Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod (UWGIM) v0.83
 

Wouldn't it be possible to add a new commander to EA Atlantis that was a Coral Priest copy? I realize this takes a unit ID number away from modders, but there's quite a few of those...

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod (UWGIM) v0.83
 

Other notes that I have after doing some more testing with various combinations of CBM 1.6 and this mod:

EA R'lyeh loses their slave troll recruits with this mod. Now personally, I didn't even know that CBM gave them slave trolls, but there you have it.

with EA Atlantis, CBM gives Living Pillars 12 MR. Enabling UWGIM lowers that to 10 :(

It really would be nice to get the Coral Priests back at perhaps UW-only castles as Squirreloid mentioned. It would give a certain reason to spam castles underwater. Also, the Coral Priest is the only worthwhile commander Atlantis can get for under 200 gold.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

Alright, new version.

This version is fully compactible with the UW changes in CBM 1.6, so no nations should loose boosts because this mod is enabled.

Other changes include:
- "Manual of Water Breathing" and "Troll King's Goblet" made con4 items due to concerns of nature being better for UW access than water.
- "Traverse the Seas" spell made easier to cast
- Troll Ambassador alchemy bug fixed.
- Improved the description on the Ambassador spell
- Increase to KoTR resource cost (to 35 rcost)
- Increased price for the Queens (40 water gems)
- Changed EA Oceania starting gem income to W3N2S1 (from W4N2), should make diversifying easier (it was also odd that site called "Palace of Pearls" gave no pearls).
- Changed EA R'lyeh PD into amphibious units.


If no sudden bugs emerge, this version should be pretty final. I have some ideas for additional improvements, but I'll wait for feedback on how this one works before going for them. If this mod already makes UW nations playable, my work is done (there's no point in messing with vanilla just for the sake of it).

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

I noticed just recently but land nations are not able to build castles underwater. This is really a bummer since without Kelp Fortresses there might not be really many castles to take. In any case it still encourages ignoring the uw nations for the first half of the game.

Also, what is the advantage of a RoWB over a sea kings goblet? Both cost the same (And seriously who would attack an uw nation before he has const-4?).

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

I know, but unfortunately that's not moddable. Well, it's not like you could recruit anything new.

I assume that you Manual of Water Breathing? In the previous version, MoWB was con 2 while SKG was con 6. This sort of made nature better for UW access than water (with the prevelance of indy N shamans). Now the option is there (if you don't have W mages, for example), but you should thematically use water UW breathing items over nature equivalents.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

This looks great, Burnsaber. I always like to see underwater getting attention.

Speaking of water and construction items, what does everyone think of adding a Const 6 Forgeable item that only needed water paths (W4, maybe? Allowing you to build an aquatic Nation without access to air, in other words), and allowed aquatic units (commanders only would be fine) to breathe on land?

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

Er...you mean like the modified Amulet of the Fish (Con 4 in UWGIM?)

:confused:

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

Oh, I must have missed that...anyway, no. I'd like the Amulet of the Fish to stay the same, actually. I think it's a good item to have in the game as a lesser magic forging, for those who can take advantage of it, although some thought might perhaps be put into rebalancing it, I haven't looked at the Amulet of the Fish in a while.

I'd rather see a water-only item be more difficult to forge, to keep any possible issues with balance under control.

By the way, is it possible to add blood magic sites to underwater provinces? I think it should be...but I can't verify it.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

The mod makes the fish ammy W only.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

That's what I'm disagreeing with, yes.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

Can you name a water nation with A access?

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

EA Oceania with this mod

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

Yeah, every single one, via their Pretender.

Since when should a single path item be as cheap to forge as a dual path item? Giving the ability to create an alternative item that works the same as an Amulet of the Fish, with water only, is enough. I don't see any good reason why it should replace the Amulet of the Fish, or be easier to create.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

wait you want to just make an item that does the same as ammy of the fish, but is w only? so why would you ever build the AotF?

