Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Kristoffer,

Thanks for your comments. (As an aside, it's refreshing to have a game developer frequently interact with the player community. In fact' it's unprecedented among at least the games I play). My response:

1) I actually think a lot of the sacred cavalry in the game is overpriced, and the Tiger Riders for Bandar Log are no exception. So I am not sure Ghandarvas ought to be priced with the Tiger Riders as comparison point.

The other issue is whether a unit ought to be priced in comparison with units of its own nation at all. Wouldn't it make more sense to price them against comparable units of other nations? Of course, the problem is that--as you imply--there aren't too many peer units for Ghandarvas. I don't think it's quite as nasty as the uber-sacreds like Niefel Giants or the Hinnom/Ashdod ones; but it's certainly nastier than the glorified human or human-level units that comprise many sacreds.

Anyways, what I did was slightly boost its stats and price it at 125g and the default resource cost. Let's see how it works. I've also given Ti'en Ch'i Celestial Soldiers as a recruitable, as well as giving Mictlan Jade Serpents. They are priced at 125g (Celestial Soldiers were slightly boosted as well), and 150, respectively.

The reason I gave several nations medium-level summons as recruitables was because I felt that national units--with notable exceptions like the giant sacreds--quickly become out-dated in mid- and late- game, and that was one of the game deficiencies (to my eyes) that I wanted to address.

2. I did not realize that Devalas change scales; that would partly explain the cost.

Perhaps our approach to game developers ought to be what the Christian fathers demanded of their flock: Believe, rather than question! :)

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

> The other issue is whether a unit ought to be priced in comparison with units of its own nation at all.

Yes, you must. Otherwise units of your nation will be obsolete (not that there are not obsolete units in dom3 :) , but it is good to keep the numbers down). Nations are not balanced vs other nations based on the cost of the most popular recruit, they are balanced as a whole.

So try to keep units relatively balanced within the nation and if they are too expensive compared to other nations, lower the cost of all units of the nation. This way you get the nation internally balanced, which is preferable.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

In case you return to this thread once more KO, I'd like to second the comment that sacred cavalry are, on the whole, a tad too pricey for what you get. It seems that perhaps there is just a multiplier being applied to cost, and while that multiplier is correctly applied to infantry, cavalry with their higher initial costs and higher initial stats do not gain any greater additional benefit from the bless than infantry do. Most blesses do not magnify a units power, but simply add to it.

So my point being, I think Tiger Riders are a bit high priced. I did a number of tests on different bless builds with Bandar Log, and by and large none of them are effective at early growth as the tried and true elephants. This just seems a little sad to me, that dual blessed tigers can't beat the ele. Sure, they are superior in some ways, but with no bless at all, there's almost no point whatsoever in purchasing them over elephants.

I think that perhaps your argument of how many of what units you would value more, breaks down a bit when you add the distinction of capital only. Capital only troops perhaps deserve to be just a little more cost effective, to encourage you to make use of them in your armies as you can afford to. Otherwise people will gravitate towards more easily replaced units to fill that particular niche.

On the other hand, I do think that recruitable Gandharvas may be a bit much. Though mid game summons like that might not be too bad with high resource cost, so that it's not worth buying them early on when you can't get a good squad together in any timeframe. Boosting gold cost may make them unattractive at all points of the game, especially if you are modding the summoned unit rather than copying it - as that will mean that summoned units gain the same high upkeep costs.


One other thing this made me think of (dear god, does he ever stop??), was that looking at what people will pay in gold for a particular summonable unit, brings into stark contrast the poor returns that you get from alchemizing. It seems people value units in the range of 30-50g per gem or more in some cases. Just makes me think that the pace of the game could be kept in check a bit if people had more incentive to alchemize gems for cash, rather than saving for more SCs. :p

Well maybe... and I say maybe... Tiger Riders are like one of the many other sacreds not worthy of an high bless so, if they're so pricey... ^^

Like many others, they may be one unit which you buy a couple sometimes to add to your troops (let's say, to go with elephants to help their morale) and which may have nice qualities with the many little blesses coming i.e. by Baalz's strategy, with a rainbow pretender.

