Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Wouldn't you?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Nooo.. if I were elite troops, I would be telling the grunts to handle that god foraken creature.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Delegation... truly it is the tool of heroes. :D

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

It would make more sense for LA than MA Pythium.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Anything can be made to make sense, when it comes down to it. I think the initial point was the unit is underused at present because it has map-move 1 and is therefore a strategically poor choice. Were it to compliment hydrae it would have a use and therefore actually see play.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

It wouldn't really boost pythium and that isn't the point - it's more to give emerald guard a more defined role and increase tactical choice. That's what cbm is all about.

I don't really understand the additionally part. I don't think it presents any strong theme problems. Maybe poison res would make more sense than poison immunity on that front, but man poison res can be a pain in the *** to actually make use of. It definitely wouldn't help using them with hydrae.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Balance request:
The event: "your lab burns down" is seriously punitive to the point of being ridiculous. Games can be lost just because you got this event year 1. I'd argue it should be removed from the game.

Losing your lab costs you:
500 gold - which can be most of your income early on, assuming you can even rebuild it.
At least one turn's worth of research.

Lose all your research and miss a turn buying units? That's just stupidly awful. In a MP setting its game over - it'd be tempting to turn AI after getting it early on.

Basically, this is perhaps the most damaging event in the game, and its not even all that rare (i've seen it with Lk3 scales). Its very existence unbalances the play environment - just because its mostly random who or when someone gets screwed doesn't mean it doesn't skew game results or isn't unfair for the player(s) effected.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

I don't find it's that bad.. not worse than bad plague events that's for sure

One turn's buying mages is no big deal - you are normally cash limited early anyway so you make it up the next couple of turns in useful purchases. One turn's lost research hurts but again isn't excessive, and further into the game you can choose to spread out your mages or take the risk.

The rebuild cost is possibly the worst of it early on, but again it isn't a game killer, and if you took misfortune scales, well, that's the cost.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

...

Have you been hit with the event:
-On turn 2 with a sleeping/dormant pretender and didn't buy a mage turn 1? No research or mages till your pretender wakes up!
-In year 1 with a heavy investment in mages and/or a research pretender? Losing the useful actions of 5+ commanders and 70+ rps in the first year is not ok.
-When 500 gold is most of your income for a turn?
-When you've been rushed and you need mages/research/access to gems to survive?
-When playing a nation that has no useful commanders aside from those requiring a lab?

The event is far more common than the plague event as far as I can tell, and you can minimize the chance of the plague event by taking growth scales (in addition to taking order to reduce event frequency). And I'd argue that for many nations, the plague event can actually be less damaging than losing their lab.

And if it was the only cost of misfortune scales it might almost be ok. Except you'll also get incessantly plagued by indie attacks on your provinces, get units cursed, and generally have bad stuff happen to you. Misfortune scales shouldn't be 'you lose the game' - well, maybe misfortune 3 could be that. And as i've already noted, i've seen this event year 1 with Lk3 scales! That's just stupid.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

I'm playing a game right now, and with +2 luck, in the first 5 turns, I've had earthquake(killed pop and temple), fire (burned lab), and plague.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

I had a SP game i was trying to turn-bash expansion in. Lk+3. By the end of turn 8 the game was unplayable due to 3 overwhelming indie attacks (including one that put my capitol under siege), burned lab, and a capitol plague. Also numerous unrest and curse events. Number of positive events? 1 (woo, +15 province defense!). Combined with a really unlucky combat that lost most of my largest expansion army due to routing early (and my capitol getting sieged, so no retreat route), and there really wasn't much I could do.

Maybe more bad events need to become impossible with good luck scales as well? But I still maintain the lab burns event is really reamful.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Pointless discussion, since events can't be modded.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Still, luck should get some kind of boost in CBM I think. Or maybe reduce Order's gold penalty/bonus. Almost everyone still takes Order3/misf2

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Luck is already boosted in CBM.

