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Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
For more information about the Kingdom of Angmar, its probably somewhere in the 12 books of notes Christopher Tolkien organized and published, somewhere I haven't read yet. (its a lot of books, and they aren't small).
Some specific notes: Uruk-hai are created by Saruman, and as such didn't exist in the time of the Kingdom of Angmar. I have no idea if Orog-hai existed yet or not. There's a little reason to believe they were trolls resistant to sunlight. Saruman should not be 'old'. He took the form of an old man, but he was a Maiar, and as such ageless and older than the world. |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
Kianduatha: This isn't starting with a Prince of Death, this is starting with a free Prince of Death. Sure he doesn't fly, but you get free points in magic, and etherialness besides. Even if you don't spend a single design point helping him out, he's still going to be able to take most indies by himself.
You could easily make an SC Pretender (a cheap Dom 10 Wyrm, for instance, to give you ocean access and spread your Dominion quickly), right along with this guy, enabling you to reliably capture 2 Indie provinces every round from round 1. That's a heck of a jumpstart. Are you going to be able to counter both of them by Turn 6? Because, if we're not ignoring the Nationals, that's not an unreasonable amount of time for a 3rd expansion army. |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
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I want the witch king to be an element of the army that people have to think about dealing with. I don't think he's any more powerful than an awake SC pretender god. Of course, the fact that you could have two of them is a little scary, but that just means that you're going to eat one of your neighbors (though in a 1-on-1, your opponent could specifically counter the concept in their build), which is just like some other powerful early nations. Angmar will have a very strong early game (automatic SC), a pretty weak middle game (poor armies), and a moderate late game (due to having someone with high death and astral). That said, some of what you're seeing is actually more extreme than you're assuming. His fear is +5 plus death, so +9 to begin with. That darkpower is a very hefty one at +5. He already spreads dominion like a prophet, but I'll be disabling temple spread (Sauron didn't have any temples, really). So, prophetizing him wouldn't actually help that, I think, unless it would increase it to 2 candles per turn. Countering that, though, is that I gave him enough abilities that he doesn't gain heroic abilities (or is that just that he's unique?). It seems to me that for the effect of having a very strong unique starting commander to be pronounced, that commander should be very very good. Oh, and the black breath is actually a ranged attack (causing fear and a little paralysis at short range), so he's only got 2 attacks in melee. If he *needs* to be toned down, then I'll do it, but his strength is very much the difference between this nation and another, and I'll be more willing to drop the efficacy of everything else to keep him very good. |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
Well, it'll certainly be a fun Nation to try out, whenever I get the chance. Hopefully, it can get some MP testing, and we can get a better idea of balance. I'm anxious to see the rest of the National units.
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Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
Classes are done for the time being; back to working on this. How does one modify the little icon for magic sites?
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Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
Anyone had any success putting magic beings into province defense? My trolls aren't showing up at all.
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#newmonster 2886 Code:
#defcom1 "Rhudaur Chieftain" |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
That's because your last line of code there says "#defmult2 8" when it should say "#defmult2b 8"
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Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
It's AMAZING how many times I looked for exactly that mistake and didn't find it.
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Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
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Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
It's been a while, but I got some of the sprites going. Modifying them really speeds up once you've done a few. Please let me know what you think so far with the stats/sprites. Here they are:
Captain of Carn Dum (pretty basic leader commander): http://i46.tinypic.com/30jlhqr.png Gundabad Elite Warrior (cap-only heavy infantry): http://i49.tinypic.com/2nss8pg.png Angmar Swordsman (heavy infantry): http://i45.tinypic.com/zvc6t2.png Angmar Bowman (heavy archer/light infantry): http://i47.tinypic.com/2vudemu.png Edit... Oh, also the Gundabad Shaman (best recruitable mage and cap-only, the random magic paths are 110% FWDB) http://i46.tinypic.com/244304p.png The berserk and reinvig on both the orc units are +4 and 3 respectively. |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
Gundabad Warrior (cap-only heavy infantry with a bit less offensive potential; that's berserk +3, reinvig 3):
http://i47.tinypic.com/2hx1wrq.png Snaga Goblin (light infantry; berserk +2 and good stats for size 1): http://i47.tinypic.com/2938uqa.png There are 6 more units to go in their basic lineup before I post a working copy. |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
Ooh...nice, nice.
