Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

I'm totally with mr. Gandalf for a large random map with many chokepoints ;)

VP in role we could talk about them like important points from which pass the vectors of the world (a lÃ* Black Tower of Stephen King) which the people somehow know (or have a confused idea) they must control in order to leth their god ascend. If someone could also mod the VP to be also "many sites" provinces it would be perfect IMHO :cool:

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

I would prefer if it would be a game without VPs, as they promote strange Airdrop operations that are not really explainable in a RP way. Or then make it like King of the Hill that there are some provinces containing the shrines that have to be controlled to cast the spell of ascension. So you have to conquer all shrines and hold them for 3 months to finish the spell of ascension (Even with normal VPs the holding part is important, as it gives people chance to defend against strange air drops). But i would not use the game VP victory function, as it will make the game to come to a very abrupt ending.

Also i would not change indys, as it breaks some nations expansion. I would also vote for HoF 15 and higher magic. Maybe even higher gold and resources.

Also maybe some house rule, that every army has to include at least 3 troop types with over 20% share of total, so that it is encouraged to create differentiated armies with more flavor over min-maxed ones that are made of almost only one troop type.

Also there might be some gamey strategys that should be banned in advance, to create a more rpg-kind of atmosphere.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Personally I don't think I could manage strange rules :shock: Little and overloaded memory and low playing experience make a bad synergy to cope with this... :o

PS: Hey Gandalf, that map is a...wow! What about even a sepia effect for the map, like the one you and others were discussing about in that thread a couple of weeks ago..? :)

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

AFAIK the guy who owns the domain is known here as Sedna, Puffyn is his wife.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Thanks. Thats available on my download page.
http://www.dom3minions.com/downloads.htm

I set colors and map settings when I generate maps. I hate snow and snow-looking maps. I also dislike plains that are brown. The settings are scripted so it would be really easy to generate a batch of maps if we decide we needed one that was 250 or 500 or whatever provinces. Like this page of my current project maps.
http://www.dom3minions.com/RandomMap...rs/Keepers.htm

I have been playing with running them thru programs to lower the number of colors in the map in order to make the file size smaller for laptop players and people with low memory. But that project got pushed aside by other. Thanks for reminding me.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

I agree that a number of chokepoints on a map ia always good. Though I don't like random maps as they were some time ago (don't know whether 3.20-3.21 made them better)...
And I agree with Tifone that there ARE good rationalizations for VP provinces... And iirc there was some way to make such provinces contain more sites. Maybe a "hold for 3 turns" version is really better for this game, though. But in any case VPs add one more strategic dimension and eliminate over-bogged-down games...

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

And my most sincere thanks for a project to decrease mapfile sizes! Last time I tried your map I couldn't find patience enough for it to finish loading... ;) Though as seen through viewer, it was quite good-looking... :(

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

I think as djo said having a small map is really important. A large map not only causes much more micromanagement as the game drags on, it delays the time until AARs get interactive. Then there is the fact that if the stories revolves around particular commanders, the bigger the map the more there are and the less actually important they are. In particular a random map seems a bit counter to a RP game given how generic they look.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Maybe the Faerun Adventure Map would be nice?

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

I support QM on the organisation ideas.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

I also prefer smaller maps. Especially in an RP setting.

I'm also for VP's. It gives the game an end and something RP'ish to fight for. The end might be abrupt, but that doesn't limit the RP/writing joy of the game up to that time.

I consider the writing and RP stuff the most fun part of this kind of game and I will assume that this goes for most people. Thus we are less intent on winning, and more intent on creating interesting stories of a new world :)

When you have all adopted this doctrine and sit and scribble great literature by candle light I will slaughter you all and claim what is mine! :)

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

I'm also interested if this would be a slow game.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

I won't even think of joining this game as my track record is even worse than it was back in the days of Yarnspinners... I'll volunteer if you need an overseer Ã* la Yarnspinners 2, though.

(The overseer nation was responsible for handing out astral pearls, but it seems you won't go for that this time around, and taking snapshots of the map, but lch has another way of achieving that.

It might also be interesting to give vague graph info as opposed to the in-game graphs or nothing at all... so you'd get some sort of idea of how the nations rank compared to each other every few turns, but nothing more specific. I've done that in Entwined Destinies on Yvelina's suggestion)

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Well, I think I've read enough to put up my thoughts on things.

