Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Forge Lord with his hammer forges RoW for 13 s and with ordinary hammer for 17, and also forges hammers for 3 e. It's too much I think, currently it's hard to find better pretender aimed for mid/lategame effectiveness.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Just read the guide and have a quick question regqrding Oreiads.

They seem indeed to be a very strong unit, except for a detail that is bugging me no end as I prepare to play this nation in a multi era game:

Isn't the 10 HP a big problem for all the strategies discussed in the guide? Stoneskin and mistform can only help so much... it only sufices 2 lucky hits (1HP by mistform plus another hit) to wipe out much more than just 10HP... not sure personal regeneration helps a bit when you only have 10 HP. Has anyone actually used Oreiads as intended in this guide re Combat and managed to have them survive for long?

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

I'm no expert, but the low hp is a problem and you will lose Oreiads because of it. They're very nice but fragile.

If the mistform pops, she's basically dead. The regen is to keep the 1 hp that gets through mistform from adding up.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Mistform is only negated if hit by a magic weapon, or a particularly hard hit. As long as the oreiad avoids trying to solo thugs she should be fine.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

And avoid those nations that get magic weapons on recruitables (or even PD?). Caelum and Atlantis jump to mind in the early age. There are probably others.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

TNN gets them on the cap only sacreds. Hmm... I can't think of any others offhand.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Hinnom and Ashdod get magic weapons iirc. Not sure about gath though.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

The "particularly hard" hit, when it comes to 10 HP, represents 2.5 HP of dammage (25% of total HP as per the mistform definition...) :rolleyes: so no diference at all...

So, I wonder if anyone has used them as described in the guide...: script, stoneskin, mistform, resist lightining etc and let her alone thugging?

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

I haven't used them extensively, but Sidhe Lords should have the same problem (maybe a couple more hp, but not enough to change the equation).
I've definitely seen them take a good number of hits without breaking the mistform. If it only needs 3-4 hp that seems unlikely.
And mistform on an actual high hp SC should be almost unbreakable without magic weapons, but I've seen them lose it too.

Are you sure about that definition?

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

I've tried it, and it works great. The main thing is the awe though. With awe +5 almost no hits get through, and they very seldom pop the mistform. She can script "air shield" as well. Against anything except high morale giants, undead and tramplers, she is near invincible.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Yeah, the awe is true enough. Still... I do not know why but I feel some reluctance to have a 400 gold, fully kitted 10 HP ubermage melleeing at the front lines...

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

I did use them, and they worked really well in groups of three. I had to make a couple tweaks:

• forge ring of lightning resist - my bodyguards weren't keeping enough cavalry, wolves, flying, etc off the mages to prevent casting
• issue with cold - I lost a few to cold auras because of stoneskin
• for revig - I used boots of messenger on E2, and earth boots + amu of resilience for E1 so I could cast summon earthpower w/o gems.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

I didn't like the "Oriead Thug" concept either for several reasons:

1. Orieads only have 10hp, so even with all of their protections up, they still get killed frequently by a single lucky hit.

2. Awe is nice, yes, but it can be countered easily by berserk units. Orieads, if left to their own devices rather than being scripted to attack, will spam Stream of Life until units get in range of Shockwave. One Berserk unit made in this way will utterly ignore the Awe aura.

3. Mistform is countered by magic weapons.

A 400gp mage that has easy access to reinvigoration and items thereof can cast a lot of battle magic. Is it really worthwhile to take such a unit and have it run into melee? I certainly don't like seeing an Oriead surrounded by a swarm of units. Against indie units, fine, they do quite well, but not against an enemy player's army.

Why would I want the Orieads (whose numbers are rather limited) to fight armies when I could use them to assassinate commanders? Their thugging ability is provable, but against a great host, they are always endangered. Why not use their power against a smaller force of usually a single mage or commander, or at most such a commander and 10 body guards?