It doesn't sound so strange to me ^^ Many nations are not worthy for an high-bless strategy for their sacred units being having small survivability, or small map-movement... in this case, it's just their small cost-efficiency ^^ I think we can live with it - Bandar Log doesn't work too well with a bless strategy, or better, it doesn't work better than if it goes with just elephants ^^

May I be saying something stupid, just tell me I'm not getting offended ^^

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Regarding luck/skill... skill wont make you win with Bandar Log, they just lack the tools to win with what they are guaranteed to have. Bad combat magic, terrible troops, inability to craft many important items etc.
Luck isnt much better, because even if you are lucky, you wont have enough nature gems for everything. Clams, thug items, yakshas (whole strategy seems to be based around these) - too many uses for your nature gems, which are rarely abudant.
Which sums up why Bandar Log doesnt win games.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Well the Tigers have niche usefulness (and are still fairly effective units where the elephants outshine them - but they're 100g whether one calls them worthy of a bless or not. I think they are (not by themselves, but since you bless White Ones as well, and have many sacred summonables), but if they are worthy of a bless but just not quite worth the cost, then they're not going to be more cost effective as units without that bless. :p

I rather like the White Ones themselves. They're low on the ladder of the MA sacreds I think, but they're cheap and plentiful, so they add good value to the use of a bless.

But as KO was saying, if you can buy 4 White Ones for every Tiger Rider, would you? A squad of 20 White Ones, vs 5 Tigers. 90% of the time you're going to want to buy the White Ones. Which is sort of a shame - I'd like to see people use cap only sacreds a bit more often, as they're usually very distinctive and flavorful units.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

So you're saying that Bandar Log would need both skill and luck to succeed, because neither are good enough on their own? That's true of most nations.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

So you are saying that most nations are equal in power?

I have heard claims that nations power matters little because its skill that makes you win. But strangely, these who claim such things tend to play extremly strong nations, such as Mictlan and LA Rlyeh. :)
If nations arent equal in power, then least powerful nations need most luck and skill. And thats true for Bandar Log.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

I think this is quite the mischaracterization. As I stressed above, if you insist on only using the "best" stuff - aka the most expensive, then you certainly have a point that you can have trouble coming up with the gems you need. If you reread my guide though, the point I didn't explicitly say (and apparently isn't clear to several people) is that the ability to use the less expensive units effectively is the finesse that is required to play Bandar effectively.

If it was as easy as blasting straight for gandarvas, summoning a ton of them, buffing them with every spell imaginable then marching straight towards your oppenent's capital while dozens of fully kitted Yaksha thugs grabbed every other province along the way then I dare say it wouldn't require much finesse at all. I give several examples above of ways to be very effective with very few gems if you're clever enough to use the right tool for the right job. Much of what I discussed above can be perfectly devastating with no more than the gem income you get from your capital. Again, to repeat what I said you'll put every gem to good use, but at the end of the day your most critical needs can be met by a couple Yakasha, a Kinnara, several Rishi, and the proper research.

IMO, the reason Bandar often does poorly is because people don't want to use the 'crappy' stuff, they only want uber double sacreds and SCs - which are priced accordingly. That's fine, but that's not gonna work with Bandar. You have to use your Asparas when in makes sense rather than Gandharvas. You've got to leverage your markatas against the super expensive stuff your neighbor insists is the only thing worth using. You've got to use your stealth archers to catch people with unexpected arrow volleys. You've got to compensate for your low morale with good battlefield tactics. You've got to use iron bane and destruction to even out the field on the protection front. Trying to wield the Bandar army like a blunt instrument is going to get you cut to pieces - which is why that happens a lot.

Just like any nation, the more gems you get the better off you are by a good margin. Just like any nation if you have *no* gems by mid game, you're pretty much screwed. It's absolutely not the case though that the only way to win with Bandar is to pray you get an abnormally large supply of gems. You just have to be willing to use what you've got and what you can afford.

Ps. Another thing I wanted to restress is that almost all your nature gems should go to Yakshas. One or two Yakshini for clam forging (if that's appropriate for your gem income), then everything else straight into Yakshas. You don't want to forge any nature items for them. They've got awe, so skip the vine shield. They've got good reinvig, so skip those items. They've already got regen, so skip that as well. If you don't spend your nature gems on anything but Yakshas, and you've made site searching a priority you absolutely shouldn't have any trouble summoning one every 2-3 turns by mid game even if you're forging a clam (with a hammer!) every turn.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

I wasn't trying to say anything, but trying to understand what you had meant. Most nations aren't grossly imbalanced, in either direction, and I doubt Bandar Log is too far down, personally.

On your original post, the tone suggested that you tried to belittle Bandar, but the arguments weren't spesific to them. I tried to point that out.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

I agree with Endoperez and Baalz.

What they are saying is that it isn't a stretch to play Bandar and win in MP. They can't can't be played using a strategy of "recruit and smash mouth", but they have the resources available to play with any nation if you know what you are doing.

That is the purpose of Baalz guide. It is not to convince you that Bandar is the absolute easiest, best nation.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

1. You make an excellent point about the need for capital-only troops to be cheaper, because they will comprise only a small portion of your military.

