that doesn't make you some sort of mind-slave, it makes you much more immersed in the mass media than I am.

And what has this to do with pop culture? I love pop culture. I love shouting out things like "But what about the RUM?", and "Down the garbage chute flyboy!" at appropriate times. Do I like watercolor paintings of Campbell's soup cans? Not so much, but I do like wacky experimental electronica.

You DO pay out the wazoo for the "print" of a painting. Those things you get dirt cheap are called "posters", and they are certainly not "print" quality. The "poster" version of Dominions might be called a "demo", you should give it to your friends.

Pop culture is the fruit, mass media is the farmer. I'll let you figure that one out yourself, since you take offense to me belittling your intelligence. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


In case you hadn't noticed, the prevailing, substantiated, and overwhelming opinion around here is that the current price for Dominions 3 IS in fact a reasonable price. This is not some sort of logical debate, where if you just pull another rabbit out of your arse, you will bend the laws of physics. This is reality, it's not going to change for you that easily.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

You gotta love Belgian beers - berry or otherwise. I'm not exactly unhappy about the location my parents decided to move to shortly after I was born. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

I wouldn't mind having a taste of your supposedly awesome Oregon produce either, mind you.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Considering the time spent on it without feeling "I have nothing left to do in this game", and the interest endlessly renewed by frequent expansion patches and new players to play with, I can only compare Dominions to a MMO, and fact is 55$ for first copy + nothing each month is an extremely small price, when I payed 10 times more for three years on some games.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

That's a very good point Twan. If I was into a MMO game as much as I am into dominions I'd have paid quite a bit in monthly or yearly subscriptions and received pobably about the same level of support from the devs (in the form of fixes and content adds and whatnot).

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Yes, Dom3 is an expensive indie game. A very expensive indie game(don't let us fool ourselves here). But with all the patches(of which many have been the size of an entire expansion) that the developers so kindly have given to us, it's kinda like getting your money back. I just can't believe that I'm living in the same country(I think:) ) as the developers of this game. Astrid Lindgren? Yeah, right! Alfred Nobel? I don't think so. Illwinter Games are my new heroes!

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

"Pretender på tacket", "Thing that should not be på luffen", "Mästerdetektiven Cyclops", "Alla vi barn i Tir na n'Og" "Pippi Vampire Queen går ombord"

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Hear hear! I propose that this become a discussion of very good beer, bracing coffee snobbery, and Mother Mallard's Portable Masterpiece!

All in favor?

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Lol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Don't forget Mästerdetektiven Priest King Blomkvist or Bröderna Hellbind Heart.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Hail Leif and his economics wisdom. Enjoyed reading his perspective which correctly uses econ models. Maximizing sales kills companies as Leif points out.

I wonder if Shrapnel could bundle some games with Dom 3 to offer a price break but I also guess that so many of their other games are so different there may not be any interest.

Say Dom 3, Scallywag and Falklands war for $100.00? I would guess there would be very few takers but it would be interesting to see how many dom 3 players have bought other Shrapnel titles and if they could be induced to do so? I'd guess the crossover is pretty small with the dom 3 title b/c it's way different from the war sims.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

I see a common error in some of these posts.

There are game companies who are developers, shelf-ware, and marketing. Then there are game companies who are production for developers, ordering, and publicity. They are two very different business models and you cannot just jump back and forth so dont bother comparing one to the other.

Games which go to a company as an idea, the company helps develop it, they shelf-ware it, they market it with ads are laying out quite abit of money ahead of sales. The developers dont see any profits sometimes for years. Such games tend to have to meet some basic requirements for things like eye-candy and major copy protection and built-in product failure point (I forget the word for it).

Games which are developed by the programmers, then publicized and made available for ordering are available for instant profit sharing with no pay-back timeframe. Personally, the few games Ive loved which shifted from one business-model publisher to the other have let me down. I have no problem with the way Dominions is being marketed (I also do my part to aid in the publiity side). Im not sure if Dom would benefit from switching. Im also very unsure if we the customers would benefit if they shifted.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

The sad thing is I would personally like to see it cheaper and I could convince more people to buy it if it was, but I can't agree at all with the direction of this thread.

When I bought Dom3 it was quite a layout because I lived in China and as such the shipping was very expensive and it was a whole chunk of my income to buy. I very, very nearly didn't because of the cost. I'm glad I did but I didn't get my money's worth out of it for quite a while and it was definitely a risk.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Yeah, me too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

I don't pretend being an economics expert, or suggest the devs to make the game cheaper or even more expensive... I am sure there are very valid reasons for the pricing choices. Many of you guys talked about them.