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

Being forced to take A on your pretender just to get out of the water is just lame. Its not like people are that scared of Mind Lords and Triton kings as thugs or whatever anyway, so it seems like a trivial "downside" compared to a significant upside.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

Quick bug report: the "new" EA R'lyeh is still in MA, you forgot to switch #era 2 to #era 1;)

Beside that,great work! I'll be testing it in a couple of games in the next days, and I'll report anything I find.

Regarding underwater fortresses, while the common nature fort site almost made underwater fort building redundant, especially with high magic site settings, it actually gave a chance to land nations to secure a water foothold.
This is just an idea that springed to my mind right now, but perhaps you could consider letting all land nations build an underwater fort? Make it one of the very expensive ones; it won't give national units anyway, I think; but it still will be useful as a hiding place and as a resource/supply centre. After all if humans get to magically breathe underwater, what's stopping them from building an outpost while they're at it:D

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

I don't quite understand the problem. This mod makes the items that confer water breathing cheaper, and it only stands to reason that it would make the Amulet of the Fish cheaper. The only way to make that happen is to make the Amulet single-path.

There are only a few nations that it actually affects, too. EA R'lyeh, which needs the boost; EA Oceania, which could use the reduced price; and MA Oceania(as essentially a water booster).

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

He just said that fort modding is impossible at the moment. Also, EA Ryleh is MA Ryleh in order to give it land recruits. Its a modding workaround since he can't just add new ones for EA on land.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.9
 

Err. Right. :doh:

I uploaded a quickfix version 0.91.


Once again, not moddable. In case we still need to boost the levels of UW access, I have some ideas. Note that I'm keeping these in reserve, I'll only implement them if they are really needed.:

1) Give all units that don't breathe poor ambhibian (Bane Lords + many other undead, elementals, Vinemen, and so forth).
2) New easy nature summon, "Kelpmen", who get stronger in UW.
3) A spell that builds a UW fort, but is only castable from land.
4) Turbocharge UW access by making the breathing items uber-easy to forge (I'm talking about making them level 0 and 1 cost for all of them).

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

Ok, I've read up on the AOTF, and I think it should be a lesser magical item, rather than a greater item. I still think the Air/Water requirement should be maintained.

What I'm suggesting is that AOTF be less expensive in terms of path level and research "cost", while an additional item exists that allows the use of Water only, to also get units on land, but at a higher cost in path level and research.

In other words, the AOTF would be lesser (2 Const), but still require A1W1, while the ??? water only item would be greater (4 Const), and require W4.

That would make AOTF an opportunistic forging, which means if you can make it, and you need it, great, while still keeping a balance present, in terms of aquatic units having serious difficulty achieving land.

I happen to like that aspect of the game. I'm in favor of maintaining it, since it keeps the oceans mysterious and threatening to land-dwellers, since on land you never really see what's going on down there, while at the same time making aquatic Nations entirely different from land or amphibious Nations.

When a powerful unit from the sea manages to climb onto the shore, and starts wreaking havoc, it's an extraordinary event. I don't mind if it happens more often than it currently does--and I don't mind if it should happen more often--but I don't want the status quo to be entirely shattered.

I happen to believe the Devs had a purpose in doing things the way they did them, and even though their understanding of balancing apparently just isn't complete in terms of gameplay, the way they've set things up has created an ambiance in the game that I think is important, even vital.

I'm all for modding the hell out of the game, 9 ways from Sunday, but I still want the spirit of the game as it comes out of the box to be preserved, and I really feel that this is a piece of that, however small.

Aquatic Nations, after all, already have their own set of advantages. Making land easy to get to just erodes away at the whole idea of playing an aquatic Nation. With the possible exception of Hinnom, I don't believe there's a single EA Nation that's more powerful than Oceania, except for the fact that they're almost entirely aquatic. They possess the single best Sacred recruitables in the game, pound for pound, along with all their other advantages. Give them the ability to forge endless cheap Amulets of the Fish, without requiring air magic, and I really believe it could break their balance, giving them the potential to turn into another Hinnom.

Maybe not as bad, but still unbalanced, and potentially very bad. Imagine self-healing heavily blessed sacred calvalry commanders with magic weapons that can strike at any water or coastal area almost at will, and then retreat to near-complete safety.