As for Tiger Riders in particular, what do you think is a fair price for them in comparison to the Elephants? I've re-priced them to 85 from 100. The problem with them was that they were priced too high even within the context of the high price of cavalry in Dominions III in general. For instance, I did not see them as 30-35 percent more efficient than Androphags or Red Guards. They are likely the most over-costed sacred in the game, along with the Wind Riders.

2.Why would recruitable Ghandarvas be too much? I've ran a few tests with them on Gandalf's map, and they get stomped by both Niefel Giants and either the Hinnom or Ashdod giants on battles of 2 v 3 manpower ratio (that is, assuming Ghandarvas are priced at 100 to 150 for the giants). Sure, they are powerful; but they are not over-powering. If Niefel Giants were a summonable, they would be like a level 7-8 summon, no?

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Ok, you've made me see the other side of the coin. So I suppose that's why normal Elephants and armored Elephants are priced the same. So I suppose the right way to evaluate unit price is to compare them to both the nation's own units and foreign peer units? :)

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

It is always important to avoid direct comparisons of vastly different units, such as elephants and tiger riders. I would not hesitate to choose elephants for initial expansion, but believe me, when it comes to war I would pick the tiger riders first. This goes double when I'm at war with a nation that uses fear effects or forces MR checks with their spells. This goes triple when I'm fighting Ry'leh. (Though I'd bring an elephant anyhow to absorb a few spells.)

Making direct comparisons between gandharvas and niefel giants is also not a fair comparison. Sacred units tend to have naturally higher moral scores. You put the gandharva at a disadvantage when putting them up against another sacred because their awe becomes almost irrelevant. The gandharvas also have a standard and infantry average move speed, which means they are army friendly and operate best by elevating your regulars. Niefel Giants operate best on their own. Niefel giants are also priced in comparison to giants, meaning they absorb the benefits of being a giant as a national advantage.

Back to what KO is saying, it is important to compare units of a nation to each other and not other nations. Otherwise you discount national weaknesses and strengths. If you compared every infantry unit to Mictlan's infantry then you would conclude that all solidly average units should be priced as 9 gold and not 10. This would cause you to completely miss the fact that Mictlan's national advantage is cheap humans soldiers. Bandar Log has a national disadvantage, which is that all of their units are animals. Give them a unit that isn't an animal, but rather a magic being, and you must account for it.

I don't like gandharvas as a national unit because I think it is unthematic. The point of Bandar Log is that the apes have come to stand on their own. It is the only ape nation that rules itself. The summons imply that the celestial beings now answer to them, not the other way around. If gandharvas are around and are revered by the monkeys then it would logically imply that a gandharva-like commander would naturally follow. Though a faction with gandharva-like commanders and sacreds fighting along side apes already exists, it's called Kailasa.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

AreaofEffect,

If that post was directed to me, you are already preaching to the (half-) converted. I acknowledged as much in my response to Kristoffer. He introduced an angle I did not sufficiently consider before.

Nonetheless, if you are trying to go to an immoderate lengths with the argument and simply say that cross-national comparisons ought not be made, period--well, then, I can't agree.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

>> Again, to repeat what I said you'll put every gem to good use, but at the end of the day your most critical needs can be met by a couple Yakasha, a Kinnara, several Rishi, and the proper research.

A couple of Yakshas is already very expensive. What does 'a couple' mean? 3 of them is 75 nature gems already. Dont forge anything out of nature? Clams are nature, for starters. And how are you going to equip your thugs (kinnaras?) without nature, then? Not trying to say its impossible, just not sure how to do it as a Bandar Log.

Finesse when using Bandar troops is great, but what happens when your opponent, who has got real troops, uses it too? He's got better tools, so if he's as skilled as you are... you're in trouble.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

>JM> In case you return to this thread once more KO, I'd like to second the comment that sacred cavalry are, on the whole, a tad too pricey for what you get. It seems that perhaps there is just a multiplier being applied to cost, and while that multiplier is correctly applied to infantry, cavalry with their higher initial costs and higher initial stats do not gain any greater additional benefit from the bless than infantry do. Most blesses do not magnify a units power, but simply add to it.

No multiplier. Just a guess from my side. More powerful units have less educated guesses. Benefits from defense and prot are generally more useful when the initial value is high.

> So my point being, I think Tiger Riders are a bit high priced. I did a number of tests on different bless builds with Bandar Log, and by and large none of them are effective at early growth as the tried and true elephants. This just seems a little sad to me, that dual blessed tigers can't beat the ele. Sure, they are superior in some ways, but with no bless at all, there's almost no point whatsoever in purchasing them over elephants.

Might be true. Might be more of an elephant problem though.

> I think that perhaps your argument of how many of what units you would value more, breaks down a bit when you add the distinction of capital only. Capital only troops perhaps deserve to be just a little more cost effective, to encourage you to make use of them in your armies as you can afford to. Otherwise people will gravitate towards more easily replaced units to fill that particular niche.

