Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

I've tried downloading from the top post, but it looks just like the old version. Am I doing something wrong?

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

hmm well not that much is changed.. mostly just the summon costs and a few small adjustments... the one in that post IS the new one though.

What more should I change about it, what do you want to look differently from the old one?

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

I've solved my problem - it was something to do with the way Dom3 handles updating mod files, I think.

The new costs on the summons are rather more fair I think. You can't just spam out Magma Dragons as excellent battle mages (and/or respectable thugs) to nearly the same extent as before. The other dragons of the tier will be pretty rare summons at 40 gems each.

The recosting on the pretender choices hasn't changed my preference. The advantage of the Ivy Dragon chassis is that 1: it has nature, which is a natural bless choice, and 2: it pays less for additional paths than the other two chassis that have magical paths. It makes it a more effective choice than the rest, unless you want a magicless thug for some reason.

If the three dragons with magic all paid 40 for extra paths, I'd be more inclined to choose between them according to what sort of bless/summons I wanted to use. With the Ivy dragon being cheaper, it becomes the default choice.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

hmmm might change that later.. I wanted the ivy dragon to be somewhat more of a rainbow mage since it's the only one of it's tier with 2 paths.. the adamantine was more meant as a SC and the other in between... due to them all being dragon it might mean they can all be used as decent enough SC so the magic is much more important.

If you'd want to bless nature would be the prime choice, maybe with water if you'd overdo it :D, but since blesses are mostly for single summons later in the game it's probably better to go scales.. both paths would be viable though which was my intention.. I just usually prefer to play on the early game more than set up for late game and hope to reach it through a difficult early game

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

I see them all as being strong thugs. They aren't quite SC material because they don't have full slots, and although the Adamantine Dragon is pretty nifty in a fight he doesn't have the Wyrm's 16 hp of regen. I wouldn't trust him to do as good a job as a Wyrm because of that.

The other dragons worried me more in combat, although it's possible the Ivy Dragon could do quite well with its poison aura and spikes, as well as better Fear if it adds a couple of levels of Death and of course the potential to cast Personal Regeneration.

That was another plus point for the Ivy Dragon - a N4 bless was all of 48 points, and probably worth as much overall as an extra scale.

Why not add a Stargazer Avatar chassis for a rainbow mage choice? Add some flavour text about it having newly attained Stargazer form, reduce its stats a little from standard maybe, and have a 20 point new path cost. Leave the other magical dragons at 40 points for a new path and I think the range of choices would be more varied.

Another small question: How come fire breath has no AoE? At the moment I'm ignoring the option of Fire orders for the red dragons because it seems less effective than either melee or spellcasting. It may have good AP damage, but the accuracy isn't great and shields will stop it handily. I guess it doesn't shout out 'Dragonfire!!!' to me.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

#newweapon 753
#name "Fire Breath"
#dmg 15
#nostr
#att 0
#def 0
#AoE 4
#range 30
#ammo 15
#armorpiercing
#fire
#sound 16
#explspr 10113
#flyspr 133 4
#bonus
#magic
#end

it should have an AOE 4, I copied it directly out of the mod...

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

Hmm. It didn't give an AoE in the fire breath description, as it does for the vanilla dragon pretender. I therefore assumed it had no AoE and ignored it. I spy some testing coming along.

Hmm... I guess I could have posted this before testing. However, I can report that they have no AoE. Firing against a squad of militia, even direct hits against a full square damaged one unit at most. Several times no damage at all was dealt, implying that the fire bolt was parried by shields.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

Extra note:

After some further testing and comparison with other mods, I have your answer.

rather than '#AoE 4', you need to be typing '#aoe4'. I'm not certain the space absolutely has to be left out (it seems to work either way), but I am certain that case sensitivity is an issue.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

Okay, I've tested with the correct AoE breath weapon. The red dragons are now 250 gold thugs who can clear nearly any indie province (including barbarians and heavy cavalry) without breaking a sweat.

I suspect this may be considered overpowered. AoE 4 may be okay for the Magma Dragons and upwards, as they're costly summons. For a non-capital recruit it's probably a little too much. Perhaps a different weapon for the lower-end dragons (and perhaps pretender, unless you like the fire dragon pretender as an early SC) with either AoE 1-2 or less damage?


