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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
AC and AN are Astral Corruption and Arcane Nexus, if I read it correctly.
Gem generators (or more accurately Clams) lead to Wishes, which are the other path to tons of uber SCs. If just you removed Tartarians, everyone who could would just try hard for giant clam factories and wish for Seraphs or whatever they wanted. |
Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
Getting rid of tarts and clams is great.. I'm playing in the aforementioned Bloodless game and it is really interesting planning long term with those things taken away.. you really have to think about more innovative late game tactics, and there isn't a mad research rush for artifacts - take away need for chalice for tarts or Sceptre of Dark regency to boost death hugely and the major impetus is gone. Sure there are useful things, but they aren't generally game breakers
Hopefully I survive to the end game, should be fascinating |
Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
Gen generator are bigger game winners than Tartarians.
I just finished a game where I had 400 clams and blood stones, which led to me wishing for gems 6 times a turn, which is about 800 free gems. That was 3 times more than what the score graphs showed. Those 6 wishes enabled me 150 free death gems which I used to summon about 10 tartarians a turn. Gem generators are VERY fearsome!!! Not having clams means wishing is gonna be a lot harder, there most likely won't be any gem wishes, since you'll be saving those precious astral gems for a Seraph or Chayot or ??? something. And as Dragar pointed out it takes away the rush for sceptre and chalice mostly, as there isn't so much a need for them than. |
Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
I agree 100% with Executor. I have the misfortune to currently be stuck in 3 (well now 2) endgames. Its sad how similar they are - clamming, blood stones, etc with all the micro that entails. I spend more time rounding up gems than I do planning battles...uggh...its just not fun.
I will only join games without gem generators going forward. I don't mind Tarts as much, since they do help nations without decent national summons and open up some fun magic path combos that allow for creative scripting. They certainly don't make anyone invincible - i just lost 2 to the AIs 800HP Kraken in one game. :( But they do give a pretty big edge to whoever gets the Chalice. That said, the more I play, the more I realize that just finding certain sites early on can pretty much determine who wins amongst competitive players. I am starting to wonder whether no independent mages or OP sites like Steel Ovens should also be a part of a balanced game, though that would take away a lot of the fun of site searching. |
Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
Can't you set the map so no rare sites are used?
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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
The only problem with killing gem generators is the earth boost of bloodstones is worth keeping. Other than that I'm all for wiping out gem generators in all games I play - they are too powerful in the end game so most successful players will use it, and everyone will spend hours and hours of boring micro. Doing so would reduce mass tart creation anyway, so there wouldn't be so much of a need to ban them too. We'll end up with a lot more variety in the end game
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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
Dragar, I agree with your previous post; getting rid of both gem generators & tarts would make for better and more interesting end-games.
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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
Tomb Oracle
(for Raiding/PD killing) Fire-Brand/Charcoal Shield and Frost-Brand/Demon Whip Dragon Helm Copper Plate Boots of Flying Luck Pendant Amulet of Antimagic script Diving Blessing (E9N4, hopefully), Summon Earthpower, Invulnerability, attack 100% all resistances, no equipment over Const4 (so you can get these guys out quick and then focus on other schools of magic), uses a spread of gems so no bottlenecks (and especially trying to use the generally useless fire gems) or (for SC killing) replace Boots of Flying with Boots of Quickness replace Amulet of Antimagic with Fire Pearl replace weapons with something appropriate, like Flambeau for undead, ect. |
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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
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I once thought about a solution regarding micromanagement: let any gems generated by commander himself be immoverable. Maybe we can even make all equipped gems fixed, like those carried by mercenary. Blood slaves should always be sent to treasury directly, and you should be able to give commanders gems without a local lab. But I suspect that can not be done without rewriting the whole game. |
Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
That's an excellent idea for the gem generators! Then they could no longer feed into the production of the same item, or into wishes. (Maybe wishing for gems needs a nerf too, possibly crank up the cost of Wish so it's no longer economical to wish for gems.)
But if you don't allow unloading for all gems, regardless of the source, then the user can't easily undo a click error where he puts gems on the wrong guy, and you can't load gems onto scouts or different-path commanders to supply armies in the field. So I think you're right that it would be a significant change in the implementation. |
Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
Ah yes the Pool buttons.
Seven of them mean "please put all the gems of that type in the lab" One of them means "please kill all my 'Returning/Vortex' scripted guys" |
Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
I wish there was a ctrl+z command as for blood slaves to transfer gems and if you could redo the damage you've potentially done by achemising the wrong gems without redoing the whole turn.
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Hmm... too good dream to be real. |
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And this solution is worse than useless. You equip the commander with gems he didn't generate when he needs to cast the specific spell. You equip commander with Clam/Fetish to generate gems for other commanders. Your idea will remove gems from the former, but not from latter. Making it other way around would be better, but also not ideal, as you could add or remove gem-producing item (with or without changing commander's purpose). A possible solution could be to allow to mark commanders somehow so their gems won't be pooled - but THIS would require rewriting main files... |
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You should also remember that there are MUCH more commanders than provinces, so it can be more resource-consuming to implement similar procedure here... |
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We all know there is so many micromanagement issues here and there, and our beloved game is hitting its limits. After all, we are all just once awhile dreaming about a new world. Hmmm.. its time now to stop hijacking the topic. |
Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
A Medusa is my first choice.
Seraphs are a close second. |
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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
They are a national spell for kailasa/bandar/patala. Or you can wish for them (but not really worth it IMO).
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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
Thanks. Is there any post where we have listed all these main SC and how to summon them?