True.

> On the other hand, I do think that recruitable Gandharvas may be a bit much. Though mid game summons like that might not be too bad with high resource cost, so that it's not worth buying them early on when you can't get a good squad together in any timeframe. Boosting gold cost may make them unattractive at all points of the game, especially if you are modding the summoned unit rather than copying it - as that will mean that summoned units gain the same high upkeep costs.

> One other thing this made me think of (dear god, does he ever stop??), was that looking at what people will pay in gold for a particular summonable unit, brings into stark contrast the poor returns that you get from alchemizing. It seems people value units in the range of 30-50g per gem or more in some cases. Just makes me think that the pace of the game could be kept in check a bit if people had more incentive to alchemize gems for cash, rather than saving for more SCs. :p

It would lead to faster research and more castles. I have not really thought about the consequences though. I mostly view alchemy as a last resort/niche use.

>Epaminondas> Ok, you've made me see the other side of the coin. So I suppose that's why normal Elephants and armored Elephants are priced the same. So I suppose the right way to evaluate unit price is to compare them to both the nation's own units and foreign peer units?

Thats nice! Yep!

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Don't get me wrong. I am not against making comparisons between nations in general. Nation-to-nation comparisons are always good in my book. What I'm saying is that unit-to-unit comparisons aren't very helpful. Also note that I feel even more strongly about this when the two units being compared fill completely different niches. Comparing a size 6 trampler to a sacred mounted unit and a standard bearer with awe against an ice giant are rather drastic comparisons to make.

My opinion is that you should make comparisons for the sake of game balance. However, those comparisons should be made by taking in the nation as a whole. Regular units, sacred units, commanders, province defense, priest power, magic paths, starting gems, pretender selection, national spells, extra dominion effects, castle types, and temple costs all have to be considered. It's not an easy comparison to make.

The purpose in the post is to express my concern that some comparisons were being made rather hastily and incorrectly. That comparisons were being made in a manner that didn't reveal much insight.

I'm glad you are half converted on this issue. I guess that means that I don't have much else to say. I just wanted to be clear that nation-to-nation comparisons are fine, though doomed to be skewed by personal opinion. Nothings perfect.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Well AOE, perhaps I misspoke a bit, as I didn't mean to make a strictly direct comparison. I was mostly just trying to show how unless you are absolutely rolling in cash you can't spend, the tigers generally end up not being not entirely cost effective.

And really, I did not just compare them to elephants. I also compared them to White Ones. Unfortunately, Bandar Log has no other cavalry, certainly no other sacred cavalry, so what would be a better unit to compare to? :p I compared them to the other unit with a similar cost, and to the other sacred unit, I think that's all I could do, since we all seemed to agree it's not right to compare them to Oiorpata, for example. ;)

I just hope that KO's agreement of my point on cost, wasn't a euphemistic, philosophical agreement. I will cross my fingers that we see a cost reduction of capital only units (not commanders) in the next patch - to encourage people to use their special national units more frequently.

<3

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Not to wax poetic... but...

Bandar Log and Kailasa are nations of finesse and elegance. They are ineffably powerful, and infinitely fragile. Most people don't have the touch (I didn't say skill) to play them, and they don't understand them; the range and contradiction between comments regarding the nation seen in this thread alone will attest to that.

They take zen and laser-like focus to play (I didn't say luck or skill, though both are factors).

They also take patience, and there is more micro-management involved; what to summon where to summon how to mix...

They take foresight, caution, and planning... what enemy might I face in the next twelve turns, what spells are top priority for that enemy, what does my army need to look like, where does my army need to be, how many commanders and priests do I need and where to I need them. These are the vital questions for this nation, yet surprisingly these are not always the general vital questions most people are thinking about. Most nations don't require careful foresight regarding leadership that this nation does, so people take leadership and availability for granted, and then fall flat when the lack of leadership logistics immobilizes a nation that counts mobility and flexibility among its primary strengths.

This is not a press the gas and GO GO GO nation. They take deliberate but deft maneuvering. This nation is neither a monster truck, nor a drag racer, yet that is the play paradigm most people will approach the nations with; no wonder most people fail with this one. They are kind of like mario kart, where too much gas off the line is just as bad as too little, but hit it just right and you just take off; most people are not used to thinking with that kind of vision in Dominions. This nation has heavy logistical requirements, and you have to think turns ahead; maximizing speed through one turn may actually result in a poor position for another, with a net loss of overall speed (still with the racing metaphor). And as always, sometimes your better hanging behind, making a plan, and stuffing a red turtle shell up number one's ***.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

^ Best gaming analogy I've ever heard!! :laugh:

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Thats good and true, but so far now 'most' players fail with this nation; all of them do. Which really makes me think that this nation is a little bit toooooooo far on the 'elegance' side and too thin on the 'power' side.
Elegant apes are too much in my opinion anyway.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

As a Texan, I like the use of "yep" in this thread

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

The fact that I never mentioned apes or monkeys but you still interpreted my post as talking about apes demonstrates the problem players have when approaching Bandar Log. The problem is most severe for them because they are the 'monkiest' of all monkey nations, whereas with Kail and Patala it is obvious that they are supposed to be support.