Size of map & structure of terrain: I would suggest that most starting locations should have no more than a three province buffer between them, since a lot of the intrinsic tension of any narratives from the game would arise from the presence of competitors for 'ascension'. However, I don't want neighbours to have to destroy one another. Thus, a map which has a fairly large amount of available terrain and plenty of choke-points would be nice, but a high concentration of starting locations would also be nice. I shall have to have a browse through some possible maps and see what I can see.

VPs: I still prefer a VP scenario, since it provides a goal beyond genocide. In light of a few suggestions, I think cumulative VPs would work very well. Assume that VP provinces are a conflux of ley lines, a holy site &c &c. Every summer solstice rituals can be performed which further a Pretender's rise to true godhood. What exactly the sites are is really up to the belief system of the nation, but regardless of the beliefs, they still work.
One potential setup would have many provinces worth one VP per summer and some worth more. With a plurality of sites to nations it becomes possible to try and put together a strategy of attacking high VP sites in early summer and trying to hold them for a turn or controlling a lot of low VP sites.
I'm not sure whether it's tenable, but it may be possible to hide the VP sites, such that a nation only knows that it is one once they've claimed it. This would probably mean manually setting each VP site to have a specific magical site that does not appear in normal play.

It's starting to look like it might be easier to put together a map myself than find one that suits my needs, but I'd rather have plently of players than a game that exactly matches my preferences, so people's thoughts would be appreciated.

If I end up making a map for it, what would people think of these two concepts:
1. Undiscovered continent/island. All the starting locations are situated along the sea border of a landmass, with the interior being virgin territory. VPs would be sites of natural power that could further the Pretenders' quests for godhood. Obviously it's a little odd that the capital sites are present, but perhaps they represent supplies and troops arriving from 'home'.
2. Inverted circle. Think of an inversion of the World of Geometry. The starting locations are clustered in valleys surrounding a central peak. They may have a few independant provinces that are equally sheltered, but then open up to contact from neighbouring regions. Obviously this would be quite fiddly with a large number of nations, but I think something could be worked out. Here, basically, there's plenty of territory further away from the center, but your nation becomes increasingly decentralised and difficult to defend, while your neighbours are always close by and competing for space.


Thoughts? Am I going too far for a first sally, or is it worth putting the effort in early? Are there maps that would probably do fine with the addition of VP locations? Am I an idiot?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

I think failing Dawn of Dominions, Orania might be just about perfect for this many players, might save a lot of trouble.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Mmh... I'm for VPs too but cumulative VPs seem a little too hard to rationalize for RPs...

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Purification of the divine soul? Each month basking in the splendour of a celestial nexus annihilates the terrestrial fetters of your divine soul.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Nice, KO. I was more thinking on the line of: "Twelve of the sixteen vectors, from which the energies which sustain the world flow, are finally under the control of the hordes of Yomi. Twelve Demon Priests in those distant parts of the world intone a cacophonic litany of the Netherworld while the Hannyas shake their serpentine tails in spasmodic anticipation. The unholy song corrupts the vectors, weakening the very fabric of existance, and suddenly pillars of pale green light spire from them and pierce the sky. The welkin becomes gretna and shafts of evil light illumine the Pretender of the demon nation. The mighty and cruel Deva, which the Onis have followed and worshiped up to the present, hoists her enormous Apotropaic weapons and sacrifices an unimposed Dai Oni. Bathing in his blood, she becomes one with the demonic powers and the energy of the vectors and ascends to the longly hankered godhood."



But everything works for me, really :)

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't cumulative VPs get awarded once a year in midsummer. I was thinking 'Mystical Juncture' sort of thing, where each summer rituals can be undertaken, but it takes a lot of rituallin' before the Pretender is strong enough to ascend.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

I think so it is in midsummer.

