Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

K- Seriously, no matter how many times you say it taking an SC pretender does not in fact hurt your gold or (generally) even resource availability in the first year.

Your statement that the 6 starets that you start buying on turn 7 after getting exarchs will somehow make up for not having 12 starets by starting to buy them on turn 1 is also nonsensical.

Exarchs can't have bodyguards without additional equipment. Having enough research, gems and forge turns to have teleport, battle magic and a fleet of flying carpets on turn 17 after you recruit 6 exarchs to start seems unlikely.

There's nothing at all stopping you from getting some smiters when you have an SC if you have to, but passing up starets for exarchs is a pretty short-term strategy given the amazing research potential of the starets.

Jim- Given the lack of evidence I'm gonna have to go with the opinions of MP vets that have some wins under their belt until some other strat proves effective in a competitive MP setting. Let me know when you substantiate your claims of scalemonsters being the way to go.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

I'm not proposing one strategy is significantly better than another. I am simply arguing that there is no concrete evidence that one strategy is significantly better than another. They all have their weaknesses, which I think I have shown adequately. Obviously if you want to take my assertions as claims that an awake SC is an invalid strat, then you are free to denounce me as not experienced enough to take part in the discussion - but to do so, is simply to sidestep what I am even trying to express.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

K,

Thank you for your reply and free advice.

For your information, I have played test games against the AI using both strategies (eparch and awake pretender) and find the latter to be superior (and NOT just because it is better against the AI). Nevertheless, in deference to your ability (I can tell from your comments in other threads that you are a good and experienced player – certainly more than semi-competent!) I shall take another look and reserve my judgment. Our differences seem minor and might be no more than player preference anyway. i.e. both strategies requires compromises and it is a question of which is a better compromise.

I should, however, point out a couple of points that you seem to have overlooked in your comments:

Taking an awake pretender can still leave enough points to get good scales – the only significant trade-off is production vs sloth. The value of production diminishes over time. So in this respect you are not getting much lasting value by not choosing an awake pretender. Alternately you could invest the points in magic paths, but Bogarus’ recruitable mages already provide sufficient magic ability, so again the trade-off for taking an awake pretender is not that great.

Giving up 5-6 turns of staret recruitment in the beginning IS a major handicap. Sure you could catch-up, but you would otherwise be way ahead! What do you gain in return? Extra design points that might not make a major difference – AND your early expansion would still be slower than with an awake pretender.

Finally, using an awake pretender gives you more flexibility, not less, in the early game. With an awake pretender, you can still recruit eparchs if the situation still calls for it. Without an awake pretender, you will not have the option of calling for its help.

Anyway, as I said, I shall take another look instead of debating this further.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Micah,

You have beaten me in stating most of my points and put it far more succinctly than I could have. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Uh, so an Awake SC God is worth what.... maybe one province a turn for 10 turns before you hit serious opposition? So, if you can make an extra army early who is capable of doing that, then the effect is exact same.

Seriously, the Smiter strategy works as well as having an SC but you don't have to kill your longterm game to do it. I don't know why people resist the idea.

Starets are pretty expensive. With your bad scales and SC god, you won't be able to afford them for long.

SC gods are a short-term strategy, but good scales pay off in both the short term and the long.

Great research means nothing if you don't have the troops to protect your mages. Good scales provide troops, and an SC God is just an investment that ends the instant that someone drops a Thaum 4 Vengeance of the Dead onto him or gets a Fear-based Assassin to cause him to route during an Assassination attempt.

Lets not also forget that a big research bulge and small army bulge makes you a target for other players.

And on a final note, are you seriously trying to tell me that Con4(Carpets of Flying) and Thaum3(Teleport) are not doable by turn 16 with Bogarus? Seriously? Maybe you won't have the gems and need to go cheap with Boots of Flying so that your eparch gets mapmove 2, but the ability to do it is unquestioned. Run a quick test and see for yourself how easy it can be.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

I suppose we disagree on the definition of the word "substantiate".