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

I think mistform is broken by 25 damage, not 25% of hp.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

I don't use oreo thugs much, but assassination is a losing game.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Why? With access to a nice thug, and a spirit helm. It works often.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Thanks for the correction. I guess the Wiki definition got me quite confused as it shows also the >25%HP in the list: http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Mistform

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Fundamentally, it loses due to cost/return.

It costs too many actions to assassinate.
To concquer an indy you will have to assassinate 3 commanders.

To conquer an opponent you will have to stealth assassins. Which will take one or more turns, usually and runs a risk of detection. Assassinations also frequently fail.

Assassins pay a 'premium' usually for the stealth ability, and roughly speaking are inferior to equivalent thugs without.

So the extra turns - stealthy, or assassinating are the costs.

The return problem is this: The average mage, thug or SC has the opportunity (and will usually succeed if winning the fight) of killing *multiple* enemy troops and/or mages/SCs.

The 'return' on the action is therefore much higher than an assassinations possible death of an opponent.

Toss in the fact that the chances to score loot are lower too.

I'm *not* saying a well timed assassination, or surprise stealth of a key retreat province can't be an incredibly viable tool.

But merely that generally speaking much less so than other options.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Because it's not worth the time and effort.

Even if you succeed, you're likely to spend your time killing indy commanders.

And you have to keep moving, or they'll patrol with a force designed to kill you. Since they know where you are and how
you're geared & scripted.

When you could be raiding, taking provinces and sneaking away before you can be attacked.

Not that assassination doesn't have niche uses. Multiple assassins on an unprepared target can be effective. Assassins can kill commanders in an attacking army to split it. But not as a main use for 400gp cap-only mages.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

I've used this strategy verbatim, I'm a bit surprised how many people are dismissing it without even trying it. The ultimate answer is it works very well (in most situations), just try it. There are several people commenting that it worked well for them, and near as I can tell the people saying it doesn't work are speaking from a (flawed) completely theoretical point of view. For a bit more of a technical discussion...

As I discussed in my thug guide, mistform is a game changer spell as to what can thug. Magic weapons are a no-no, but theres plenty of situations where that's nothing you need to worry about when you're talking about cloud trapeze/stealthy guys that can dictate when they fight. Excepting magic weapons, once you get any sort of protection 25 point damage blows just doesn't happen so you've only got a 1% chance of mistform popping each time you get hit. Awe/vine shields trigger before defense (easy access to vine shields, no reason not to double dip), so if you've only got a couple people actually swinging at you each round, even a fair defense will counter most of them and against most foes you're looking at getting hit in the rough ballpark of a couple times per round. When you're talking about having a 20+ protection (iron /bark skin on top of armor) most of the times you're hit don't do damage (no chance to pop mistform). Again, just try it. Orieads with any cheap armor and mistform will only take roughly 1 damage every round even against pretty tough opponents. With regen (and reinvig) they just can't be taken down by regular troops - a pretty solid definition of a thug. With nicer equipment I'm not exaggerating that they can clear whole armies if the army is not fielding anti-SC strats (I've done it more than once in MP games) - a pretty solid definition of a SC. Magic weapons or mindless troops are easy thug counters for many thugs, but against "normal" troops - even pretty good ones the Oriead will clean up. Being able to pick up 100% elemental immunity to whatever seems appropriate cuts down a good bit on magic weapons you need to worry about.

BTW, even if you get unlucky and mistform pops from that 1% you're still pretty solid against plenty of troops with a 25+ protection, good defense, awe, vine shield and regen.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Oh, believe me, I didn't whiz on your Cheerios until after I had attempted it. Too many 400g units went down the toilet for my tastes. I decided to go the standard route of kitting up Sleepers. I didn't find the strategy wholly ineffective, especially wrt indies, but I didn't like the Oriead's loss rate versus players. All of the items I put on my list of objections are observations, not hypotheses.

As for assassinations, I like to assassinate enemy encampments besieging castles. Drop in several Oriead thugs and then "Massassinate" their commander group. Combination with Dark Skies increases the probability of seduction.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Yes, now that is something I completely agree with.