Which IMHO would be quite unthematic for Niefelheim i.e.... "Faster! We much rush to that particular little province in control of our mortal enemy instead of his capital, because we need to be there in 2 months so our god will receive the necessary blessing of the holy August holidays..." mmmh :rolleyes:

What I mean is, as KO as expert of religions knows better than me :), in almost every culture the periods around the solstices and equinoxes are somehow sacred and important; but Dom3's nations' cultures are too diversified to put the "important holy period of the year" (to gather VPs - the "summer rituals" you suggested ;) ) in the same season for everyone, seems hard to rationalize, as for Niefel or LA Ermor it would imho logically be winter and spring for Pangaea and so on, a thing that one wouldn't care in a normal game but might become weird in this one were we're expecting everybody to write the thoughts of maybe twenty different nations... :cool: And also I think it is impossible to make it diversified for nations so I would suggest something simpler like the necessity of the contemporaneous control of such and such an amount of "holy stones" or whatever.

(Stream of consciousness anyone? :D)

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Its a game option...
--totalvp X Vic. points available in the world 0-25
--capitalvp One extra victory per capital
--requiredvp X Vic. points required for victory (default total/2)
--summervp Vic. points are accumulated each summer

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

So that's a yes. The only sort of cumulative VP is once every summer, not monthly.

The point being, it doesn't actually matter what a religion thinks if there's 'real metaphysics' (mmm, oxymoronic!) involved. Nifelheim might consider winter months holy, but that's not going to change the fact that the nature of reality requires rituals on the summer solstice, at a place of metaphysical significance. It's not "Faster! We much rush to that particular little province so our god will receive the necessary blessing of the holy August holidays..."
It's "Faster! the conflux of ley lines is coming! Lay waste to the puny humans that would seek to control the power of the heavens!" If your god says 'go here, do this, or I shall be quite put out' you jolly well go and do it, even if summer does seem a funny time to do something for your god. The problem is, the religion's beliefs need not have any bearing on the matter of when and where junctures of mystical power occur.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Well, the mystical power is supposed to be understood and somewhat controlled by religion. :smirk: That's why the power of the cold god of the Niefel should IMHO more consistently get the control of the ley lines in the cold season and not in the hot one... ;)

That's just semanthics anyway, really. I'm ok with everything you choose Lokean :)

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Well the point of capturing the ley lines (or whatever they represent) isn't just to gain their power; its to stop all the puny insects that dare challenge your divine majesty from gaining their power too, even if its a nasty summery power you don't want, you sure as hell don't want the pathetic little midgets to get it and heat up your nice cold tundra now do you?

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

What's wrong with normal VPs in capitals?

I played on cumulative VPs twice and they are really not a good idea in the way they work [adding that VP every summer]. If you could set that you get an VP after controling it for X months it could work. But with current mechanics I think standard VP victory would work best [we can discuss about adding additional VPs on the map and reequired % of VPs to win, probably smth between 40-60%].

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Sure Shikome, I was just saying why I was in favour of normal VPs instead of cumulative ones - you stop the enemy gaining power from them in both ways :D

Zeldor I think the point against VPs in capitals is to avoid a rush game where everybody tries to destroy other nations soon to get their victory point; it would just impoverish the number of players and thus the reports soon.
With dislocated ones, who gets them will probably fortify their position there in those remote places, and we will likely have nice battles around the spots, diplomacy and waves of armies back and forth to lose and conquer them. :) Or at least it's what I'm looking forward to. (But again I'll adapt to any choice ;) )

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

I'm for normal VPs.

A game like this is special enough, we really don't need a second special effect like cumulativ VPs.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

As for VPs, they seem fine either way for me. And Niefelheim can consider that summer solstice is important as it is the time of the greatest strength of sun's heat which should be combated so that it won't gain absolute domination (reverse of actual beliefs of many cultures)...
As for maps, I'm for continent exploration, though reverse World of Geometry could be fun, too - at least for novelty. (Another thing - please, no toroid maps!)
Also, I don't think it's possible to hide VP provinces from players. Gandalf can say with certainty, I think... ;)

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Yay for continent exploration.

Mmh this game really deserves a special map. :cool:

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Tifone basically has the point.

Considering this remains a first experiment, I think I'll be happy with us just using the standard Orania VP map with normal victory points (no capitals). I realise it's a toroidal map, and I've got to admit to thinking they're horrible to play on, but it'll certainly do for a first try. There's very little in the way of impassable terrain, so most nations will end up with long borders surrounded by enemies, with little strategic variety, but as I say, first experiment...

