Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

No they dont.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

It looks like they do. I ran a test where I hit a tart cyclops equipped with Weightless Scale and an Enchanted Shield with Armor of Achilles and the armor and shield were destroyed. Ran the same test with a Vanadrott with Lightweight Scale Mail and got the same result.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

SCs have one more important attribute: they're tough. In my experience you don't see many human mages out in the field during the late game. They're simply too fragile. If you run into a couple of castings of rain of stones or earthquake before you can buff there go your mages.

Demons make good late game troops because they've got the HP to take a hit and good enough MR that being hit with master enslave before you buff won't result in losing your army. But your opponent will have those, or a comparable unit, in addition to his SCs so it seems to me you'll come up short if you don't have SCs of your own.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

I'm not quibbling that they don't destroy a lot of armors. They do. There are more exceptions than max said, is all I'm alluding to.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

So why not state the exceptions?

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

Man still has combat evocations and decent troops (esp. with CBM, which makes it possible to mass cavalry). Also, Kinnaras are so frail that even as Bandar Log I often end up using Golems instead of them, so having Kinnaras is not much of an advantage. (Kinnaras can be effective raiders with less equipment, though)
Only Rudras and Devatas are really unique, and these are high in the research tree and expensive.
Perhaps Bandar Log are better than Man in the endgame even without the gem generators, but how about comparing them to some *good* nation? :)

Anyway, I hope that 'no gem generators' mod wont become an integrated part of CBM. :) After all, Oceania and Bandar Log (aka clammer nations) do not dominate all MA games, do they?

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

Updated first post.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

I think sticking to the current top two (map size and gem gens) plus possible rand scenarios is probably going to be the best plan, since I don't really like the theoretical "feel" of a lot of the optional listings, and I think getting as many people on-board with gem-gen elimination will be doing everyone a favor. I also don't think Forge is particularly egregious mm, so trying to hash down the global list would probably be difficult.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

I like reducing map size and RAND games, those will reduce MM and not really effect how fun the game is.

Gem generators, fine make them unique (not eliminate them totally) but EA & MA Oceania and MA Machaka need some serious boosting. Even with gem generators those nations are poor.

Banning astral corruption, arcane nexus, utter dark and burden of time have been around for some time and are ok with me, they spoil the endgame and create alot of MM.

I don't like banning the Forge.

Also, I would not join a MP game with the other options/nerfs in place.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

How does AN cause micromanagement?

Under Utterdark you just need to reclaim provinces you lose to shades, it's just like you are being raided.

I suppose BoT causes micro because you have to take items off your old mages before they croak, and you might have to double-check for Mute/Feeblemind when heading into battle.

I think these spells are good for hastening victory, and getting the endgame over with.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

I agree with vfb.

I think people who ban most globals are just being whiny because they haven't figured out how to deal with that global. I will not join a game that bans global spells. (I say this having gotten to my first end game in Water Total War, of course...)

Especially Burden of Time - I have no idea why this spell gets banned. Oh no, my opponent cast a global which effects me! Might as well complain you were being mindhunted/seeking arrowed/etc...

Edited to disassociate my comments from my agreement with vfb.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

Hey, I never said anyone is being whiny! :)

I think I'm pretty much on the record for saying AC is fun. I just love those doom horrors!

Utterdark/BoT can be pretty exciting too.

AN is kind of not-so-fun, especially if you get into 999-gem AN battles, where no-one is using their gems for .. uh.. fun stuff. But I still don't think it increases MM.

How come no-one has brought up Wish? Not being able to recruit anything anymore is also kind of not-so-fun.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

Related to latest comments in updated first post.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

If it's true that removing gem-gen items cripples some nations, then the solution seems pretty simple: Give those nations gem-gen summons. What little I know of modding suggests that the mechanics are there for water, earth and nature gems... can that be expanded to the other gem types?

Edit: Now I see that Fantomen beat me to this idea and has it in another thread... nothing to see here. Move along.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

In terms of Victory Conditions, cumulative victory points more or less guarantee that the game will end at worst at turn X, so they could be used more often. Although they only provide 1 cumulated point per year, so you need to control the VP province on the good turn (last winter or first spring?), they force games to end faster.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

Really? I thought it was once a turn. Man that sucks, it being once a year.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

Cumulative VPs just don't work. They are added only in the mid summer turn. So you are not rewarded for keeping it, just having it on one specific turn.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

Can gem gens made cursed and unaffected by forge bonus? Then increase the price?

So FF would generate like 1 gem every 4 turn on demons.
Say a Clam would cost say 15W10N (not 14 total with hammer), so it'd take 50 turns to pay for itself.
Blood Stone - increase cost to 15B15E.