Edit: Heh - I'm finding this an entertaining use of spare time. It brings back the 3years I spent doing this as a paying job.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

hmm case sensitivity.. never heard that before in the mods... I'm pretty sure it's not the space though. I put a space after every other command (and it's like that in the manual too) so case could be it.

I'll have to admit that clearing 4 tiles of indies without breaking a sweat might indeed be a bit too strong. I know catoblepas have an aoe 5 attack but mot much have that good attacks... maybe I' should lower damage a bit too

nice you are enjoying it since I love to get feedback :D once you are done with this the whole dom3k mod is a much bigger project (bothfor me and you if you decide to go test it :D)

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

Well, Catoblepas have AN damage but it's lower and can be resisted by MR IIRC. Also, they're a late-game summon rather than a turn 1 recruitable. That makes a bit of a difference to balance considerations.

The thing with the dragons was that in testing I could just set them on Fire Closest and send them out to fight, not even needing to change their battlefield position. Being able to crush the traditional thug-killers such as Heavy Cavalry and Berbarians from that sort of dumb setup seemed rather much.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

you are right of course so as I said I'll change it :D

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

2 days NO post in the whole forum?? can't be if nothing else is interesting about all mods in here I'll jut ask for more feedback again.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

Weekends are very quiet, I've noticed. I always find it a bit surprising.

As for me I've been too busy beating my head against the LlamaServer and whimpering to do anything moddy.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

3 games so far against the AI:

#1: I got rush by Ermor. While I could deal with him I found myself too far behind in the expansion and threw in the towel.

#2: Strange--everyone declared war on me on turn #1. Perhaps a relic of the previous game not cleared out of memory??? Again, I found myself right next to Ermor. He didn't go for me right away but he spreads like cancer. Most of my territory was taken from Ermor and not all that productive, I wasn't in position to deal with the two others that came at my capital from the opposite direction.

#3: Finally, I didn't start next to Ermor! (I've always been weak at the initial expansion in 4x games.) It turns out I was hemming in Caelum and Ulm, they both went to war. My dragons made quick work of them. On the other side was R'yleh, I went on a temple-building rampage to keep their insanity at bay. (I *HATE* their dominion!) At this point I was in the SE corner and had a mostly water border with Atlantis expanding through the water. Someone was to the north, I forget who, this was peaceful. My contact with R'yleh was on a narrow front to the NW, there was a little empire to the W and Atlantis was on land to the SW.

I was doing ok in the research department but the lack of boosters hurt--I didn't have the gems to blow on empowerment and needed cauldrons to feed those hungry dragons. My imprisoned oracle finally showed up (yeah, you suggest dragon pretenders--this race doesn't need an awake SC, I wanted the points for scales.) and I had less need of astral so I empowered him to 5 to make a ring of sorcery so I could forge cauldrons. No sooner had I done this than a plague dragon showed up in my capital--he can make them without boosters.

Thus the game sort of settled down. I was making army groups with 36 bone biters, the guy in charge had a wineskin and cauldron, this grouping need not worry about supply.

I finally push my dominion across the last territory of the little empire to the west. (Why he was still alive I don't know, he must have had a candle somewhere. The game needs to tell us *WHOSE* dominion is in a province, not just friendly/enemy! This is especially important when it's R'yleh dominion!) I have enough groups available that I pounce on every province he has. Two turns later he's gone.

Atlantis decides to get frisky. Next turn half is land is gone, two more turns and he only has a couple of land provinces left--then he pops. (The fact that I had leapfrogged over some of his territory and claimed a few indies and put temples on them probably helped kill him off this way.)

At this point I still have the peaceful contact to the north and war with R'yleh, no other neighbors. My temples are pushing his dominion back, every province that goes white I take. This is going easy but I don't really want to open a new front yet.

My neighbor to the north pops. I send in my dragons and claim 90% of the land and what do I find but Ermor. Strangely enough he's not the big cancer he usually is. He picks a fight anyway, though. I'm producing about one new group per month at this point and I send each group after him. I'm sort of surrounding Bogarus in this and he pops, also. Soon after I finish claiming that territory I finish off Ermor.

