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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hadrian Aventine:
So far, I have gathered that it was a 757 or 767 that hit the Pentagon and the same on the Trade Towers... New York... It looks shorter... John McCain has said that he'll support a Full Declaration of War aganist the patron country of this attack. Personally, I think the US needs to pull together and takes these Sons'a'*****es out. On top of that, REBUILD the Trade Towers. Screw them fanatics, we need to rebuild and retalliate. Sadly.. I don't think bush is up to it... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> i'm think that Bush is up to it...and even more, that's what i'm afraid of Either way, i agree that this can't go unpunished. |
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Hell yes man!
[ June 13, 2003, 06:58: Message edited by: General Talashar ] |
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I just had a somewhat sickening thought. What if this is just a diVersion? I think we've all heard of the scenario in which a vial of anthrax is dropped in front of a subway train...
The problem with spending time writing spec fiction is you can scare yourself way too easily. LL |
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Excuse me if this is rude, but biological warfare and such is Tom Clancy "If" items.
If anything, I feel more attacks will happen all over. This isn't over. [ June 13, 2003, 06:59: Message edited by: General Talashar ] |
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nope, not over yet. to quote, 'we have not yet begun to fight.' this wont be over until we nail some heads on pikes. The attacks, however, have most likely wained.
this tho, is something for thought: http://vatican.rotten.com/wtc-smoke/ edit: speaking of tom clancy, cnn is linking to some interview with him and citing him as an authority on terrorist's orginizational logistics. no wonder people condenm western culture. [This message has been edited by Puke (edited 11 September 2001).] |
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The sad thing about this attack on U.S. soil is that 99.9% of the people in the world are content with raising a family, making love with their significant other, basically getting on with their lives. The retrobutions will be great, as they have to be! Until the religoius ziolots of the world can understand tolerence (as preached in all major religious teachings)we should not let our gaurd down, and do whatever we can to stamp out this blight on what is pretty much a somewhat sane society. This has angered the sleeping giant to its very core! The retrobutions will shake this planet to its core, what else can the United States do? Terrorists must be somehow be eliminated! Hopefully We (the US) will take an enlightened view. If not I would not want to live in the country responsibe for the finance or this act!! I cannot see the United states sitting idly, emotions are running way too high
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Anybody know what's up with the explosions in Kabul, Afganistan? CNN showed a building on fire.
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oh - my - god
i just heard that someone made a phonecall to one of the planes while it was being hijacked. the person on board described the attackers as having knife like instruments. im sorry, but i am saddend to be an american at this time. what the **** is up with that? over a hundred people on those planes, and not a single one of them with enough balls to pickup their flotation cution and overpower someone wielding a knife like instrument? how many of them could there have been? people are sheep, i swear its true. and where the hell are these illedged 'air cops' that are supposed to be on every flight with a gun? not one plane had an air cop on it? or are you telling me that a guy with a gun cant contend with people wielding knife like instruments? |
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those explosions are cruise missle attacks
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If your having trouble getting to news sites go to the washington post or Slashdot.
They have been working all day. |
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Those were not knifes. They was most likely islamic swords, the name escapes me. I just called the hindu temple and some relatives down the street, they are ready to enlist and go to war.
The attacks are on the taliban government in Kabal Afgahnistan. Most likely a US or US-allied attack. This is what they get for giving shelter to terrorist. [ June 13, 2003, 07:00: Message edited by: General Talashar ] |
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I just got word that 20-30 senators are in favor of a declaration of war against the patron nations
[ June 13, 2003, 07:00: Message edited by: General Talashar ] |
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Well, gas prices all over the nation have more than doubled. Damn profiteering jerks!
As for the who/what/where . . . once again, we're almost 100% likely to be dealing with people who hail no nation as a home base. The sad part about this sort of attack is that while we can(and will) find the people who did this, we'll never have just revenge, because jailing or killing a few fanatic psychopaths will never really solve the inherent problem, which is that we have no wish to go to war in the Middle East over land that's marginally useful(other than the oil). Moreover, our greatest potential enemy, Russia, has her fingers soaked with blood and lost treasure, and might go to war with us if we got really serious about clearing the muddy ground. The world is a dangerous place, because while the concept of Empire has vanished, whilst each of the old imperial powers still continue to excercise their authority through blackmail, monetary policy, and the occasional proxy war. This attack is one of the results. As much as I would like to join in the bloodthirsty cheering for revenge, therefore. . . I can't. We need to make some very hard choices- or just find the isolated scumbags, lock them away, and complacently wait until the next time. . . |
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I just canīt believe what iīm seeing in CNN...
