Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

Luck needs serious boost. In two MP games I played, with Turmoil 3 and Luck 3, I get more bad events than good. You regularly lose 20% population even with the ridiculously good luck, and generally all other bad events you can think of. Sure, barbarians won't show up, but knights and stuff still do.

To actually balance luck, I would propose the following changes:

For each province (generate events ; add to currenteventlist; )
Sort currenteventlist according to desirability of events;
If Luck(n) then discard (n*13%) lower part from currenteventlist;
Else if Misfortune(n) then discard (n*13%) upper part from currenteventlist;
If numberofevents>4 then choose 4 randomly;

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

I am in 2 games with Luck scales. In the CBM game, it has been very helpful. In the non-CBM, horrible - in fact, I have probably had more bad events than good.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

Wow, are you serious, KO? Cause if this is the case Misf-3 just became the new point mine...

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

Yes, you take Misf 3 and tell me how it goes. :p

I ended up with Misf 3 in one game (still not sure how I decided to do that), and it has been a non-stop headache.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

Jazzepei:
At the risk of giving a little info from our current game.:

I find it soooo ironic we were posting in this thread and you had your H4 prophet gang raped by Barbarians this turn.

I had a 450g capitol only sight searching mage with "retreat" orders attacked by an indep ninja this round as well!! Damn did that really tick me off! I swear I brought it on myself by posting in this post.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

Haha.

Yeah I should have put him on retreat. I wasn't even thinking about that at all D:

So random. He was my prophet too :(

Jazzepi

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

Maybe you were really unlucky. I tried luck as well as unluck scales, I found them balanced in terms of results. Even with positive luck bad events happen, and even with negative luck god events happen. Also, don't forget that there are many other events that pop loss. If you really think you're getting unbalanced events, and I had that feeling by my own in some games, try this :

- first of all, you'll note that the feeling of unbalanced events always concerns unbalanced bad events Nobody ever complained for excessive good events ;)

- second, if you save your turns in an history folder (I do it for my MP games), just go through your history again and carefully check the events one by one. In my case, what I eventually found is in no way amazing : the "unbalanced bad events" were just an imagination of mine. Once checked and counted the events, the final ratio was seemingly OK for my luck scale. (*) I was just going obsessed by my bad events and forgetting the other (good) ones : gems, increased PD, sometimes population increases, gifts, items for bonus, etc.

(*) I applied the technique for some other games were I was having trouble as well, with always the same result : I am paranoid :doh: :D

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

that'd make them unbalanced. After all, you PAY for good luck. And dearly, at that.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

I don't understand :confused:
Luck enhances your chances of having god events, unluck increases the chance of having bad events. You've got what you paid for, isn't it balanced ?

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

I think he means balanced in the sense that luck is as good for you as misfortune is bad.

I'd certainly say I found Misfortune 2 rather aggravating, mostly for repeated rebellions and the occasional demolished building. You'd be surprised how beneficial it is to not only have a stream of extra gold/gems/PD but be very unlikely to have disruptions across your empire.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

Herode, that is a very useful analysis of luck/misfortune. I've never encountered a post that even vaguely quantified good/bad events.

That is a study worthy of its own thread.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

True, and depending on what nation you play, even the militia events might actually be big boosts, especially early in the game. LA Abysia comes to mind, they get some of the light Abysian infantries from a militia events, so getting something like 70 of those in one go in the first few turns for example is an awesome boost.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

Re: the Kirke-Skogu event, KO, I assume this is a negative event, and can thus be stopped by Fortunetelling?

I say this because I've had Kirke and Skogu in the same province for many many turns (my capital) over many games (I like Sauromatia), and I've never ever seen that event.

Also, isn't one of the Partholonians (I think it's the relatively new Queen hero added to Sauromatia) also related to Skogu somehow?

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

> Re: the Kirke-Skogu event, KO, I assume this is a negative event, and can thus be stopped by Fortunetelling?

Aha. Most likely. How clever of you :)

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

The problem is that as it stands it's a big risk-taking. Maybe you get knocked out by a bad event early, if not you gain from having the points. You get imbalanced games when a player is taken out. The player who loses the gamble doesn't lose much because they quickly see they are dead, the player who wins the gamble has a better chance of winning.