I'd suggest that the magical sites be set between 50 and 60, abundant, but not prolific. I prefer to allow score graphs, since I like to think that most nations would have *fairly* good intelligence on their major obstacles to ascension, and obviously I don't think people should treat diplomatic agreements as anything other than what they are; the mutually convenient illusion of security. If you want to be a trustworthy and honourable god, go ahead, but, well, don't expect Abysia or Pangaea to do the same...

Mod nations would be fine. I like the idea of allowing people their favourite nation where possible, so I'm happy to use the Single Age mod (though if people are strongly against allowing the 'broken nations' I'll consider banning those specifically). Variety is clearly a good thing for RP or interesting narratives, so CBM will be used. Anything else people would like to discuss? If not, I'll get things rolling.

For my convenience, could people list their top 3 favourite nations and I'll assign them as best I am able.

EDIT: Regardless, I like this idea and would rather see it evolving into something made of fascinating and win than just being a one-off. As such, I'll probably load up the GIMP after all and start working on a few maps with an eye to narratability (is that even approximately a word?!). Although, I refuse to paint all my lush grassland beige and yellow! We'll see how this one turns out and I can work through the feedback and make it better for next time! (in about six months, when this one is finished...)

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

I'm totally in favour of this map :) - even if the lack of chokepoints sounds a bit of a pity :o

The setup is great but... are you reeeaally sure about the Single Age?... This seems VERY hard to rationalize eventually and a bit unbalancing... :smirk:

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Settings sound good... I'm a bit skeptical of the all ages mod working well from an RP perspective though.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Lokean:

So what nations will be banned? And probably with single-age only 1 instance of a nation allowed? [so we don't get EA + MA Abysia]

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Look at it this way, the only reason you know that the various incarnations of a nation belong to each age is because they often talk about their past and various nation-altering events. There's nothing preventing these things being spatially distributed rather than chronologically.

Why should EA, MA and LA Pangaea, for example, not just be three splinter sects of a progenitor nation that have each pursued a different path? And that's only assuming that players pick versions of the same nation from different eras.

Rationalising aside, why unbalancing, Tifone?

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Lokean:

I still think it would be better for that type of the game to allow just 1 instance of every multi-age nation. It should create more interesting game.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Is it less interesting to have two factions of a splintered nation following different gods, probably even more concerned with the destruction of their heretical brethren than their own nation's rise?

I am, after all, still not used to MP gaming, so perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see, from a narrative perspective, any problem with people adopting different eras of a nation and agreeing between them that [fluff!] is the reason for them both exisitng as separate nations. I mean, if the point is to have an RP/writeup kind of game the least players should be willing to do is work out how the two nations might relate to one another.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

It's obviously a subjective subject, but personally I would find something like LA Ermor and EA Ermor in the same game extremely unthematic. Yes, it's pretty much only from the game text that you know what order things are supposed to happen in, but if you are throwing that out the window there is not a lot to RP from.

I think what Tifone may be getting it is EA nations tend to on average dominate a bit. Extra gems, and in general tougher units and higher levels of magic.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Well IMHO the thing that "they often talk about their past and various nation-altering events" is very important in this game... we'll probably be heavy on thematicness so one which would i.e. write nostalgic the fall of the glorious Ermorian Legions into the undeads he is leading and then facing those in battle... well... :D


Hey quantum, that's telepathy, I was preparing the image before you told that :shock:

PS: even the Agarthans are heavy on theme, and the water nations...

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Again, I question the problem with spatially distributing them. Say the glorious Ermorian legions, sent into the Utter West on a mission for the New Faith, seeking the means to bring about the immediate reawakening of the New God. There they open the tomb of an old god, thought by the Pontifices to be long reduced to a divine spark, devoid of will, and his malevolent spirit consumes them utterly, tearing the veil between Life and Death. Now, with the very land beneath their feet corrupting as they march, the vast and growing legions of undeath march on the tomb of the New God, far to the east.

Now, obviously, that could be done better, and would vary considerably based on how the players wish to approach it, but I don't see that it's *that* farfetched, Nor does it really change the theme for either nation. In fact, about the only change is the capital of Ashen Empire being some mouldering tomb complex rather than a mouldering shell of Eldregate.