As far as i know, Bin Laden, supposed leader of the terrorists, is refugiated in Afghanistan. But, instead of waiting one or two days for the American intelligence to find out where he is, and drop a bomb over his head, this crazy lunatic of Bush is bombarding the Capital city... I thought Palestinian people were responsible for this... not Afghanistan At least who were celebrating were the palestinians That make US no better than the terrorists... Its only a game of "I hit you because Iīm greater than you, and you canīt fight back" Please stop Bush. Is totally crazy. |
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Actually, AP is reporting that a US Defense official (speaking anonymously of course) indicated that we aren't the ones doing the bombing.
Whether that's _true_ or not we have yet to see. But the general consensus appears to be that bin Laden is involved. As to determining where is is... the Afghan Taliban government allows him asylum. That makes them just as culpable. Therefore glassing them is justified. LL |
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Down with all radical muslim nations. Glass them all to the stoneage. Afganistan shall feel the wrath of the eagle.
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[quote]Originally posted by Joss21:
As far as i know, Bin Laden, supposed leader of the terrorists, is refugiated in Afghanistan. It is too early to say who is responsible. At this point, some Groups that didn't do it will be claiming responsibility because they wish they had done it. And some Groups that didn't do it may be claiming credit on behalf of Groups they are at odds with, hoping to get their enemies blamed, and retaliated against. I thought Palestinian people were responsible for this... not Afghanistan At least who were celebrating were the palestinians It's very important to remember that Arabs are not all the same. Palestinians are not all the same. Not every Palestinian is a terrorist. Not every Palestinian is anti-US, and even most of the ones that are, separate their hatred of the US government from a basic respect for the US people. Some are celebrating this grotesque tragedy, but they are not the ones responsible for the crime. They celebrate because it is a strike against the US and US power. The US has supported Israel's brutal 34-year military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. The Palestinian who you see celebrating on TV news is doing so because the Israeli bulldozer that demolished his sister's home Last week was paid for with money handed over by the US government. It is a matter of saying "now the Americans know what it is to suffer, as we do." It's wrong, but that's the way it is. That make US no better than the terrorists... Its only a game of "I hit you because Iīm greater than you, and you canīt fight back" That is always the policy of strong nations. Many people in the US, as they mourn this tragedy, will not see the context in which such actions take place. They will blame "the Palestinians" and that will be that. There are many Groups in the world that hate US power, and some of them have very legitimate reasons for that, even if their methods of fighting US power are the methods of cowards. I heard comments by one American man-on-the-street about word that the DFLP may have been responsible. He then started raging about Arafat, without realizing that the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine is not the PLO, is not Arafat's group, and in fact is opposed completely to the two-state solution Arafat has been seeking since the early 1990s. Most of the competing Palestinian Groups hate each other, and would kill each other's leaders if they could. Most Americans, unfortunately, know little of the effects of their government's policies abroad. They make little effort to understand other countries and other people. The same Americans who claim to have a deep, basic mistrust of their own government nearly always believe whatever their government has to say concerning national security matters, or matters of war and peace. It's sad. Punish the guilty. But do not single out a race or a nationality or a religion for hatred. Please stop Bush. Is totally crazy. He's not crazy, merely dumb. This gives him a chance to play President. But still, he has to do something. The guilty have to be punished. To all: I have kept my remarks in this post civil. Please remain civil in your flames. [This message has been edited by Natsef-Amun (edited 11 September 2001).] [This message has been edited by Natsef-Amun (edited 12 September 2001).] |
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You may be right, Lazarus..
But this doesnīt help to the image of magnanimous gentlemens you like to believe you are... Donīt take me wrong... I would like to do the same if I were US citizen. I just donīt like americans that says "iīm full of morality" "we are the good guys" "we are the policeman of the world" and then when someone hits them react like an angry teenager, "you hurt my interests, then i will destrou you". Just what i think.... Bush just should wait until there is enough certainty of say, palestine have to do with it, and just then level-off the country. But now, just sound like the government just tried to change the news banners of "USA under attack" for "USA counterattacks" just to calm down people. Iīm in Argentina, and i know this situation will hurt all the world economy, including our "third world" developing countries. I just doesnīt share what you are doing. |
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I totally concord with Natsef-Amun
His toughts are very insightful. Its very visible for us non-americans that the average american citizen dont have idea of the rest of the world around they is doing... |
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joss21:
I just donīt like americans that says "iīm full of morality" "we are the good guys" "we are the policeman of the world" and then when someone hits them react like an angry teenager, "you hurt my interests, then i will destrou you".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> A few things: 1. As I said, we're not bombing anyone yet. Remember that Afghanistan is undergoing a civil war still. As far as anyone can tell right now, they're bombing themselves (or each other, as the case may be called). 2. What do the police and the good guys do in movies, guys? As soon as the bad guys do somethign evil... they go after them. Bombing Afghanistan--if bin Laden and/or the Taliban are, in fact, the culprits--is a proportional, direct, and correct response. Note: That's _if_ they're culpable. Also, I don't believe the Palestinians are culpable here--there've been no signs they are. They're just celebrating it. LL |
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While I am in agreement with Natsef-Amun as well, I think that some of the basics about human nature are being overlooked.
