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Re: Someone cast Wolven Winter on New Orleans!
Amen to that.
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Re: Someone cast Wolven Winter on New Orleans!
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Here is a picture from snowy New Orleans. As I was driving past a local high school I saw a lot of boys pelting each other with snow balls. A light bulb went off. Later that day, my ad aired on TV:
"Were you or a loved one injured or distressed by flying snow? If so, you may be entitled to a large cash award. Someone must pay. Throwing a snowball, under the law, is no different than throwing a rock. Would you let someone hit you with a rock or other object without suing for redress? And it makes no difference if the perpetrator is a minor under the age of 18. In that case, you can sue their parents as they are responsible for the actions of their children. Do not delay! Call right away! The law offices of......" just joking. |
Re: Someone cast Wolven Winter on New Orleans!
Is that equipment even designed to operate below freezing? >.>
And I've been calling for more aggressive lawsuits against parents who let their children (or teach them to!) throw snowballs, for years now. We really can make a difference, if we work together. |
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That's more snow than we have right now! :D
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Good job missing the point guys.
I guess you think it would be better if the planet were getting colder right? Pandas and Polar bears? Who cares, either they adapt or they die, that's the way of the world, that's the way it's always been. Or do you cry for the woolly mammoth? Or the other mega fauna? It's not possible to pick a temperature and keep the system there right? Thus the temperature is always going to be moving somewhere, and up is generally accepted to be better than down. At least in the context of crop yield and animal population health. Sure you can pull some specific examples which fare worse, but so what? That's not what I said, and I made it abundantly clear that hot isn't better for EVERYTHING, it's just better for almost everything. Still all of that is beside the point that less pollution is better than more pollution, only I don't think we needed to have people with ulterior agendas try to scare everyone into believing that the end times are upon us. So if you want to accept Al Gores lies for reasons for initiating sometimes radical proposals to end CO2 emission I will have to assume that you also accepted Bushes lies for reasons to invade Iraq. |
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Good job destroying the light tone Xietor tried to inject back into this thread.
You're missing the point...which is that you can be SUED for throwing SNOWBALLS! |
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But what is the amount of human caused global warming? Compared to volcanoes, farting cows etc?
What about theories that there were no glaciers in Alps when Hannibal was marching on Rome? But even if we assume that global warming is caused by humans, all that is done in the world to prevent it is mostly pure propaganda and abusing people and cheating them. Cars make about 15% of CO2 emissions. The real problems are bad power plant and we should switch to nuclear energy [which ecologists don't like], wind turbines make electricity 4x more expensive than nuclear one. And making a turbine is not ecological process at all. Also there are worse gases than CO2. We'd all have to resign from eating meat. But I guess even ecologists like steak :) |
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Must aviod talking about global warming...
The thing about the snowballs? What scares me the most is that I am neither suprised nor disgusted. |
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The bottom line is that, regardless of the details, the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is much, much higher than it was (a factor of 5 perhaps? something like that). And CO2 definitely has a considerable effect on the way radiation passes through the Earth's atmosphere.
That can't fail to cause changes of one kind or another to the climate. Mostly, change is bad, because locally both human society and flora and fauna have adapted to the status quo. Natural mechanisms (migration in particular, and also adaptation) can cope with slow changes, but not with fast ones. Imagine if all the local climates switch around, so that areas which were fertile become desert or swamps, and vice versa. Even if overall "warmer is better" (which I think is not true, but hey), it'd take us a very long time to adapt to that. Our cities and populations are all in the wrong place, not to mention the damage to nature. In the meantime there'll be a lot of suffering. |
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Mostly change is inevitable.
Thinking that we can somehow regulate the climate to our liking is asinine at this point in our technological adventures. It's as though everyone forgets about the natural disasters which certainly happened long before humans were belching out CO2 or any other gas. Our mere presence cannot but change the environment, and while it's a nice thought to want to minimize the impact, thinking in terms of Gaia is somewhat pointless when trying to devise methods for approaching the issue. I strongly believe that we are better of expanding our use of renewable energies, recycling, reducing consumption, ... all of it. But I am not convinced that we are in a death spiral, or even anywhere close to it. I'm not alone here, and if you want to poo poo the 700 scientists who break with the political orthodoxy of the IPCC so be it. Just realize that the models are just that, models, and are failing to live up to their hype from the early part of this decade. |
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the people who know they're right have mostly stopped arguing a page ago and started talking about snowballs.
