Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

WITH CBM:

Machacka is the kind of nation that will take your provinces and stand on your forts, even if it doesn't care to take them quickly in the early game. Especially if they take scales. Machaka can get so big so fast in the early game, it should seriously consider taking scales and pilfering a couple other players early, very early, in the game, especially if they have gems that pretender can use.

I've played them twice in 2player to victory using scales. They are seriously too dangerous early game, and having them next to you would suck worse than any cyclops.

That is too many spiders!

I could almost call them overpowered, but if you just take a more sparley populated map, make research faster, or hold out to the end game, they aren't all that bad. Their combat mages are excellent, but they just don't deploy like a warlock or an arch theurg, for instance. With these you can even save a turn by having them come back after casting four spells.

People come and talk about Machaka, I would blah blah blah... Maybe you would, but you shouldn't underestimate how bad it is to get rushed by spiders.

Just try it. Take scales and some sleeping astral rainbow. Up want money more than protection, but you want both, and 7 holy doesn't hurt, but the sacred spiders are cap only, so don't be -wasteful-.

You want 10+ spiders per group. Take a province the second round with the initial force plus whatever spider riders you could make. Look, you're going to lose some spiders, I'm not going to lie to you, if you aren't careful, you might even lose an army, BUT AT THESE PRICES (YOU'LL SEE I PROMISE)!!

Hire a commander there if possible. Keep filling your queue with spiders, you want 10+, but you want as many as possible of them to be the hunter spiders and spider knights... they really are better, you should get them when possible. Eventually you should be able to get multiple indy kill forces a day... by like day 4 or so... really. You need to have indy commanders pouring in to take them out, and you by turn 5 or 6 you should be able to hire a mage (just get the expensive ones). Repeat. Your research will be super fast, because you only hire expensive mages, this will pay off later too, when you need to have them kill stuff.

Make sure you do some site searching (it's easy to get carried away with the conquest!), because eventually someone will have some evo and you'll start to take losses. You should be truly huge at that time. Keep pumping out spiders, or change to hopelites, or get a mix.

You find some gems sites by searching a few turns, and then go home and research site searching spells to use the gems with. Also, priests find pearls so have a priest or two search.

Plan to start a fort the 4-5th turn a couple provinces away from you main. I know you won't -need- it, but build it anyway, it helps you get more priest and mages going and gives you a forward location.

This nation PKs.

I don't reccomend getting a blessing just for the spiders. Incidental is fine, I reccomend astral. Or maybe you want to be permi-scary to invade and want to try and afford a pheonix with high paths in one or both of his specialties.

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

I don't think anybody disputes the Machaka early game is super strong (except some undefined "experts" on IRC ;) ), that really isn't the issue. The issue is the end game.

While one, or as I think the *only*, solution is (what cleveland half-jokingly says above) to rush the map before it gets to the end game, that may be slightly difficult in a "true" MP game (ie not duels, but where there are several players along). Maybe that is the niche of Machaka, but it sort of does not feel entirely right...

Regarding poison golems, I think I've GoR'ed one in some game, and if I recall correctly they get just two misc slots? I admit freely I am not an expert with poison golems, as the few tests I've had with them saw them pass out from fatigue real fast (and even though their poison is a killer even after that, there really isn't that much you can do to prevent getting killed or at least racking up a massive amount of afflictions). Do I remember totally wrong?

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

Poison golems have full slots I think, plus a banefire shield. IIRC Baalz won the SC competition w/a poison golem equipped with boots of quickness and a lifedrain standard, which keeps its hps high. I'm not sure how it would fatigue out since I would think it has 0 enc?

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

You don't need to GoR poison golems, they are already commanders, and they come with full slots. One main vulnerability (that I've been on the receiving end of) is Shatter. Also they have really weak attack and defense stats, and they are undead, therefore vulnerable in melee to anything with a Holy Scourge etc (that can deal with the golem's banefire shield, which actually doesn't do all that much damage).

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

Ok, cool :) Poison golems sure look like an option then. Have to run a test game tonight to check them out :)

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

Even without GoH or the Chalice, neither of which can be guaranteed in any serious MP game, Tartarians are feasible. Enough come without Feeblemind to be useful. Machaka has good Death, though they will need to bootstrap up to Tartarian summoning level and they've got good enough Nature for GoR.
If they can get, from Indy mages, trading, or a pretender a Moonvine Bracelet, they could cast GoH, but keeping it up is trickier.
That, plus possible elemental (Fire/Earth) royalty, is an endgame.

Isn't everyone without national SCs in roughly the same situation? Except many have more trouble getting into Death and Nature in the first place.
With clams gone, Wish is much less common and usually relies on a pretender anyway. Racing for the Blood uniques is the other real choice.