Initial comments--just to preserve armor numbers...couldn't you just give Gundabad orcs Plate Hauberks? Similarly, I might go for Rusted Chainmail or something on Snagas and also lower their resource cost, seeming as you mentioned them scavenging instead of having to give them equipment. Ugh, I just noticed their 8 encumbrance too. The graphic for snagas is rather confusing, also--I had a bit of trouble the first time around figuring out where the head was. Berserk and what, 11 spellcasting encumbrance on those Shamans? That's tough, especially for their poor magic paths. I'd at least throw them a bone and make them only 220 gold or something. They also could stand to be 14 magic resist instead of 13. As a sidenote, do units with a dousing bonus but no blood still do well at bloodslave hunting? The Gundabad Warrior looks incredibly awesome. In fact, he looks way more awesome than the Elite Warrior--so much so that I'd suggest switching the names and just giving the Elite Warrior a broadsword(which might make more sense anyways, and make him more well-rounded). They can stand to be better, anyways--if you're worrying about their expansion, think of it like this: they're flat out inferior to Dai Bakemono, and Shinuyama doesn't exactly have a rocket-fast opening. Orcs of all sorts should have more hitpoints methinks, if just on principle. 16 for elite warriors/shamans, 14 for the regular Gundabad warrior, 11 for snagas. Speaking (again) of snagas they could actually maybe go down to 7 or 8 morale(bearing testing, of course). With the 15 gold cost on Angmar Bowmen, they're more than capable of having composite bows. I can assure you this will not become an archer nation. |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
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Although there might be a workaround but I haven't tested it. You could give the unit #magicskill 7 1 and #magicboost 7 -1, which should result in the oxymoronic blood mage without blood magic. |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
I was initially going to give snagas rusted chainmail, but it actually has a resource cost of 0. I guess I could just add to the unit's base resource cost, though. I admit that in playing with them, the snagas are a bit hard to get to those teeming millions that they should be able to manage.
Hmm, if I gave the Elite Warrior a Plate Hauberk and a Broadsword instead of the Morningstar and custom armor, then berserk they'd have 16 attack / 9 defense instead of their current 17+2 attack / 6 defense, and their resource cost would go up from 29 to 35 what with the actual armor requiring more effort than just stapling sheet metal to orcs. I'll give it a try like that. |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
Ah, I didn't realize that the Heavy Plate Mail had actually a *lower* resource cost. It rubs me the wrong way to have something called that not like 20 protection, though.
On a second, not sleep-deprived look as far as mechanics go the elite warrior should probably have the morningstar to keep the 'offensive' option clean and then have the more well-rounded regular warrior. I was just going off which graphic looked cooler. I'm actually sort of afraid that the regular Gundabad Warrior isn't actually worth the cost--compared with the Angmar Swordsman(which is appropriately priced for this nation) you lose what, 6 defense? All for one strength and a bit higher prot. |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
The berserk +3 matters quite a bit. Reinvigoration base can be used against fatiguing spells that are there to "soften up" your troops before they close the distance. Finally, the cold resistance is clearly useful in some situations. The problem is the comparison with the elite warrior.
I agree that the gundabad warrior is not so much cheaper than the elite warrior (or the warg rider, but I haven't done that sprite yet) that it is frequently as good of a choice. I might actually go back and redo the elite warrior sprite, since it's one of the first ones I did. I was alarmed in my tests to see squads of the bowmen alone beating knight indies. They took the lance charge without batting an eye. I think two were killed against about 20 knights. Then, they beat them back in melee. It may have been a fluke. I agree in being sort of dissatisfied with my snaga sprite. I really want to give the impression of being slouched over in a very strange stance. Perhaps it would help if I had greater contrast in my palette. The rusty metal, brown leather, and dark green skin all sort of blend together into a mess of an image. I might give the gundabad shaman 1B base and retain the blood possibility in the random magic. Then, I'd give them 1 higher research penalty. I'm not so sure about cutting their cost. With an earth blessing, they are *frightening* thugs, even without any equipment. E9 gives them reinvig to match that very heavy encumbrance and they've got a mid-20's prot when berserk with that. |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
You're right, I'm not really accounting for the berserk(which is pretty nice).