I'm out though, I somehow doubt I am the only one getting aggravated by this discussion.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

R'lyeh doesn't have a great army either, and that's what I used. I did not see Bogarus's pretender. The point being that an average army (if that) was able to dominate Bogarus without an awake pretender extremely easily going into turn 10, before R'lyeh Dominion effects even came into play.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Jim- The evidence is the weight of people's experience and educated guesses. You can't say that an imprisoned magicless pretender with LA Ermor and maxed scales isn't a disproven strategy because no one's tried it yet. Obviously it isn't a good strategy.

I haven't seen a thing in this thread that would make me think about NOT taking an SC with Bogarus when I play them in a normal dominions game situation, so I disagree with your assertion that you've adequately shown that another strategy might be better. Yes, it's hardly an instant-win formula, but it sure as heck is the best option you've got IMO.

If you really want those production scales just take a PoD, you've got the points to go O3/P3/C3/G1/Misf2/Magic1 with dom9 and D4. Those are pretty excellent scales, especially with the cold preference.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Doubting someone's word on something like that is definitely insulting. I mean, it's not like he claimed he had a girlfriend or something. We're not in middle school here.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

It is nice to meet someone who can intelligently disagree with me and still be very civil. It is refreshing.

My last point is this: Bogarus's good troops need lots of resources, and their substandard troops need little. Perhaps Bogarus's perceived weakness is because few people see this and they insist on low Production and recruiting a Staret every turn until they lose?

I believe the nation is a trap for the inexperienced. It invites you to destroy yourself with a single good tactic when tactical diversity is the only common trait among the best players.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Consider this...by spending first 6 turns on recruiting OLD, 0-leadership smiters not only do you handicap your research significantly, but also dont search your lands for magic sites, compromising your endgame viability even further.
And Jim - I know its just my word, but at least you can consider it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Dom 10 Wyrm, W3E3, drain 2, dont remember the rest. Research to enchantment 1 for breath of winter (simply a must), alt 2 for quicken self, conj 3 for earthpower, alt 3 for ironskin also helps, constr 4 for some items. Later on such pretender can search for magic sites normally invisible to Bogarus and summon Beregini with Nature picks (they can also forge clams). Once empowered with Blood he summons Ice Devils, Father Illearth and forges Bloodstones. Maybe not the best start possible, but at least its relatively safe and offers some lategame diversification.
What I really missed is nature 4 bless, of course... cant have it all.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Drain 2 seems like a very solid choice given Bogarus's high-powered researchers.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

But you do search your provinces. You just do it six turns later....and that causes you to lose how many gems?

I estimate that is probably costs a total of 80 gems of maybe four types. This seems like a lot, but it really isn't by endgame standards (and in early game it's not like you have anything good to spend it on).

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

K- Look at my example scales for an awake PoD. Note how they are not in fact remotely close to being bad.

The supposed SC counters you just listed are more straw men as well. A PoD is immune to Vengeance, and every single pretender has 30 morale, so fear is pretty unlikely to bother them much.

And yes, I am saying that if you start researching on turn 7 like you suggest that having enough research to have construction 4 (360 rp) + teleport (200 rp) + evo 5 (560) for actual useful battle magic as opposed to having your mages sit around casting blink + conj 3 200 for phoenix power is pretty much impossible, since that's 1320 RP. Researching starting on turn 7 you'll only have about 660 RP if all you do is research after your 10th staret researches for a turn. Add a bit for magic scale, still not enough.

OTOH, if you start making starets on turn 1 you'll actually have enough for all of that with some to spare for site searching. 1440 total RP after your 15th Staret researches for a turn. More than twice as much research. TWICE AS MUCH. That's probably got something to do with the resistance you're describing to your exarch spam idea. Sure, its fine if you're desperate, but it starts looking really obsolete right about turn 15 when you're losing out on casting falling fires and soul slays instead of smites.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

What I meant is, when you dont produce mages during the initial 6 turns, first mages you make will have to choose between site-searching or researching - making the gap even worse, be it research gap or magic sites gap.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Oh man. I just have to comment.

I've been extremely happy with my air4/earth5 dom 9 pretender for Bogarus in Kingmaker. Since you have air shield from the get-go he doesn't die to any indy province. If you script him right, he can even take on blood vine provinces.