Idealy, it would be very nice indeed to look at each person as an individual and make judgements accordingly. This is not always practical though. I think it is perticularly poignent that the EU is in the process for apologozing for imperalism, when it is the absense of imperalism that empowers decentralized forces to commit acts like this. When world powers can be attacked without any nation taking responsibility, how can there be reprisal? Without reperations, how can there be a return to order without a threat of recurrance? So it is logical for people to dislike and blame those Groups whom express hatred for your own political ideas and culture. And it is unfortunate that innocent individuals get lumped into those Groups. In general, US forign policy benefits the US people. If not the people, then it benefits US industry or commerce, which in turn benefits our people. It is a blanket generization (which you just got done condenming) to say that the average US citizen is ignorant of the impact of our forign policy. We are not ignorant, we merely support what anti-globalists call American-Imperialism. We know full well our policies are disrupting the well being of others, but at the same time they benefit our alies, and in turn benefit us. |
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LazarusLong42:
Note: That's _if_ they're culpable. Also, I don't believe the Palestinians are culpable here--there've been no signs they are. They're just celebrating it. LL <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No kidding. I might not like them, but we screwed them over, and if I were them, Id be celebrating too. Its pretty darn silly to think they had anything to do with it. If they had that kind of resources, you think they would hit Israel. |
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hadrian Aventine:
Those were not knifes. They was most likely islamic swords, the name escapes me<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Ted Olson told CNN that his wife said all passengers and flight personnel, including the pilots, were herded to the back of the plane by armed hijackers. The only weapons she mentioned were knives and cardboard cutters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> sorry for the multiple Posts, but: swords my ***. how the hell is someone going to get a sword past airport security? even on a domestic flight. I get enough crap about the EYELETS on my BOOTS. we're a nation of fat, spineless, sheep. I would have at least given them enough credit to have used shanks the size of a shoe sole, but BOX CUTTERS?! give me a break! as a side note, would that not really screw with the weight distribution of the plane to put all those people in the back? (especially if they are fat americans?) didnt some female pop singer just die on takeoff because her pilot didnt properly distribute the load of the aircraft? |
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I'm stunned at the failure of airport security.
I'm equally stunned at the fact we didn't see this coming. I know that congress will hold joint session in the morning with any luck. Then we shall see if the Federal Union will previal. [ June 13, 2003, 07:01: Message edited by: General Talashar ] |
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Puke, keep in mind the people on the planes likely did not know what the terrorists had planned, until it was too late. This was totally unprecedented.
If you put yourself in the mind of the passangers and crew onboard, you are flying in an airplane with obviously unstable individuals in charge. They no douubt expected the plane to be landed somewhere and demands made, and eventually they would be freed. That's how it normally happens. But today the rules changed. Today the world changed. But the people onboard the planes couldn't know that at the time. In fact we may find out that the reason the fourth plane crashed in penn. is because the passengers discovered via radio or cell phone what was going on and decided to rush the terrorists. The people on board weren't sheep. They were scared. And they assumed the terrorists didn't want to die. Most people don't. Geoschmo |
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This is the most incredible event of my life, hell all of our lives! I am Canadian, but I work a lot in the US and I have many friends and relatives there and I still feel like it is some terrible nightmare. My heart is burdened with the extreme loss suffered by our best friends. There are no two countries in the world like us. We share so many common interests, beliefs and feelings that sometimes you cannot tell us apart. When I travel to the States, one of the biggest compliments that I receive is blending in. I feel at home in the States, just like in Canada. It is my second home.