For me, having already bought the game, I'd just like to see the game somewhat cheaper, to bring some friends (less likely to take that "leap of faith" someone talked about http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif) to buy it too to play together. For me, it was worth every single penny anyway.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

i like that this thread has shaped into an actual economics argument rather than just a straight out flame war.

says something about the community.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Yeah, it does show class, even if it lacks the entertainment value of a knife-fight.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Not sure about the potential with a bundle - I mean, I already bought Dom3, didn't you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif But perhaps some sort of a bulk special, where if you order 3 copies of any product at the same time, you get a % discount? This would tempt me a bit, as some of those war sims look kind of entertaining, but haven't tempted me that much yet. Also, it would make the "getting multiple friends playing" situation a little easier.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Another one of my favorite games is Total War 2, and I've always imagined that Dominions could totally be created using that engine : )

Not that you'd cut 'n paste minotaurs over pikemen, but that a dominions game could be built using the way TW handles battles with masses of units while still having decent graphics. ^^

Except for perhaps a few minor interface issues and balance issues Dominions 3 really is close to a perfect game. The only thing that can recieve a major improvment is the presentation; the music and the graphics. With that done, look out, Spore http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif (or whatever high-profile strategy game we will see in the future)

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

While I couln't be bothered to read every post (I completely skipped the last 2 pages of posts in here)

maybe the OP should be directed towards the thread where shrapnel explained why the prices are as they where (it was a similar thread with a good reaction from shrapnel.. can't find it atm though.. before I read that I had similar thoughts as the OP.. after it I was convinced shrapnel knew what they where doing... it was very enlightning.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

I think it might have been in Shrapnels Blog tho it might have been linked to here.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

I've a particular interest in wanting no more of this or this sort of threads (the reason being I find them annoying and if you can do it better i think you should start a business yourself and prove it and not whine here, another being that I paid a lot of money for this game so so should the rest of the world (I'm really not a nice guy)

so here is the link with some info. (I'm pretty sure there was a thread somewhere with talk about it but I can't be bothered anymore

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/blog/?s=niche+price

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Indeed.. I dont regret buying it.. But i have more disposable income than most and can eat bad purchases here and there.. And i have in the past i've made the leap of faith on some bad games.

And would love to play this with more of my friends.. But at its current price.. Not going to happen..

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Well if you have money to burn, why not buy a second copy and give it to a friend? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif If they decide they're not into it, pass it along until you hook someone, rinse and repeat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Seems like a better investment of money than, say, buying Two Worlds or Hellgate:London. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Because most of his friends dont live physically near him http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif Kind of hard to snail mail around a copy. Of course I guess if you purchased it the cdkey is all you need, certainly other ways of getting the game alot faster than physically mailing the cd. But then you dont get a nice manual.

And those are horrible examples, hellgate londons company has fallen apart, and I assume you mean WoW, which sucks. But for cheaper than this, we could be playing any number of good strategy games. I pirated dominions 2 to play with a friend, and it convinced me to buy dominions 3 to play with the same friend.

But to get a 3rd into the group, is basically impossible, and its not like BOTH of us arent trying.

Its too expensive.

Besides, its just an MP game anyways, the AI is so horrible that SP is really just a way to check out the races and strategies for MP.

If it was cheaper, fine, lets see they would make less money, but they would have a much larger community. Whats more important, a bottom line, or a community? A community is going to keep sales of a game going alot longer, because people get attracted to communities more than the get attracted to games.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Everybody has a birthday...and what better gift than one that is self-serving? Instead of getting a bowling ball with your name carved in it, get him a copy of Dominions 3 or split the cost with a friend. It's win/win.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

I also think alot of people in this thread dont give dominions enough credit. It might not have the same graphics as the total war series, but theyre that much worse. Dom has appeal that I dont think people realize.

Im the lowest common denominator when it comes to games like this, I play unreal, halflife, quakewars, I like mmos, im in my mid 20s, im not a nerd or a grognard, I buy the movies and the games with the big budget development teams and swoon over the flashy graphics.

I was swayed to this game because I really enjoy playing games with and against other people, Ive played just about every multiplayer game you can think of. I just love being competetive. If I hadnt pirated dom2 to play with a friend who had purchased it, id never have purchased dom3. Ever. So theres a sale due to piracy even. But I dont advocate people running around willy nilly stealing every game they can. If you can purchase it, purchase it. Especially if its an indy game. So I cant just tell people pirate the thing, if you like it, buy it, but the price, certainly forces people to take that route (and hopefully most of them purchase it after they see how great it is) Lowering the price, just sending emails and having interviews and reviews on some good multiplayer strategy game websites, and pbem matching making sites, to remind people who, like me, saw this game first there, saw the price and never looked at it again (till someone i knew took the leap of faith and bought it) and lowering the price, is gonna snag all those people who saw the game, saw the price, and turned their back.

Just look at it this way.

All you guys like all the mods right?

Think about all the potential mods and mod makers out there, who wont buy this game because its too expensive. Think about what youre missing out on.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Pfftt i dont have that much disposable income

And pfft drop 60 on a friend !?!?!?