I've been running him around since the beginning of time with zero equipment, and he only gets more amazing when you add onto it. Unlike PoD he can run right up front from the beginning. He's also 100% fire resistant meaning he can go toe to toe with sacreds using a fire bless.

Personally I would never recommend that someone use expensive, mapmove one, old age smiters as an answer to Bogarus's military problems which net zero research. In the early game they have enough trouble expanding, but a cyclops like I described is amazing. I had myself at the top of the expansion chart with him at the beginning of the game.

Also, you can research your way towards alteration two in less time then it would take the enemy to get ontop of you, giving you access to ironskin, and mistform. Throw in summon earth power and you have an early game SC.

And like Micah said, you still have great scales giving you tons of cash. I'm using O3S3G3M-2

Jazzepi

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

I can see that Bogarus doesn't have an obvious troop tactic. There's no great bless unit, the archery is mediocre, and there's no hydra-like monster. But they are certainly seem *adequate*. They've got solid infantry, and knights that can add some big punch if you crank a few out.

If you've taken sloth and can pretty much only recruit the Voi, you would be asking for trouble without an SC pretender. But I suspect you could hold enemies off with the quality troops. Add lots of very cheap voi archers behind a decent front line and it should be pretty effective. Shouldn't it?

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Starets have a 2.5% chance at F3. After recruiting them for 20 turns, you've got a solid 40% chance of landing one...about the same time you're accessing Flaming Arrows. Voi archers are 8g...

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Relying on archer strategies is dangerous though as about the time you pull off flaming arrows and the F3 mage your foes might also be getting arrow fend, mist, staff of storms / storm, darkness...

But it is something to consider depending on who you're fighting. Just seems like archers have a large number of counters as opposed to something like darkness, for example, which is pretty tricky to deal with.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Jazzepi

Maybe I've done something wrong but your build, even with cold 3 (which you didn't state but i took it as implicit) still gives me -37 design points http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Agreed, particularly in LA. I personally wouldn't bother recruiting a single Voi archer until an F3 shows up. But when it did, I'd immediately puke out as many Voi as possible and rant/rave about my devastating ability to rain down fiery death. At worst, it'd force my opponents to develop Arrow Fend, Mist, Staff of Storms, Storm, Darkness, instead of something they'd rather be researching...at the cost of, what, $500 gold? Certainly better spent than on the rest of the crap they've got.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

2 communion slaves and Phoenix Power and your F2 mage is already at the F4 needed, seems silly to worry about playing the long odds when you can leverage that very early if you want.

But I forgot, I was going to stay out of this because I'm too inexperienced to know what works. <3

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Thanks for the math. That's useful in many circumstances, and it also got me to go through some math of my own. Probabilities, exponents, logarithms... Brrr! It's been a while.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Yeh, the scales are decent but that guy is not an SC. I ran several test games and he died somewhere between turn 4 and 8 when he accidentally hit a province with Calvary.

Maybe on turn 12 or 13 when you have some equipment for him he is decent, but the risks you are taking with that guy are pretty big.

Yes, one of the potential SCs can't be affected by one of the potential counters, and all are a little resistant to another.

Crossbowman do perfectly fine if you don't have very high armor or Air Shield. Calvary don't even have a counter since they dump their payload of damage on turn 1 or 2.

In fact, the sheer number of SC counters in the LA are too numerous to mention. Baalz's LA Atlantis guide shows that even base troops have a good chance of killing an SC if you try.

Actually, I never said Evo5 and Conj3 in addition to those other Paths (and eParchs are the H3s, not the H2 eXarchs).

I also don't think that Falling Fires is a great solution when nations generally have very high amounts of armor, but I get your point (and considering Bogarus's communions potential, deadly magic is actually much closer than you'd expect if you go some other route like Thaum 5 for Leeching Darkness).

But, here's a little test game where I was just tooling around and not planning it out too much, and I have all of those things by turn 21 even after I made dumb mistakes like forgetting to set mages to research or attacking provinces with too little troops because I forgot to check if I had blockers. I'm sure with a little more practice with Bogarus and more aggressive play I could cut it down to 17 turns, search more provinces for sites, and probably conquer an enemy (I have several armies doing nothing for around 9 turns). Considering that I said Turn 17 to 19, I'm actually not far off from my estimate.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

And have Mapmove 1. This means that they generally won't be any good for attacking armies who need to be reinforced, so I don't think an early Flaming Arrows strategy is really a great idea if you intend to use the Voi.