Reasonable people do not do this. The cowardly bastards who did this will probably not have the balls to even admit it. It is one thing to make war against a countries military, but to attack innocent civilians is the lowest, most despicable act anyone could perpetuate. Terrorism has been with us for many centuries and we have learned that it solves nothing. Acts like this against anyone is not acceptable and must be punished. Most people will regard this as an act of terrorism. But is was not. It was an act of war. And as such, it must be treated as such. Democracies like the US are very susceptible to acts like this. In a FREE country, individual freedoms and rights are fundamental. The dangers to a free country have always been balanced in favor of the individual rights and individual freedoms and as such an act like this can and obviously did happen. What will change now? Are we prepared to make the necessary changes to protect us against another act? I travel through many airports throughout North America very frequently. While security is generally good, it is not as good as in countries that have suffered. In Canada, some leeway is given to members of religious sects to carry their ceremonial daggers on Canadian flights. I wonder if this the same in the US? The weapons were probably a the size of a knife, anything larger would be detected. It is very hard for me to express myself now, my emotions are getting the better of me. My heart goes out to all Americans, GOD BLESS AMERICA! |
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I hope their deaths don't go unrepaid by the full might of the combined forces of the United States.
[ June 13, 2003, 07:02: Message edited by: General Talashar ] |
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im from new york... my prayers for all who died in this terrible stupid attack i hope they all are punished by the fury of the sleeper
------------------ Some rule some serve some declare wars some fight them i declare wars i rule you serve you fight wars..... we are not the same..... never forget that.. |
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post deleted. i should pick my fights, and this is the wrong one at the wrong time. I will have to agree to disagree with Geo on this one.
indeed, this is a day that future generations will ask us about when they talk about it in school. That, and the Berlin wall. Well, for me anyhow. Those of you who lived thru Korea and Viet Nam might have a few more stories to tell. [This message has been edited by Puke (edited 12 September 2001).] |
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I got on PBW just to escape the day and return to some level of normalcy. I couldn't resist reading this posting, however. It has to be the largest number of Posts in a single day on a single topic on Shrapnel.
Someone on TV compared this to Pearl Harbor. It is an inciting event, but much bigger than that. Pearl Harbor was a vicious attack on our military at an off-mainland base. 2,300 died. We anticipated we would eventually be at war with Japan, we just wanted to stay out of it as long as possible. What happened today was magnitudes larger. It was a direct attack on civilians on our mainland. Probably in large excess of 23,000 died. We have been engaged in diplomacy with various nations plagued by terrorism, just wanting to remain distanced. In both cases, they awoke a great sleeping beast. As a physician, I agree with Hadrian and Lazarus. I do not want to be alarmist but this may only be a prelude of things to come. The perpetrators of this trajedy are probably also able to instigate biological terrorism. This is an indiscriminate killer of many more, even those of us seeming protected in the heartland of America. The military is prepared to defend themselves against such a threat, yet there is no good defense nor adequate preparedness among the civilian population. The weapons of choice would be anthrax, smallpox, plague, botulism, E coli, salmonella, cholera, and Ebola. The mechanisms to deliver it to the population are varied: aerosolized sprays, contaminated water, tainted food, infected human carriers. By the time it is recognized, the population will be widely infected and many dead. May the dead and those family members who have lost or are missing loved ones find some peace in the face of this unprecedented trajedy. May God strengthen and repair our broken spirit. It is to all Americans affected by this disaster that I dedicate my signature: ------------------ The Good Doc "Henceforth I spread confident wings to space I fear no barrier of crystal or glass; I cleave the heavens and soar to the infinite. And while I rise from my own globe to others And penetrate even further through the eternal field, That which others saw from afar, I leave far behind me." -Giordano Bruno "On the Infinite Universe and Worlds," 1584 |
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>how the hell is someone going to get a sword past airport security<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Very easily. Ever been strip-searched? Didn't think so. So tape it to yourself. What about the metal detectors, you ask? Proper material, they won't be set off. (a knife or very short sword.. or gun.. is more likey). Second, why didn't they do anything? Well, they didn't want to die, and they more than likely has no idea what was about to happen. Phoenix-D |
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This is friggin sick.