Curse would make them destroyable.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

Burden of Time is problematic because it's very low research, cheap, and unable to be countered aside from a direct gem-war with a dispel (boots of youth and other anti-aging items don't work against it). It also works the turn it is put up, so it can do some nasty damage even if it is immediately dispelled, especially if the caster chain-casts it.

It's also in the "dispel or lose" category for certain nations, and the mechanic is uses isn't at all fun or interactive.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

Nope.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

I slightly disagree with the "don't work" but I agree they are flawed. If Illwinter could award them every month that would make a very valid change however. I doubt they will, but if they ever plan a patch, I don't think it would be too long to code and it would probably make this victory condition usable and popular.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

But does it contribute to significantly raise endgame MM?
I'm not looking at this from balance or fun angle, only to reduce MM.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

Dealing with lots of afflicted commanders increases MM for sure.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

Seriously, Zeldor's suggestion to get rid of hammers would save a ton of MM. In games with diplomacy/trading, everyone ends up with hammers anyway so the relative advantage is limited but the pain of having to swap hammers is limitless.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

I'll reiterate - hammers allow for much more varied strategies because its not just cost savings - its cost savings in particular gems. Say for gems that you don't have many of because you have few mages (pretender, non-nationals) with those paths and no native gem generation at your capitol in that type.

Basically, lack of hammers limits nations to their national magic types far more than at present, at which point certain nations get better relative to other nations because they have better inherent magic paths/gem generation.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

i understand your point, but don't agree that the benefits of hammers are worth the tradeoff in MM pain. true magic diversification will depend primarily on luck anyways, in terms of finding indies in paths you need and once they site search adequately, your gem income should be fine. while i agree hammers make it easier to forge items in non-national paths, i don't think they are so crucial strategically. further, removing hammers might actually help improve one aspect of game balance. for example, nations with recruitable thugs which are generally OP relative to human nations won't be able to kit out their thugs as prolifically, which might make these nations more vulnerable to human troops and thus help even the scales a bit.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

Most recruitable thugs are kitted out already to some extent - save a few thuggable spellcasters.

Good idea to remove hammers (including the uniques). Just remove Forge and the bonus sites too- generators might even stay.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

The problem with that is it doesn't fix the unlimited exponential increase.
Either you make them so costly that they don't pay off - supposing I expect the game to last 70 turns, I would hardly forge anything that pays of after 50 (*) turns after turn 20. And I will hardly forge any before that because I can't afford them. If I'm in an extremely large game that's unrealistic to be decided before turn 150 than clams ftw again. Unless you make their price dependent on the size or time of the game.

(*) but 15W10N pays of before 50 turns, because in late game each pearl is worth 2 gems. If you can wish quite literally because wishing for gems gives you 150 gems for 75 pearls.
If you can't, there's just 1000s of things to spend pearls on every turn, water gems are much less useful.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

i'm talking about the kind of gear that turns recruitables into human army wrecking machines - items that give awe, fear, luck, brands, shrouds on sacreds, etc.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

Why don't we consider who the winners and losers are here?

First of all, its been my impression that Astral, Death, Nature, and Earth are where most of the good gear is.

Rlyeh: winner (MA and LA especially)
Good Astral, Death, Earth access, good site searching for all 3, capitol S income. National mages can forge all astral boosters without empowering. Here's a nation which doesn't really need the boost... And aquatic, so it gets to bundle most elemental site searching into water gem useage anyway.

Ashdod: winner
Astral, Death, Earth, good site searching for all 3, has capitol income for S,D at least. Here's another nation that really doesn't need a boost. I imagine Hinnom/Gath are in similar boats?

MA Oceania: Loser (probably EA too, but not familiar)
Nature, but otherwise only really water (with small amounts of earth and air - they generally have to beg or trade for a hammer, or put earth on their pretender). Pretender is only real way to get access to anything else - low gem input will severely hamper Oceania's ability to diversify. (And since removing gem gens is definitely on the table... there goes clamming for Oceania to actually do anything in the endgame as well).

Basically, most of the winners are already really strong nations, and the losers are generally weak nations.

If you want to rebalance the game to make human nations stronger, you almost need to rebalance magical paths to make them more equal, or rebalance races so human nations tend to get more and stronger access to the good paths than non-human nations. Taking hammers away won't help nearly as much as you think.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

I am not very comfortable with the ban this, ban that and ban the other mentality that this thread is now full of, happens all the time with these sort of discussions.

Seems to always come down to nerf everything, especially if its good or popular.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

The topic of taking away hammers in this thread is really about reducing micro, not rebalancing.

I also think your logic is a bit weird. Taking away hammers has the greatest impact on a nation that does a lot of forging and that would previously have used a lot of hammers. Since you say astral, death, nature and earth get the best gear, nations with access to these strong paths would arguably lose out more than others with no hammers, because they're the ones doing the most forging. This seems particularly true of earth powers, who can forge a bunch of hammers rather than having to trade for them or take the points hit on their pretender build.