Jomon decides to come after me at this point despite being a bit player. This war takes longer because I don't know what black candles are his and what belong to R'yleh.

At this point I have driven R'yleh off the land and have quite a few candles in his water although I don't attempt to take the water. I have up Gift of Health and just put up Gift of Nature's Bounty and I'm summoning the big guys in the capital. (I have not cast a single battlefield spell, nor made any equipment beyond food. I decide I can squander gems to get to the good guys.) My neighbors are R'yleh, Arco (peaceful), C'tis (peaceful) and a little empire in the NE corner. I decide to munch it. I take all the provinces not being seiged by C'tis and get:

Nagot gick fel!
myloadmalloc: can't open ./mods/./dominions 3000/3020_Dragon_Of_Fate_1.tga.

I assume this is a summoning gone wrong.


Comments:

1) I have a problem with the PD. It's got a powerful commander with wimpy units. This results in routs when it could win, making it weaker than the force mix would say.

2) I think the combat power is too great. Other than those bad starts it's been basically a cakewalk. I have yet to lose a commander other than to deliberate suicide. (I was getting rid of a few R'yleh had messed up.) I have had only two forces rout, both when facing pretenders--and in one of those I won anyway.

3) The slot limits make the magic on the commanders less useful than their apparent ability would say and it feels too weak given the theme.

4) The vine dragon shares an image with the non-magic commander.

5) I'm not sure what's up with the ghost dragon assassination. Never once did it actually assassinate anyone, although it's possible this was just bad luck and there weren't any commanders there to hit.

What I would do:

1) Increase the cost of at least the bone biters.

2) Do something to improve the dragon's magic a bit. Perhaps this should take the form of race-specific boosters that fit in misc slots. (Can you do race-specific magic items?)

3) What would be really interesting if it can be done is a spell "Age Dragon". Each dragon would have a set of forms (not the usual Dominion's multiple forms, though) that it would age through. Cast the spell on a dragon and you get one of the next age. (I'm thinking it would really get rid of the old one and make a new one of the new type.) Perhaps this should only be self-targeted, although this would require having multiple spells. This would replace the summons.

4) I'm not sure what to do with the PD.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

Hmm a thing I need to know first: did you use the latest version (if not then the bonebiter have gotten a higher price already)

1. I don't think I want to increase the price that much if they are still way to strong I'll start with taking away the armourpiercing of their claws, leaving just armour piercing bit. Maybe lower attack skill and hp a bit too.

2. I don't think race specific boosters can be done, actually atm I can't even make regular boosters unless I change and existing one I think.
I was thinking they had pretty decen combat magic skill. 3 W, 3 F, 3 E should give some nice options really. Increasing this might be overdoing it a bit. Since combat is so powerfull it might be good to leave magic relatively weaker (might make for a decent AI nation too)

3. Are they really that weak? they should be pretty well usabale for quite some situations. There are still a lot of way of kitting them out that will really help them and improve them (and you have acces to a lot of items)

4. I'll look into that sprite thing (also the dragon of fate thing, though if ou didn't summon him ti woudl be strange since it should be a restricted spell)

5. but you could start an assasination fight right?

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

I think the booster situation isn't dreadful, but you really feel a need for astral in order to make rings. You wouldn't want to use boosters in combat, for sure (except water bracelets, natch).

Combat magic is pretty good off these guys, I'd say. Falling Frost/Fires would probably be a staple, and E3 lets you cast a world of support spells. You'd need either summons or costly boosters to use late game support magic, I guess.

It's hard to tell outside an MP game, but I feel like I'm paying quite a bit for RPs.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

As it stands they devastate everything they've come up against.

They are decent combat mages as it is--that part is fine. The problem comes in the lab, boosting is so hard.

They are reasonable on the battlefield, they stink in the lab--something that feels wrong for a race of dragons.

I did summon him. He apparently showed up, the sprite didn't. The game is now unplayable.

Nothing ever happened. Either something is broken or there never was a commander in the province. I wish there was a message for that situation!

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

I just had a thought on race-specific boosters. I don't know if this can be done or not:

Could they be made summonable? Obviously, this would make the price not affected by things which alter forging but the dragons can't wield hammers anyway.