Do you want a bigger boost?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Yes, I should have clarified, I think Luck needs a bigger boost, or order a nerf for turmoil/luck to be worthwhile for most nations.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Seems you really can't please everyone, I've recently had requests to remove the boost to luck.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

I like it just the way it is.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

I can't really think of a good reason to remove the boost to luck, as it still doesn't seem to persuade most players out of Order/Misfortune.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

I also like it the way it is. I think the fact luck isn't popular doesn't necessarily mean it's underpowered - when I've used it the results have been satisfactory.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Two possible suggestions:

1. Some heros for some nations are replicated across ages. In a multiage game this precludes one nation from getting them, if a different nation already has. Can each nations hero be given a different monster number. Ie., its not hard to use the copy function.

2. In the interests of conserving head room, perhaps a script could be written that strips monsters, weapons etc out if they nation using them is not in play.

ie., if Abysian isn't in use all modded abysian monsters, weapons, heros etc can be deleted.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

1. Are you sure that's true? Just because those ids are referred to by hero commands doesn't mean they're unique. I wouldn't think they'd interfere with each other. But if you've tested, fair enough.

2. What does that have to do with cbm?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

wrt part 2, that seems totally unnecessary. CBM uses 53 mosterIDs, 16 weaponIDs and 25 armorIDs. That's less than some nation mods (well, not the armour slots, but you'd need to be running an amazing number of mods to use the other 175), and there's demonstrably no absolute shortage of headroom currently - see my sig for said demonstration.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Hi, I had a thought a moment ago while playing an SP game: what about giving the standard independent commanders map move 1?
It might actually make national troop leaders worthy of recruiting under some circumstances, because as of now they are quite worthless.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

That was the case in cbm in a previous version. Don't think it's the case now,.. it's hard for me to tell since I always play NI.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Yes, this was the case (as well as increased prices for indy commanders), but it was removed due to public backlash. Even the last vestige - normal indy commanders 40 instead of 30 - has had some complaints.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

QM:

Is why I am developing a batchfile to compile a mod.
In it, the player will ask questions: For example:

Lower Effectiveness Indy Commanders (Indy commanders set to mapmove 1, Cmd=30) ? If the player says yes, you add that bit of code into the mod.

This would allow really customizable games....

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

I like the concept, although I wish you luck trying to give indy commanders 30 leadership.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Thought- Maybe make moon blades either one handed or AP? ATM they just don't seem powerful enough, as the vast majority of SCs depend on having high prot, and while the bonus against magical beings is substantial, I still think I would prefer to dual wield elf-banes, axes of hate, dusk daggers, use GCs, etc. If its meant as more of an anti-troop weapon then making it one handed would make me much more likely to use it since I could pair it with a shield.

Sort of OT- How exactly does the slay magic effect of the elf-bane work? I assume its some sort of MR roll? Similar question about the Smasher, how does its effect work?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Don't forget that the x2 is after weapon damage+str (at least it was in Dom2). When a unit gets hit by a x2 or x3 damage weapon by any type of thugish unit it is generally toast.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

I realize that, but personally, I would be much more likely to build a Gate Cleaver, or any of the other above named items. Moon blades are just too specialized, and the 2h status means they have to compete w/GCs and Flambeaus, 2 far superior weapons.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Rather than threadjack another thread, I'd like to point out a few things I dislike in CBM:
-Phoenix pyre for the phoenix is miho overpowered.
-Umbrals at Conj7 instead of 5 ruins EA Agartha.

I understand phoenixes are rather bad in vanilla, but turning them into SC's usable for early expansion seems exaggerated to me. Would you rather have a great bull of a phoenix for initial expansion for instance?