http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/pr...68594&zoom=yes In case someone gets an attack of sense, what this is is a t-shirt. On the front: "I crashed a plane into the world trade center" On the back: "and all I got was this lousy t-shirt." Phoenix-D |
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Very easily. Ever been strip-searched? Didn't think so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> no, but im patted down quite often. it might just be flattery for my nice ***, but i think its because airport security is fairly vigilant. I think it would be MUCH easier just to conceal a broad, flexible, 7 inch blade in the sole of your shoe. as long as you had eyelets or buckles or steeltoes or something to blame it on, i dont think you would have a problem at all. a gun would be quite the trick though. it would need to be a single shot weapon, homemade, and you would need to carry the bullets in something seperate like your wallet that you could drop in the tray and not have scanned. even with a gun, i think you could only count on getting one shot off. i would hate to be embarassed by a misfire with my only shot, and on a holy crusade that kind of embarasment would be relly bad. maybe they could have a bunch of people come thru with gun parts and then the guy with the ticket could assemble them in the bathroom and stuff it in his carry-on after he is thru security. If i stripped my automatic down to component parts, the only thing that would be recognized by the xray technicians would be the lower reciever. and i think i could fix that with a saw, a bracket, and a couple bolts. that or use something with a carbon fiber lower so you can conceal it on your person, and re-attach it to the upper on the other side. |
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
This is friggin sick. http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/pr...68594&zoom=yes <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> well, that didnt take long. on the one hand, i am apauled by the banality of our culture. on the other hand, i remember the 'i survived the terror in the towers' shirts from '93, and i think its good that people are able to recover and make light of the situation. it is indeed tragic, but the markets must open, and people must attend, or we really are victims of terror. |
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Some points to ponder.
Supposedly someone close to Osama bin Laden told a European (British?) newspaper three weeks ago that bin Laden was going to do something big and bad to the US. My boss at work has been reading Nostradamus and has concluded that bin Laden, not Saddam Hussein, is the third Antichrist (after Napoleon and Hitler). (There's also a $5 million dollar bounty on his head, but my guess is it will take more than $5 million to catch him.) Note the weapon of choice in these attacks: American planes to destroy American lives. Kinda like ripping your arm off and beating you to death with it. Reading on the internet this afternoon, every single nation's government that I saw had responded expressed sorrow, shock, horror, etc. at this act, including Yassar Arafat and the Taliban in Afghanistan. The only responses not condemning the attack were from some militant Muslim sects. ('Course, the cynic in me takes some of those responses with a grain of salt. The Taliban may just be trying to divert attention away from themselves as the next logical target. But the idealist in me, bruised though it is this day, still believes in the basic goodness of humanity.) And I know that not all Muslims are extremists. But I will never understand what would drive someone to do such an act. The dead and missing, at Last count: 260 airline passengers and crews 300 NYC firefighters 80 NYC policemen 800 Pentagon employees and God knows how many in and around the WTC But, by God, there are people still alive under all that rubble! What to do with the site now? I had thought of a memorial, a la Oklahoma City. But my wife pointed out that that is prime real estate, and it would be a much bigger 'Screw you' if the WTC were rebuilt. I apologize for the disjointed stream of conciousness in this post. My mind is still reeling-- at the images of the planes crashing into the WTC (CNN just showed a home video of the FIRST plane crashing), at the idea of a national landmark collapsing in ruins, at the idea of thousands of people dying because of the irrational thought process of a small number of individuals... and at the war that the US has suddenly found itself in. (I say suddenly, but I think we all knew that this day was coming-- just maybe not of such magnitude.) All I can do right now is keep on keeping on. But I have said a prayer for the victims, their families, and the brave men and women who put themselves in harm's way trying to rescue the victims. And I almost never pray, heathen that I am. Quikngruvn, still in shock |
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As I am new here, I will try and keep my post small.
What transpired today, the horror of senseless terrorism against innocent people, has now become the poster for Islam. No matter who follows that religion, they will forever be known as murders and terrorists. This is regrettable in that there are many millions of Islamic followers that would never harm any one and now must bare the stigma of what a few have done in the name of Islam. My heart goes out to those people, and indeed to the victims of today's evil, and I would hope and pray that somehow, in some small way, people can find it in their hearts not to blame all of Islam for the acts of these cowards. |
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You gotta hate people who bomb innocent civilians.
This has to be the worst act of terrorism since the U.S. detonated atomic bombs on innocent civilians. I certainly hope people like that pay for their evil acts. |
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I am deeply saddened by this horrible event. Driving home from work yesterday there were tears in my eyes at the reports of desperate ppl jumping to their deaths to escape the disaster area.