How is it that Gandharvas are the premier mid-game unit in many peoples opinions (and at least a first-order mid-game unit in most's minds)... and BL has terrible units? and apparently 'not real' units? how are they thin on power? You misread my musings on elegance as something exclusive to power, when I was saying that elegance IS power for this nation. And BL is the _best_ setup to use these units, much more so than Kailasa.

How are Siddhas the essence of mobility: "can be (almost) anywhere at anytime with (almost) no conditionals. bringing divine blesses and really good battle magic OR thug-ability", and BL has no combat magic? ("Hell, I can even jump into the middle of your empire, then jump back out to a border skirmish, then to my own empire to defend or recapture a raided province, then back into the middle of your empire" says the Siddha that pops into your mind, then back out again as easily as it arrived). I mean, once you've got these guys, the massive logistical problems that are, in fact, BL and Kail's main challenge is solved. And once again, BL is better situated to use Siddhas and higher end summons compared to Kailasa

That's only the tip of the Kail/BL toolbox...
and what other nation has that _type_ of toolbox?

People don't think of BL as a nation that must depend on its summons. They see Kail = Celestial summons and BL = Monkeys, and this is why Kailasa has had victories before BL.

As far as the track record goes... well... Kailasa had their FIRST victory only two months ago, and then their second right after that, two weeks ago. They went from off the bottom to average in a couple of months, and Dominions has been out for two years now.

As people are realizing where the strengths lie and how to unlock them, they will start to win. BL is a very similar nation to Kail, and perhaps almost more powerful (maybe, its a hard call). We will see victories soon...

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Kailasa has very good recruitable mages and better sacreds. This guide describes heavy usage of summons which are recruitable in Kailiasa, and Kailasa has won two games recently. Coincidence? :)
Also, how Bandar Log is 'better' at using its troops than Kailasa when it needs to summon support mages instead of just recruiting them is beyond my understanding.

Ghandarvas are a decend mid-game unit, and?.. Your recruitable troops are still terrible. Some rather expensive summons dont make your army shine.
Siddhas, a high-end summon, can offer you air magic to cast some essential spells like arrow fend, not to spam combat spells. Two or even three thunder strikes arent that big by the time you can summon siddhas.
Once again, I'm completely puzzled how Bandar Log is better suited for using Siddhas.
I agree that Bandar Log depend on their summons... because summons are the only good thing about Bandar Log. And Kailasa has some of them as recruitable troops.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

After playing my first ever Bandar game (SP or MP), I must say they have potential but serious weakness.

Typically Bandars are played with either good bless or good scale. Good bless is much weaker for Bandar than for Kailasa, since Bandar's sacred is not nearly as powerful as Kailasa. While Kailasa's sacred has some obvious weakness, it can be mitigated with bless. I have not seen anyone pointing out a great way to bless white ones. Sure with the right bless they smash indies quick, but elephants are just as quick against indies. Against decent human player, who uses arrows, low level evocations,heavily armored troops and so on, they are at disadvantage against most of the middle age nations.

Now about their mages. First, many of their summoned mages cost money to maintain. This is bad after paying 20N, you now have to pay 12G per month for a mage. Second, summons are less numerous than recruits. Can you get as many Yakasha as in Kailasa? And nature gems have many great use, like GOR and GOH. So if you use all your nature gems on summons, you lose out in other important area. Third, all their mages require lab+temple to recruit, wasting lots of money plus valuable time on your summoned mages, since none of your recruited mages is priest.

And there is their PD. Even backed up by Yakasha casting destruction (shouldn't he have better things to do?), 20 PD would be hard pressed to stop a similar cost invasion force. Against small raiding forces, esp. stealth ones, you have pratically no way to counter.

Then there is this ridiculous animal tag on all their troops and commanders. For god's sake, how can an almost transcend rishi be an animal where lowly peasants are "human"? In game term, it make sieging and defending against siege pointless for Bandar. You better recruit a lot of indies if you want to take any castle. And what happened to yogi's 7 morale? Even indy militias are better motivated. Oh, and what's the reason for guru's 2 combat movement? Since only immobile units (like a fountain) has combat movement of 2, are gurus made of stone?