I'm picturing a spell whose effect is to deliver the item to the lab--think wishing for gems or blood slaves.

The spell could be made race specific.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

One more thing I forgot: The mod is missing a banner.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

hehe banners never are high on my priority list I'll admit but I'll see what I can do :D

back to some of your points:
I think I had a few assasination fights in the past with them so I'm pretty sure that should work
I'll correct the sprite thing

I'm not quite sure I agree that dragons not being good in the lab is so unfitting :D and if you empower them in a new path they have a magic boost so that opens op a lot of options for selective boosting. (the fact you have so much options for the gems was why I had the summon costs lower before. Maybe that should be altered a bit again) (I still can't mod new boosters, that summoning thing isn't possible either i think)

I assume your last reply mean you did have the latest version so I'll have to weaken the bone biters... 3 AP attacks on a recruitable with high prot and HP probably is a bit too much.. I'll need to cut out one attack.

I guess I'll accomodate the pretenders complaints too and create somesort of immmobile dragon statue (will probably mean the others will never be used sadly.. maybe I should use those sprites for other dragons then)

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

If you're going for an immobile pretender, an egg could be appropriate.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

Yeah, they're working this game. It must have been simply bad luck.

Seems wrong for a race named "Magic Incarnate".

What about an age dragon spell? Is that possible?

I think it's the latest.

Yeah, a SC pretender is crazy for this race.


I've got another game going, this time vs 10 difficult AI's on Glory of the Gods. I decided I had been not aggressive enough about expansion and decided to be more so:

End of year 1: I have 21 provinces and should have 23 except I lost two to random events.

End of year 2: I have 94.

End of year 3: About 120 provinces, I didn't count. Arco is reduced to only his fortress which I am sieging. I'm not planning to go in, there's a tough pretender in there. I have to push dominion anyway as R'yleh is in the game, I'll just wait for him to pop. I'm harrying Jotun to keep him on his side of the mountains. I'm at peace with a couple of empires and devoting my effort to smashing Ermor as fast as I can so his dominion doesn't eat the lands too badly. The dragons don't fare nearly as well against Ermor as against the other races, I've had half a dozen routs already.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

Magic incarnate refers to them all having a magic boost for all magic (since they per definition have above avarage (and that is putting it mildly) stats they can't also have above average magic power since that would be overpowering them by definition.)

Age dragon spell can't be done I fear.

OK your example makes it clear that this race can be used in ways that shows they are overpowered. Can you tell me exactly what you did (I'm guessing it's mainly those bonebiters but if I'm going to fix it (prolly work for the weekend) then I'd like to know all of it.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

Every couple of turns I send out an Adamantine Claw Dragon with a couple of turns of bonebiter recruits. This group will almost never lose anyone to an indie. Since it's got a flight move of 3 it's very good at getting to the battle.

I initially tried using some ghost dragons to clear provinces but it's a lot of micromanagement. I'd do it in MP but it's not worth it against the AI.

Next game I'm going to try it with a single turn of recruits.

Note that this has left me way behind on research (I have only two mages at this point, my pretender and a plague dragon that happened by) but so what? In my previous game I didn't need the magic in the first place.

It's summer of 5, Ermor is also sieged and my armies are munching up Utgard. At this point I'm deploying them with 40 bonebiters. I've got 5 castles turning them out, there about 20 such groups out there, 10 of which are smashing Utgard. I have one group in every border province with Abysia, the only other force I'm at war with.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

Followup to the previous message:

It's year 10. 3 enemies remain. Two are water empires, the third is somewhere behind Atlantis. As I utterly neglected magic I have no way to reach it or even see it. I also have no way to enter the water since I have only a few hundred points of research total.

I'm pushing multiple candles per turn into both R'yleh and Atlantis and I have enough bonebiters to take on everything they have without difficulty. The conclusion is apparent, no point in sitting there pressing End Turn.

Next game I'm taking the difficulty up another notch.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

Actually you do have a way into the water, ice plate dragons are amphibious.

Speaking of which, I think they might want to get a #watershape, because at the moment they fly when underwater, which can be a little strange when you have a bunch of them rise up out of the ocean and fly several provinces away. It would also be nice if you had some recruitable amphibious troops, or maybe recruitables that you can only but underwater. Something like a sea serpent?