The important thing now is what the US government does next. There has been plenty of macho posturing and tough talk about revenge. This is not only ineffectual, but cheap and deeply disrespectful to the casualties of the disaster. What is needed is justice and an end to the hatred. Remember that justice and revenge are two entirely different things. Cheap gestures to appease an angry public (ie randomly blowing stuff up in the middle east) would not do anything to eliminate or pacify the terrorist Groups invloved. The anger of the people must *not* be reflected in the actions of the government. I'm not saying sit back and do nothing, but pick your targts carefully, and do not stoop to the brutal standards of the enemy. Act according to logic, reason and conmpassion rather than for emotion or public relations. To do otherwise would a step in the direction of mob rule and anarchy- the opposite of democracy. Of course the US has officially denied involvement in the Afghanistani bombings. I hope that this denial is true, and that future actions will be well informed and carefully calculated operations. Somehow I don't think my hopes will be realised. EDIT: I also want to support the earlier post about Islam. The Islamic religion advocates peace and tolerance. Unfortunatly, it has been twistd into a weapon by certain Groups, just as Christianity was abused countless times to justify appalling things like the crusades or the spanish inquisition. Don't hate Muslims for this. ------------------ SE4 Code: L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G- /SE4 Code Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code. [This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 12 September 2001).] |
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With all due respect to the countless victims at the WTC, I think that the Pentagon attack is more important. The reason for this is that the Pentagon is a US _MILITARY_ installation. Using aircraft in a kamakazi role changes them from a vehicle designation to a weapon. Firing a weapon against a Military installation is AN ACT OF WAR according to the Geneva Convention (I think it was the GC, anyway). Granted, the culprit (alleged) is an individual, not a country, and a nation-state cannot wage war against an individual. However, said individual is being _knowingly_ harbored and protected by a nation-state, which in my eyes makes the nation-state culpable as well. And war CAN be declared on a nation-state, as we all know.
Note: I am not saying this is a good thing; in fact, just the opposite. A paraphrased quote from a movie (cant remember the name) sums it up best, I think: "Here and now, in the nuclear age, the real enemy is not a nation, but war itself." So the question is: does President Bush hold a similar view, or will the US get into ANOTHER armed conflict/war? From what I've heard, he and I are not of a like mind. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif One final note (and favorite phrase from a book): The terrorists think that god is on their side. For their sake, I hope so, because they have angered a sleeping giant, and all the "power and rage of this country" shall be turned against these misguided souls. They got in a good second punch; unfortunately they are the 120 lb fighter who caught the heavyweight champion in the chin with that second punch. [This message has been edited by dumbluck (edited 12 September 2001).] |
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geoschmo:
...In fact we may find out that the reason the fourth plane crashed in penn. is because the passengers discovered via radio or cell phone what was going on and decided to rush the terrorists. The people on board weren't sheep. They were scared. And they assumed the terrorists didn't want to die. Most people don't. Geoschmo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> According to news reports this morning, a man on that 4th plane called his wife and told her he loved her and was going to die 'c ause him and a few other passengers were going to rush the terrorists. Also, same report said that the plane was suspected to be heading to Washington DC instead of Camp David as originally reported. I agree also that the people on the other plane probably did not realize it was a suicide mission. Most (not all of course) hijacking you hear about ends with the plane landing at another airport in another country and someone usually negotiates for SOMETHING. Lastly, its very easy to play 'armchair quarterback' and unless you're actually there faced with the actual circumstances, its impossible to predict what you actually would do. I am by no means saying that everyone did everything they possibly could, I'm just saying its difficult to predict what one would do faced with impending death untill you're actually facing it. Reguardless, this was a terrible event for the world, not just the U.S. Of course, the world is really rather small and not everyone is going to 'get along' with everyone else. I don't know the answers, but we have all seen the problems....... |
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We are all shaken and disturbed by this. But the feeling of the day seems to be helpless.
Two fears: 1. A general association with Islam and terrorism by those less educated. A have heard remarks that here in the US: "we should beat down some towelheads at the gas station." Need I point out how ignorant this sounds? Is it not obvios that all Muslims are not terrorists? If we nuke Middle Eastern nations, et al, do we weed out their US relatives and exterminate them as well? 2. Terrorists are not easily detected. I'm sure someone will pay the price for this attack but it may not be the parties responsible. Those of us who are so angry (that we want to vomit) cry for bloodshed, punishment and retribution. But we are the victims of too many Harrison Ford movies. In real life, these Groups are as crafty and intelligent as we are- and they go the extra step to dedicate and willingly give their life for their cause. This is something unprecendented- not the act of a nation or reasonable leader we can declare war against- but the monstrous actions of a secret society. Our successful infiltration of these factions has been either poor or negligible. Our satelletites and survellience equipment master the topography, but these terrorists are masters of the underground. The answer here is quite a bit more complicated. |
Re: War....
I do not support attacks against Arab Americans in "retaliation" for what happened yesterday. Anybody supporting that would be as ignorant and evil as the people who perpetrated this act.
