Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

By being heavy but having very free joint movements?

I'm not suggesting that they actually get a huge defense bonus, for what it's worth, just that it would help them a lot at competing as heavy infantry. But they're not heavy infantry, they're shock infantry with ridiculous hit chances and decent damage, capable of killing light and heavy infantry alike. If you look at them in that light they're fine the way they are. The only thing they lack is a recruitable survivability unit.

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

Ummm. Defense can come from other sources (shield of gleaming gold has a high parry because it's shiny and makes opponents avert their eyes), so maybe it's encumbering but also so garish that it hurts opponents' eyes?

-Max

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

Well shields don't actually give defence (or I guess they might, but not through parry), it's just the misleading way it displays on the unit screen. Actually I think several shields reduce defence.

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

I came up with the effect first, liked it, and now I'm trying to come up with an explanation. :p

In this case, the armor's increased defense comes from different focus. This only applies on Jomonese, not Japanese, armors, but I imagine the the armor would be designed so it doesn't hinder the usage of the samurai's preferred weapon. Samurai Armor + broadsword/buckler equals defense penalty, but Samurai Armor + katana does not. Other nations' armor isn't as specialized, because some use swords, others use morningstars, some only use spears, they use different shields etc etc.

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

I guess it's how you thing about the shield affecting defense. I think shields give additional defense equal to the parry value, but on a shield hit, you still get damaged, minus the protection of the shield.

Even though Lead Shields have good protection, their low parry value means that they are rarely hit, so they don't help much in melee. A Shield of the Accursed should eat a whole lot of hits for you because of the high parry.

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

Yes but the parry is only added to defence on melee rolls. It doesn't help against earthquakes, when being trampled etc. In fact with a tower shield for example, it gives a malus to your 'real' defence value in these situations. When compared with weapons and armour, which give defence bonus or malus in all situations, the parry value from shields doesn't come across as 'real' defence.

I personally think the way it's displayed just confuses people.

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

Thanks, I see what you mean now. And it's nice the way the mechanics are implemented, since it makes sense you can't jump out of the elephant's way with that big steel tower shield strapped to your arm!

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

I know, but for our purposes it doesn't matter. The fact that the shield of gleaming gold is better at deflecting *arrows* because it's shiny is actually even weirder than if it boosted defense directly.

-Max

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

Silver Hauberk works the same way. I presume it's so shiny arrows can't see it and go right past.

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

The defence/parry will reflect that the glare partially blinds the archer or melee unit, I imagine, making them hard to target. Although that does leave a logic gap about why it still works against blind units.

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

Who says the shield of gleaming gold is better at parrying arrows because it's shiny? It's just that it's a magic shield.

The only reason people associate shields and defence at all is the way it's displayed on the unit screen. If weapon damage was added on to strength in the display you'd get the same thing there. Fortunately it isn't, so it's less confusing.

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

Pretty sure they mean the Shield of Valor, which gives you Air Shield (like the also mentioned Silver Hauberk).

The irony being that in many cases, these missiles are fired somewhat "blind" anyways, just arced in the general direction of potential enemies..... Yet they miss the pretty armor every time. ;)

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

Does the item description say the air shield effect is because the item is shiny? It seems more like they just, you know, give an air shield.

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

The description strongly implies that the shininess is what gives it its high parry. You'll see the same thing for other high-parry shields like the Shield of the Accursed (?). High parry also gives good missile protection.

-Max

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

Bah, regardless, the whole point of this post was to say that that theme should not overtake balance.

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

How fun is a discussion when everyone agrees ;)?
Que someone who disagrees:

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

But that's not at all how they should affect missile defense, if the mechanism is through interfering with the archer's vision. The shield should reduce the precision of any archer targeting the square the Gold/Accursed-Shielded unit is in. The shield should not be more effective against arrows coincidentally falling into the space where the unit is standing.

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

Shield of Gleaming Gold is not a specifically anti-missile shield, it's is just fast, and heavily enchanted. The "shiny" part of this description is for the Awe effect, causing melee attackers to "avert their eyes" and miss the opportunity to strike.

Silver Hauberk "distracts the eyes of the enemy", such that missiles rarely hit - this is a bit odd to me, for reasons you describe.

Shield of Valor says "Symbols of power are inscribed on the surface of this shield to protect the bearer from missiles". So, totally unshiny reason for deflection there.

Interestingly, Valor is 8 Parry + 80% Air Shield, while Gleaming Gold is simply 9 Parry. You are virtually immune to missile fire with Shield of Valor..... simply well protected by Gleaming Gold, because it's a good shield.

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

Precisely, vfb.

-Max

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

Other high-parry shields like Aegis and the Shield of the Accursed have similar notation about how they're hard to look at, in addition to their other effects. It appears to me that they're trying to explain why they get such an insanely good Parry.

But okay, maybe I'm wrong. I'm not KO or JO or anything.

-Max

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

Aegis does not say that. Only other shield IIRC that says any such thing, is the Shield of the Accursed, which DOES have absurdly high Parry, and states that it is "painful to look upon". But again, I don't think that is intended to allude to missile blocking, but rather melee parries. I'm having a hard time believing that the runes are SO painful to "look in the general direction of" that they are really intended to be affecting archers at 100 yards. :p

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

I'm AFC so I can't check/quote the Aegis description. Oh well, such is life.

