Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

You probably won't need any what ifs, as this article from DOD reports the CORPS is essentially updating all the current EFV prototypes to improved designs, increased reliability, fire control systems and weapons etc. based on lessons learned to date.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/15615/
Good Night and have a Great Weekend all!!
Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

Yeah saw that, basically they've decided the current design was a great test bed now they're going to design the "real" EFV :)

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

Just a handful of "bullets" out here from sources I trust without "overloading the system" (That's me.) with additional sources for now.
1. BAE & IVECO to submit the following for the USMC MPC Program. The MPC Program will fill the CORPS requirement for a medium class vehicle that'll essentionally fit in between the EFV and JLTV Programs currently going through revision and or evaluation.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/article/article_1794.html

2. Otokar of Turkey launches new AV 6x6 ARMA.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/article/article_1792.html

3. Ukrine to suply Iraq with 420 BTR-4 APC of all types after some bugs are worked out.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/article/article_1775.html

4. And finally for you weapons guys a new (I think impressive...)record set in the 40mm weapons world by Metal Storm.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/article/article_1793.html

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

General info "cheat" article as already posted on the MRAP and MBT threads.
http://www.army-technology.com/features/feature90405/

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

This is another recognition guide as taught by the USA. This one dealing with NATO APC's. Again this should be of some value like the one I posted to the MBT thread to developers etc. it's very through.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...in0535/ch2.htm

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

As promised in my last white paper post, some of you might remember I came across some info that lead me to throw out that the French were in "cahoots" with the British MOD in the broader use of the CTWS 40mm when I was posting on the FRES program.
1. I give you the SPHINX from Panard a long time leader in armored recon and scout vehicles.
http://defense-update.com/products/s..._08072010.html

Pic: Attachment 10311

2. Background on the French SCORPION Modernization Program that Panards SPHINX is in competition for in one segment of.
http://www.defence-update.net/wordpr..._scoprion.html

3. For you German and Dutch BOXER fans the long awaited IFV turret was finally unveiled also @ EUROSATORY 2010 (End of June first half of July.) it will mount the MK44 Bushmaster 30mm AC (Auto Cannon.)
http://www.defence-update.net/wordpr...expanding.html

Pic: Attachment 10312

Also of interest some you might remember in one of my first posts on the "SPA SPAA" thread the Swedish SKYRANGER. I came across a picture of a BOXER with the SKYRANGER turret on it, though I believe it's still in development/evaluation stage with Germany and Sweden (Using the PIRANA IV APC.).

Pic: Attachment 10313

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

I'm now satisfied as far as the MERKAVA is concerned the amount of troops carried is dependent on the number of rounds stowed in the rear compartment please note the last para of this good source I believe one other was bold enough to state this as well. Seems if you want 8 troops you carry one in the breech and 10 in "revolver" as I posted on the MBT thread earlier. It seems we have "one foot in the box and one out of the box" now. Give me my Sniper (Or team.) and a full load of ammo. I'm convinced from a lay mans (Software code.) point of view anything more would be a headache. Comment made here because after all the article is about an APC and increased engine performance might translate to game performance as this is a "fleet" wide upgrade (Or not.).
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...vy-IFVs-06399/

Pic:
Attachment 10471

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

It is a total and utter pain to do from any POV.

Tanks don't have protected carry, APCs do. Simply giving the merkavas a 2 carry would have the guys shot off the back decks as tank riders (which is what all tank carry is).

Thus if the merkava is given protected carry, it has to be an APC class.

So - it is then either removed from the MBT category, or a complete set of merkava (APC) duplicates need to be provided for the player (filling up OOB slots and needing synchronisation if any change is done to the base template model).

If it is removed from the MBT category, then the things have to be put into separate formations, and the AI pick list completely rewritten, even supposing that it has enough room to do so (there may be e.g. reserve tank formations already there).

Whether all that sheer kerfuffle is really necessary so that one or 2 guys who just think it may be a nice to have on occasion the facility to carry 2 scouts 'protected' can be satisfied is really a moot point.

So - if I put this in then I think it will have to be the duplicate "Merkava APC" with 6 carry as an APC class, in a new platoon in MISC, to allow carry of Sayeret scouts and with the main gun ammo load suitably reduced to 12 or so main gun rounds to accommodate it. For human player use only in special circumstances, and in reality probably not worth the bother (I would always pay the extra points for a proper heavy APC platoon as a companion to the tank platoon, as I prefer the tanks to have all the main gun ammo they can eat, and the ability for the infantry to deploy tactically slightly separately from the MBT as required. The MGs on the HAPC are a not negligible bonus, too).


Andy

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

I know Kevin (And others to include myself.) would be disappointed, but I'd rather see the issues of an up armored, new 120mm, LAHAT and TROPHY with the MERKAVA IV being addressed as was displayed at EUROSTATY 2010 and is in production now to include back-fitting all fielded MERK IV tanks as they now come into the maintenance depots. A tank is a tank and I say this to agree, OOB slots for some countries are getting tight. I'd rather have the improved up gunned NAMER too support my MERKs as they can keep up or are even faster. I was for this but the clock is running on the game as are slots, I fear with some countries it's really coming down to picking and choosing the "best bang for the buck". I'd rather have space for the new equipment and or major improvements to existing as discussed above as an example or quickly the ARJUN MKII as another.