That situation with the angmar bowmen seems to be a fluke--they're good, but expensive enough that they're by no means overpowered. The buckler's a nice touch, though. They'll definitely win any archer duels if you can ever get enough of them. I sort of like the shamans being able to thug out of the box(and be poor combat casters because of it). I doubt people will take an E9 bless just for the shamans(and witch king, who doesn't need the reinvig at all). They're easy enough to deal with, though, with that low a magic resist. |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
Nightblade (the random paths are 50% D and 10% DS; I know they have plate cuirasses and that's not really reflected in the picture. I figured they could wear them under the robes. These are the mages you get at high levels of PD, so they're the linchpin of the cave trolls):
http://i46.tinypic.com/2vdsosj.png Everyone loves assassins who can cast disintegrate! |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
So far my main concern with this nation is, is it even playable? Mages are universally expensive, weak, and terrible at research. Do they have any magical options that are viable to allow them to survive in midgame? Or can they only be played against mod nations that are specifically designed to also suck at magic?
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Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
Well, that midgame is really going to be the hard part for them. They have pretty good access to death magic. The Witch King gives them at least some access to astral. The Gundabad shamen have blood magic, frequently at B2 with douse 1 natural. So, late game magic should be pretty good for them, but really, a lot of that is riding on the Witch King. Their national mages are good enough to cast a few staple spells. The recruit-everywhere ones can cast frozen heart, numbness, shadow bolt/blast, disintegrate, ghost grip, skellispam, and orb lightning. The cap-only ones can cast falling fires, pillar of fire, prison of fire, disintegrate, ghost grip, bane fire takes a staff or gems, skellispam, blood boil, hellfire, hellbind heart, leech, and some acid spells with a bit of help from gems and a water bracelet. They can forge all of the penetration items (though using the Witch King to make the astral ones is probably a waste). Rituals-wise, they have quite a few blood possibilities, with vampires and various demons being quite viable, but also leviathans, undead archers, and such. Using a pretender to get access to the higher-path blood summons and boosters would get you up to more diversity there. Hidden in snow is castable by the recruit-everywheres, and the nation has enough death to climb the ladder to tarts, but has no means of un-afflicting them naturally. With the Witch King, you can even skip ahead directly to lichcraft.
When I get to national summons, I'll probably be giving them some wraith summons to act as thugs. The barrow wights from The Fellowship of the Ring were men of Angmar. |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
The Nightblade seems fun. Expensive, but fun.
Here's what I see as the problem--you only have a chance if people don't know anything about the nation. If they know that you have a nice early game(not as good as, say, Ogres though) but peter out early game for a while, people will just gang up on your large but weakly defended territory. You have to hope that you blast out the gate faster than everyone else and that people don't then get worried and beat you down for it. That being said, I'd rather see how it plays right now and buff as needed than create a monster. You're doing perfectly(and I'm breathlessly anticipating the Worg Riders). |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
Rhudaur Savage (resource-cheap guys that hit hard but die in droves, most of your PD is made of these):
http://i47.tinypic.com/29fb4w2.png Up next is the Gundabad Warg Rider, though I'm having some trouble thinking of a good pose. Wolves seem more dynamic than horses to me, so I want a good one. |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
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As far as I can tell, the real options for mid-game are some combination of powerful battlefield spells and thugging. I think Angmar's strength will lie in the thugging. I wonder how crazy it would be to have the Mount Gundabad site give Construction bonus: 20... it's the place where the dwarves were fashioned from the stone after all. That would provide a definite advantage for thugging. Quote:
Hill Troll Rhudaur Chieftain Rhudaur Shaman Rhudaur Stalker Gundabad Warg Rider |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
For the record, I'm about 90% sure the nightblade would just spam undead(and not very well) instead of actually engaging any thugs. Berserking guys with hatchets help, though.
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Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
Hill Troll (That berserk is a whopping +8, meaning that it's pretty easy to dodge that greatclub until you piss it off, when it turns to 35 base damage at attk 18):
http://i49.tinypic.com/152z0a1.png Incidentally, after the snaga, that's my second try at making a sprite from scratch. I think it's a vast improvement. |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
That is beautiful, and more able to take down thugs than I thought it would be. Ow.
Please say there's a medium level (blood?) summon to get a handful of those guys. |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
No, I think a summon to get the trolls can't really work in this era. They're there to beef up Angmar's ability to defend. Also, they shouldn't be able to travel long distances because of the whole petrified-in-sunlight thing.