Not all Islamic people are terrorists. In fact no true follower of Islam could support the taking of an innocent life. That being said I am sickened and outraged by the images of Palestinian people dancing and celebrating these attacks. Regardless of American support for Israel, nobody has EVER seen footage of Americans dancing in the street when Israeli soldiers kill Palestinians. In fact I have never seen footage of Israeli citizens celebrating in the streets over the loss of Palestinian lives. What they usually do is feel sorrow over the tragic loss of life on both sides. Don't try and tell me it's justified because of the actions of the Israelis or the Americans supporting them. What kind of society can celebrate the horrendous acts of terrorism that took place yesterday? What kind of sick person can take pleasure in the suffering of another person, even someone who is your enemy? I don't understand. I never will. Geoschmo |
Re: War....
Yesterday on my college campus, people were already giving Middle Eastern students dirty looks. It's sad, especially on a liberal arts campus like Sarah Lawrence.
Hopefully people here have come to their senses, and I wish people everywhere would. An eye for an eye just doesn't work anymore, it only leads into a downwards spiral. As it stands now, however, from what I've heard (and this is not official or being talked about on the news, so take it with a grain of salt), over 2/3 of America's entire military is mobilized for action, the nation is at DEFCON 3, and the reason for skyrocketing oil and gas prices within the past 24 hours is due to it being requisitioned for military use. Looks like the Chinese finally got us. We are living in interesting times indeed. |
Re: War....
The Taliban(whose 'government' is the prime suspect, as they're harboring Osama Bin Ladin) are, in a very real sense, our monster. We created the Taliban as a fanatical nationalistic and religious group, to defeat the Soviets. We trained them. We armed them. And we turned a blind eye to their excesses.
We(and the retreating Soviets) left behind an arsenal that's totally out of proportion with the size of the country. And then we're surprised that these well-armed, battle-scarred religious fanatics have resisted all calls to moderate their ways? Please. . . Our problem here is a fundamental one- we have a philosophical conflict with the radical Islamists, who : 1. Realize that liberal Western ways are infinately more fun than their way of life, and will steadily corrupt and disrupt their carefully-constructed societies. 2. Have seen what happens to other traditional societies when Western ideas begin to dismantle the traditional social order- chaos, disorder, and ultimately the removal of non-progressive leadership ensue, and that's not something that any authoritarian appreciates. Note China, North Korea, and Vietnam's longstanding war against Western ideas. China has struck a delicate balance between the iron fist and open arms, but they often fire up their hatred machinery in order to keep themselves firmly in control of national politics. For that matter, so does our government. 3. Noticed that most societies seem to need to have an enemy. We're the easiest choice for these sorts of Groups- the democratic socialists of Europe, while historically responsible for most of the problems of this area of the world, aren't the power-that-is. That, and Europe doesn't sell Isreal a lot of weaponry. 4. Isreal's continued existence is a fearful reminder that all things are transient. If I were a Saudi prince, I'd look at Isreal's displaced Palestinian Arabs and say, "but for the grace of Allah go I". Anyhow, I'm hardly a cowardly racist- I'm part Iroquois, German and Swedish, so I look vaguely Jewish/Arabic, I talk like a native of my state, and I have friends from all over the world. And I don't advocate the eradication of a people- that would put me on a par with Nazis and other thugs. At the same time, I don't think that we're going to see an end to these sorts of attacks until we have dismantled the nations responsible for their funding, training, and support. I hate jingoistic rhetoric, but unlike some who have responded to the events here, I don't think that we should accept this as just one of the costs of being a superpower. In short, if the radicals of the world want a war, we should bring it to them, wherever governments with foolish ideas about their best interests accept them. |
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by Hadrian Aventine: Excuse me if this is rude, but biological warfare and such is Tom Clancy "If" items. Originally posted by Puke: speaking of tom clancy, cnn is linking to some interview with him and citing him as an authority on terrorist's orginizational logistics. no wonder people condenm western culture.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yesterday as I stared in shock at my television screen, something about the whole scenario seemed eerily familiar. Last night I finally remembered what it was. In 1996 I read a book by Tom Clancy called Executive Orders. In the book, terrorists crash a 747 into the capitol building, killing almost everyone inside. It's almost spooky re-reading the scenes of devastation in light of what's happened. I have to say that I, too, am stunned that we didn't see this coming. If Tom Clancy, a novel writer, could predict an airliner being used as a terrorist weapon, why the hell is American Intelligence scratching their collective heads saying "Gee...I dunno. We never really thought about this kinda thing." A couple of other warning signs that went unheeded: Remember the small plane that managed to crash into the Clinton white house? Even the Columbine shooters wrote about stealing/hijacking a plane and crashing it into Washington. I don't mean to be critical. I'm just saddened that it took such a tragic loss of life to get the US to wake up. Solar [This message has been edited by Solar (edited 12 September 2001).] [This message has been edited by Solar (edited 12 September 2001).] [This message has been edited by Solar (edited 12 September 2001).] |