You'd be better off having high production and making indie Woodsman archers who are Mapmove 2, resource cheap, and have a full three more points of Precision.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

<font color="brown">Particularly in the LA, </font>flaming short bows aren't really an offensive weapon, they're a deterrent. They say, "I've got 12 volleys of flaming death waiting for you behind my walls. Perhaps you should look elsewhere." And Bogarus needs its neighbors looking elsewhere until ~year 4.

Agema was looking for an obvious troop tactic. 8g archers + flaming arrows seemed obvious to me.

<font color="brown"> edit </font>

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

I dont really understand the fuss about 2.5% chance for F3 starets. F2 is enough to cast flaming arrows as long as you have phoenix power and an extra gem, afaik.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Yes, K, a naked PoD has issues with cav, and archers as well. You also get scouting reports for a reason. Pick a prov without either on turn 2 and make an enchanted shield, alchemizing for the 5th pearl. Turn 3 you should hopefully have another province you can take that's adjacent to your cap...doesn't matter which one, since your PoD flies. Have your PoD kill the indies and your starting scout bring the shield over and give it to your Prince. He's now pretty much able to solo any indie province between the arrow blocking and the increased defense to stand up to a cavalry charge until the fear kicks in. Avoid the cav altogether if you want, there plenty of other stuff for your flying pretender to pick from. And this is just using national resources, you can do better if you trade.

If by "a little resistant" you mean "completely immune to" then yes, you're right about fear assassins. Fear doesn't work on morale-30 units, end of story.

There are a nuber of effective SC counters, it's true, but if you're letting troops that can kill your SC get into combat with your SC you're not using it very well. Flight is your friend.

And no, you didn't say anything about evo-5, but you did say "powerful magic" so I figured falling fires or something of that level was what you had in mind, since teleporting in mages to spam mind burn, rage and bonds of fire is pretty laughable. Maybe Flaming Arrows, which is level 4 instead of 5, but still, my point is that you're losing over half of your research by going with early priests. You'll have to forgive the naming confusion on my part.

And sure, you might be able to have all that by turn 17, but I bet I can have it quicker than that with an awake pretender and still have a highly mobile raider on top of a well-developed nation.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

And that's no more interesting or effective than setting up smite armies to do the same. The effect of "more provinces" is the exact same, you just don't have to pay hundreds of design points for it.

I'm not quite sure what you are talking about because I've seen Pretenders route. If you route during an assassination, you die.

So you are saying that you'll avoid combat with this SC god.... then why even have it? It is still vulnerable to teleport ambushes and other enemy magic, so it just looks like a liability from my standpoint.

I think you must be joking with me because I can't imagine you do not know about Thaum 5 which in total gives you Gateway, Teleports, Communions, Soul Slay, Confusion, Leeching Darkness and a host of other spells that can seriously alter a war or battlefield. Being able to move armies from your castles straight to a war zone is a great power, but if powerful battlemagic is only a Communion and some equipment away, that's just icing on the cake.

Your "well developed nation" is going to get twice as many afflicted old mages every winter because you went G1 instead of G3 (1/3 instead of 1/6 by my tests), and who knows how much income you'll have lost from not having provinces grow as fast (and how much you'll lose once you start blood hunting).

But it is a good thing you have a flying raider. With your Misfortune, you'll need it to put down the barbarian and knight invasions that crop up even in an Order 3.

Whatever. I've made my point. I'll let this go.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

You don't even need them to be F3.

F2 scarlets + 1 gem + phoenix power does it.

Jazzepi

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Sorry. The build is as follows.

A4
E5
Dom9
O3
S3
C2
G3
Misfortune2
Drain2

Jazzepi

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

K - The proof is in the pudding, as they say. You've got a total of 1 win vs 4 other opponents in a newbie game, whereas I think I've got a pretty solid track record of MP wins. You can present all of the misleading evidence you'd like, but at the end of the day you simply don't have the same level of understanding of the game as some of the MP vets, myself included.