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

The worst thing about the weak nations, Machaka included, is their reputation. Being considered weak they will almost always be targeted first. This is bad in normal games and compounded in RAND games where even diplo can't protect them.

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

I don't think Machaka is weak mid-game, but the player needs to plan for when they'll get a spell to be getting mages to the front lines to cast it. They don't tele or trapeze, so just plan ahead. These mages are tough and they have good combat paths. Or, you could probably just go with banefire archers, which will kill most stuff just like sending a mage for while. Buys a little time.

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

I wonder what are Machaka's MP statistics. Win/lose ratio for example...

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

That is very true. Nothing helps you win like fighting on your own terms.

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

And their PD is kinda crappy at early game income levels, so they can't make a good trap easily. Not that you couldn't just get some evo right quick and slaughter an army from behind spiders...

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

yeah, all the evoc sounds great in theory. in practice it's bad. Yes, your great mages make up for your crappy units (excluding spiders) when marching with the troops but then your research will take a hit making you seem all the more the inviting target. An ideal start game is made of roughly the same set of objectives:
-> research, most of your early game mage time goes here
-> lands, ideally you should get them with armies/pretender
-> castles

There are some exceptions to that rule but Machaka is not one of them and it has a rough time getting a good start mainly due to it's reputation.

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

I was talking about a trap. The kind where they enemy comes in, and you just hit em with the mages real quick. Blood rocks for this, because even at lvl 1, your mages can summon ungodly hoards of imps in very early turns. Of course, blood nations don't really get rushed, except by new players...

Anyway, I've done a trap before, if you can break their spear tip off, you can often take their stuff.

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

Machakan PD is ultra-crap, which means they are very vulnerable to raiders. Nations with flyers or stealthers can practically overrun Machaka in one turn if that is the opening move in a war. I remember a game with Pans where even 11 Harpies (a harpy commander with 10 harpies) took several provinces on first turn I attacked (plus the stealthers and Call of the Wilds I cast on same turn, in addition to the frontal attack who targeted the strong points (and in which I took a crapton of damage against spiders)). You know the PD is *bad* when even a few Harpies eat your defenders without a sweat.

Machaka does great when they are the one attacking. Everybody knows this. But after the first year, before the excellent evocations are available and their forces are still all spread out, they are very weak. This, I would presume, is when they get targeted. Nobody wants an offensive monster as their neighbour.

MA Pangaea, which has pretty similar magic as Machaka has and has no national summons, is *much* more stronger in end game. The Pans first of all have loads of more HP than the Machakan sorcerors (they laugh at things like Earthquake), and Pangaea has great cheap thugs (with some minor equipment) who can wield SC killing gear. And yet, the real killer IMO is Life for Life, a couple Pans casting that destroys basically anything (excpet large armies of course, but Pangaea has lots of options against armies); Life for Life has Range 100, precision 100, 40+ AN irrestible damage, and that says "SC killer" to me. Every single Pan can cast Life for Life (at least if they cast Hellpower first).

Machaka needs some similar niche for end game. Sadly I have not figured out what that niche is.

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

They can't even find achaisic record. With Pythium, I've used a pretender with completely different paths than the awesome locals, and he operated almost autonomously, summoning his group of mages and they in turned summoned stuff. But Machaka doesn't get pearls. You must be able to sort something out, but the spiders and hoplite don't cut it against demons and other summoned units and SCs. I don't know how to use a pretender in the endgame to save a nation if they can't get gems. If they can get gems they can summon summoners. Lead time lags a bit on getting offensive compared to other option, but ultimately you spend a lot of gems. I admittedly haven't used this in technique in MP or even 2 player.

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

Akashic record is rarely used in MP. It's too expensive and comes too late.

Lack of Astral is a problem, particularly since it's hard to bootstrap. There are no cheap low-level Astral mages to summon for site-searching & routine forging. If you take a rainbow pretender, send it out manually site searching and hope for either Astral indies (lizards!) or you'll probably need to wait for spectres or empower for other astral mages.
I probably would take an Astral Rainbow, if only for access to RoW/S.

By the time you're fighting mostly demons and other summons you'll have your own. Undead thugs and, in CBM, drakes. Spiders remain useful until the big MR-resist spells come to dominate the battlefield, but they're not your only tool.

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

OK, Ive poked around about Achashic record, and it seems that some playerscast it on swamps and wastes. The AI likes to cast it in deep ocean, I assume forts are fairly likely there.?. Also some don't reccomend it for LA. Also, some cast it on provinces with stuff like unrest and wierd scales.

