Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

How do you dare calling me troll just for having made a widely recognizeable joke about a funny thing happened here in the forum.
Boy, if you are full of yourself with all your big words and quotations, at least don't start seeing enemies everywhere.
I don't know you and I would never have tried to offend what you say in such a cheap way. Learn some respect, and some auto-irony. You attacked Jim Morrison for what was clearly a joke and now me. You are not untouchable by irony, man, nobody is.

Peace.

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

I still don't see what's wrong with putting The Ark on your SC, aside from the obvious fact that there's only one of it. The Ark will kill unlimited numbers of zombies AFAIK, so even if you fail your MR check against VotD it does nothing except maybe make you waste some gems in battle.

-Max

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

What's wrong, Max, is that obviously if you disagree with Kuritza, you haven't actually read his posts, or you would have already stopped trying to coddle him with reason and logic

Kuritza - I read every damned word, and my comprehension is excellent, thank you. Nothing anyone can say will appease you, because you got extraordinarily unlucky ONCE.

The most change I would think that VoTD needs, is to make it require astral travel by the mage, to actually "lead" the spirits to the offending leader. This way, they risk having their cord cut just as if they performed a Mind Hunt. But again, I don't really think even that is necessary.

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

Do not engage in personal attacks.

-Max
(Channelling Strider)

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

>> How do you dare calling me troll just for having made a widely recognizeable joke about a funny thing happened here in the forum.
Yes, yes, I've seen this joke turn an attempt of Bandar Log discussion into 'Haha its all monkey PD, dont listen to this crap'. I show respect when I see it, shall we respect each other perhaps? Lets stop the 'how dare you' thingie for starters, and be civil. Sorry for the 'troll' line.

Max - that a great idea, if a little bit tricky around turn 20. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Jim, I point that people dont read my posts when they dont. I was explaining about F9/A9 Ermor and a Caelum pretender, a few posts later you tell me 'Was it his pretender? So, you're mad that his pretender cast a spell that killed your pretender?' Doesnt look like you 'read every damned word'. Please, read what I say if we are to discuss anything. And I really like your idea.

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

Ah, then. Around turn 20, MR should do fine. 150 pearls to spam VotD through MR is a huge investment at that point.

-Max

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

6 pearls, Max, just 6. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif And it happens much more often that it might seem. Just a few days ago I had my 31 MR ghost king paralyzed by three illithids spamming mind blast.

The difference is, I knew that illithids are supposed to spam mind blast and that I open my GK to a huge risk. I took that risk voluntarily, I could opt to avoid them instead. Illithids dont come after you shaking tentacles and frying your brain when you cower in fear in your capitol, doing research and forging items. Zombies do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

How can you reliably kill an MR 27 thug with VotD and 6 pearls? That's just a fluke. I'm not sure if 150 is the right number, but it's way more than 6.

-Max

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

Has anyone run tests on the MR part of this? I believe the MR roll for Mind Hunt Soul slays is easier than for battlefield soul slays. Is there a chance VotD works the same way?

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

Well, its not that reliable... Happened to me, though I admit I was unlucky. It also happened to me when I didnt knew VotD is bugged. Imagine my surprise.
Its a gamble, but its a gamble with very high stakes. Too high, in my opinion, and I dont like the fact that you have to gamble wherever you like it or not, as long as your opponent is willing to pay 3 pearls.

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

Slight correction: your opponent can *force* a gamble. His job is to mess you up, that's why he's called the enemy. I don't really like VotD thematically (I think you should wake up from the nightmare at round 50) but it's not a problem IMO if your opponent has options for low-probability instant kills. Dominions is explicitly designed so that a lowly slinger can kill a Doom Horror with a single stone with the right rolls. Total invulnerability is boring and unthematic.

(I wish resistances didn't go up to 100% for the same reason.)

-Max

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

A slinger cannot. But I was like OMG once, when barbarians killed my Archdevil. He stood amongst them imprevious, and then just died... It took me almost an hour to notice that my opponent has armed one of barbarian chiefs with a flamebeau and he scored an instant kill. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

A slinger can, that's the whole point of open-ended die rolls.

-Max

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

A VoTD honey pot is just that.

An SC that you specically kill chaff with, to keep his kill count high. Then you outfit him with your favorite methods of undead slaying.

Keep your VotD honeypot with your other SC.. and any VotD cast on the territory hits the honeypot.

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

So what do you propose as an unlimited-amounts-of-undead-slayer-around-turn-20-to-40?

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

What kind of undead are those that attack during the dream?

Having carcator the pocket lich would serve as double protection though.. he would kill off many creatures on his own and with death 5 he can put a serious hurt on a whole lot of undead http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Would having a high reach weapon and blood vengence work very well? It seems like that would kill off a whole lot of the undead in a hurry plus make it less likely an enemy spellcaster will want to try and do much to the sc...

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

The only way to kill off *unlimited* amounts of undead is BE. Fire Brand + Quickening + Charcoal Shield *might* be able to handle around 300.

-Max

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

Well, if they hit you with it again, you've now got to face 600.

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

That was kind of my problem with the honeytrap idea.

You have to be able to mass produce SCs capable of dealing with first enough chaff to attract it's attention over the real SC, then you're going to want the above Firebrand, quickness, Fire Shield combo to actually kill the undead, plus as much MR as possible to reduce the number of VotD that actually affect you -- to reduce the doubling affect of VotD.

And you've got to have this guy, not hidden, wherever you actually use your real SC, so he's got to participate (and survive) in your SC's real battles as well. So no teleporting you're SC around unless your honeypot can follow, etc, etc.

At this point he has to be a significant investment, that you're going to regret losing.