But maybe I'm wrong. How about some actual arguments against what I'm espousing? Why should we have a single do-everything item, when we have the option of diversification, each element of which represents different strategic choices for the player to make? What are the benefits? What's wrong with keeping the Amulet of the Fish as-is? Other than as a Greater magical item, which I'm absolutely against. It's quite thematic at the very least, and I require deeper reasons as to why this area of the game should be greatly simplified, when it could be corrected without what I consider overtly handwavey simplification.

For that matter, you could add an even cheaper (as far as paths and research go) forgeable item-a helmet for instance-that did exactly what the Amulet of the Fish does, that required Earth 1, Air 1, Water 1, and represented a sortof reverse diving helmet. Make it a minor (Const 0) item that costs 5 Earth gems, and it will make Earth gems more interesting for aquatic Nations.

Maybe you could even add an item that requires Nature 2, Water 2. Armour maybe, akin to the Shambler skin. It could compete with the AOTF in the lesser forgeable item category, and cost 5 Nature and 5 Water gems. That would make it an option for Oceania, allowing them a more expensive but easier to reach option to get on land a little earlier, without breaking balance.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

Not possible with the modding tools we got. Aquatic troops are stuck in the seas.

Actually, that's the very thing I'm trying to fix - land and sea is just way too much apart. Why? Think of it this way. The UW nations aren't really playing the game, instead they are stuck into this "mini-game" of UW dominance. It doesn't really matter how this "mini-game" plays out, since the winning player is 95% of the time, decided on land.

Land players can enter the mini-game, but it's really really difficult and usually really not worth the bother. The players in the mini-game can try to get to the real game on land, but none of the sea nations can really compare or manage any kind land dominance, they are just too handicapped. (the exception of MA/LA R'lyeh, though)

Besides, all the fun of the MP comes from interacting with players. What's the point of making it nigh-impossible to interact with some players?

That's a good thematic standpoint, but this is a gameplay improvement mod. I want to keep things as close to vanilla as possible, but there just has to be some sacrfices.

I admit that KO and JK are really bigger men than I am, and that dom3 is a masterpiece of genius minds. But they are just men, not gods. They can make mistakes. AotF as A1W1 is one of them. I'll explain it more in detail below this post.

:re:

EA Oceania, another Hinnom? Seriously?

No really, I mean are you really serious? Are you 100% sure that you want to stand behind that statement?

I just want to be sure before I post my intese rant about how EA Oceania sucks major balls. I'd also like you to specify if you are talking about UWGIM version of EA Oceania, or the vanilla one. (trust me, big difference)

You can't bring KotD's to land. There is no way to do that.

1) Air gems are really rare find underwater. This is bad, because it makes your ability to forge this item base on dumb luck (=very bad gameplay element). I've often had over 12 water provinces with 0 air gem income. Astral is also a rare find, which makes alchemizing air gems really, really painful.
2) EA R'lyeh. The nation just has to have access to that item in order to have any chance in winning the game. Reguring you to spend valuable pretender points in taking air magic and then using even more valuable pretender turns to search air sites and to forge a ****ty items is just absurd. Note that you do all these ridicilious things just to act as any other nation, there is no real subjective benefit to you by doing these things.
3) The air reguirement is non-thematic. The amulet just creates a bubble of water around you. Why would you need air magic to do that?

I have tons of other reasons, but I really don't have the time to list them all.

Nothing you mention is actaully doable. I can't copy items (so basically, AotF is the only land breathing item, ever) and neither can I make a item that reguires three paths to forge.

Also, if you are really bothered about making AotF cost W1 to forge, you should likely try to argument in the CBM 1.6 thread, since it now does the exact same change (and is leagues above the popularity of this mod).

If you were talking about SP, you are free to alter your own version of the mod to keep the item as it is. As a fellow modder, that shouldn't prove difficult for you.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

I'm not talking about troops, I'm talking about commanders. I realize that troops are beyond our capabilities.

EA R'lyeh is broken, in terms of MP. Changing AOTF will help, a little, but isn't going to fix it.