Umbrals are strong, yes. But then what else does Agartha has for them? Rhuax and Barathrus Pact, but Ehuax isn't really awesome and that's about it. Needing Conj7 means EA Agartha needs to find something else to jsut survive until they get to the umbrals, but what? Their troops are still poor, and their mages need schools other than Conj to be useful on the battlefield, which delays umbrals further. Were these nice undead so overpowered EA Agartha dominated the EA? I don't think so.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Regarding the umbrals. I completely agree. I've made the same point a couple of times. So in my balance mods - I knock it back down to conj 5.

Regarding the phoenix - I don't think he's overpowered - great for early expansion, only fair after that.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Strengthening EA Aggy by putting umbrals back at their lower research level would run counter to the concept behind CBM because the umbrals would still be rather overpowered and would reduce the realistic options for the nation by virtue of their power. I think other elements of EA Aggy should be strengthened instead.

Umbrals are a bit like tarts or jaguar fiends in that they're just crazy cheap for what they do.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Phoenix right now is just fine IMO. There aren't a lot of nations that can get much use out of his paths, and while he rapes indies, against human opponents the lack of slots blows.

Umbrals- Sombre kinda has it IMHO. Honestly, I think he should just make the sacreds a bit better, or make some of their troops actually good.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Regarding umbrals: They are not crazy cheap. You get *one* per summoning. And it takes a mage action to do so. And then you have to Gift of Reason them to thug them.

Never mind that you have no viable nature pretenders - so getting a nature path is painful on top of your high cost, high resource units.

Plus you are *well* into mid game before you get access to umbrals.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

WHAT realistic options for Agartha? They *have* none.

Regarding umbrals: They are not crazy cheap. You get *one* per summoning. And it takes a mage action to do so. And then you have to Gift of Reason them to thug them.

Never mind that you have no viable nature pretenders - so getting a nature path is painful on top of your high cost, high resource units.

Plus you are *well* into mid game before you get access to umbrals, as regardless of how much you might wish it you have other research priorities.

More or less awake pretender is required to survice. Good scales are required for units - and you have mediocre mage paths.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

From another thread:
I don't think half of the changes are unbalanced. I think there are a few changes which unbalance a lot.
I think EA Agartha is made worthless by CBM, and it's one of my favorite EA nations.
I dislike the fact that I learnt stuff in Vanilla and must learn anew in CBM, but that's just me being lazy.
I also dislike the fact that some changes turn nations into very different beasts between vanilla and CBM (Bogarus and horrors strategy coming to mind).
I know that CBM is popular, and so popular that most games are CBM now and no longer CBM, which I regret for the abovementioned reasons. I can see that there's been a lot of work put in it, and a lot of thinking too.

Now that you've heard my gripes, here is some hopefully constructive feedback and questions.
Be warned, this will be long. I'm picking from the changelog.
Also note I do not have extensive MP experience so I may be doing things that are considered worthless or stupid by better players.

I hope you won't consider this list of "I don't like" offensive, I wouldn't write it if I didn't think CBM is a good work. I'm also not commenting on the good changes because, actually there'd be too much to say.