Take, for example, your statement about fear. Pretenders are immune to it, at least from everything I've tested and seen. This is a clear-cut issue of game mechanics. They can and do rout when they are injured badly enough, or when they are part of a general army rout, but fear doesn't bother them. It's hard to truly grasp the subtleties of strategy decisions when you don't even grasp the game mechanics.

Your statements about efficiency and general game flow are also flawed, although it is somewhat harder to prove, especially when you swap around your arguments. You said "And on a final note, are you seriously trying to tell me that Con4(Carpets of Flying) and Thaum3(Teleport) are not doable by turn 16 with Bogarus" and all of a sudden you start talking about having thaum-5, which is another 420RP, and Leeching Darkness, which is a D3 spell when you only have D1 mages. Sure, I guess you can communion together enough mages to get that to go off, but it's a pretty lousy idea in terms of efficiency. Plus you don't have S3 on the D starets without a 10% random, so you can't actually teleport in at that point.

Teleport ambushes and other magic can kill a pretender, it's true. Saying that's a liability is like saying having a queen is bad in chess because your opponent will be trying really hard to eliminate her. Resources are finite, and if he's aiming his magic at your pretender he's not aiming it at your other assets.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Interesting fallacy.

When I've played almost a hundred games and won just over 7% of them, do I get to dismiss people's facts like that too?

You make a lot of assumptions, like assuming I was talking about the fear mechanic instead of the routing mechanic. I'll admit I wasn't clear.

From that you make assumptions about my ability which are not warranted, and you do so in an attempt to "win" the argument.

Here's my advice: if you are going to try to win an argument, do so on the merits and not by attempts to discredit your opponent. Personal attacks don't work, and they make you look like you don't have valid arguments to counter your opponent.

Again, you make a lot of assumptions. You assume I'm talking about taking Starets into battle when I never actually said that. I said:

"Then you send your Eparchs into position for your first war. By then you have a second castle pumping out Masters of Names for great research, and when you meet your enemies around turn 17 or 19 you teleport in with powerful magic backing you up and if you were smart you now have those Eparch on Carpets of Flying with something interesting as guard."

One out of four Masters of Names can actually Teleport natively if they have the right picks, and the others can use items like Crystal Coins and boosters in their non-Astral Paths to cast bigger magics. Of course, bringing in an Occultist to use his native Death magic will mean that he'll walk or fly instead of boosting his Astral because it is not efficient without Starshine Skullcaps, but his Communion slaves (and Blood Slaves) can all be Teleported in.

Considering that I showed that a half-hearted game I played can get Thaum 3, Conj3, Evo5, and Con4 by Turn 20 (my mistake, it was not 21 in the test game I posted as I said earlier) means that by your very criteria a flippant comment about Teleporting in on Turn 17-19 with "powerful magic" is definitely within the realm of possibility. I'm sorry that I confused you and the issue by talking about how efficient it is to save research points by using the powerful magic in Thaumaturgy where someone had already invested points as per my example.

Of course, this example proves that instead of diverting points into Conj and Evo you could also spend the 820 points gained on something else like taking one of the Paths I talked about from 3 or 4 to 6, or picking different Paths at 3 and 5.

To summarize my points:

-Yes, an Awake SC is valuable right up until you contact an MP player who gets tired of you raiding their back provinces.

-Yes, the ten to twenty of gems they spend to kill your god are a real expenditure, but probably not worth hundreds of design points that you are paying for the privilege(and the equipment you'll lose when they do and which may actually mean that you lose more gems than them).

-Is it "necessary"? Clearly not considering your other strengths like smite armies, especially if you must sacrifice scales like Production or Growth.

-Is this the kind of discussion I like, but which clearly aggravates people to the point of personal attack? Clearly yes.

My apologies. I'll stop reading this thread so that I'm not tempted to post another response.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

"and an SC God is just an investment that ends the instant that someone...gets a Fear-based Assassin to cause him to route during an Assassination attempt."

You're clearly talking about fear mechanics there, not general rout.