EDIT: I don't have a problem restricting nations to only one incarnation each, since it's really just to increase the chance of somebody getting their favorite version of a nation, but I'm just trying to illustrate that I don't see a loss of thematic quality going hand-in-hand with multiple eras of the same nation being in the game.

Agartha, I'll admit, is a little harder, but if you multiply them into a once world-spanning civilization that has collapsed into a few pocket-cultures in deep cave complexes I think you can still make it work quite readily. One culture never encountered humans, one was slowly replaced by them and the last was worshipped and fell into decadence, eventually becoming a nation of hallowed mummies.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Lol Lokean, you're now creating your own Dom3 mithology bro ;) Not that it's bad your creativity is nice and I understand where you want to get, I'm just fearing it will create some real confusion... and possibly reduce the RPs material, for eventually having to reduce thematic historical sequences not to clash with the presence of a later or previous incarnation of the same nation in game.

And about Agartha...

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

You say that almost like it's a bad thing...

I dunno, maybe I'm too used to doing this sort of thing, but I don't really understand where you're coming from. Clearly you're going to put your own spin on the nation as you write, since there's only a flavor to each nation, not an entire culture and history. I consider it just as likely that the human in your picture would be saying "Die, foul corruption!", after all, this *thing* can't be a real Agathan Oracle, it's just some disgusting degenerate, mocking the form of the glorious Oracles of the past.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Well, since I don't have many strong feelings on the whole "single age" debate, I'll just stake claims to MA Marignon,EA Atlantis and Gath before its too late.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

It's certainly possible to RP rationalize almost anything... but what different people find plausible varies widely. Personally I would feel a bit adrift without the basic back stories of the nations to build on, and to be honest a little annoyed to see direct contradictions. As I said before this is of course a totally subjective opinion, but I guess I fail to see a really strong reason for not playing in one age.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

It boils down to maximising the chances of players getting their favouritest of favorite nations. I'm happy to restrict it to one era of each nation, then the backstory of each individual nation pretty much stays intact. Would that do you? If not, I'd have to straw-poll the preferred era.

EDIT: Go post preferences in the other thread, here

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Only one era of a nation is better, though I would still vastly prefer just a single era.

I would submit that the current preferences thread is biased however. ;) No doubt in the current format there will be a large spread of first nation picks across the eras which is an argument for the one nation mod. But I doubt in actuality there are that many people so fixated on a particular nation they would mind choosing another (or the same one in a different era).

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Hence asking whether they favor the single age mod and which era they would prefer, were it not to be used.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Well, my only point was it might get different results if people voted on whether to use combined mod _before_ they started picking nations. It's no big deal though, just arguing for the sake of arguing really. ;) Sorry if I seem overly picky- I think it's great someone is finally getting an RP game started for dom3, and I'd surely play almost regardless of settings.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Wait, WHAT?!

*goes and changes the signup thread to reflect the fact that everone else is going to be playing modded versions of the carebears and he's playing LA R'lyeh*

As I say, even if I don't get to play in them forever, I'd like to see this game being the first of a generation of RP/narrative games, so ironing things out early is a good thing. Once this one gets underway I'm hoping for plenty of feedback as well as prose. Custom maps with a setup premise in broad strokes (like the unexplored landmass, for example) are certainly within my capacity and would serve to improve the feasibility of the games considerably, I would say.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

Read the whole long thread. It's really an interesting game setting for me. In most MPs I played so far, players have little interaction with each other and I often get to know a distant nation when it is shown on the message board with "The God of XXX is banished" or something like that. What happens to these people also buries with them.

The RP style also adds to the flavor of the game. Though I'm not a native English speaker, I'll try my best if you guys allow me:)

I'll post my preference on sign up page.

Re: Chronicles - Inspired by Baalz, engineered by Lokean - Pre-game discussion
 

For those joining me from the signup thread, hello.

Clearly, there's been a fair amount of opposition to the use of the Single Age Mod, and for the life of me I don't understand why. If we assume that there's only one of an incarnation of a nation I simply don't see how somebody else playing a nation from a different Age affects your nation or how you choose to engage with it through the game or through RP and narration. I understand that it must do, or there wouldn't be any opposition, but I just don't know how.