I believe this sort of thing is harmful to the game. Remove bad events from the capital but make luck/misfortune have more of an effect elsewhere--perhaps raise the maximum number of events per turn, add some nastier events--Bogus II, just like the original except every turn he attacks what he thinks is the weakest adjacent province.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

Unrest events early on should be more balanced though, especially multiple unrest. Being unlucky is 1 thing, getting eliminated by it is another thing. And no, that risk is no reason to go for Luck.

We all know that biggest problem is that Luck does not work well with Order 3. And 90% people take O3. So they naturally take misfortune as it also does not scale with size and is useless if you conquer enemy provinces [and well, that is your goal, isn't it?]. It can of course work nice on smaller maps, when you take a risk of lower income for a chance to get nice gold/fort/gem events instead. Hard to build any strategy on it though.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

I agree Zeldor misfortune gives bad events... sure, that is known and accepted and the whole point, but getting ruined by it on the first (or first 3-5) turns is not balanced

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

Bad events are the whole bloody point of misfortune. If you take it, then you run the risk of being ruined by that misfortune early on, tough luck. Even if it does cost you the game in the first few turns. On the other hand, with Misfortune 3, you just got 120 points extra to spend on dominion, magic paths and/or other scales which should presumably offset the problems of the misfortune scale.

Misfortune is already one of the most widely used scales, so why the hell should it be nerfed just so people can feel they can safely take it? Can anyone give me any actual viable reason why this should be?

The best solution I can see is increasing the maximum number of possible events per turn, as that would scale both luck and misfortune a lot better, especially in large games.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

I am only talking about getting for example 120 unrest on turn2 in your capitol. Order should decrease unrest events. And I am talking about that not in context of misf-luck balance. As I said - not scaling of it + bad events from enemy dom replacing your good ones is a thing that makes it unbalanced.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

I don't understand. Why would 90% people take Misf if it is unbalanced, that's what I cant' figure. If Luck is not worth its price and Misf unbalanced, then 95% of the players should take Luck 0, I guess :p

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

At first I thought Zeldor was using reverse psychology to argue just for a Luck buff, not a Misf nerf. :p

What a strange world we live in. ;)


Though Edi, arguing Misf 3 doesn't really work, it's rarely taken. The 80 points from Misf 2 aren't going to offset a knight attack on turn 3, nothing will. :p But I'm not arguing a point, those who take the Misfortune are taking a calculated risk that with current game mechanics, they are getting a measurably better long term benefit with O3/Mis2, than with T2/L3.

If you can't stomach that risk, then go even scales, no one is holding a gun to your head. :p

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

JimMorrison:

Like unrest events won't hit you if you take Luck :) They are just less likely.

I think that Misfortune is bad enough, but Luck is not good enough to use your points on it. Luck0 is not worth 80 points either. Luck should increase chance to get a hero by 2-3% per tick, event limit should be removed and militia events should be replaced by national unit events where it is not done yet.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

The problem is edi, as I tried to point out before, is that other people pay the price for *you* taking unluck. I'm not talking scales.

If a player takes misfortune 3.. and gets knocked out of the game on turn 1 - or even in the first year - it unbalances the game for the remaining players.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

I've got to say I don't really see the logic in this argument, that taking Misfortune costs all other players in the game. I mean players can get knocked out early for any number of reasons, including a host of real-life issues cropping up causing a withdrawal, simple incompetence (you know, damn, my uber-Markata rush tactic just didn't work out this time!) and, of course, bad luck of the regular kind (having one's expansion force wiped out early next to a powerful early-game nation through an inadvertent meeting, for instance).

So what to we do against these other things? Soul Contracts for all MP participants promising infernal retribution if they ever ever leave the game? Application of The Sickle Whose Crop Is Pain to the scrotums of those whose early game is considered inadequate?

I mean people get knocked out relatively early in nice normal no alarms no surprises games (at least I gather from reading the forums).