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I can't help but rebut some comments posted here. Here goes:
1) Israel's military occupation of the West Bank began after they defeated a bunch of enemies, INCLUDING THE PALESTINIANS, who tried to push them into the sea. Question for all you SEIV players: What do you do with a defeated enemy? Give him all his planets back, and no apology necessary? 2) This occupation has not been brutal, as alleged on this forum. In fact, the West Bank has seen unprecedented prosperity over the Last 34 years. The West Bank Palestinians are much wealthier than the Syrian or Jordanian Palestinians. And it wouldn't have gone on for 34 years if the PLO and other Palestinian Groups had not made it their mission to destroy Israel. 3) To compare the "intifada" casualties to the recent US deaths is pure BS. First, most of the intifada deaths either occurred during a riot or were assassinations of known terrorists (or harborers of terrorists). Innocent civilian deaths, although certainly tragic, have been a small minority. Second, the numbers of intifada deaths, innocent or otherwise, do not approach 30,000, not even after 34 years of supposedly brutal military occupation. 4) To compare the economic casualties of the intifada to the recent US destruction is pure BS. The whole West Bank isn't worth one World Trade Center tower. 5) To say that Islam is really a nice, sweet religion is pure BS. Maybe this is true of most Muslims in the West, but it certainly isn't true worldwide. Fact: there is not one Muslim country in the whole world that has real freedom of religion. Even in relatively progressive Muslim countries like Egypt or Saudi Arabia, Muslims who convert to other religions are routinely murdered and the government does nothing. Maybe the majority of Muslims in those countries don't condone that behavior, but they don't stop it either. Their reaction is never more than "tsk tsk" and a slap on the wrist. The Islamics worldwide who hate America don't hate us because of our wealth or our power -- they hate us for the same reason that they hate the Israelis: because we are not Muslims, plain and simple! |
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Aside from trying to "hunt down" the perpetrators of this dispicable act, we should be asking ourselves "How do we prevent this in the future?" I am personally shocked that the airspace around the Pentagon is not more tightly regulated. If there weren't SAM sites around the Capital, there should be soon. Of course, being ordered to shoot down a plane full of US Citizens would be a trying experience to say the least.
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Re: War....
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Solar:
[BI have to say that I, too, am stunned that we didn't see this coming. If Tom Clancy, a novel writer, could predict an airliner being used as a terrorist weapon, why the hell is American Intelligence scratching their collective heads saying "Gee...I dunno. We never really thought about this kinda thing."[/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You are way off the mark here. Of course our intelligence operations thought about this sort of thing happening. But thinking about it and preventing it are too different things. In the days and weeks to come we are going to hear tons of reports of information that someone should have been able to see this coming. Some of this will be rumor, but some of it will be true. But none of it changes the fact that it's very hard to infiltrate an organization such as this and discover their plans. And nearly inpossible to stop them once they have been put into motion. How do you infiltrate an orginization who's members have dedicated their lives to. Not only that they are willing to die, but that their goal is to die in the performance of their mission? And if you decide that's too hard, how do you stop an operation like this once it's started? Strip searches at airports? Armed guards on every airplane? Fighter escorts for every airplane flying over populated areas, with orders to fire upon a fully loaded plane with innocent passengers if they deviate one iota from there prescribed flight plan? We could move the airports 100 miles from any major city I guess. The only way to stop things is to punish those responsible so that they they cannot do such things again. If Bin Laden turns out to be responsible as most early indications point too, then the way we could have prevented this was to punish him for his terrorist activites over the Last 10+ years. At the very least hounding him and pressuring other governments to not allow him sanctuary would have kept him on the run and unable to plan and execute this acts. Geoschmo |
Re: War....
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by geoschmo: <snip> The only way to stop things is to punish those responsible so that they they cannot do such things again. If Bin Laden turns out to be responsible as most early indications point too, then the way we could have prevented this was to punish him for his terrorist activites over the Last 10+ years. At the very least hounding him and pressuring other governments to not allow him sanctuary would have kept him on the run and unable to plan and execute this acts. <snip> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm with Geo on this one. We need to find out who did this and make very sure that they (and anyone else who is like minded) find out that attacking Americans is a BAD thing, and doing so carries with it BAD consequences. For those who don't like Americans claiming high moral ground, think about this: somebody just killed thousands, or more probably, tens of thousands of people for no reason other than to kill and cause terror. You will have to excuse us for taking the high moral ground in going after them. |
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