the people who have to fabricate truth through talk are still trying to do that. but yeah. if animals can't adapt to human destruction of the environment, then they deserve to die. amirite? same thing for africans in poverty. what? can't stand a little slavery? c'mon, it's just the west raping your environment, economy, and culture. you can't hang, you guys deserve to die. get with the program. |
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Hey, children have always died of smallpox, do you apply that reasoning to them too? Do you protest against the scientists which make scientifical research about vaccines, AIDS etc because you don't want to "swallow their alarmist agendas"? - So... About snowballs!! Hey, I'm a law student, I'm sure we can put up some good c... hey, what you say? In New Orleans is the "USA common law system" in force? Oh damn, feel almost useless. :D |
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Ahh the strawman... how quaint.
Life is what it is, do you think that species wouldn't go extinct if man never walked the earth? |
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A great reason for you not to care about the ones we kill without giving them time or chance to adapt or evolve or whatever, I suppose.
(More strawman fun? "Even the murdered ppl would have died anyway even if their murderer never walked the earth.") PS: Sorry, I'm starting to sound like a b*stard, it's just my terrible english which reduces my choice of "neutral" words) PPS: Hey, now that I think about it, yesterday night I dreamed it was snowing in Florence!!! Didn't happen though. Foreigner premonition? :) |
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Unfortunately, this strawman didn't need to be invoked; he started talking all by himself.
Your logic sounds to me like this, licker: "Laws against murder don't prevent all murders, therefore we shouldn't have laws against murder." Dang it. Snaked by Tifone. |
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"In New Orleans is the "USA common law system" in force? Oh damn, feel almost useless. :D"
Actually the 49 states, except Louisiana have the common law that is derived from England. Louisiana's system of law is derived from the French, whose law was derived from the Romans. It is called the civil law. As we are fond of saying here in Louisiana, the Romans had an advanced system of law when the barbarians in Britain were still throwing sticks and stones at each other. Obviously one system is superior to the other.:) |
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actually. Licker was trying to cast "Polymorph argument into strawman"
unfortunately for him, the argument was a well equipped and high powered logic SC, and easily resisted his feeble spell. |
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I'd just like to mention that Edi's post on page 5 was the most impressive thing I've seen today.
Edi is Finnish, ergo, not a native English speaker. He just argued using scientific English. I can understand it, but using it? Way above my level of comfort. Salute! :wave: |
Re: Someone cast Wolven Winter on New Orleans!
Here's a useful guide for everyone to read up on and study the Flamewarrior classes so that they can better identify everyone and study up their foe's common tactics.
Illustrated Guide to Flamewarriors also, heres a short entry on Uncy with a nice flowchart to help you follow the flamewar resolution process. Flamewar Dispute Resolution Flowchart |
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What LAWS are we talking about? We're talking about climate change and species adapting to said changes. The point is that the climate has changed time and time again with zero input from mankind and that species have lived and died with zero input from mankind. To be sure, I am not for more pollution, but to think that we can somehow control the climate is pure nonsense. Should we actively try to destroy species? Certainly not. Should we actively try to save species? Probably so. Should we use flawed methodologies and pure speculation to justify our reactions? ... Flamewar... *chuckle* You think this is a flamewar? But yes using smallpox as a foil to GW is quite the strawman, and rather irrelevant. Or were you saying that we shouldn't have wiped out smallpox? OMG GENOCIDE!!! See I can do it too ;) |
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So, I accept that there are quite a few scientists who don't believe that we can in any way alleviate global warming by cutting CO2 emissions, either because they believe it's not happening, because they think it's not our fault, or perhaps because they think it's a lost cause, I don't know. However, the considerable majority of scientists take the opposite point of view. What I don't understand is what you, licker, or others in your position, believe motivates these scientists? Of course now it is a fairly standard belief, but originally it was a real maverick thing to believe in. So it's not just herd mentality or something like that. The only reason I can think you might have is that it's a conspiracy - but if you believe academia works in such a way that a majority of scientists can be coopted into a conspiracy then you are way off. And besides I can't imagine what the point behind such a conspiracy might be, being as taking action against global warming is bad for everyone's economies. So I assume you don't think that. Why, then, do you think this mad majority of scientists believe in these "flawed methodologies" and this "pure speculation"? I'm genuinely interested to know. |
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(Some links already provided above) Quote:
Reducing the pollution of gases which create the Greenhouse effect and the Ozone Depletion can reduce the man-induced increasing of temperatures. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_effect No-"pure nonsense" and no sorcery. Just bare physics, really. Quote:
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Re: Someone cast Wolven Winter on New Orleans!