In a current game of mine three players including myself ganged on one, and when his resistance broke one of the three was in position to sweep up the bulk of the rushee's provinces while we were recovering from the fighting.

The rushee himself had expanded beyond all other nations early in the game, possibly due to the fact my own expansion had been less than optimal (I refer you to the 'incompetence' point made earlier).

Both these events were quite 'unbalancing' in the sense that one player set up a massive empire far outstripping the other players in the game.

But so what? That's every game!

Perhaps the most unbalancing thing about early misfortune events (again taking this from comments earlier in the thread) is that the people getting such events decide to go AI, when a bit of elbow grease could at least make them competitive and stop those lucky bastard neighbouring nations from sweeping in for easy pickings. This obviously doesn't apply when you get your cap sieged by indy's before you own another province (which must be horrendously unlucky; how often does that happen anyway?)

It's a lack of respect for 'game balance' that's the real problem! :) Play it out misfortunteers!

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

Honestly, the most breathing room I would think fair at all, is 2 turns, global lack of unlucky events - just to establish the playing field.

Beyond that, no complaints - you bought, or sold the scales - now live with them!

I've said it before, and I still believe it. I would rather be taken out early 9 times out of 10, and win once, than play out 10 mediocre games where I never had the faintest whiff of victory. :p So if that horrid unluck event happens at the start, then smile, thank everyone, bow out and join another game. No one can actually hate you for being sieged by knights and having your lab burned down.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

Luck would be much more viable if:

1) The cap for number of random events would be higher
2) The generic event for militia would be replaced by events generating national troops (or at least replaced by the event generating fanatics; at least the fanatics are sacred so they don't have lower upkeep and can actually be quite good for a while if you have nice blesses)
3) Luck scale would totally prevent bad events and instead fire only good events for the first N turns of the game, where N = Luck-scale x 2

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

1) Would "fix" it alone.
2) Also needs to be done, getting a horde of militia is quite unlucky.
3) < shrug >

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

3 - Horror !! I love bad events, even when I buy Luck :p
It's for suspense and so on, you know. OK, I confess I mostly play for fun, not for winning (although I also love winning but this seldom happens, maybe by unfair unluck :D).

I agree with 2, and strongly !

About 1, I'm dubious. Too many random events => random game.

+0.5. Global lack of any event, unlucky or not.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

I don't think luck is that worthless. With high luck, random events can bring you a lot of money, several items, and more important, gems of types you may not get with the usual Order/Misfortune.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

I often take Luck scales. It's not that I don't like them, but I do understand the reasoning of those who don't. But with scales builds, with certain nations, I'd rather have the Luck than anything else I could buy for those points.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

Olive:

They are cool and nice, but good for small maps and small nations. There are 3 events max, when you conquer enemy misfortune lands bad events from there will take that slots. For magic gems in good amount you need magic scale and not every nation wants it. For many gold events in the beginning you probably want turmoil, but well, that gives you less gold. Luck3 vs Misf2 is 200 points. You can buy a lot for that [and not suffer much with Order 3 you want to have anyway].

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

I'm not sure anymore. I'm a former monomaniac of Order 3 / Misfortune 2, but I've become really p!ssed to have provinces invaded by barbarians or knights. If the PD is strong enough to stop most barbarian invasions, yes, otherwise I'll avoid misfortune. And problem on big maps is that, even with order, you'll get 3/4 events a turn.

I guess it's all about the nation. Actually, I'm really enjoying playing Gath with Order 3 / Misfortune 2, barbarians don't match a 20 PD and the cash flows.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

Olive:

You can get some XP on your SCs and thugs that way :)

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

Yup, it can be a useful way to fix the problem. :)

Another really bad event is vine men invasion. When you take back the province, there's almost no population anymore. Pity when you just started bloodhunting the province and built a lab to avoid micromanagement. :o

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

This thread confirms what I have seen about misfortune:

1. With decent PD, you can withstand the effects of misfortune if you can make it about 15 turns or so without taking a fatal/near-fatal event.