Bandar do have potential in their summon department. But relying only on summon against others who can both recruit powerful mages and troops as well as summon, will not get you very far.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

I'd say that blesses can be incredibly valuable in BL's late game, simply because their summons are almost always sacred.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

There is a glaring lack of understanding on this siege issue, I've seen this repeated a few times lately.

Let me clarify - Animal (and Mindless) tags ONLY reduce your ability to defend. Animals and the Mindless can't rebuild walls effectively. They can, however, tear them down just fine. Bandar has no problem taking castles without indie troops. No trouble at all.

Defending is indeed another story. ;)


(Edit: Also, they do have severe drawbacks, that's why they're considered harder to play. However, direct comparisions to Kailasa do not hold water, as Kailasa faces entirely different threats in EA than BL faces in MA. They also have a different but overlapping set of tools to use against those threats. Yaksha and Yakshini are not primary mages for BL, but they are powerful methods to diversify magic, and so should be summoned. If I could summon Rishi with Kailasa, I think I would go for it as well.)

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Just out of curiosity, where in the league of Ma nations would people place Bandar Log?

I have no experience of Bandar Log, I have never played them in SP or MP but I have just started a SP game with them out of curiosity, probably will never finish it but there you go.

From what I remember of Bandar in the Ma MP's I have played in they tend to do somewhere around average. Usually make the mid game and then are eliminated.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

I'm quite fond of this thread. Can't resist reading the latest comments :)

I'm a bit puzzled. Astral is often considered the strongest path. Nature among the stronger. BL has them both. BL also have strong summons in astral which is otherwise rare.

On the other hand you will probably go into conjuration rather than other astral heavy schools at first, making your astral skills evolve slower than for other astral nations.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Since Kristoffer is here, I cannot resist to ask why Brahmin and Yogi have a moral of 7? Is it an oversight or intentional?

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Perhaps it is because they are pacifists?

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Well, I think I've been clear on why I think can be powerful.

1) They've got access to powerful (3+ level) mages in astral, nature, earth, water, and air, leaving only death, blood and fire which take some work. They've got good/great national summons in death & blood, so a little effort in diversifying goes a long way. This leaves them really only 'weak' in fire, which is arguably the least useful path. Head of the class in diversity.

2) Some of the best non-unique thug/SCs in the game at fairly cheap prices. For 25-35 each they get a wide variety of guys who are not only good thugs, but also powerful combat and forging mages. On the high end you can field almost 3 Rudra for each GOR'ed Seraph, and all your guys are sacred.

3) Very good non-commander summons ranging from cheap ethereal chaff to uber heavy infantry.

4) Lots of 'special forces' type recruits, from knight slaying Markatas to stealth archers to stick and stone flinging Bandars to elephants (who can be great even into late game if your opponent wasn't expecting them).

5) Your most expensive (and best) stuff all costs pearls so alchemizing from anything is an option most of the game. Most of your stuff can still be cost effective at twice the cost in an off gem.

Ways in which Bandar can struggle

1) No single easily accessible 'use almost anywhere' unit. You can't crank out your 'best' unit, confident they'll get put to good use against most any opponent.

2) Lots of expensive options, lost of chances to waste money and gems on suboptimal choices. From summoning a hundred gandaharvas to massing thirty elephants to fielding a swarm of Bandar longbows, you've got a whole lot of opportunities to waste a whole lot of resources on expensive things. As I was discussing above you have to be willing to use the Apsaras if you can get away with it, even if you could summon gandaharvas at the moment. You have to be willing to turn back those F/W vans using markatas rather than spending 4 times as much on Bandar troops.

3) Several "gotcha" weaknesses from generally low moral to having the animal flag to having map move one recruitable mages to having only H1 priests. The reason I describe them as that is because none of them are crippling...until you forgot about it the turn it mattered.

[edit after thinking for a moment and AoE's comment]
4) Several "necessary" things that you really need to spend your gems on. Compounds the expensive options problem. If you can't clear a minimum hurdle for gem expenditure you're pretty much hosed.

Basically, Bandar gives you a whole lot of chances to shoot yourself in the foot. Played by a very experience player I think they'll fairly consistently do pretty well - even against opponents of equal skill. Played by even a moderately experience player I think they're pretty much always going to struggle to be competitive.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

I don't think anyone has yet criticized Bandar Log's magic power from their regular commanders. The chassis itself for the guru is the only thing I've noticed anyone having a problem with. Admittedly, 2 AP is rather slow, even for a guy with his legs crossed.