The air requirement I can explain, thematically, about a dozen different ways. Do you prefer the air pressure theory, the chemical element theory, or the osmosis theory? Suffice to say that water can go stale over time, as the oxygen leaves it. The oxygen content in a given volume of water isn't unlimited, and can fluctuate greatly even in oceans and lakes. Considering that you've got a decent sized being breathing said oxygen, that amulet will quickly become a murder weapon unless something more substantial than a passing breeze is replenishing that oxygen.

Add to that concerns about maintaining the balance between water and air pressure.

EA Oceania only sucks because it's aquatic. There isn't another EA underwater Nation that can compete with it, if confined to the water only. It's crappy because land Nations exist, not out of any real fault of it's own. Whatever the state of the game happens to be in practice, in theory Knights of the Deep should be able to go on land with an AOTF. It doesn't happen, but I'm not satisfied that there's any real reasoning behind that decision. If an Ancient Kraken can do it, there's no good reason a KOTD shouldn't be able to.

As far as it never happening, there's probably a way to mod in a landform that still retains it's aquatic nature, thus allowing them to go on land, while still requiring the AOTF. Since this is a modding thread anyway, I don't see any reason the vanilla game should be the final say on what makes good balancing.

If AOTF is the only possibility, then sadly my argument is moot, and I might as well stop. Not much I can do about arbitrary modding restrictions, especially now that the Devs haven't been heard from in months. Considering such a restriction, then yes, the best thing left to us would be to remove the air requirement. It's certainly far from what I would consider ideal, however.

I know I can mod it in easily enough. The reason I'm debating it on the boards is because I want some discussion and some different viewpoints. CBM is great, but I don't consider it a very good environment for discussion.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

Do you really feel that 25 water gems per commander is a reasonable cost to spend getting onto land?

This is nonsense. Making the amulet of the fish doesn't make for easy land access for EA R'Lyeh and EA Oceania. It makes land access _possible_. Expecting players to use their pretender to forge a single amulet of the fish every turn for the entire game is single player thinking.

You clearly don't even know what the amulet of the fish does. It allows a single commander to go either above or below water. It does nothing for his troops, and EA Oceania's troops are aquatic only. Knights of the deep are aquatic, and are nothing more than a slightly better version of white centaurs, so they will never be a serious threat to land nations. MA Oceania's Trident Knights are already amphibious, so this certainly doesn't change anything there. EA Oceania can already forge amulets of the fish at A1W1, so they aren't affected in any serious way by this change.

All magic weapons do is make units better against ethereal troops. The basic magic weapon has _no_ other effect. Triton kings can't self-bless, and have terrible magic paths, so they aren't much more than thugs. Capricorns are already amphibious. Please remember that there are no gem generators in the game unless you happen to agree with the developers idea of proper balance.

As is, EA R'lyeh cannot forge them for its mindlords. Pretender forging is not sufficient for cheap items that need to go on hundreds of your aquatic mages.

Triton kings can already get A1. MA Oceania is already amphibious. Have you even bothered to look at the capabiliies of the nations that you claim would be affected by this? Or are you simply scared by the thought of change?

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

Hmm, I didn't know that.
I neither think it's the lack of access into the water that's a problem nor the lack of uw summons (so no to 1, 2, 4). Seriously you don't just start a war because you can but because you want to profit (and you'll certainly wait until you either have good summons, thugs or some powerful magic, I really see noone attacking an uw nation with const-0 gear and nationals and winning, if there is any balance). The problem is simply that after you have won the war (or invested into labs and temples in the course of your conquest) you risk loosing everything to the next best uw sneak attack (oceania?) without PD and castles - easier access actually makes this worse (because if you can tir can also).
So I'd suggest simply making the kelp forest spell reasonably cheap - not cheap and accesible enough to make it spammable, though. It's fine if it's castable uw only, since this requires you to hold a uw province for a couple of turns (instead of stealth take + instafort).

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

I don't have any problem with change. I want to know that it's change for the better. Are you afraid of asking questions? I'd rather be wrong than blind, quite frankly.

I am very familiar with what the AOTF does. Making it cheaper won't by itself fix EA Aboleths. The fact that it doesn't affect troops doesn't necessarily solve the problem of giving Nations that are nearly invulnerable at the start of the game, the ability to indiscriminately raid the surface.