As far as BE for killing unlimited undead. There's no reliable way to do that more than once a turn. They take gems and if multiple VotDs get through, you'll burn them out on the first one. (Though a guy with the Ark should work, but that's hardly early and you only get one.)

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

Right, being able to kill 300 undead is a mitigator to get you further into midgame (you can survive one failed MR check). It's not immunity to VotD like the Ark is.

-Max

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

Hmmm I would think a quickened hastened charcoal shielded regenerating trampler would do much more.

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

And Strider is in full agreement. Keep it civil or stay quiet.

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

This trampler has to be undead or elemental royalty with base encumberance 0. Undead are immune to VotD.

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

You don't actually have to be enc 0. It's possible to kit out a Size 5 Adonim, for instance, so that he can trample 3 or 4 squares worth of size 2 troops per turn without ever going above fatigue 14.

-Max

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

You're missing the point K. VOTD the above mentioned or similar. I believe he could take out 600 or more undead in 50 turns.

Roughly (50x18) = 900 squares of movement. = 600 squares of units. Plus the charcoal square will kill a good bit.
Sure, you lose a turn for hastened...

Equip or cast items that generate battle field effects. wrathful skies... You could do a lot more.

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

Where does 50x18 come from? Size 5 trampling Size 2 is 3/4 squares of trampling per turn, regardless of base AP.

-Max

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

Undead Mastery would work pretty well, I think.

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

Interesting. Where do you get that?

I presumed quickened and hasted, and properly booted that the SC would have 36 move or so, translating into a maximum of 18 squares per turn of trampling.
Each square could have numerous size 2 opponents - that is true. However, I also ignore the fact that the defender could succed at avoiding being trampled. The 50 just refers to the # of turns.

And yes, of course I agree undead master would work - however, it is late in the game.

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

I'm not sure how the movement is calculated Chris, but a 36 move critter will not trample 18 squares a turn, that would be..... insanely overpowered in most situations.

Also, that much trampling is enormously exhausting. It's not frolicking in a field, it's smashing bodies with your feet - even harder than squashing grapes, and ask anyone, it's hard work making wine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

I don't like the doubling-up of dead on multiple casts, since it's supposedly already the eternal souls of the victims who attack. Other than that I think it's a great spell.

For your pretender (or any commander really), will Ritual of Returning (or Virtue) or Twiceborn work? I'm worried that death-by-turn-limit won't trigger these effects.

Non-pretenders killed by VotD should be in the HoF, right? Ritual of rebirth is pretty nice, mummies are tough dudes. And mummies are immune to VotD.

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

Even your pretender would be in HoF, just wouldn't have a Heroic Ability. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Can they be brought back with Rebirth? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif That would be very strange.....

Also Returning sounds interesting..... But you really do have to retire them from active duty to pull that off - kinda hard to chew up chaff if you're always flying back home. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

Why do you say that Jim? I do realize I am rounding up in that area, but not egregiously - I only claimed that such a pretender could kill 500 or 600 undead.

36 ap in a straight line (non diagonally) 2ap when you are hasted per square = ergo a max of 18.

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

Trampling is more than just moving, AFAIK. Size affects how much you can trample per turn, but I don't know how.

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

Non-undead trampler will get too much exauston and fail.
Undead are immune.
'Honeypot' fails.

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

Undead isn't necessarily enc 0 (Shadow Vestals are the only example I can think of), and enc 0 doesn't make you undead. There aren't that many enc 0 non-undead commander summons, though.

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

Exactly.

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

Pretenders can't be turned into mummies. They can be called back from the dead of course, so have fun VotDing that 0-path Wrym, it'll just cost it some gear.

How about immortals? Does the assassination bug leave them dead if they get VotD'd?

You don't have to retire from active duty with 'Ritual of Returning' in effect. It only triggers when you take damage. I'm kind of expecting that 'death by turn 50' won't trigger the ritual though, and instead would leave you just dead. I don't expect that you'd actually take combat damage from the VotD combat.

Edit: About the 'Honeypot' plan ... I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense with the current VotD implementation, since surviving a VotD by killing everything doubles the amount of undead in the next VotD battle.

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

Chris - as Endo said, Trampling is not the same as moving. I also think it is size based somehow. Example being that once elephants are mired in melee, they only trample 4-5 squares. Minotaurs and Trogs trample even less. Isn't there a movement penalty for "disengaging"? If so, that's actually it, as every time you trample, you move away from some enemies.

VFB - It's really hard to kill hundreds of chaff without taking a single point of damage. I am sure it's very annoying to be 150 corpses into a large army, and see that little red 3 pop up, and your beasty *poofs*. DRN being what it is, you are guaranteed to take a little damage here and there if you are completely surrounded. Maybe not much, but probably not 0. As far as the honeypot itself, I believe that Chris' idea was that after you defeat the first VoTD, that you load that guy up with insane MR gear, and just have him travel around with your next awesomest SC. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif That way his 30 MR or whatever is so close to never failing, that your opponent may never get him at all.

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

Jim is more or less right. My contention is there are many ways of dealing with VoTD.

A honey pot is one of them. How you create the honeypot is up to you.

As for trampling, not being strictly movement - I think you're wrong. But I think trample defenses do consume movement. Might have to dddd it and see if the log gives any info.

Re: VOTD-Still like it
 

You can also add Boots of long strides to reduce the cost of movement and make the unit trample more squares. With MR 30 the probabilities run in your favor, if they use the spell against you it's tying a mage (or 3+ to give them some chances) and some gems for many turns.

However I still think that the spell is not "correct" (even knowing that it is WAD), and it's fantastic that it's one of the few things that I do not like of the game.