I agree with loren that the PD should probably be changed. Partly because there really is no point in ever buying more than 1 point of pd... the wyrmlings are just too much cannon fodder, basically they just make the commander flee. It also seems unthematic for dragons to have their young defend against attacks. It would make more sense if the pd was sort of there to guard the wyrmlings... you could keep wyrmlings in there but there should be something meaner to discourage you from killing them.

If you nerf the bonebiters a lot you should take a close look at steel dragons too, they're not too much worse and much more massable. And consider giving poison ivy dragons a boost to their supply bonus so it's easier to fight ermor :angel

The dragons are definitely overpowered in their present state though. I'm playing a game right now with all mighty AIs, and I'm bordered by ermor, gath, and r'lyeh. I've been fighting them for 15+ turns (it is turn 37), the war is annoying because I have to attack into their territory, then fly back out, then in, etc because of supplies. So it's not really going anywhere, and I keep thinking to myself I should just attack gath to get more money to kill ermor with, because I've been stuck with approximately the same amount of territory/money I had at the start of the war due to their evil dominion. They are actually the first nation I've fought able to kill my bonebiters in any significant number, but the best they can do is keep my numbers basically flat, and I am recruiting only ~10 dragons a turn due to upkeep. If I was not working so hard at research I could pull out all my poison ivy dragons and actually make some progress against them, but I really want to do a lot of research in this game and try to get access to the stronger dragons.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

well maybe the supplies being a problem is a nice way to keep it balanced a bit.

I think I'll start with removing one attack from the bonebiters one way or another. Then I'll increase cost of the steel dragons a bit (maybe 5 more gc and rec).

I'll change the PD a bit too, less wyrmlings and more steel dragons I'm thinking.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

I don't think I could have afforded that route anyway, most of my income was going to supporting the vast number of bonebiters I had out there.

By the time I amassed enough it would have been moot as I would have a dominion kill.

Actually quite high PD is still somewhat useful. In that game I put 50 in the stretch where I bordered R'yleh because he kept casting that global that sends the undead fleet around. At that level it packs quite a bit of power. In the range of normal PD levels, though, I would only do 1 point.

I never even looked that much at the steel ones, I tend to favor strong units (in any game) and have a weakness about overlooking useful weaker ones.

Ermor seems to be their weakness. Again and again in that game I watched them rout from armies they could easily defeat otherwise. It looks like the real culprit is ghosts.

[quotue]I've been fighting them for 15+ turns (it is turn 37), the war is annoying because I have to attack into their territory, then fly back out, then in, etc because of supplies.[/quote]

The nature dragon can forge wineskins out of the box, if a plague dragon shows up he can forge cauldrons. One of each will support a 36-bonebiter unit in Ermor lands.

I never lost all that many, just had them rout all over the place.

Beware of the problem I had with the dragon of fate--it killed the game.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

I was being facetious about the supply bonus az, I don't really think you should raise it :)

"Actually quite high PD is still somewhat useful. In that game I put 50 in the stretch where I bordered R'yleh because he kept casting that global that sends the undead fleet around. At that level it packs quite a bit of power. In the range of normal PD levels, though, I would only do 1 point."

Heh, they cast that in my game as well. Which proved very annoying this last turn as it killed four ice plated dragons that were trying to get to a lake with a small undead army that's been forcing me to guard against it for several turns because they're right next to some temples.

"I never even looked that much at the steel ones, I tend to favor strong units (in any game) and have a weakness about overlooking useful weaker ones."

I recruit steel dragons when I've queued all the bonebiters I can and still have resources left over. It's a good way to help boost numbers quickly, especially early on. They're probably better on a per-resource basis than bonebiters but the bonebiters are still more gold-efficient.

I really should build wineskins, I've just been hording gems for summons because I am trying to win in the least efficient way possible!

That's a good point, here I've been busily building astral boosters when there's no good reason to, I'll crash the game and then where will I be. Btw I am now fighting gath and ermor at the same time and winning :)

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

Just starting out against a dozen Mighty AI's. I grabbed some steel dragons at the start but after taking the provinces next to my capital I'm gold limited, not resource limited.