I *love* wrathful skies, and I *love* assassinating when sieged.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

In my case, I am going to definitely try it! Mistform, stoneskin and the rest notwithstanding I'm just a bit worried about those 10 HP for a 400 gold, cap only, fully kitted etc unit;) In addition to smart play and skills one has to perform a sort of a Leap of Faith to get there I guess.. :D

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Quick one the recommended pretender in the guide:

My game is going to be a "non standard" Indies at level 7. I made some tests with the pretender and scales recommended here but even fighting with the easy indies, as recommended, survivability of the Bull was borderline in the early game, and the slightest mistake in province selection for attack could easily end up ina dead bull...

So I tweaked a little bit the proposed pretender/scales so to get dominion 9, with awe, at the expense of the luck scale, to neutral (or -1, not really sure as away from game as I type). Although still need to be very carefull when selecting indie provinces to attack early game this pretender seems to have a higher resilience.

Any ideas/opinions on the above?

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Yep, I like my play of arco much better. = )

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

i find the bull way to fragile for expansion, I prefer to take a Cyclops myself you can get a Dom9 E6 cyclops O3S3Mis2M1 and he will be able to take on anything short of heavy cavalry especially if you can give him a weapon of some sort.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Lord of rebirth. Gives you death access, and after you research alteration makes a perfectly fine Sc.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

If you take him sleeping then sure he is a decent expander. but that still leaves the question of what do you use for your year one expansion?

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Ferrosol
You'll probably be surprised but I managed to overexpand W9S9 TC played by a good player with... guess what? Peltasts and a PoD. It was vanilla game with Indies 5. Without a PoD you can still expand with peltasts very well and rapidly research Alt with Philosophers so that your dormant god is able to go killing the turn he awakes. It is perfectly doable especially if you consider that you'll have a lot of money for mercs because philosophers are so cheap.
So peltasts + mercs is the answer. The trick is that peltast is an absolutely decent unit against EA indies who are basically a lot weaker than in MA. You will lose them and have to replenish your ranks but it IS doable. Just leave really heavy provinces for your pretender and do some testing before each attack.
I think I failed only once or twice against indies with peltasts in that game at all and it was against barbarians (should've tested better)

And once you have enough resources, you may switch to chariot archers that have a good second form just in case.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

I'd like to echo ano's comments. I believe I was the first one - but I absolutely say the *best* unit in arco's repetoire is by far the chariot archers.

I cannot begin to say how good these units are. Ok, they aren't jag warriors. But they are hands down a great unit. Whats not to like with a cheap trampling unit with two forms? And with the special targeting options that archers get?

Now, as for sleeping or awake. A lot of people like the PoD - and he's a perfectly ok choice. However I like the Lord of Rebirth better. He generates an insane amount of gems, and provides fast access for dwarf hammers, and death path access.

As for 'you can't use him awake..'

you have to be careful with him. However, once you get earth meld you're golden. earth meld is 100 research points. And if you go with a proper arco build, each researcher is 10-12 rp (going from memory). Assuming its 10 this means that you have
100 rp on turn 5.


The question therefore becomes is 4 turns of expansion with your pretender in year one, worth the sacrifice in design points.

Personally, I can't think of anything else to do with the points, so I usually answer yes.

Now like I said, you need to be careful with him. you have to script something like:

Stoneskin, earthmeld, earthmeld, earthmeld, earthmeld. If you dont' script the earth meld.. he'll cast stupid stones.. and die.

So you accompany him with lots of cheap troops.. cardaces, or even slingers. Chariot archers.

You have to move him forward, or back, depending on the opposition he's facing. You want him close enough to have good precision on the meld, and far enough back he doesn't get mobbed.

But as I just scripted.. he binds up any opposing troops, and they run over them.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

But that's not pretender expansion. That's pretender & lots of troops expansion. Which means you're not building other expansion parties.
The point of an awake SC is to add to expansion with your regular troops, not to replace it or back them up.
I'm not a EA Arco expert, so I don't know how their national troops do at indy clearing, but do you really get enough advantage from using an awake pretender like that to cover the 150 design points? Especially when you take less provinces with your troops, because some are being sent with the pretender, and then probably reinforced since you're using cheap ones.