-Gloves of the gladiator number of attacks increased: Was it really needed? I had some success with these in Vanilla.
-Amphiptere a commander: I know they aren't worth much but flavor wise I don't understand why thy are commanders.
-Cheaper titan pretenders: Not sure it was needed.
-Phoenix turned into an early expansion machine. I think it's cheap for what it provides. I think someone who wants an early expansion machine should pick a great white bull and I'm not sure it's still worth buying even in CBM?
-independant commanders slightly more expensive: I don't like. Sure, national non mage commanders aren't recruited, but paying 10 or 20 more for an indie leader won't change that. I pay 60 in vanilla to get a knight commander on turn 2 if I can't have another indie commander, so making them cost 50 or 60 wouldn't change my priorities but upset me a lot. I don't think changing the price of indy commanders fixes the problem of not recruiting nationals, so it should be dropped or another solution found.
-staff of corrosion: I'm not sure it changes much to lower its level. When playing T'ien Ch'i, I often have mages cast acid bolts or rain. They can forge the staff, but since they often lead armies themselves, there's noone to give the staff to. If it cost less gems, I migth give it to an indie commander, but then between a commander + 1 mage-turn of forging + the gems and building a mage that can cast acid bolt, I don't really find it interesting. Of course, T'ien Ch'i acid-able mages are capital only so on a big map it may be different, but I'll generally prefer a mage over a commander + 1 mage-turn + a 15-gem-item. Right now I think the change makes Construction more interesting than Evocation, and I don't think it's needed.
-catoblepas: I liked them at 15, but if they aren't used much mayb ethey were too expensive.
-eater of the dead: Do the changes make it more interesting to summon one considering it's always going to backfire and looks even worse when feral now?
-slime: ok it was mostly useless, but it was the only spell some water mages could cast and they would cast it. What does the change try to accomplish? Make water magic somewhat useful in combat at low Evocation? Why?
-blindness: Isn't 2 a bit early?
-ligthning bolt: Why make it weaker?
-the kindly ones: when someone casts that and I have blood mages, I want to dispel it asap. It usually costs me 3 mages before I can dispel, whihc costs at least 30 gems. Having the spell cost only 30 means I should always cast it and cast it again every turn if an opponent of mine plays blood since we'll both lose 30 gems but he'll also lose 3 mages. So I think it's so cheap it's a no-brainer and should always be cast is possible, unless all global enchantment slots are used by or needed for other enchantments.
-call lesser horror: I don't like the change. It turns SB into horror nations from the get go. Maybe I should just try to use it, but I think horrors should be R'lyeh only, and I don't think it's thematic for Bogarus to be horror casters.
-Heavenly Fires: I spammed them at 10 mana. At 8 it seems too cheap.
-Celestial Soldiers: Half-cost is a bit exaggerated in my opinion. I agree 15 was a lot, but 10 would be nice without lowering that much.
-Umbral: This just ruins EA Agartha imo. What do they have left to try to survive? Even the Barathrus Pact boost doesn't do much to change the situation. Lower gold prices for some troops don't mitigate their crappiness.
-Zmey: If those flew correctly, the cost might not have to be changed? I don't understand why they move as if they didn't have flying. I'd rather increase their APs and increase the cost a bit, maybe not up to the initial 8.
-Oracle: Giving fortune teller may look thematic, but I don't think it has any effect except boosting an already strong choice.
-Titan female: Why does hse get a research bonus superior to that of a sage?
-Lord of rebirth: Didn't need the boost in gems imo. He's a very good chassis for getting EN blesses and getting started in Death too, which complements well some nations he's available for.
-Grey knight: Does he need such a drastic gold decrease? I've not encountered enough to make heavy use of them, but I always wanted to build them. Probably just because I think they're cool.
-Tower guard and defender: Are Man LA so strong these need to be more expensive?
-Adonim: Ashdod can expand with 1 Adon built every turn early on and progress exponentially with these guys, yet their cost remains 400? If Talmai Elders cost more, Adonim should also cost more.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

I hope you don't take any of my comments personally. I'm just stating my reactions to them.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

-Gloves of the gladiator- loved the change.
-Amphiptere a commander: I don't understand the change but I don't care about it either. Still not used.
-Cheaper titan pretenders: good change. Still not used.
-Phoenix love the change. an alternative to the cyclops.
-catoblepas: meh.
-eater of the dead: meh.
-Slime- love the change.
-blindness: Like the change.
-ligthning bolt: Why make it weaker?Agree with the change.

-the kindly ones: I love the change to this spell. The kindly ones *will* attack your mages, rumors to the contrary. The kindly ones are fairly easily defeated.

-Heavenly Fires: I have no problem with the any of the changes to TC. I play TC extensively and find them underpowered.
-Umbral: This just ruins EA Agartha imo. Completely agree with original poster. Umbral is the ownly redeeming value in EA Agartha. And you nerfed it.
-Zmey: Cannot be used reliably due to erratic behavior in dominons.
-Bogarus, Horrors: First, horrors are not the province of Rlyeh, who has no notive access to it. It is rather the province of blood nations. Bogarus, mictlan etc. Early horrors made bogarus playable rather. However, I do think they need a national spell rather than allowing already strong nations to have equivalent access.