I dont like any of them nearly that much

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

3 x $45 sales does not necessarily equate to more profit than 1 x $60, only more turnover.

eg if each game cost $40 to produce/market/distribute, then you'd lose $5 on the above scenario.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

It's better for the community that Shrapnel Games stays in business. To stay in business, they have to do profit. They have done it so far, and I doubt they're going to risk that by changing their money-making scheme. Remember, they also have to have enough money left over that they can publish other games, including possible different Illwinter game. You might want to subscribe to the FRAG! newsletter; it will tell you if there are any sales which would allow your friends to grab a copy for less. It also lists the games that have sold more in the last month, and Dominions is pretty much always on the top three. They don't give any numbers, though, so that doesn't tell much.

It's nice to know that average gamers can also appreciate Dominions. I've always felt that this is too much of a niche game for the first-person shooter crowd to get interested.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Err. What? You just put it in an envelope.

It's too expensive for you (well, your friends, anyway).

You're positing a false dilemma. It's clear that Illwinter and Shrapnel can have both the current price and a good (not to say great) community.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Everything has its pros and cons.
If "the Community" is going to be thrown up then wouldnt we have to take into account the difference between a community of people who can afford a $50 game vs those who would show up just because it became a $30 or $19.99 or $5 game? Our player-base seems to have a tendency to be older, more world-experienced, more educated, longer attention span, etc. (not all, but the general population)

Im not completely sure that I would be happier with more people in the community if cheap game was what it took to get them here. The same goes for many of the more drastic suggestions to change this games play, look, delivery, cost, marketing, forum, etc based on what "all the other games" do.

Just a personal unofficial alternative viewpoint to the argument of "it would get us more community"

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

I suspect the "older, more world-experienced, more educated, longer attention span, etc" has more to do with the type of game Dominions is than with the price.

There are plenty of younger, naive, poorly educated, easily bored people who have money to burn, or who's parents will buy them games, but they're not likely to be attracted to Dominions anyway. All depth and little flash doesn't draw that kind of crowd. You might have more pick it up on a whim, but they wouldn't stick.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

yep, I agree with thejeff. what, crysis or painkiller or even better fifa, costing 50 euros when it comes out makes their community full of old, well-educated gentlemen? Don't think so. Many lil' kids nowadays have parents willing to spend lots of money for their toys (toys=even a Honda motorcycle when they're sixteen), for various (and many of them are plain ridiculous) reasons. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

If we are likely to cohabit gently and politely it's not because the game costed a pretty penny that we could affort and the barbarians not ^_^ it's because a slow, intelligent, strategic game isn't likely to attract the bored and aggressive guy out here.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

There are of course exceptions, and I agree on the type of game thing. But I also think that older and educated tends to add to the ability to make such a purchase. Not in each case but enough times to affect the averages.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Gotcha!

:p

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Yeah but you also have 20 threads with someone (usually a different person) on the first page of the forums, who is scolding someone for bad english, or not using the correct slang term for something in the game. Theres posts where people tell people to leave the community because they cant form a complete sentence.

If thats the kind of nerd, grognard, elitist community you want, sure, go ahead and let this stay a niche game. But you go to other strategy game forums and you have a much larger, much more diverse community, where the nerds and grognards are put in their place like they should be, instead of in every thread turning away potential community members with their elitism.

I cant possibly understand the thought process that a smaller, older, community, is better, than a larger, younger, thriving community.

If you love the game so much, youd want to see more and more people exposed to this game, and more and more people purchasing it and modding for it. Thats more likely to prompt a dominions 4, or a real developed expansion, instead of just new races occasionally ,that the current mod makers are more than capable of doing themselves.

Its like the guy who owns the record store, who insults all of his customers over their taste in music, thus turning a business into a hangout for a few likeminded elitests.

Im sure that makes those guys feel great about themselves, but their business is going to fail.

I dont forsee Illwinter still being around in 10 years. Just like I didnt forsee Microprose being around in 10 years after Xcom and MoM.

The same thing will happen to this game, that happened to those games. The company will go out of business, the elitist community will disapate, the game will get cracked and hacked all to hell, a few years from now itll reach its peak of popularity, and the developers wont see a cent for it.

Its only a niche game because you force it to be a niche game.

Re: So no Dominions 4?
 

Theres a real chance for indy developers and "niche" games, to really get out there right now. The PC game community is heralding the end of times, because the new consoles just came out, and sales are down across the board. Add on to that the fact that people are tired of more of the same, and spending 1000s on upgrades every 6 months to play the A+titles, and you have an enviroment where cheaper games, with solid gameplay, with digital distribution and large communities, are going to reign supreme on the PC for some time to come.

PC gamer companies cant compete the same way console game companies do, and they cant compete the way the did just a year ago.

Digital purchasing and downloading of games, episodic content at less than 10 dollars, matchmaking services for multiplayer games, and strong communities are what the PC has to offer that consoles dont. Adapt or die.

Id like to see the people who made this game (and not the people who publish it) make money on this game for the next 20 years. Instead of still playing this game for years to come, while the devs all work at telecom companies to pay the bills, while hackers and pirates, continue to create new content for a game they didnt develop or help support.

Digital distribution is the fastest way to not need a publisher. Then you have more money to spend on an A+ website, instead of something that looks like its an angelfire page from 1995.