On another note, I doubt the "special targeting options that archers get" carry over once they switch forms and charge into melee. I believe they switch to attack closest. On second thought, what special targeting options? The only difference between the "fire" and "attack" targets is that "fire" lacks a "rearmost" target. What's the advantage?

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

EA Arco can expand reasonably well without an SC true. Although I would argue that SC pretender offers the best "bang for your buck" you can get. I would further point out that if you intend to rely on chariots to expand with (which I agree are excellent btw) you need an awake SC who can attack on Turn 2 to secure the resources you need (especially if you go the typical sloth build for Philosophers). As such I would argue that as the Lord of Rebirth is not capable of turn 2 expansion due to its flimsy Armour and non existent damage. Precisely which awake SC you take is up to you but I would argue that the Cyclops is probably the single most effective SC Pretender in the game.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

I use an immortal for an early expander, preferring the Phoenix, since I already have good magical diversity. The Master Lich is my #2, but he isn't as capable of early expansion. The first two provinces taken with the Phoenix may take 2-3 turns each until you get Evocation Level 1, but you can expand with chariots anyway, and 1.5 provinces per turn is better than 1 province per turn.


I like the immortals because I don't have to worry about them getting killed, and even if they get horror marked beyond any reason (to the point where they get a horror attack every round), they can still act as a capitol mage (since the perpetual horror attacks generally confine him to center). You can always attack with the Pretender, of course, via Teleport/Trapeze/etc. or within their movement radius (which is why I love the phoenix) but the horror attack will always send them back home. You rarely want to put equipment on an immortal except for ritual magic anyway (Exception: lich), so that's immaterial except that the horror marked pretender can't use boosters without losing them to the horror attacks, so your ritual options become a bit more confined.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Regardless of whether you want to call it SC or SC+troops expansion, the difference is very strong. The SC will easily lets you take+4 territories the first year. and more like +8 the second.

As for the design points - you can argue it either way. As I indicated. As for the the chariot archers, yes, if you order them to fire - the order converts when they switch to melee. And vice versa. If you order them to Hold and attack rearmost - they will advance to bow range and fire.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

The phoenix is one of my favorite pretenders in CBM. However, it is not especially effective for arco. The phoenix does best with a high dominion score - which wastes the effects of skeptics - or at least requires you to spend design points that sceptics otherwise mitigates.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Under CBM Cyclops is 125 points, and needs awe to safely expand early. That is 295 points more than the lord of rebirth.

The lord of rebirth gets you into death, the cyclops does not. Arco needs the alteration school anyway for Oreos. Finally, the proof is in the pudding. I have much more luck with Rebirth than I do with Cyclops = )

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Well, the strategy for using skeptics is exactly the opposite when using an immortal pretender.

When you use an immortal, you want wide dominion so he can travel, thus you use your Skeptics to collapse dominion walls in advance of preachers and your stealthy flying prophet. You use them to expand rather than contain your dominion. There are two aspects to dominion sculpting: containment and expansion.

When assaulting a castle, I like to collapse dominion in the province and then preach my own into it so that my pretender can participate in the assault. This also has the added benefit of preventing any immortal units inside (vampires) from resurrecting. Skeptics are very powerful heretics (level 3), so they have a 90% base chance of nullifying a candle which means they are effective both at containing bad scales and rapidly enabling the encroachment of your dominion on others. You can work down the candles on a target province long before your preaching force arrives to mop up the mess.


Additionally, when used in this way, skeptics function as a primary scout force rather than hanging about in your own lands.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

I don't use skeptics to contain my dominion. Effectiveness of skeptics to remove candles depends on the number of candles in the province.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

You must be playing on big maps if you expect to get 8+ provinces with a pretender in the second year. Aren't you usually more constrained by other players by then than by expansion parties?