But if you want a specific gem type you cast that spell. Also, get the arcan probing out of the way first.

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

Don't do anything based on what the AI does. AI nations cast Akashic? And how do you know?
I think the biggest problem with it, other than burning all those precious Astral gems, is that it usually doesn't come early enough. By the time I've reached Conj 5 & have enough Pearls to cast it more than once or twice, I've searched most provinces, especially the more likely provinces either manually or with the specific remote spells, so the return is lower. Also by that time, there are no indies left, and I assume that whoever I'm taking provinces from has been searching, at least their main national paths, so the return will be low on new provinces as well. (This may not be so true against the AI, which doesn't site search well.)

I'm sure there are some scale/unrest generating sites that would be worth finding, but most of the ones that leap to mind (Devil's Den!) require a mage of that path anyway, so I'd search with one of those first.

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

No, not the AI, some players say they cast Acashic record on swamps and wastes.

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

Now that one cant produce FFs out of the assembly line, whats the story for proud and noble Machaka?

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

They suck.

Capital only sacreds makes a bless strat fail. Sacrificing a mage turn in other capitals is also a waste of time.

You can try and field an army of Spider Warriors now, but again, capital only.

You need to capture decent provinces in order to access decent indies. Not something you can plan for.

You still have spiders, which despite a cheap second shape, require good scales to mass early in a game.

All the issues of pre CBM Machaka, but without the extra incentive to play them.

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

You seemed to have missed all the CBM buffs to them...

For example their sacreds are much cheaper now, new nation spells were added, and best of all, most of machaka's mages get a magicboost in battle. just to name a few things. machaka is possibly at the most powerful point its ever been

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

In order to capitalise on their mages, Machaka needs a decent army for expansion.

Mage turn spent expanding, means mage turns lost researching and site searching.

Poor PD means limited turtling capability and makes Machaka a rush target, preventing them from making the most of any research.

No hammer or fever fetishes takes away their ability to create cheap thugs, path and research boosters.

Killing off a witch doctor to create 4 spiders is not a boost.

Free scrying is nice, but I've never really used it.

Their free fear spell has not won me a single battle. It has not even helped.

And the remote assassination spell? In the 4 MP games I have played with CBM, I have never researched it. I've been too busy fending off stronger nations. Unlike other nations with weak armies and good mages, they simply lack attrition capability.

So tell me, how have I missed the point? How has the latest CBM added more to Machaka than it has taken away?

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

I think what you are saying, and please correct me if I'm wrong on this, is that Machaka will nevur win, because of teh PD.

Is that right?

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

Oh right. Rather than discuss the actual benefits of the mod changes to the nation, you're going to make PD jokes instead.

Their capital mages are good. But they are capital only.

Their capital sacreds are good. But they are capital only.

Spider warriors are good. But they are capital only.

Spider knights are good, but they are expensive. Their size puts them at a disadvantage in large battles.

Socerers are going to be your standard mage.

Witch doctors are useful only for spamming dark knowledge then Dark Sacrificing.

The rest of their army sucks.

Did I miss anything? Is there any data supporting the claim that CBM makes them better? That it offers them more diverse strategies? Or are you just going to ignore these questions and make PD jokes?

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

Thanks!

I understand now. Machaka will nevur win, because of teh PD and cap-only. It's like Fomoria and monkeys, all rolled into one!

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

You missed spider riders.
You missed sage + research start - good research in first year, rainbow site search later.
You missed great patrol 15 eye of the lord.
You missed that 4 spiders from witch doctor that are bad ***.
You missed the whole point pd doesn't matter.

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

I can't remember offhand all of the buffs that CBM has given to Machaka, but they are significant.

National spells of course, which I agree are (deliberately) situational. Foul Sacrifice offers an alternative strategy at least, and perhaps makes a bless strategy more viable.

Sacreds are cheaper and have improved MR (which makes them much more feasible in the long term).

PD is greatly improved.

Sorceress has magicboost in battle - that's a big deal.

IIRC a number of other costs have been reduced.

I'm sure there's other stuff (most of it done by qm rather than me), but I think Machaka is much more powerful in CBM than in base game.

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

The sacreds does not really need Bless (maybe E4N4), so points can go into scales, which synergize well with patrolling. And one would be able to buy a lot of sacreds.

The Machaka Hoplites are good as meatshields - you would be destroying enemies with evocations and fire arrows, not with infantry, and they still deal some decent damage.

It would be better if they'd get some D3 access (not 10% Randoms) on the Black Sorcerers for Banefire.

Re: Machaka – a sorcerer’s fevered arachnophobia
 

just marking