Perhaps I haven't been following this thread with the attention required to nail down every detail, but I have no idea what you're talking about at this point, licker.
The 'laws' I refer to in the analogy with murder are regulations undertaken to reduce harmful emissions. The strawman I'm talking about rises up in your latest post. It's the assumption you think your opponents hold, namely that we can somehow control the climate from the top-down. Thus you argue, impertinently: "We can't completely control it, therefore we shouldn't try." Nobody's saying that we can control the climate. But we can control *our* behavior in order to put less stress on it. The fact that you seem to be in favor of at least some regulations like this make me unsure what you're after now, except for annoyance with Al Gore. |
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I've read so much English down the years that I speak it at a native level unless we're talking about some very specific fields like medicine, advanced math, cooking and similar areas that I have not been exposed to that much. I didn't even consider my post to be anything special, as about the only complex term it contains is 'albedo' (i.e. reflective capability). |
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I read these statements pretty clearly as people saying they want us to make the temperature go down. Not just stop going up. The contention is that our inputs to the climate may or may not have near the impact on this temperature change some people think it does. We are likely currently (and for the last 2 years now if not longer) in a cool down. What have we changed to contribute to this cool down? Nothing to do with CO2 obviously. I am in favor of reducing the US demand on foreign sources of energy, I am in favor of reducing pollution generally (though CO2 is not technically a pollutant, it often accompanies other pollutants), and I am in favor of more personal responsibility for ones energy and material use. None of that has anything to do with GW though as far as I am concerned, and the costs of preventing GW are greater than the costs of adapting or mitigating. http://www.nationalpost.com/most_pop...html?id=164002 |
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...CO2 is just the principal greenhouse gas in the earth atmosphere...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/12/22/224450/84 And as already tried to explain (but with little success I think) greenhouse effect *does* cool down the temperatures when year after year cold fresh air melting on the poles go to interfere and slow down important currents like the the north atlantic one (for diminished salinity of the ocean and counter-currents). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Stream PS. Also, some temporary cool down is scientifically irrelevant and not contrary to the theory: - http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/11/9/182921/777 PPS Oh about your last link. Nice finding of external source on the Wiki. But let's have fun and read the sentence that leads to it: While individual scientists have voiced disagreement with these findings, (and here is your link!) the overwhelming majority of scientists working on climate change agree with the IPCC's main conclusions.(two links here showing the majority, and many others here: http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/11/11/23656/027 and here http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/11/13/221250/49) |
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My favorite: http://www.flamewarriors.com/warriorshtm/palooka.htm I just can't stop laughing at that picture. And I can't help but think of a few Palookas around here... :D |
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Further the slow down to the gulf stream is not a global effect, and would have little to no effect on the SH where some of the largest cooldowns have been reported. However, I assume you will counter with antarctic melt. However, if we look at heat as energy rather than temperature (since that is infact the correct way to look at it) if the atmosphere has been trapping more energy we should be able to find that energy somewhere, and lately, we cannot account for it melt or ocean temp increases (remember this is a global phenomena right?) or air temp increases, since the latter is clearly falling. So we are probably left to agree with the scientist who are showing that the sun is by far the most important player in our climate (not that most people deny this, but some tend to downplay it), and there's really not a hell of a lot we can do to control the sun. Quote:
Further the commonly used IPCC report is now 4 years out of date, and the science reviewed in it even further out of date. |
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Ahah, Edi's totally a: - http://www.flamewarriors.com/warrior...ngfumaster.htm :D
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http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/ http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/info/warming/ Quote:
The real science is only done by the few who uncovered THE CUNSPIRACYY! :cool: |
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I tend to agree carbon emissions ahve increased temperatures. However, I by no means accept it as fact. Kind of doesn't matter, does it? We have to go on the best guess we have. Lots of scientists think CO2 emissions are responsible for global warming, then perhaps it behooves us to adopt nuclear energy. |
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Clearly wrong about what?