Imagine just the possibility of a 10 Dominion Ancient Kraken with say 4 earth, 4 death, and 4 nature, that can raid from any shore, and then escape without any fear of retaliation. You're talking about shifting the dynamic of the whole game, where outlying shore provinces will need to be fortified. I'm not saying it's a wrong decision, but I think it deserves atleast some discussion.

Magic weapons in the early age? Are you at all familiar with the early age of the game? It's a free magical weapon on top of the attacks the unit already gets, on top of self healing, sacredness, and the fact that it's tough calvalry commander.

I was suggesting the nature/water item as an alternative to the amulet of the fish, to let Oceania get on land more easily than they already can--as a choice, for them and for any other Nation that can take advantage of the situation. Not as a replacement for the AOTF. I never said that it was, in any way.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

That wouldn't give it any capabilities that something with boots of flying or stealth doesn't already have.

If you don't need to fortify land provinces adjacent to water provinces because the underwater nations are so pathetic that they aren't a threat, then that's a serious balance problem.

Why are you worried about Trident Lords being turned into thugs by EA Oceania? MA Oceania has trident lords, EA does not. Triton kings don't turn into centaurs on land. EA Oceania has no centaur or mounted troops on land. Even then, they are essentially equivalent to centaur hierophants or cataphract commanders, and can't self-bless. You should really be worried about Pangaea, or even Ulm, where black lords are nearly as tough as Trident lords. Triton kings are nothing special in the EA. They have one less misc slot than every land based commander, and the are members of what is arguably the weakest nation in the entire game.

Magic weapons are only better than regular weapons if the opponent is ethereal or mistformed.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

Well, my biggest issue was having more possibilities than just the AOTF. If that's impossible, then there's really not a lot to argue about.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

Ah, I think I've found a difference between RoWB and Sea Kings Goblet.
You cannot rout with Sea Kings Goblet (that is if someone carrying it routs he's autokilled) - so always use RoWB for SCs.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

Would it be at all reasonable to make Asp Turtles commanders out of the box? There's precedent with the Kithaironic Lion summon, it would make Asp Turtles more attractive because you can actually get them out of the water with an Amulet of the Fish(!), and it would definitely give more options semi-late game for Underwater nations. It's not like they would be spammed, either. In that same level of Conj, you get Catoblepases(Catoblepi?), which are for many purposes way better.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

It's an interesting idea, kianduatha, but there already exists the Leviathan in the game, which is an undead amphibious version of the asp turtle. Making the asp turtle a commander would kind of overshadow the Leviathan in the game, I would think?

Aside from that, there are a host of other critters that could be added to the game, to make the later game more interesting, underwater.

Personally, I was very surprised not to see *any* crocodiles in the game. It seems like a giant saltwater croc would make for an excellent lategame summon, and we know they're amphibious. Crocodiles are one of the most important animals ever, in historical mythology, and they really deserve some place in the game.

For that matter, their are whales which don't appear anywhere in the game (Japanese myth gives us the Bake-kujira, according to Wikipedia, "a ghostly whale skeleton that drifts along the coastline", and which was accompanied by a host of strange and ominous birds, fish, and other creatures--sounds like a perfect lategame summon to me, and could maybe even be a commander?), as well as an enormous variety of prehistoric creatures, and plenty of strange beings from mythology as well.

I'm sold on the idea of the AOTF being water only (because we've been given no choice, really), but with units, we know for certain that they can be added, copied, and modified, in nearly infinite variety.

It seems to me that the asp turtle already fulfills a function in the game, rather admirably, and that the fault lies more with an underpopulated lategame ocean, with a lot of spaces left in it to fill, than it does with what we've already been given.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

You have a good point about the lack of pd, but (once again) it's one of those things I can't mod.

With all respect, that's quite hard. Very hard in fact. "Accessible", "cheap" and "not spammable" is a bit of a oxymoron and all those terms are subjective. Something can be unspammable in a small game, but be spammable in a large game. There is a good reason why "Wizard's Tower" and the like are so high in the research.