Astral and nature are both very strong paths. However, I think that Bandar Log lacks a great deal of magic diversity outside of their summons. Magic diversity is in my opinion the true hallmark of magical power. Outside of astral and nature Bandar Log can, at best, get 2 water, 2 earth, or 1 earth and 1 water. But don't hold your breath as that all involves a 10% random. Most likely you'll get only 1 water or 1 earth half of the time. What is worse is that it can only occur your capital only mage. Even getting 2 nature is limited to only the Rishi.

With such limitations on magic diversity and the availability of your powerful caster, the fact that BL is an astral and nature faction is very much mitigated. It is most likely why Baalz came to the conclusion that using their summons wasn't just good, but necessary.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

It's because they are cowards :)

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

That actually makes a lot of sense. :D

I'm not sure I see this as an advantage. I do see your point about the ease of alchemisation, but still... I'm not sure.

As an astral nation I always confortably manage to use up all the pearls I can lay my hands on, and then some, on astral boosters, penetration boosters, banners of the northern star, mind hunts, and battlefield gem use alone. (Not to mention any MR/luck equipment you might also want to forge) What has always put me off about Bandar Log, but also Pythium and Marignon, is that on top of all that, you also have to use those same precious gems for your summons.

I've yet to play any of those nations, so I can't really give an informed opinion, but that has always been the thing that struck me about them, how to get hold of enough pearls. I am now involved in a MP with LA Marignon, but am just now entering the mid game, and they also have the various blood summons to help out and mitigate the problem. We'll see how it goes.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Omnirizon's post was well-written and entertaining, but I'd have to conclude that it lacks substance.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Well-put. You've touched on all my concerns, and then some.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Kuritza:

the reason BL is better suited to use Siddhas and Gandharvas and other mid to late game summons is because they aren't limited in their possible blesses like Kailasa. Thus, they can choose a bless and pretender design that optimizes these mid and late game tools. It is their slightly more conventional line up of initial units that allows them to do this, yet it is that same line up that lulls people into thinking that BL can be played more conventionally than Kailasa; nothing is further from the truth. BL is more of a summoning nation than Kail, and this isn't something people recognize simply because Kail _looks_ more Conjuration and Celestial oriented. It is Kail's initial availabitity of Celestials that makes them less optimized to use the later Celestial summons (because they _must_ make pretenders that makes these initial units viable, and these designs will not optimize the mid and late game Celestials). Thus Kail is much less Conjuration and more Evo and Alt oriented.


Also, as KO points out, Astral and Nature (I would say especially Astral) is so powerful for late game, so much so that people often exclaim a nation that lacks it is completely crippled. BL is very powerful in this area, to the extent that I don't think they even need a lot of magic outside of astral. Thus why the fact that efficient alchemy is a real boon for them. And this is just another unconventional resource of BL that people discount right out of hand, due to common experience with other nations. BL is a completely different animal (so is Kailasa for that matter).

On a similar note, BL HAS the mid-late game tools in spades. And a lot of their weaknesses that Konming picks up on are moot in late game. PD? Irrelevant. And who by late game is using standard troops for anything but support? And Konming's point about the bless being less important is wrong, and is the kernel of what I'm claiming is the reason people fail with BL. Even their recruitable sacreds are only support to their summoned ones. And their summoned ones are more powerful than Kail's recruited ones, and BL can take a bless that optimizes that; while Kail cannot. And mid game is a turning point, and by late game standard units are almost unimportant. So in that sense BL has stronger sacreds than Kail. --This is why BL is more of a summoning nation that Kail, this is why BL is better situated to use Siddhas, Gandharvas, even Yaksha (even if they must summon them) than Kail.-- People's failure to pick up on this is the reason BL has no victories. Of all the ages (Kail/BL/Patala) BL has the most summoning options. And a sufficient even if lackluster line up of standard units allows them enough flexibility to use them (aka, they don't have to play to a particular weakness or idiosyncrasy in their standard units).

It is hyperbole to say this, but it will help you get the idea:
Bandar Log is like a more colorful Ermor with Astral... and elephants.


PS.
Also, reading through Baalz's guide, he REALLY gets at the point of BL being a nation who's challenge is management, not power. They have power, it is managing it that is the problem. He notes spot on that BL has a tool for everything, a weakness for everything, and in the same sense infinite ways to waste money. It is always about having JUST the right combination, and knowing what that combination is. BL has what it takes to win, does the player have what it takes to win is the question. People are used to playing in a way that there is one unit and one spell and one way of doing things. BL is not that nation. You have to read the situation, you have to play deliberately.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Well, one would expect the years of meditation and self-annihilation into nirvana of Brahmins and Gurus, would greatly help to reduce the selfness and fear of death which lead to run away from enemies :D

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Omniziron, you keep being an enigma to me.