-Oracle bonus is thematic - I like it.
-Titan female bonus is way to strong, as I opined earlier.
-I like the Lord of Rebirth as is. He is never used in vanilla. I would like to see him extended to Agartha, Ctis, Machaka, and others to name a few.
-Agree about Man LA
-Ashdod needs a major nerf

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

I appreciate the feedback, I hope other people also comment on these issues.

I have yet to see them used in any Dom 3 game, vanilla or CB. In fact I was even contemplating perhaps they are not boosted enough. Thinking about it, I think their unpopularity probably has to do with the Eye Shield, for 10n a generally more all purpose SC counter, that also lets you wield another weapon like a frost brand.

So you have a thematic objection to them being commanders? I don't see a huge issue with it, as they are not portrayed as particularly stupid creatures, why they should not be able to act independently (they still can't lead troops).

Well, the problem is when you compare them to base game pretenders like the prince of death. More encumbrance and lack of protection make them much less suited to early expanding, so baring a few of them with a bless niche they need something to set them apart. I suppose I could have gone the other way and nerfed the best vanilla pretenders even more instead, but people already complain about those nerfs. The other question is, by making titans cheaper, what pretenders are they making unusable compared to base game?


Well, first off, I think it's a hard argument that the great white bull is worse of an option in CB. 50 points cheaper, and more importantly for a trample pretender -1 enc and +2 reinvig. While it competes with the phoenix in CB, the base game equally costed PoD is far tougher competition.

But beyond that, I'm not sure the phoenix is that great an expanding machine. Most expanders pretenders can reliably take a province a turn from turn 2- the phoenix simply can't. And it also fares very poorly in pretender vs pretender fights.

That's a reasonable point, the current change doesn't do much, more a statement than anything else.

I don't completely understand what you are saying, it doesn't change much to lower it's level, but it makes construction more interesting than evocation?

Even if they were decent at 15, the lack of use suggest people need a prod to look at them.

All i can say is I never saw one summoned before the 1.5 changes, and now I've seen it summoned twice. By the time it goes rogue it's probably tart era, at which point there are a lot of thins to smack it down.

People are always complaining water is the weakest path. But more relevantly, if I see something that is nearly useless and can try and make it so people would take it into consideration, I try to do that.

The eye shield is also research 2. Also, in dom2 Mackaka used to actually start with blindness and it wasn't even that amazing of a feature.

Just trying to bring it in lie with the other bolts spells. It is so much better than the others base game it's ridiculous.

I'm not sure it's no-brainer, because it often comes after the caster's empire as well. In fact I once even had it kill the god that cast the global, dispelling itself. ;)

I hate to break it to you, but Bogarus uses horrors quite prolifically base game as well (just the send horror kind since the battle summon is so crappy). And, in fact, R'yleh has a horribly hard time using horrors in base game or CB.

That's a pretty minor tweak to think is greatly unbalanced. I don't think I have ever heard anyone complain demons of the heavenly fire are too good.

Well, I'll leave that for others to comment on, but again i have not heard any other complaints they are too good.

This does seem to be a widely unpopular change. I still think it's justified, but maybe I will look at undoing it. Do you think +1 gem cost would be more acceptable?


I don't understand- they seem to fly just fine.

That's true, but the fortune telling is virtually useless for their traditional imprisoned bless role, while in theory making alternative strategies more viable.

Mainly, because I think she needs it more (rainbows get a bunch of extra research from magic picks). Also, it doesn't seem a goddess of knowledge should necessarily be less good at research than an uppity human sage.

I'll admit, he is not horrible without the gems for some nations. But that is purely due to happenstances that they lack those paths, I was hoping to make him more an option for other nations.