I also don't really see how hammers help nations that need to diversify more than those who are already have access to the stronger paths. You say it allows lesser amounts of gems in those off paths to be used more effectively, but since it equally allows S/D/N/E to be used more efficiently when they're your main gem income, which in terms of raw gems is going to be far more of an impact,... I don't get it. Clearly it does help forge that N booster to try and bootstrap into nature, but it helps an equal amount (proportionately) with an N powerhouse forging the best N gear.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

I'm assuming that, in general, the first instance of item X is more powerful/game changing/whatever than further instances of item X for your nation. Or to look at it another way, the improvement in performance of your nation improves at a decreasing rate with an increasing quantity of item X.

This is tautologically true sometimes - there can be only one of each artifact.

This is easily proveable other times. The first RoWizardry is amazing. The second one is still awesome, but not nearly as awesome because you can already pass the first around to cast the globals you need. I guarantee it is not the only item of that type.

I would argue it is true for every item though. Basically, the law of diminishing returns applies at some point, and that point isn't ridiculously far along. Ie, the first fully-equipped thug is better than the nth one for some n. He's better than the second because he gives you increased capability. The second lets you apply that capability multiple times or gives you new joint capability. But the third is more of the same, and so forth. Now, there are certainly benefits to having thugs work in parallel, but each additional one is less advantageous to you strategically than the one before it (especially since your opponent will probably develop a counter to whatever you're doing with it).

So taking hammers away from power nations has more impact in raw gems, but less strategic impact. (They can still do it, they just do it less... vs. they probably can't do it at all, or at all reasonably).

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

Well, at least one thing is quite sure that banning hammers will negatively affect earth nations (Ulm, Marverni, Yomi, Agartha, Vanheim, Machaka, Atlantis, out of Memory there is only Hinnom where a nerf would be good).

Maybe it would be better to just note down exactly where the most time is spent.
Taking the dwarven hammers if I understand it correctly the reason why you are considering them MM nightmare is that you have to collect them from 300 mages in 100 provinces?
That's a fact, but if you blame that on the hammers that's only a perspective.
Why not blame it on having to have 300 mages or a too large map?
I mean seriously, you have zero problems with managing your dwarven hammers if you set up a couple of forging provinces into which all your dedicated forgers go (and they are not used for generally spamming mages). The only problem is that the gold could have been spent on additional research centers and you loose some research turns moving around. And this is - I repeat myself I know - the really broken mechanic imo. Virtually every strategy game encourages you to organize your empire (like building cities in sensible locations or choosing the right amount of research and industry centers) while dominions punishes you for it.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

Hammers are not a part of MM problem. On reasonably sized maps without gem generators you will have 10-15 of them at most. If you don't earn enormous amounts of gems, you can't spend them on forging.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

They are a part of MM - simply because everyone must have then and everyone gets them and everyone uses them. You either screwed smth [trade? pretender design?] or are really pressed if you forge smth more expensive without hammer.

Micah is right though that removing hammers would spoil rituals-forging balance. And it would make some nations weaker for sure. Removing them would surely improve gameplay, but costs are too high.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

WraithLord asked for ways to reduce MM. Looking for, and transferring 10-15 hammers every turn is my definition of MM. In other words, it is not fun. My argument was not to ban them for balance. I just made a note that it might add some balance as a response to squirrelloids points. As for having forging centers, that doesn't usually work when you have variable paths and indies - certain path requirements will end up in remote locations etc.

I also don't like banning things, but the point of the game is to have fun, and i personally don't find swapping hammers every turn to be that enjoyable. Since usually everyone is doing the same thing, there is no relative advantage. Anyway, maybe w/o gem generators its not as bad.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

That's why I said a couple. :)
And sure you have to run around a bit, but that's my point it's not good to penalize players for moving their mages around.

True to a point, if they could just be accounted for and give you the forging bonus automatically...
Otoh hand it doesn't really take much time (<4min) if you go my route so I'd hardly find it justified to take them out.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

Gathering all your forgers in one or two places just to save on MM is a guaranteed way to get yourself in major trouble to stuff like lab fires or mass remote killing spells (flames from sky). With the former event putting the majority of your hammers and boosters out of commission for a turn, and the latter losing you said hammers and boosters. And domes won't help against a concentrated ritual attack, which is all the more likely to happen if you enemies notice your gathering all your important mages in one place.