How come BL has better blessing options? Kailasa has much better sacreds and thus can afford to take any bless it wants to and still have an easier time expanding.
To back up my words, I just started a test game with str. 6 indies as Kailasa and had no problem expanding with A4S4D4 bless. I can repeat the same with E4N4, E4W9 or no bless at all. So about Kailasa that '_must_ make pretenders that makes these initial units viable' - its just nonsense. If anything, Kailasa has more freedom when choosing pretender.

Astral and nature are very powerful indeed, but astral/nature is a rather bad combination of paths for a single mage. Astral/earth opens you gifts from heaven, astral/fire means astral fire, astral/air can lead to a thunderstikers communion, for expample, I'm rather fond of Bogarus astrapelagists... astral/nature makes a noncombatant mage.

Also, Kailasa has enough astral and nature. Yakshas can reliably have nature 2, which is enough to craft important items. Later you can forge thistle mace for N3 and a moonvine bracelet for N4, etc.
Guru can make a Starshine skullcap, astral yaksha then crafts you a crystal coin, voila - you've got S4 to summon Siddha.

BL's problem are sub-optimal troops that only do their job if you use them as a scalpel. Yes, you can kill somebody with a scalpel, but it doesnt make scalpel a good weapon. So far you are saying that scalpel takes finesse to use - but nobody makes you use broadsword as a pinch-bar.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Kailasa's recruitable sacreds have high defence and neglible protection, therefore benefiting from WS-like blessing (which will be made near obsolete by Thau6). Summons have high protection and staying power, therefore benefiting from NE, for example. BL recruitables are also of high prot-variety, therefore benefiting from similar blessings as summons instead of asymmetric ones like Kailasan recruits.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

These guys make me think of Journey to the West. Sanzang cowers in fear or faints while demons are running around, and then Sun Wukong has to save him.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Sigh. What do you call 'high prot'?!! Scale mail with prot 12? Gosh.
Kailasa's recruitable sacreds can do with any bless you like, as long as you place and buff them properly.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

This is not right. sure placement tricks work agaist the AI. But any player willing to put an equal amount of time into micro-managing placement will cancel out any amount of decoying and placement tricks you might be able to use as Kailasa. With as little as A7, it becomes cheaper to kill a Yavana with a slinger than with a cavalry, and an Apsara would probably remain more efficient to kill with a slinger up to A8 or 9...

Additionally, you gain alot of benefits as Kailasa from a strong Air bless. You can team your sacreds with as many Markata archers as you please and don't have to worry about friendly fire. You can place Yaksha surrounded by Apsaras/Yavanas right on the front line to spam Destruction and Panic. Apsaras are VERY defense oriented and can hold out, the Air bless ensures your mage is protected there... The armor less and feared foes will wilt under the pelting of 1000's of little arrows... You never have to worry about stray blades from your Yaksha spamming Blade Wind. In late game you can unleash Shimmering Fields and Wrathful Skies with impunity. Your own mages (who will be acting as battle mages for Kailasa, rarely as thugs) benefit greatly from the Air sheild. Kailasa has alot of big time AoE missile and artillery support to offer, and it becomes most usable with a strong Air bless.

BL's sacreds do not have phenomenal prot, but it's high enough (and with their sheilds) that they benefit enough from an Earth Bless. The important thing is that they don't need an air bless, and can choose blesses that are optimal for Gandharvas and higher end summons

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

"Benefits from Air Bless" does not translate to "needs an Air Bless to work".

Bandar Log's sacreds might sync better with blesses designed for their late game, but that doesn't mean anything if Kailasa can expand as fast with the same bless.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

perhaps not...

but I have a heuristic I use when designing nation strategies:
"don't do anything anyone else can do better. do something you can do better than anyone else."

for Kailasa, that translates to strong Air bless. Without you're simply disregarding what they have available at every fort. And expansion is only half the story; because when you meet a real opponent if you can't defend it then it is just that much more free land for them. I don't mean to imply that "mid-late game" stuff is better than what Kailasa has available off the bat; because it isn't unconditionally. You have to take everything in context. Kailasa with an Air bless doesn't need those higher end summons, and will do splendid with Apsaras/Yavanas/Guhyakas (well, they want to get Kinnaras eventually for battle magic). They have extra research options that BL will not. They have extra research options many nations will not, for that point. The strong Air bless with Kailasa is simply equal to flexibility and options, in research, strategy, and battlefields.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Air bless gets obsolete, as soon as you can cast arrow fend. I would use a bless that stays useful until the end of the game. Especially with Kailasa when you are usually fielding all sacred armyes.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

But with Kailasa you have more important things to research if you have an air bless

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Also, you get the 75% SR (which has more relevance in the late game), and without native access to Air magic at all, it's a bit foolhardy to make an Air spell become a pivotal part of your strategy.