Indeed, I think they are very cool myself, which is why I'd like to feel like finding them is a real benefit.

Not exactly, but they certainly make Man's other troops look bad. Keep in mind CB is not mostly about nation balance, it's about option balance. I could look again at making the other stuff cheaper instead, but keep in mind other people have complained about troops being arbitrarily cheaper in Cb (I like to keep to rules like spear = -1 gold). It's easier to increase cost for elite troops since it's vague exactly how how much bonus stats are worth gold wise.

That seems a reasonable change.

I am curious though, you said a few changes in CB unbalance things a lot, which of these do you think do that? Most seem like rather niche things (like national spells), thematic complaints, or even just additional change requests CB hasn't made.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Yes I do. Ladies of love, lords of rebirth in particular.
Yes it's annoying as in not fun and that's not good in a game. You need leaders to just ferry troops around. Making them expensive isn't really a good option. It doesn't encourage nationals in my book. As I said, I would pay for a 60 gold indie leader if I can recruit a mage. I think the move is unneeded and without any good effect. It'll cost about 10 gold on first turns and that's about it. It also has very little effect for nations whose mages have good leadership.
Yes I still don't use it. It might be useful to go for Cosntruction rather than Evoc in order to get acid bolts earlier (through item).
It should be disposable/weaker in order to be worth the risk for summoning him. I can't think of many cases when I'd want to summon it whatever the cost right now.
If it's great, why did it need a boost? Why should water mages be able to cast something that becomes more powerful than what Earth or Fire mages can cast at the same level?
No, I don't. But having it at level 2 seems a bit too early. If it targets mages or archers, it can be nasty.
Leaves me unconvinced. Augmenting Orb lightning range would make it better without making lightning bolt less reliable against strong humans.
Do they have to have it cheap because they're the most likely to use it?
Maybe 6 would be ok IF the troops got a boost.
Yes, indie ehteral knights. Very hard to balance/evaluate because you see them very very rarely.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

LDI, the trick with the staff of corrosion is to have low level water mages, not full-on acid capable mages use it. So your high level guy forges them, then your low level guys who have 1W and can cast Quickness use them to cast 2x acid bolts / turn. So it is more valuable that its easier to access now.

Basically I like all the changes in the latest round of CBM. I especially like that titans are cheaper since basically no one takes them. The gem bonuses are a nice touch - might need some balancing but overall good. One points LDI brings up intrigued me tho:

Indy commanders cost more? I hadnt noticed but I agree with LDI that this should not be the case. As the now-quite-old indy commander mapmove 1 debacle showed us: you cannot fix the national commander problem by messing with indy commanders. Indy commanders ARE the workaround to the game flaw of fort mage turns being so ridiculously valuable. Please dont nerf them or increase thier costs.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

FYI, the titan researcher is only availabe to all Arcos, MA Pyth, and EA Ermor, who can easily have other priorities. ATM its just another viable option.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

That's my point. Boosting umbrals again only makes this worse.

The fact you only get one doesn't make that much difference to LA Aggy for instance (which is plenty strong) - they're harder to mass but they're so cheap for how good they are that using your resources to do other stuff becomes a bit pointless. By moving them up in research it's much harder to rush to them and the hope is that it encourages other options. Now I personally think the other options need a boost, which is the whole point. With vanilla umbrals you hardly want to try anything else.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Mostly one change: umbrals. Without the change I will gladly play EA Agartha, with it I will not touch them, so it ruins an entire nation.
Also horrors. I don't think Bogarus needs them that much, and it boosts other nations without need.
I also admit that CBM needs rethinking a lot of things I learnt the hard way, and I should work more to learn it. It is not bad but makes me unhappy when I realise too late something was changed that I hadn't expected.

I used them with a lady of love who was quite efficient with them. A frost/fire brand + shield would have been stronger. They were still useful in expanding.