2. The points from misfortune are real handy if applied elsewhere.

3. If you get crushed by bad events early it is the games fault.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

Some nations have misfortune "preventers". I usually take misfortune when playing a nation that has them.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

I have to ask: do they stack? If they do, misfortune would be almost a must. Assuming it aint right now.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

Not only they stack, they also stack in a simple straight forward addition style. So 7 sybil completes prevent all bad events in a province.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

Which suggests to me that Misfortune would be better if it wasn't so front loaded. Since getting destroyed by Misfortune in the first few turns isn't that big a deal, just join another game and Misfortune becomes progressively less of an issue later on, the best fix would be to lessen the chances of a disaster early on, but make it scale more for the late game. Either more events with more provinces or more really bad events unlocked by the Misfortune scale.

The first would be better, the second easier to accomplish. The intent would be for Misfortune to still bad enough to balance the points gained without the risk of early disaster.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

afaik fortune tellers don't exactly stack, but bad event makes a roll against every one of them.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

That's what I've been saying, also.

Not only does it mess the game up for the rest of the players but it actually hurts them worse than it hurts you. You're quickly out and can devote your time to a new one.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

Tho I highly doubt this will ever get implemented, the way to make Luck/Misf scales really work is this:


Include the turn number as a variable to the severity of the events.


So you take every positive or negative effect that an event has and multiply it by some amount of the turn. This would prevent Misfortune from being such a point-mine as bad events in the late game would be REALLY BAD. Imagine a gold loss event of 500gp or so! On the other side of the coin it would also provide a boost to Luck in that it would provide more benefit to a large nation once the events-per-turn limit was reached.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

Good idea Ironhawk. A minor permutation would be to step the events based on turns, such as level 1 for turns 1 to 5, level 2 for 6 to 15, etc.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

The problem is not the number of turns, but the fixed (max) number of events: If you have 40 provinces in the late game, you still get only .. what was it? 4? .. events ..
If max number of events would be dependant on the number of provinces owned (e.g. max 1 event per every full 5 provinces) you would be a bit safer in the first turns, but into much more hurt in the late game .. .

And, o.c., there should not be any random events and mercs during the first 6 turns (5? 10?) of the game .. they can only be unbalancing, therefore ...

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

I suspect the limit on the number of events is a spacing issue, ie, there are only 4 slots allocated for events. Maybe it can be changed, maybe not.

This is based on the fact that I've discovered other limits in the course of modding. One example is that there are 5 lines available for modded sites. The game just ignores any commands beyond 5 lines.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

Disabling game ending misfotrune in the first few turns was also what I was suggesting.

I also agree that the limit of 4 bad (or good) events really is necessary for misfortune to scale.

However, if the coding really is stuck on 4 events, Then I would suggest a slightly easier modification.

Generate random events based on the true incidence. Aka an empire of 30 territories might generate 5 bad events and 2 good ones.

Misfortune 3 would ensure that the 3 Worst events and 1 random event of the remaing 5 gets through. With 2 bad events and 2 good events remaing.. it would be 50/50 what kind of event you got.

Misfortune 2 .. would ensure that 2 worst events and 2 random events of the remaining 5 would get through.

How is this an improvement? rather than the first 4 chronolgoical events occur, it means that the the worst (best) events occur, according to your luck scale.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

Yeah, right. Where do you live? Expect what can be done. Increasing event limit is the easiest thing to do and if it can't be done in dom3 then surely some more complicated ideas like your are even less possible. I at least hope that they will tell us when they start making dom4, so we can make a nice wishlist.

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

You might be right with this one ...

.. and there is/was a wishlist somewhere.

ALAS, there will be no DOM4 .. they told us already, several times !!

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

[quote=Arralen;636402]Not so at all. They just said that it's not the project that they are currently working on. They wanted something new and different, can hardly blame them. I think Dom4 will be better if they focus on something else for awhile, learn even more, see even more, become slightly more godlike. ;)

Re: The most dreadful (random) event?
 

You are right in that it probably isn't easier to create, but it seems like it might be easier to incorporate into the existing codebase. As such, it'd be a good suggestion if it's difficult to just increase the amount of events - as Chrispedersen said.