You also vastly underestimate the difficulty of killing a properly cared for SC.

But how about this, instead of arguing over theory why don't we play a few duels? Caelum seems like a good rush nation to play against with their mammoths, but that's just a suggestion. We can swap off playing as Bogarus and see who fares better. Willing to step up and test your scale build?

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Yes he was talking about fear mechanics. I have no idea why he'd seriously try and pretend he wasn't.

But are you sure fear doesn't effect 30 morale creatures Micah? I might test this tomorrow.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

I should add that I agree with Micah - this is in many ways a 4X game, and getting an awake SC is a good way to bootstrap into some early expansion as Bogarus.

To an extent, I also agree with K - this SC God does not answer the question of what you do when someone rushes you (die), but nothing about having an awake SC God prevents you from using your national forces and priests, if those will be sufficient to blunt the rush, you'll probably have more of them on turn 12 with a SC than with super-scales; this is especially true as you can afford an awake SC and still have positive scales.

Consider the obvious:
Awake Dom 10 Prince of Death, Earth 3, Death 5
Order 3, Sloth 1, Cold 3, Growth 1, Misf 2, Magic 1

vs the king of scales:
Imprisoned Dom 7 Forge Lord, Fire 4, Water 3, Earth 3
Order 3, Prod 3, Cold 3, Growth 3, Misf 1, Magic 1

Now this guy is a *fantastic* God. He's got great scales, a forge bonus, he makes rune smashers and earth items and staves of elemental mastery all for cheap.

Fact remains - in a MP game, I'm taking the awake SC God every time.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

[quote]
K said:


Uh, so an Awake SC God is worth what.... maybe one province a turn for 10 turns before you hit serious opposition? So, if you can make an extra army early who is capable of doing that, then the effect is exact same.

Seriously, the Smiter strategy works as well as having an SC but you don't have to kill your longterm game to do it. I don't know why people resist the idea.

[quote]



Because it obviously isn't true. Your smiters will start with old age. Your smiters are essentially single purpose. Your smiters are fragile.

An awake pretender may be a forger, an invader, a site searcher. He has more hitpoints, wo't generally fall to a starting assassin, and has superior mobility. He can transport troops.

Anyway. what might be fun is a 5 territory vs 5 territory head to head..

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

I made 2 D10 cyclops since it was the easiest way to get a bunch of fear quickly and had them swing away at each other for a battle, they lasted the full 50 rounds before the attacker ran away, so I'm pretty sure. I just added 3 behemoths to one side and didn't get a rout, nor did his morale number drop off of 30. QM said there might be some weird situations where it might work (spells maybe?) but it seems quite rare at best and likely impossible. Certainly not something a single assassin could trigger.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Hunh. I've been confused about this for a while, since Baalz posted about using Send Lesser Horror to kill SCs, and this post made me finally good and check it out... and it appears that Morale 30 does make you (virtually?) immune to fear. Conclusions:

1.) Thanks Micah. If nothing else, you straightened that issue out for me.

2.) I love Banquet for the Dead even more now. Not only do Ditanim have Fear +0, but they're immune to fear themselves. E10N6 Ditanu are cool.

-Max

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Excuse the question of a poor n00b.

Doesn't a H3 priest destroy an assassin? I mean, he is already set to smite on turn 1 no? And surely he isn't on the front line? One turn, possibly two for the assassin before landing the killin blow, shouldn't he already be smited and gone?

For the main theme, I don't understand why wouldn't both the ways be viable - I think we're used to see nations played in 2 or even more different ways I think. Surely the SC provides more "moral deterrent" then the smiters - but with DrPraetorious' build and scales, for example, and K's strategy, I think you would expand almost as faster but not trashing your mid-to-late game's national advantage of a strong research with a Drain-2...

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Smite has a magic resistance check, the assassin may survive. Besides, few people will make an assassin early on when there are more important things to make, and they won't be preferentially aiming for H3 priests, I suspect.

* * *

I think people are overlooking what K originally stated. He wasn't suggesting Bogarus would be rushproof without an awake SC pretender. I think he was suggesting partly he'd take the chance of non-rushing neighbours for an advanced mid to late game. I'd imagine the likes of mammoth-wielding Caelum or dual-bless Mictlan would fancy rushing Bogarus whether or not they had an SC.