UW is so easily defendable that I really wouldn't mind there being a trick that land nations could use to take really firm hold in the seas. Besides, the sea player still has a chance to teleport in before the fort is build. But it's sort of moot point to discuss changes that might not get implemented at all.

(and the fort wouldn't be too useful for you anyway with the sucky recruits).

As for making the Asp Turtle a commander, that's very good idea. I'll probably make the leviathan a commander too, so that it won't be overshadowed by the Asp.

I should note there are disadvantages to making units into commanders, such as being able to be targetted by Mindhunt. I'd rather leave leviathans and Asp Turtles as is, fwiw. You can always GoR them if you want commanders, after all.

Edit: Things that might help UW nations

More amphibious summons castable underwater. Especially for W magic. W has lots of summons, but most of them are either land only or aquatic and UW only. Makes breaking onto land hard. Something in the Conj 2-4 range would be esp nice.

EA Atlantis needs its infantry to be less of a one-trick pony. Basically, it has 10 flavors of the same thing along an armor gradient. Some harpoon troops would help (LA Atlantis has them, so there's some thematic justification). Some troops with actually decent defense might also be nice - i think the best they manage now is like 11.

Is it possible to make a spell which transforms aquatic troops into an alternate amphibious form? I mean, I know you can define a new creature type that is a copy with the amphibious tag instead. But can you target normal troops en-masse with such a spell?

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

There already is something in Conj 2-4: the Sea Troll. It's just that Sea Trolls suck because they have no armor or weapons or defense or attack.

I guess you could make Kraken amphibious; but only if Sea King's Court also gets some trolls riding them.

I guess Coral Guards could stand to be a bit more useful; I'd feel pretty comfortable making Sharkskin armor 0 def 0 enc, Coral Cuirass 0 def 1 enc, and Coral Hauberk -1 def 2 enc. Even just pick one of those, and you'll have someone with 12 defense at least. I'd personally go for the coral changes, given that Coral Guards need something more than 1 to attack and defense to justify fully double the cost of normal Shamblers.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

Sea Trolls also cost cash in upkeep, unlike most summons, and a lot of cash at that. This makes them not very viable.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

Looking into things for EA Atlantis, I finally noticed what their coastal troop recruit is. If only I had realized it sooner in my multiplayer game. I am going to destroy R'lyeh so hard with these. High attack, high defense, decent protection, shield, high magic resist, barbs to deal with Lobo Guards, decent encumbrance. I think once I get some coastal castles up I'm never recruiting anything else again unless I need fire/cold immunity. Combine that with Atlantis being able to actually summon Kydnides with the Shamans, I think we're set for them.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

That only helps if you can get *out* of the water.

In EA that's really hard, especially when Oceania will kill you if you do anything other than prepare to fight them.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

Not under this mod; Research Alt-2 and Oceania's Knights of the Deep are no longer a problem. Boil is actually as far as I know entirely created for EA Atlantis to deal with those pesky Knights--it's a 100 precision aoe 1 spell that does 8+AN damage, so it goes through all their defenses like butter.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

Yes, Earth Meld + Boil = lots of dead KotD. Of course, you need to send a bunch of BKs to the front lines to make extensive use of this.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

Hrm, resurrection time I suppose.

Wouldn't it make sense to give Ichtycentaurs and Trident Knights hoof attacks? You know, like the centaurs they're based off of?

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

I suppose. I was under the impression that they get hoof attack on land. Impact weapons would likely suck underwater so I can sort of understand why they don't have it.

I guess the question boils down to if they need it. I was under the impression that ichtycentaurs are good troops. Sure, they have trouble dealing damage, but they shouldn't be perfect. MA Oceanian's problem is not in its troops, but it's mages.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

Right now they don't get hoof attacks on land. You have a point, though, that ichtycentaurs are already the best thing going for Oceania troop-wise, and boosting them might only decrease diversity. Trident Knights definitely should get the 2nd attack, at least. Maybe then they could kill something before fatiguing out.

As I understand it, MA Oceania suffers from having no real way to deal damage without mage support(minus the first strike on ichtycentaurs), and their mages have terrible, terrible paths for dealing damage(max 2W4N1E1A pre-booster? You can't do anything with that).