That we cannot account for the loss of energy in the ice melt and decreasing temps? I think you may have misunderstood me. I am not saying that the ice isn't melting, indeed, that is one place for the energy to go. |
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@ chris - Or even better, energies which don't produce nuclear wastes! :)
@ licker - Clearly wrong about temperatures falling. Second link provided expecially => air temperatures PS @ chris: could you please provide some link to the "more than 11,000" academic scientists which are skeptics about GW. Possibly something which shows their peer-rewied works on the matter. (Even better, if not payed for this by the Bush administration lol :D) |
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Air temperatures from March...
Global temp fell almost .5C in 2007. http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/02/1...ast-12-months/ Where did all the energy go? Answer is it didn't come in the first place. |
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Yeah, a graph about 12 months makes a whole lot of a difference. You are just rushing the science for your purpose.
Like JimMorrison said, and I said, not only one year can be cooler than another (chaotic nature of weather), but this is totally irrelevant in a trend showing on a long period of time. Single years taken by themselves can not establish or refute a trend. http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/10/31/214357/31 http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/10/26/184932/56 Going to bed now. See ya tomorrow. :) Don't have too much fun with snowballs without me!! :( |
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<Trying and failing to stay out of this>
And how many of those "academic scientists" are actually climate specialists working in the field and not a geologist or something. Just being a generic scientist gives you no more credibility than any random fool posting on a blog. |
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(thejeff a quotation would have helped... :) I've used the expression both referring to "GW-believers" -post 81- and "GW-unbelievers" -post 84- scientists. /about the former ones, you can eventually check the links/
Lol, believers and unbelievers. Sounds like a religious thread for real :D) PS Oh about the water vapour argument licker called: http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/12/22/222357/40 About the sun and cosmic rays, something interesting here: http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/12/28/090/30666 |
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So show me the trend since 1998 please. The point about '07 is that so much heat was lost that it essentially 'undid' all the warming from the past 10 years. I don't know what this gristmill site is anyway, or why articles from 2006 are relevant, but I'll try to look at them when I have more time. |
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I just find comfortable to link the gristmill site since it is are full of useful reliable scientific souces and charts.
The trend since 1998 is showed in SEVERAL of the links I already provided, you would do me a favour to read before posting, it's tiring and cumbersome to me to talk about the same thing again and again, and ultimately pointless if you don't read the answers I provide. Here it is again, with your theory nicely debunked: http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/11/4/175028/329 And again about your old "warmer is better" theory: http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/1/9/131657/6469 |
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Energy balance is indeed the correct way to look at it. The claim that the increase in temperature and overall energy is nowhere to be seen is incorrect. The average temperature of oceans has been rising. Coral die-offs are the primary evidence for this but not the only things. The northern ice caps melting is more. That we are seeing such apparently small increases in the ocean temperatures may seem no cause for concern, but this is a deceptive and dangerous notion. The mass of the planet's oceans is several hundred orders of magnitude more than the mass of the atmosphere. The atmosphere has been warming up by a few degrees. The first ten feet of water in the oceans weighs the same as the atmosphere. There are roughly 300 times 10 feet in one kilometer, and most oceans are several kilometers deep. The fact that we are seeing measurable increase in their temperature should be a pretty damned scary statistic. There's a lot of mass, so it can absorb a lot of energy, but it also means that restoring the energy balance to the previous norms will also be slower and far more difficult. I'd love to continue this further, but I have to go get some sleep. Night... |
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Your link says nothing about warmer weather being 'worse', only that rapid change is potentially bad. Hardly the case you are representing.