I'll have to experiment with the chariot archers. I'd thought that archers on hold and attack would fire if they were in range, but not advance the first 2 turns. Then attack without firing.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

I'm aware that candle removal is dependent upon the number of candles.

I recruit chariot archers in the beginning because they have a lower resource cost. Putting them on hold and attack causes them to fire arrow volleys for 2 turns and then advance and trample.

After I have sufficient resources, I switch to regular chariots since they have a lower cost and upkeep.


If you don't use skeptics to contain your dominion, then what does this mean?
Having high dominion makes dominion spread take a little longer, and it means that once you get dominion into a province you can make it very difficult to remove it. I like having high dominion with skeptics, but if you just take the Phoenix' base dominion, her cheap 50 point design point cost is still worthwhile considering the immortality and free Phoenix Pyre.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

having high dominion does not make dominion spread take longer.

The chance that dominoin stays in province is higher; but the number and effectiveness of temple checks is greater. The latter outweighs the former.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

The number of temple checks is greater? How so?

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Sorry.. brain about 6 steps ahead. The number of temple checks is exactly the same, the effectiveness is increased.

I was thinking about the awake pretenders extra dominion increases.. (vs a sleeping pretender) but its not germane.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

every time i read one of your guides i must play dom3...again :-)

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Well good, keep playing Jens.. we need more players

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

I have lost an embarrassing number of Oreiads in my current MP game. (This is the one where I'm using a Virtue Dom10 pretender). Here are some of the ways:

I tried to be cute and combine a shock resist item (or was it Resist Elements?), Ironskin, and Resist Lighting. Somehow the math worked out that I was only 75% shock resistant. This was when I learned that resistance is a % chance to avoid the attack entirely rather than damage reduction. So eventually she killed herself with a shock wave.

Fatigue was occasionally a problem. I really don't understand why she persisted in swinging her frost brand instead of using shockwave when only at 60 or so fatigue.

Ulm's PD and troops are just that good. High enough morale, attack skill, and strength to produce enough 1-pt hits that mistform pops on a 1% per hit chance. This is probably the most common failure mode.

forgetting to script correctly or at all

trying to seduce, failing, losing the assassination battle. Once it was skellyspam, another time I was facing something really big.

As I am thinking back, I just realized something. I was scripting stoneskin, mistform, strength of gaia. The point of Str of Gaia being +nature and +regen. However, does the barkskin effect of Str of Gaia over-ride stoneskin? I don't think I have a recent battle to view to check this. Argh.

All in all, the thing about Oreiad thugs is that they are fiddly. My first ever MP game I was Helheim. I put firebrands & golden shields on Vanjarls and CTd them all over, and I was amazed at how well it worked. Whereas Oreiads I have managed to screw up in multiple ways. So I think an experienced player can make Oreiad thugs work, but newbs should think twice. Also, Vanjarls are recruit anywhere, and cheaper than Oreiads.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

Exactly my criticisms of oreos.

They are a great unit but miscast and only occassionally userful as thugs.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

I'm not sure I buy resistance being a % chance. Are you sure you weren't just getting bad open ended rolls combined with critical hits due to fatigue.

A mage in melee with opponents will only cast spells half the time. It has nothing to do with fatigue.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

> I'm not sure I buy resistance being a % chance. Are you sure you weren't just getting bad open ended rolls combined with critical hits due to fatigue.

The case of the self-inflicted lightning strike was quite dramatic. Here we are, smacking down shockwave, and then oops, we just did 11 points of damage to ourselves with our own shockwave. Goodbye!

> A mage in melee with opponents will only cast spells half the time. It has nothing to do with fatigue.

Right, of course. I get it now.

Re: EA Arco - uncle moneybags
 

aaminoff is right in one thing. %reduction vs. %avoid should be really easy to tell. In particular, %reduction would show up small amounts of lightning damage every time you were in the AoE, but %avoid would show no damage most of the time and then *bam* lots of damage. Word to the wise, don't use ironskin with shockwave. =)