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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
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Soul vortex will allow a commander to drain more than his max life, is how it is doubling the hp. |
Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
Troll bodyguards.
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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
Damn, neat trick Chris
I've got a game where that will be perfect. |
Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
Actually , Ice Devils suck. They are the worst of the blood summons, and still cost a lot (88 slaves). they are rarely even worth the trouble.
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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
It's a matter of opinion. I really like them. They are only 88 slaves, they can quicken themselves, and they have great stats. And you only need level 6 in research to summon them. Now that you're not making clams any more, spend 5W gems on Wolven Winter, targeting the province you're moving into, and put that Cold Power to work.
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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
What is the best build for an Ice devil? I tend to summon them when I get impatient for the Devils/Heliophagii, but I have never been impressed with them. Are they a worthwhile thug/SC for underwater applications?
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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
Do they also get increased prot in the cold ala niefs? If not, they should.
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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
@Sombre: On the unit stats, it looks like Cold Power just gives + to Str, Att, Def, AP in Cold provinces. But Prot is unexpectedly higher (like Base=15, Cold3 prov, Prot=21), so I think it gets a bonus too. Cold Power 2 (Nycafor, Oriax) gives +6 Str, Att, Def, AP in Cold3. All the Ice Devils look like they get +6 Prot in Cold3, even if they only have Cold Power 1.
@FAJ: It depends on which one you get, and who you're fighting. I just pulled up a couple of games, and I've got a bunch of Ice Devils with 3 or 4 stars (sadly they can't get heroic abilities): MA Mict game: Bifrons (S2W3): Fire Brand, Vine Shield, Starshine Cap, Hydra Armor, Ring of Fire, Ammy of Resilience Cimejes (W3): Fire Brand, Vine Shield, Horror Helm. Hydra Armor, Winged Shoes, Luck Pendant, Ammy of Resilience Marverni game: Gaap (W2, berserks): Frost Brand, Lucky Coin, Spirit Helm, Hydra Armor, Winged Shoes, Ring of Tamed Lightning, Antimagic Ammy MA Aby game: Nycafor (W3, Icicle Fists): Horror Helm, Rainbow Armor, Messenger Boots, Regen Ring, Antimagic Ammy |
Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
Hint for Ice Devils: Don't use items that grant Stoneskin without thinking very carefully about the potential drawbacks.
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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
Yeah there's an #iceprot value which niefs use - adds prot directly based on cold scale. I just wondered if ice demons have it - clearly they do.
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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
Thanks! I did not know about that. But looking on the wiki, there it is! Nycafor has +4, the rest have +3 (like a Niefel Jarl).
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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
I still think the Ice Devils should have Chill up in the Neifel range. It's always seemed strange to me that the the giants should be so much colder than much more powerful supernatural cold beings.
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Would using invunerability on them have the same sort of drawbacks? In one game I am playing, I lucked into a robe of invunerability, so I just threw it on an ice devil. Would it be better placed on another blood summon SC/thug? |
Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
he's referring to the side effect of stoneskin - knocking down the cold invuln. And with a chill effect you'd be nuking yourseflf.
Now.. if they only had maintenance... |
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The ice devil with the hell sword and the one with the frost brand can probably be left with their base weapon. |
Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
Any of the four-armed guys like Rudras.
Throw on both the Axes of Rulership and the Harvest Blade. Laugh as you turn enemy SC's into limbless torsos. ;) |
Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
I tried making a niefel jarl SC early game, frost brand, vine shield, horned helmet, ethereal robe, boots of the messenger, lucky pendant, ring of regeneration.
It was pretty much impossible for the AI to kill early game, but against any decent sized army, the jarl just ran away after the first few rounds even though he was at full or almost full hp. Why? No undead/fear on the field. Scripted him to cast quicken and mirror image too. |
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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
No, i sent him out alone. I thought SC were supposed to take on entire armies alone?
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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
My new favorite is this:
GoR:ed or possessed seige golem with stymphalian wings. Flying, trampling, mindless (can't be mind hunted etc), fear, all resistances to boot (this is a big big deal) , 0 enc, 24 base protection (much more with the armor), turn 1 attacker (hard to counter with any mage or teleporting thug that needs a turn or more to buff) Rest of the slots (head, feet, 2 misc) are optional depending on situation, but I generally put something that grants an extra attack (stone bird, serpent etc) to counter other large thugs. But it doesn't rally need anything but the wings to kick ***. The relative effectiveness to cost decreases with more equipment, better to field more of them instead. The beauty is in the cheapness, as ma or la Ulm you can easily field dozens, and they can take any pd or small army. Plus they can fly ahead of an army to break the walls of a castle. Perfect to combine with almost any battlefield effect as they are immune to most, fatigue spells, acid, all elemental damage, destruction, iron bane etc. Then we have possessed storm demons for LA ulm, now those kick serious ***. |
Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
Of course, shatter and opposition are a nice counter for this tactic. e3 and s3. But they have low range. Your golem has only 12 mr. But it is a nice tactic. If you do not have earth or astral, it is going to be hard to beat.
Actually, because you only need to go up the constr research tree, it is a superb tactic. |
Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
But why are they retreating? They are not taking much damage, and am regenerating it anyway.
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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
Each turn a squad under 5 men takes damage it must make a morale check. It is in the manual. Read it.
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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
Do niefel jarls have high morale? Because single units get to take morale checks every turn. Though I have never heard of a niefel jarl retreating like that before. Maybe the enemy have the dark skies global?
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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
Well the only way for a niefel jarl to get berserk by himself is to wear the fenris/berserker pelt i think...
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Re: Your Top 10 Super Combatant Builds
Or get a n9+ bless.
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