If you want to get access to acid, instead of researching evocation you now research construction. I think at Cons 4 with a lower gem price it'd be better than Cons 2 with same price.

I think they only attack blood mages? Which can restrict the risk a lot.

That's a mostly thematic complaint. To me horrors are yet another stuff from beyond the world like R'lyeh are. I don't understand why russian-like people would use these, particularly when they have tons of national summons. I feel they shouldn't have to use horrors. That's not so much a balance issue as something I feel unthematic.

I don't say it is greatly unbalanced. I just love them personally.

Yes.

If I mass some of them and tell them to attack rearmost they never will unless I put some other flier in the group. They just crawl forward on the battlefield like they were turtles.

Maybe but if you have to choose between her and the human sage, why would you pick the sage?

I don't think the cost change makes much of a difference with regard to other troops. Spearmen sole use was they were 'fast'. Now axe and longspears are fast too. Unless I need mobility though, I still won't buy them over tower guards so the cost of tower guards/defenders doesn't do much to increase the value of the other units.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Heh, well that's a little deceptive to talk about CB unbalancing as much as helps, when the main problems only effect four out of 70+ nations (and one of them a thematic issue).

I'm really not sure what to make of your Bogarus/horror complaint, as your idea of theme seems to run directly counter to Illwinter's here. That said, on consideration I will probably make call lesser horror research level 2 instead of 1.

The issue is not if they can be used, it's if there is always a better option or not. As far as I can see (possibly even in CB) you would almost always rather an eye shield and any random weapon than the gloves.

I don't think that's the case- the staves are at best a compliment to normal acid mages. It's like saying what's the point of recruiting more than one mage to cast acid bolt, more is always better (and there is generally a much harder limit on how many staves you can do than mages).

Which is not to say I'm particularly opposed to lowering the price. But if I did it would probably be because they weren't get used much as is.

Not always. It's not entirely clear what the formula is for who they go after, but I think they often hunt people high in the HoF.

Um, OK, not seeing the problem- you like them, they are cheaper, not greatly unbalanced. ;)

Very odd, I'll try testing it myself. I don't think I will bump them back up in cost even if the problem is fixable though.

The same reason anyone chooses a rainbow, for diversity, path combos and site searches. And besides that, pretenders only available to a few nations generally have to be a little better than ones available to almost everyone, or they will see almost no use.


I pretty much agree, I'm not very happy with how Man's troops stand (in either era). Not that I am any more happy with how they are base.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

After more testing, the problem is not Zmey, but fliers with a 'fire' order. Instead of jumping/flying where they could shoot, they crawl to that point. I reproduced with cockatrices ordered to fire: They moved twice before spitting. Zmeys do the same. This could be fixed by giving more AP but it would be broken since storms should cripple their movement :(. Augmenting the range of the breath weapons could mitigate the effect.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Somewhere or other, there is a whole other thread on the Zmey issue.

In my tests - they never fired - they always flew and engaged hand to hand.

there were some very good posts made about flying archers - someone speciically quoting caelum - but I do not remember the results of the conversation.

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As for boosts to Agartha / Yomi - maybe QM would consider my changes?

But as for umbral I really think you need to return it to vanilla and then worry about how else to boost agartha.

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As for bogarus... horrors being unthematic.. are you kidding?
Read the text on Baba Yaga... plus you have a whole series of strange creatures out of folklore...

Plus the race was inspired by russia - with Rasputin, mystics, secret societies....

Plust starets are one of the few mages innately able to summon/call horrors... Hell yes!

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

Reading this conversation, this is my opinion:

Put the Umbral back at conj 5 (perhaps increase path req to D2E1 so you are dependant on boosters to mass them?)

Keep Call Horror at Blood 1. This opens for a different form of expansion strat with some nations without being overpowered. Exactly what CBM is about I´d say.

Give the Ancient one a long spear.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5
 

giving the agarthans non parryable boulders was nice -
Giving the agarthan long spears might help.. but clubs + Aoe1 nets would help more.