When I do the LA version, Mordor, you'll have a blood ritual that creates Olog-hai, which are trolls which can walk out under the sun. They'll be better armed and just as pissed off. The EA version, Angband, will have similar trolls as recruitables (I'm thinking they should have really low stats, but a HUGE darkpower bonus, to encourage you to bring darkness around wherever they go). What are all the things increased by darkpower? Strength, attack, defence, MR? |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
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Even "just" Con 20 sites are absolutely game-breaking (a'k'a they can decide games on their own) because of the somewhat buggy way they combine with forge bonuses. Also, having a con 20 site on your capital would make you absolutely unignoreable target since *everyone* would like to get that thing for themselves. |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
Fair enough. Maybe just a couple more gem income which would build up to a bit of a boost when construction is researched.
Oh, and in my tests I've realized that probably the best way to start with this nation is to have a diverse rainbow mage for access to boosters awake, so you can have 50 research points from turn 1. |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
Just to make sure, we CANNOT mod in linked random paths, right? So, I cannot make my nazgul multiheroes D3+100% W3/E3/A3/F3/B3, right?
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Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
You'd have to use the #magicboost command. There's a vague potential for empowerment abuse there, but it's the only way to give linked randoms that I'm aware of.
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Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
I don't think we have to terribly worry about empowerment abuse with the Ringwraith multiheros though, so #magicboost should be fine.
If you wanted to give Angmar a fairly 'unique' buff based on their magic sites, you might just give Mt Gundabad #incscale 1(Increases Productivity). In a slightly related note, I had a beautiful vision for something like a Minas Morgul nation whose home province increased Death and Misfortune, and you basically had to do everything in your power to keep the scales down(or just abandon your capital, I suppose) |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
Did a few more, though the warg rider's lacking an attack sprite at the moment.
Rhudaur Shaman (actually, I'm probably going to take away the research -1 on these guys, that much gold for that much research is amazingly awful; the randoms are 50%+10% AWD): http://i47.tinypic.com/314ow0h.png Rhudaur Chieftain (berserk is +6, pretty standard commander otherwise... hopefully no one will hate me for using so much of a stock commander shape): http://i49.tinypic.com/1z53vo1.png Gundabad Warg Rider (I'm worried about the fact that the encumbrance and reinvig are equal. It makes these guys *completely* badass; I might have to increase their price or basic encumbrance. The warg you get afterwards is pretty much the same as a dire wolf) http://i50.tinypic.com/2i090tv.png |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
Ooh, nice. You really get the sense that the Rhudaur Shaman is not very eager to be there.
As for the encumbrance thing, usually mounted guys just have a basic enc 2 higher than normal--so 5 base encumbrance would be just fine. You also may want to make the warg rider a bit 'stouter', as he looks thin in comparison with the other orcs. If the Rhudaur Shaman doesn't have a research malus then this nation is in a better place than I thought--their main hurdle to getting thugging going is a complete lack of earth magic. Specifically, you can only forge shields if you get lucky with indies or get up to Const-6 for Lantern Shields. All in all, looking great! I can't wait to play them. |
Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.5 available
There, I've uploaded what I've got so far for people to play around with. I'll add the ringwraith multiheroes soon and update it.
Now, what sorts of national summons should I have? I figure they'll have a bunch of wraith undead summons with death, and death+astral will yield wraith commanders, who will also be death/astral mages. Is it possible to mod in a remote attack spell a la Ghost Riders? The ability to unleash the fire drakes that live in the Misty Mountains as uncontrolled devastation would be awesome. You wouldn't get the unit, but it'd be hard to remove. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.5 available
Ah, one small problem with the mod file--I think it was using \ instead of / in file paths.
Oh gosh those warg riders are scary. Their wargs when they get killed have horrible old age, though :p |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.5 available
Ah, the type of slash is causing problems?
Oh yeah, the warg age will become that of the orc... and orcs are functionally immortal. Hmm, not sure how to change that, other than to make wargs have the same max age. Also, I noticed that I didn't include the attack sprite for the Hill Trolls (though that's something that is RARELY seen, since they have to be hitting something at least as large as they are). That'll be fixed when I update it. Also, should the trolls be size 3 or 4? size 4 probably makes more sense, but size 3 would make them more effective against cavalry thugs. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.5 available
Is it possible to mod in a unit with the Corruption ability? I can't find it in the modding doc.