There is also the issue that resources don't cost upkeep, gold does.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

I really like this mod, but I'm somewhat getting lost with all the updates. Do you think it would be possible to add a version # to the post subject?

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

will try to remember that for next time.. I'll be able to do an update in the weekend, probably not sooner though, quite busy with stuff.

Nice to hear you like the mod btw, will certainly make me put more effort in getting the balance better.

I'd like to thank all of you for your help so far and hope you will continue it till we get it right :D

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

Results of the previously mentioned game:

One turn of recruits usually doesn't take losses against an indie province.

This time I got an initial starting position nowhere near as good for rapid expansion but I had 27 provinces at year's end, anyway despite being at war.

Pangea fell in year 2.
Year 3 saw C'tis and Man gone.
Year 4 was the end of Gath.
Year 5 and Caelum and Utgard were no more.
In Year 6, Patala and T'ien Ch'i meet their doom. They would have fallen in 5 except I had to get rid of their toehold in the water.
I had to spend a fair amount of time repositioning, it was year 8 before Ulm was no more.
At this point I was at peace and used the time to fix a very bad supply situation and get some globals up.
Returning to war, year 10 saw the end of Pythium and Arco.
All that's left is Atlantis and I see no point in bothering. I'm way ahead on dominion (although probably half of the map doesn't have a single candle from anyone) and have Gift of Health, Gift of Nature's Bounty, Wrath of God and Strands of Arcane Power up. All have at least 100 extra gems, they aren't coming down. I could finish it reasonably quickly with Thestis' Blessing.

I used no combat spells, forged no items beyond food & rings. All those globals are from a well-boosted seraph, not the dragons. (And the seraph originally came from my oracle pretender.) The only spells cast by any dragon are site-searching and GORing the Seraph.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

OK I get it.. this weekend I'll nerve the 2 combat recruit :D etc etc

summoning a seraph is a crime IMHO when playing this nation.. enough very good summon in there dammit :D

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

I like the concept, and look forward to trying the mod.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

When I tried to summon that good astral one the game died, remember?

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

there are others though

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

Somehow I was expecting to hear something more along the lines of, "But I fixed it". ;)

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

will be but I'm having time problems here, seems my gf's mother became 50 this weekend... so needed to have dinner somewhere with them and tomorrow the rest of the family is coming there...

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

More observations:

I just whipped a batch of Impossible AI's. (Dominions 3.21)

Again, magic hardly played a role. I've changed my thoughts on their spellcasting: I would reduce their casting and I would get rid of the "Magic Incarnate" in their description. They don't need the magic, they are physically strong, why should they have good magic?

One turn of production, no bless will defeat almost any indie province. Not even Hinnom can do that.

Running up the difficulty level doesn't seem to make much difference to how this race does--it simply marches over anything even at impossible. Units rarely die no matter what you do, if you're overmatched you generally rout but get back almost everything unless you get cut off.

This game lasted only until the summer of 09. Knowing R'yleh was out there I built a lot of temples from the start. There were a dozen Impossible AI's, I got the same bad start I did last game. I managed to completely (except for water) surround Man and separately surround Abysia. Of course they reacted with war and were quickly annihlated. By the time I had disposed of those who declared war on me I had half the map. At that point I started munching on neighbors.

The nerf they did to R'yleh really hurt the AI--he barely got out of the lower lake of the left water (Glory of the Gods) and got chased back there by Mictlan! While I was smashing the empires in the NW Mictlan got dominion-killed by everyone else--when Mictlan popped I had 10 candles in every R'yleh province but he persisted for another 6 months! At this point I was steamrollering over Gath (the last land empire) and when I was done there were two empires that had escaped to the water and Gath held dominion over most of the NW lake.

I started forging boosters for Thestis' blessing but it turned out to be moot--I cast it and the game ended on dominion.

The only race I ever passed in research was R'yleh and remember they were confined to the southern lake--they never were remotely competitive.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

Sounds really good for SP, but w/out magic I assume you would get murdered in MP.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

Er, yeah. Research is pretty costly for Dragons as it is, and there's always the temptation to use your researchers as thugs.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

hmm truman, what I hear now you'd stealroll over everyone in MP too.. but I still intend to change some things a bit.. hopefully next weekend.. need to get a manuscript (case report actually) out for a medical journal (my boss keeps pushing me) and I've just bought a new book and I'm playing fall-out 3 so my free time is a bit scarse.. of and my GF is 8 months pregnant so need to do more around the house too (I know excuses excuses but fact is I just have less time for modding on my hands )

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

You could probably take out everyone on a smaller map before magic became a big factor.