Common sense says to have your forgers spread out more to avoid them becoming the lucrative target they become when gathered together. But the more spread out they are, the more MM increases. Hence the claim being made that banning Hammers will reduce MM. (and this is a thread about reducing MM after all)

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

Old wisdom from admins of many online world projects. The people placed in authority over game balance tend to come in two types. The adders, and the subtractors. Those who fix by building up the low ones, and those who fix by taking down the high ones. As long as you dont let one group get too out of control you are usually ok. Of course nor should you allow both groups unlimited control or you end up with everything equal in the middle which is boring. I am again amazed at how well the two-man crew of Illwinter did with that basic problem altho if you look at the history file you can kindof see that they have one of each. :)

But Im with you. Id rather see more options than less. As long as there is an in-game strategic response then Id be afraid to nerf for fear of creating a new imbalance in some other nation needing a new nerf.

Altho.. as long as its all mods and game setting choices then its just more options. No problem there.


Gandalf Parker
--
Some people NEED menus.
All options open with no menu list appears to them to be no options at all.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

It's usually bad to remove options, but that doesn't necessarily equate to removing or changing elements. You could quite well be increasing game options by removing a feature which distorts the game or prevents other features from being realised as intended.

In terms of this thread, the fact that some dominant strategies tend towards micromanagement can remove the option of playing competitively if you simply don't have the time or willpower to deal with the MM.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

That would require my enemy to know exactly where I have my forgers without me having any idea of it, which should be something near impossible as he can't see my paths (as I have maybe 15 other castles with a lot of mages sitting in).
But there is of course a truth in it that remote spells (and I actually like them) are really bad MM for the victim.

Yeah sure, banning hammers will reduce MM. But removing all gems will also. I'm not even very much opposed to removing hammers, but they are hardly a core problem. Unless of course everyone needs 3h only to hunt his hammers, but therefore working out where the time is wasted is much better than suggesting bans that can save some micro.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

Hammers removed to eliminate micro makes sense because hammers themselves add virtually nothing to the game but are incredibly common and powerful to the point that you essentially have to use them.

Not many things like that.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

I disagree that hammers add nothing to the game. It may look like it at first glance since virtually all forging uses them, but they do have an effect.

Hammers enforce a steady flow of forging. Without them you could have all your mages churn out items at the drop of a hat with no penalty. Thus I think they do add some depth to the game, since you're rewarded for planning your item needs in advance.

I also think the amount of MM they cause is overstated, most of my hammers stay on the same mage turn after turn, and when they don't the addition of the l hotkey makes swapping them a breeze (it was a lot nastier when you had to navigate the scroll menu, especially since forging tends to be done where there are a lot of units.) Most of the mm-intensive forging headaches I run into are due to booster shuffling, not hammer shuffling.

Regardless, it seems from the various responses that the issue is contentious enough to make their removal in any sort of widely-used mod a failure, though I suppose they could be included in the optional section if Wraith wants.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

Yes, exactly! Gems themselves are a big cause of MM. In CBM summoning individuals demons is cheap - the logic being that the real cost is mage time, not blood slaves. If this logic could be extended to everything you could do away with gems. So aside from perhaps globals or unique items everything would be free (or as close to free as the game will allow). But the only way I can see to do that is to limit the number of mages and that drastically changes the balance and nature of the game (though it could make for a fun, quick playing, mod).

In addition to that, the game doesn't scale well. The more units you have, the more MM you'll have. If there was a way to have the game scale from x units at the beginning to 100x (instead of 1000x) then you could really reduce MM. The best you can do to simulate this is to have smaller maps with fewer players.

In the end, I think you can only change things around the periphery - the cause of the vast majority of MM is built into the game itself. I don't mean that to sound negative: trying to change the things that we can control is worthwhile but it won't solve the bulk of the problem.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

Adding to that I mean maybe the main thing is simply that above a certain point it becomes to much for anyone to manage.
I mean seriously, you are not memorizing what paths even 50 mages have and where they all are.
Or how are you sorting your items when they are not in a lab? Do you just plan 3 weeks ahead so that the 60 new forges don't destroy your order? Sort anew almost every turn?
Or do you just scrap the sorting and start endless searches for that thing you know you had somewhere?

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

If less gems is at least a partially acceptable answer, then dont we already have that by setting sites to a very low setting when creating the game?
--magicsites X Magic site frequency 0-75 (default 40)
Setting events rare would help also.

That would lower everyone equally. Of course some nations have a naturally high gem income from national sites, which could be boosted by pretender selection, but that is part of the balance for those nations which they pay for in other areas (that people usually complain about). That all just amounts to a different game-feel for us all to enjoy. And its already been built-in by the developers.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

You mean MA Pythium? LA Ermor? They certainly are weak to make up for their extra gem income.

I can't think of any others which differ in national site income. I certainly haven't seen people complaining about the way these nations pay for their higher gem income in other areas.

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

MA Pythium is weak?

Re: Template for reducing late game MM hell
 

Sarcasm is possible?