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.5 available
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Re: Possible mod nation? - Kingdom of Angmar
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.5 available
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.5 available
Yeah, that's the idea. I'm not sure I like the fact that it seems to be impossible to get the ability and not have flight come along with it. But yeah, the pretender chassis is the "Giver of Gifts" (the form in which Sauron forged the rings of power, 'Annatar'). It will have a forge bonus of 25% and hopefully the Corruption ability. I wasn't planning on giving him the ability to fly, so I might have to make him change form between a male and female form to be able to seduce like a succubus and get whoever. Clearly, this chassis is going to have to be very expensive.
The video card on my main computer may have melted, so I might be a while with the next update. I hope I can grab my files from there, I was starting to work on a kick-*** sprite for the Dark Lord pretender chassis. That's going to be quite the SC option. I've decided to make another limiting factor of the nation (all the nations of this line that I design, actually) that they can only pick from the Sauron (or Morgoth, for EA) pretenders. It shouldn't be so bad, since I'll have a bunch of themes for them. Aside from the Giver of Gifts and Dark Lord, there will be the Lidless Eye immobile pretender, who will lower unrest in his province. The Necromancer Shade, who will be a pretty typical rainbow mage, with ethereality thrown in. Finally, the Master of Forms will have the option of being a vampire form, a bat form, or a wolf form. I'm considering an EA chassis to represent Morgoth (other than the same Dark Lord above) as "Dissonance in the Music" which would have tiny combat stats, a huge stealth score, and would generate a ridiculous amount of unrest in his province, as well as reaping a small amount of the population. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.5 available
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.5 available
Haha, really? Oh well, no biggy.
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.5 available
This civ, while representing the first orc civ, and a really cool one, feels a little under powered. Very capitol centric troops and commanders, mages unable to cast in battle without changing their armor first, and rather weak capitol mages. Oh, and so called mages recruit everywhere, that won't do anything noticeable, research being their bane.
All in all, you very well capture the feel of Middle Earth Angmar, and scarcity of magic. But it won't be adapted to dominions, as troops only get you that far, before they dye in bursts of purple fire. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.5 available
Hey, thanks for the honest assessment. My initial goal was definitely to capture the feel of Angmar before going into the balancing. I have some things I want to add to the mod before I really start to weigh options against those of other nations.
National summons are likely to be a big part of making the nation a bit better, since I intend to give a few levels of thugable commanders. I think in the current version, the Rhudaur Shamen have a base research of 2, but at that cost, I'll probably up that to 3, which should be a pretty big difference. Is there any specific problem so far that the nation really cannot face against? Against early tramplers, the trolls in the PD work wonders. They do ok against thugs, which is also true of the orcs and savages (assuming you use some shortbows to make your own guys berserk). It's true that I should probably increase the MR of most stuff in the nation. I just didn't really use other nations' numbers to guide what I put in for that. The early game is great, and the late game has decent blood, strong death, and moderate astral. Those Gundabad Shamen are supposed to be very good blood hunters, so even with only recruiting them at the capital, you should be able to turn them into a respectable income. Getting the odd booster is a suitable role for the Witch King and pretender god, which allow your mages to cast some summons for variety (otherwise, devils are pretty much the staple). Devils are probably strong enough to bring you past the mid-game. The thugs will offer some other options, though. I mean, yeah, their mages aren't top-tier battle casters, but you should be able to push through into the late game after some effort, and once you get there, things shouldn't be too bad. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.5 available
Well, the all in one mage in the capitol is interesting, sure, but it's max one per turn, and they are bloodhunting OR researching. Or doing all the other things only them can do. And their magic might is still pretty limited, and random, so each game is a gamble. So by late game you might in fact be looking at middle game spells, not being sure you've got someone to cast those spells. Not sure some devils will change your day.
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Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.5 available
Definitely a bit better research on your recruit-anywhere mages is gonna make a big difference. I'd say still that Elite Warriors are simply not worth the cost(resources, mostly--don't they still have that artificial resource hike?).
Also just for flavor it feels like at least snagas should be partially poison resistant. I like them so far...the nation seems flexible but not overpowering. Wraiths will be nice to burn gems on to get a bit of magic diversity and some research. I am thinking this is going to be a hell of a nation to raid. You have out of the box the Witch-king, awesome province defense, and you're almost certainly going to get some vampire lords just to add insult to injury. |
Re: Kingdom of Angmar - Version 0.5 available
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I'm realizing that I'm not really getting the swarms of snagas that I'd really like. The upkeep builds up too fast. So, I'm going to make them cheaper. Probably 8 gold instead of 10. Quote:
. . . I'm so sorry. |
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