We agree, though, that the fact that the Shield of the Accursed gives good protection against missiles is an unintended side-effect of its thematically good "defense" (in the form of melee parry). Ergo, stat bonuses don't always correlate perfectly with thematic intent and that's okay; so a defense bonus to Jomon armor doesn't strictly-speaking have to denote better mobility. It could denote spikes or something that the enemy would try to avoid impaling itself on, etc., and even if that gave you more ability to avoid an Earthquake it would be okay--even canonical items have problems.

And KissBlade is right that this is *still* massively OT from his original post. Fine. I propose that all cap-only mages should become recruitable-anywhere. Hmmm. I should mod that into my game. It would certainly make me more willing to play 80% of the nations out there.

-Max

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

How is that supposed to be moving things back on topic?

And wouldn't that just reduce the variety in the game and the distinction between nations?

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

I wouldn't mind if a bit of extra attention were given to those nations who had strong cap only mages. Basically to either reduce the cost of those slightly, or to somehow slightly (I mean -slightly-) improve the non-cap mages. Of course, only for those who can use such a change in the name of balance/realism. For example, T'ien Ch'i already has adequate non-cap mages for their price, to offset their amazing cap only mages, whereas EA Agartha and the 'Heims (aside from Niefel) have very poor cost/effect choices outside of their capital.

I'm having trouble finding ways to balance out the giants in general terms, without completely gutting their thematic essence..... The only thing I can think of, other than the types of nerfs we mostly see (mostly increased costs?), is to just reduce them in size a bit. I mean, in realistic terms, we consider anyone above 7' to be a giant in the real world, so I'm not sure if in game terms, a Niefel Giant absolutely must be size 6. If most giants dropped a size category (with a small reduction in hp/str to coincide), it might go a fair way towards the balance between thematic power, and overall game viability.

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

If most giants dropped a size category, it would be nice boost.
Neifels are already size 5.
Dropping the other giants from 4 to 3 would let 2 of them fit in a square and drastically reduce their swarming issues. Obviously, dropping hp/str might compensate for this.
I don't think the size/hp/str is really the problem with giants. If anything, their troops are usually consider poor already. The cold aura combined with staying power from E9N9 bless is the only real strength of the Neifel Giants.

Both Jotunheim and Utgard also have excellent mages outside their capital. Skratti are excellent mages and thugs in any age. Vaetti hags are cheap and so useful. Seithkonar are also cost-effective and very nice. Cheap Nether Dart spammers, if nothing else.

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

Pardon, Niefel Giants are indeed size 5 currently, I meant to say Niefel Jarls didn't necessarily need to be size 6. :p


And I think you downplay the effect a bit. Yes, it would make their line troops a bit better if they dropped to size 3, which of course would be nicely balanced by a slight reduction in stats. However, one of the cornerstones of the power of the giant nations, is the incredible benefits that they get from Nature blesses. Any reduction in base HP will be reflected by a commensurate reduction in regen rates, and that is a very big deal, even in the case of the aforementioned Skratti thugs. As an aside, I don't think too many people would argue if Niefel Jarl Chill auras were reduced a bit, each one is about 3x as potent as the aura from an Ice Devil (the Lords and Generals of Kokytos!), who could probably use a slight increase as well. Perhaps Ice Devils AND Niefel Jarls could both compromise at Chill (10).

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

Just to continue to pick that nit, the Jarls are size 5 also.

I'd hate to see all the giants made less giant, for lack of a better term, just to reduce the bonus some of them get from regen. And while we may consider someone 7' a giant today, we also still consider them human. Giants of myth were always big.

I'd agree about the Chill aura. I'd forgotten it was that high. That would be the best nerf to Neifelhiem, weakening its early game without really changing its less impressive mid/late game or the much less feared later giant nations.

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

The problem with chill aura is probably that it scales very good with cold Dominion. When Niefels attacked my Lanka in recent SP, for example, aura was closer to 3 iirc. So your own strong (hot) Dominion provides fair protection. At the same time, Ice Devils would probably have to operate in more temperate climate than Niefels. I am not sure whether their aura scales with temperature less than with Niefel. If so, it should be fixed, but probably main effect is due to Dominion difference...

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

*If* giants existed in BC times?

Of course they did and do.. they just have absurdly high stealth values. Sheesh!

But where do you think sayings like.. he was a giant among men... come from???

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

Even the base chill on Niefel Jarls is something like 17. On regular Niefels it's 15 or so. Your Lanka territory must have been *extremely* hot.

-Max

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

The Chill on the Niefel Giants is much smaller than that, I believe it's 6 base, so in 3 Heat should be down to 3. That's not so much a problem, as the Jarls, though still painful when you meet them en masse.

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

According to the recruitment screen, Niefel Jarls are Chill (18) and Niefel Giants are Chill (15). Their chill is pretty ferocious.

-Max

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

Aegis does say that.

"This is a round shield of hardened leather with tufts of goat hair surrounding its edge. Upon the leather surface, the unknown maker painted an extremely vivid image of the Medusa. The image is so vivid that anyone who meets the mad gaze of the painted eyes will be instantly petrified. Anyone fighting the Aegis-bearer will thus have trouble watching and predicting the Aegis-bearer's moves as he tries to avoid the leering face of the Medusa." Emphasis added.

-Max

Re: If Giants existed in BC times...
 

Dammit, this thread has me running around in circles. :p I specifically went and looked at the description for..... Barrier. :doh:

And I admit defeat on the subject of the Niefels as well (size and chill). I will endeavor to stop using crack to sweeten my coffee, they always said it would catch up to me. :o

Though I have to say, in the case of Aegis, it's not that it's painful to look at or some such, you simply can't or you will die. You would think the enemy army would keel over in droves as they gazed in the general direction of the Aegis (or a Gorgon).