To this end, Bogarus could avoid sloth scales (making the points back and more on a cheaper pretender and delayed arrival) and build stronger troops instead.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Sloth scales aren't going to make a beans worth of difference. A pile of crap is still crap.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

But armored crap is more difficult to squash ^_^

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Except with Sloth 3 you won't be able to recruit anything but Voi in any numbers. In that case, you are better off with indie troops - but wait, you won't get any significant number of indies with Sloth 3 either.

Tell you one thing, if I'm looking for a rush target, a Sloth 3 Bogarus with a PoDis much higher on the list (the technical term is "top") than a Prod 3 Bogarus who can actually field something other than mages and his PoD.

Of course, if your argument is that everyone who takes a PoD is an amazing player who will raid their assailant to death, and everyone who goes max scales is a n00b who will run their cavalry under your elephants..... then you win the debate, hooray for you.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

While I'm on the awake SC camp, I certainly agree with Jim and K that good scales are also necessary for Bogarus. Taking sloth would certainly lead into disaster, imo, because then one would really have nothing to stop an invasion and single pretender now matter how though won't do here.

I've also wondered why do people tend to ignore Bogarus' national troops. Sure, the voi are trash but the peshti spearmen and various cavalry look rather good to me.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

I have you ever considered using the production scale to build lots and lots of "crap" and then back it up with mages who then cast boosters on the crap and then bombard the enemy from safety (behind the crap)? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Because a peak protection of 13 is considered rather pathetic in LA. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

But the Voi are horrendous. The other troops, while not impressive, have their strengths that can be leveraged. I have no idea what these guys do with their small Voi armies when their opponent has a PoD and can route their military in the first round of combat.....

But, different playstyles. I'd have completely abandoned this fracas, if I didn't think most of the "awake SC is absolutely necessary for Bogarus" camp were being totally ridiculous about their denouncement of other ways to take it. I never said an awake SC won't cut it. All I ever said was that you give up so much, and create enough new weaknesses, that it is not the clear cut and obvious choice that some people make it out to be.

Call me "inexperienced" all you want, winning with LA Ermor doesn't make you an expert on Bogarus. Only winning with Bogarus can do that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif And not even, but it gets you closer to that title anyways. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Morale is an issue I grant you that but you do have access to fanaticism by making an Eparch prophet. It also seems kind of thematic as well taking him along in a great army praying for the peasantry.

You should also only fight in positive dominion granting your peasants at least 9 in morale, add fanaticism and sermon to that and you have at least 11. Oh and your horse commanders also carry standards.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Yes but you can't afford horses (resource-wise). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif And they're really hard to keep grouped with infantry, they're much better with the other horse archers who are also ranged, and also mounted with the same speed.

Fanatacism can surely help with the morale a bit, but Voi will still take tremendous losses against just about anything, including LA indies. I mean, I don't even buy that quality of troops for expansion in EA anymore, the attrition is just too costly and cumbersome.

I mean it's great if the PoD is taking a province a turn - if he can consistently find provinces that he can take. However, with Sloth3 and a Voi army, you're going to have a really tough time keeping up with expansion using your troops. It takes a couple of extra turns to rev up a solid force of horse archers, but they can take most indies with very few losses once they hit critical mass, so you are building up the next force, rather than running on a "Voi reinforcement" treadmill.

To look at it another way, if your PoD takes 10 (starts in month 2, and you wait until turn 2 to attack) provinces in the first year, and your army takes 6 provinces, then you aren't much better off than the player whose main army takes 9 provinces in that first year, and then sends another force out 3 turns later which takes 6 as well. Also if he's affording a decent squad of troops every 3 turns, and is positioned well, he might even be beating your expansion rate with the PoD - but we won't go there because you could suppose that your 8 prot, 8 morale Voi didn't die in droves.

My point is just that more often than not, no matter which direction you take it, Bogarus' expansion will tend to be mediocre. But it'll be mediocre with their best troops alone, or with an awake SC and a steaming pile of Voi.