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

Well you can cast bone melter, but that's about it otherwise.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

I support extra hoof attacks on land. It makes sense.

The real issue with MA Oceania will always remain their horrible mages (on land).

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

The most subtle fix to Capricorns that I can think of is giving them linked randoms. This would flat out make the 10% randoms amazing. 1 in 10 Capricorns is either 2A, 2E(so really 3E), 4W(where W starts to get fun), or 5N(boosterless Mother Oak). Maybe boost it to a 15% random, too--but either way, you would get actual non-useless mages at least some of the time.

Also, even with a hoof attack Trident Knights probably need another point of attack skill.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

Yeah but you can't mod linked randoms.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

Ugh. Right. I should've known that. Unfortunately, you'd need to bump the second random up to about 50% to get the same effectiveness(1 in 10 Capricorns actually being useful for something)

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

In UWGIM, Oceania has the "Call Selkie" (A3W2N1 seducing mage) spell in conj4 and recruitable Daughter of Selkie 1A1W (110% A/E/W/N) random mage in coastal forts.

I think that should help in the magic department. I'll give ichtycentaurs hoof atttack on land in the next version.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

I think part of the problem is all these E1 randoms don't translate into enough E to do anything useful - like make boots and therefore hammers!

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

So after finishing a MP game as EA Atlantis with this mod, I can't help but feel like I'm playing a completely different game than even CBM.

-Ride the Currents is amazing and makes you incredibly versatile as far as quickly organizing raids to entire coastlines. I could leave my Basalt Kings in my capital until I needed them, then zoom them out to deal with threats as they come. Think of yourself as coastal Eriu, but with a decent lategame.

-I spent a good chunk of water gems to make water-breathing items, oddly enough. If there was one thing to make underwater nations less obnoxious to play, it'd be giving them national mages(Mage of the Deep, mermage, slave mage) who can grant waterbreathing to troops.

-Coral Tribe Warriors are bogusly powerful. They give you the ability to simply crush R'lyeh because of their high base MR, Defense and repel(plus poison if they ever do land a hit). They even are fairly high damage(15 w/ poison). Especially in EA these guys can go toe-to-toe with almost any land nation. It was like having recruit-anywhere Assartuts, honestly. No bless and lower base damage, but they have a shield.

-Coral Tribe Shamans are amazing. I had twice as many of these guys as any other type of mage, and they let me shoot up the research ladder altogether faster than Atlantis has the right to. It really changed the nature of the game, though, as I actually ended up Astral and Nature heavy in the end. I was actually based off of my coastal forts, and my Basalt Kings were there just for support. I only created a few Mages of the Deep because I needed a token W4 guy to cast Maelstrom and Water Queens. This had the odd effect that I was a nature-heavy nation(Mmm, dragon master-ed Frost Drakes).

So basically my main force was from coastal forts and exclusively the Shamans and Coral Tribe Warriors, with Basalt Kings/Queens for supplementary raiding. If anything I had stronger infantry than most EA nations. The poison also basically makes you exceptionally dangerous to cavalry. Tir Na Nog for instance lost several Sidhe Lords by forgetting to script Resist Poison.

Methinks the Coral Tribe needs to be toned down some--as it is they become your military and magical backbone. I kept on trying to thug out my Basalt Kings, only to realize that they were better spent casting Legions of Steel, Strength of Giants and Quickening on these monsters. Suddenly they're 14 hp, 15 prot, 17 str, 15 att, 16 def murder machines(and that's before the 2-3 stars these guys usually get). Slap on Army of Lead(something you can easily 1st-round) and they're also 17 MR.

Re: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod v0.91 - Quickfix
 

Now I'm really sad the one game I played with UWGIM EA Atlantis involved a map in which getting onto land was virtually impossible for a water nation. (That and having to fight EA Oceania tooth and claw almost all game to stay alive, so resources to dedicate to landward expansion were non-existent).

They may seem like monsters (and they do seem perhaps a little much), but considering what troop and buffing options other nations have... it may be more that Atlantis's other troops are just so far below decent that these things really shined in comparison. Are they really better than buffed Ermorian principes?