One turn of recruits will take down almost any indie province. To have any hope of surviving the dragons you would have to cast anti-flight magic on the first turn of battle. Even if the big mage-supported armies can beat the dragons they'll be eaten alive by raiding--PD simply won't stop them at any sane level. Most remote-attack spells won't touch them, either.

Fresh from the barracks not only are the commanders good thugs but even the bonebiters are reasonable thugs.

The lack of slots means you won't be fielding true SC's but when you can field them on turn #1 it doesn't matter.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

Okay, having never played MP I was sort of drawing on what I have read.

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

I haven't played this mod (I should probably get around to that, and finishing my little review of the Orks (I still haven't fixed the crippling Ork bug in my copy so I can't really continue until I do), and starting another nation), but I hear the phrase (paraphrased) "one turn of recruits can steamroll most indies". Can I suggest, as well as maybe cutting back on the strength of the units a little bit, increasing the cost? Dragons aren't liable to join a war for very little, considering they're powerful enough in their own right (every dragon could become a god, why die in another god's service?). Dragons should (in my mind, at least; not sure about Aezeal's) be a tiny, tiny force with an incredible amount of power. Sure, you might rely on recruitables for a while, but I suggest making the summons (thugs and SCs mostly, if not totally) so strong, one eventually just drops them, to conserve gold from the upkeep said dragons will require, being dragons.

Not sure how true this is currently, though. And, like I said, I haven't played this mod, so I guess it's sort of like a person blind from birth talking about how his favorite color is blue (no, yellow!). :angel

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate UPDATE
 

hmmm well the story behind the dragons is that the younger ones could be more easily rallied for the cause and the more poerfull elders need bribing (summoning with gems) and the summons are scalingup to very very powerfull, maybe not THE most powerfull in the game but certainly up there and since there is a varity of them they all have certain nice options, special abilities and resistances (between them I think nearly all special creature commands have been used, the most powerfull having resistances in most catagories with 2 of them 100%) only drawback are not having full slots (which is intended for balance reasons and not going to be changed)

PS basicly not all of the dragons can become a god.. they HAVE an insanely powerfull god of their own ot fight for.. he's just locked away by the pantokrator in ages past. THey can however become very powerfull :D... the dragon that existed in the game as pretenders are not of this race... strange shapeshifting abomonations not worthy to be part of this race. (a bit confusing maybe but that is how it is)

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate V1.00
 

New version (let's call it 1.00) is out

I've changed
- steel and bonebiter dragon have been changed (bone biter more than steel): higher Gd and resc, lower prot, hp, and one less attack
- The awesome vinedragon pics (well IMHO) are now actually in the game (they existed all the time but I didn't use them for some reason...) --> let me hear if you like this dragon.. it's.. different.
- Dragon of fate should be fixed
- new pretender, immobile statue
- PD has been changed (a bit improved but still not so good I think, less wrmlings as requested)
- leadership of the recruitable mage dragons has been lowered
- the cap only stargazer has a research bonus to improve research a bit to make magic more of an option now (hopefully) your armies can't destroy the world on their own.

PS I know it's not how it should be but I've not tested this yet (no time no time) but most where just small stat changes so it should all work I hope.

OW and I've made a banner :D

Re: New Nation: Dragons, Magic Incarnate V1.00
 

Tried the revision. Two games vs 12 impossible AI's.

#1: I was trapped behind Ermor. Even the old version of the race died in this situation, it simply can't cope with Ermor early on. Your troops get scared off.

#2: It expanded very fast but nowhere near as fast as before. Good strike groups need 2-3 months of recruits. Of course, the AI's strength calculation messes up and everyone thought I was easy pickings. I had conquered most of Tian Chi's space but one powerful army remained, Man wasn't much of a threat anymore, Gath wasn't after my core lands yet but then Atlantis stormed ashore over a wide front with huge armies. The situation was hopeless.