Further your data is incomplete, it ignores 2007 and 2008. You are indeed repeating the same thing quite a bit, but it's not providing the answers you seem to think it is, which is why I continue to pose the questions. " Grist: it's gloom and doom with a sense of humor. So laugh now -- or the planet gets it." Err... so this is actually a rather biased site, and you are quoting to us from blogs. Now there's nothing de facto wrong with that, but it should be put in the open. |
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-edi
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=88520025 Your comments please? It is as I have claimed. The 'heat' is missing from the equation. Well unless you accept the fact that its really all the suns fault and stop persisting with the notion that the unproven correlation of temperature to CO2 is meaningful. Unless it's to note that CO2 concentrations LAG temperature as has also been shown in the literature. By the way... warmer ocean also means greater CO2 sink... The planet is really quite remarkable at the ways it can seemingly balance itself (not that I'm a Gaiaian) |
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licker, I guess maybe you missed my last post in the flurry that followed it, but I'd really be honestly interested to hear - what, in your opinion, is the reason that so many scientists (certainly the enormous majority, but if that's in dispute let's just say really a lot) are concerned about global warming and think that taking action would be helpful. I'm just interested to know if you think they're all dumb, or they're part of a conspiracy, or they're over-excitable, or what.
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Anyone remember Lord_Bob and his monkey PD? I think he was a Ferrous Cranus.
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It's pretty clear that the scientists are working within the paradigm of global warming. The robots provide data that tests the paradigm and allows it to be further refined. nothing the robots said conclusively leaned one way or the other, in fact, in the light of other data, their reports seem very confusing. This either means they are faulty, the methodology of their deployment and recording is incomplete, or the theory of global warming needs to be further nuanced and additional variables accounted for. While the theory is available to be nuanced, the rote "warming of the sun" is an irrelevant variable because it presumably effects all other variables, assuming its even true. Further, it smacks of a deus ex machina that just solves all problems, and forecloses the need for any further science (which is basically your tactic here). But let's take it seriously for a moment. Here the oceans are rising, the air is getting warmer, but for some reason the oceans are cooling slightly. Yet you would eagerly jump on a theory that says "the sun is getting warmer" and then switch to a "the oceans are getting cooler" without realizing the salient inconsistency between the two. It is so entirely clear you only select data that supports your viewpoint, even when the bricolage of data you select contradicts itself. internal consistency of your data means nothing to you, only that each individual piece when taken alone seems to contradict GW. You've already decided a priori what you want to see, and you only look for data that supports it. Of course, this data inevitably contradicts itself. Basically what you suggest is... Quote:
so no scientists, don't continue investigating the mystery the robots posed, or trying to solve the problems they raised. just stop looking through your telescopes and trying to understand the world around you. we already have a theory that best supports those with power and money. anything else is just wrong. wag the dog. Licker seems to lack the reflexivity to understand the game he is a pawn of. |
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And was there really some sort of snowball lawsuit in the news or something? I'm slightly news (and lawsuit) deprived over here. |
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The pedigree's of the people opposing global warming is significant. The director of NOAA atmospherics studies, Dr Gray of Colorado State, if I recall. There have been several documentaries on both sides of the issue. One of these documentaries amassed a contrarian point of view to show that scientific opinion was hardly monolithic. To say that it is categorical fact that CO2 emissions cause global warming, is frankly, ridiculous. To my knowledge, the theory hasn't even been tested; nor is it readily apparent how to test it. But it doesn't matter, at least to me. Gravity is a theory. It fights the observable facts better than any other theory. The theory of global warming gives suggests avenues to attack. Should these avenues not work, then the theory of warming caused by man made actions (notably co2 emissions) will be revisited. Or, if global temperatures start to fall. However, people that propose CO2 warming like a religion scare me. We have thousands of years of history. I would bet that our present climate is WELL within statistical variance. Hell, our planet has both been a hell hole - and ice covered - several times, in the not too distant (geologically speaking past). But wouldn't be willing to take no action against global warming either. |
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Can we shut up about 2007 and 2008 or "blah de blah, I want to look for an incrdibly short period of time, and say, THERE, it wasn't as warm right there!" .....
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So, by studying the crust of the Earth, we can estimate global weather conditions going back at least 1000 years. I would tend to think this is more evidence of a trend than 1, or 2, or even 10 years in any specific point. And just to clarify, if the Earth's temperature rises very much at all, very quickly, we also know through fossil evidence that this can cause -mass extinctions-. That is to say, entire food webs can collapse, and this can very profoundly effect the prosperity of the human race. You don't have to give a damn about those other species - beyond the fact that your very existence, in some way is reliant on the great majority of them, and the content of their life-cycle. |
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Where's your data for the last 3 hours? It dropped a couple of degrees here at my house in tha time alone. that's HUGE relative to the magnitude of change those quack scientists blaber on about. GLOBAL WARMING IS A SHAM!!! |
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