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

The Merkava can be classed as a "Gun APC (Tracked)" Class # 127. They can stay in the armor recruitment area as they are armor.
Making some that carry 2 men and some that carry 4 men and even some that carry a full load of 8 men is not a problem with the Israeli OOB. There are 415 Unit slots open and no less than 780 Formation slots open. Fitting them into the OOB is not a problem, the will to do so is.

A weapons system should be portrayed with as many of its capabilities as can be simulated in the game. It should be up to the player how to use those capabilities.

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

The future of the CORPS is at stake as a decision is expected sometime in the next week on the EFV.
http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/659/
Pic:
Attachment 10522

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

Last patch post, APC section for 6.0. Still no word on the EFV program. Again pictures are on the patch post sorry is there a way to transfer them from one post to another?
APC Development...
A1. MALAYSIA/MCV PARS/JUN 2012/C4 P7/DENAL EMAK 30mm Cam Gun
210(65 ready.) Rds & MG4 Coax 7.62mm 1.6KRds (800 ready.)/Though the PARS are manufactured in Turkey (DENAL is S. African.) Malaysia will be the first country to purchase them after what was a long and grueling competition between it and the Swiss PARANHA IIIC and the Polish ROSOMAK. It is fully amphibious and Malaysia has fully equipped and protected these vehicles leaving out no optional equipment etc. such the FC targeting "AUTO TRACKING" as is available by the DENAL source. Turkey and the UAE are still evaluating the PARS. I will address a couple of variations.
http://www.denellandsystems.co.za/pr...ll_description.
html Primary as it covers all aspects of the vehicle.
http://www.denellandsystems.co.za/pr...scription.html
Pics:


A2. MALAYSIA/APC PARS/JUN 2012/C2 P12/RO 12.7mm 2K Rds or RO 40mm AGL 40 Rds /Malaysia has ordered 275 units in 12 variations. Would add both APC types; ammo load based on similar APC weapon types.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product2711.html Note contract info lower left of page.
See Page 5 Post #45.
Pics:

D1. Delete: MALAYSIA/PIRANHA III/UNIT 030/As noted above it lost along with the ROSOMAK per refs and posts above to the PARS.

The following share the same refs., with some having specific additional refs as added. Turrets single manned unless noted differently. All purchased from FNSS of Turkey. Modified in armor to some extent (10% gratis?) over Turkeys units to meet Malaysia’s needs. What's not at issue is the number of additional smoke and 76mm grenade launchers added as the pictures for all show as compared to their Turkish counterparts. Also will provide Turkish counterpart unit numbers as they might apply for further info concerning ammo loads etc. A little "SWAG" on dates (Within a year except for ADNAN SP 120mm.) to group these together and to allow for earlier and follow on order deliveries.

A3. MALAYSIA/ADNAN 50 APC (Added 50 to avoid confusion w/A4)/JAN 2003/C2 P11/Turreted 12.7mm 2K Rds./
Pic:

A4. MALAYSIA/ADNAN AGL APC/JAN 2003/C2 P11/Turreted SAGO AGL 40 Rds./
Pic:

A5. MALAYSIA/ADNAN AIFV/JAN 2003/C2 P11/SHARPSHOOTER Turreted BUSHMASTER MKII M242 25mm UKN Rds w/COAX 7.62mm UKN Rds./Turkish
ZMA AIFV UNIT 176.
http://www2.ssm.gov.tr/katalog2007/d...uruning24.html About the SHARPSHOOTER Turret w/specs, this info might cause review of Turkish UNIT 176 capabilities and manning?
Pic:

A6. MALAYSIA/ADNAN ATGW/JAN 2003/C3/BAKTAR SHIKAN MSL System 8-12 Missiles & 7.62mm UKN Rds./ This is a Pakistani system very similar to the Chinese RED ARROW 8 system in capabilities..
Pic:

Not entered under SP/SPAA section to keep same named units together.
A7. MALAYSIA/ADNAN SP 81mm/JAN 2003/C5/81mm 114 Rds & 12.7mm 2K Rds./Turkish ZHA AMV-81 UNIT 073.
Pic:

A8. MALAYSIA/ADNAN SP 120mm/JUN 2010/C5/120mm 80 Rds & 12.7mm 2K Rds./Turkish ZHA 120mm UNIT 076. If the Turkish ZHA AMV-81has a C5 shouldn't the ZHA 120mm manning be the same and not at the current C4? It is important to note that the ADNAN SP 120mm is mounted on the AVC-S (Stretched M113A3.) that's why I used 80Rds vice 68 - 74Rds. as on some others.
http://www2.ssm.gov.tr/katalog2007/d...uruning21.html
Pic:

C1. Change: MALAYSIA/UNITS 042 & 232./KIFV to MIFV/The KIFV is the South Korean version.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1416.html
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/acv-s/
http://www.fnss.com.tr/v1.6/index.php?conmenu=56
http://kbmyaf.byethost18.com/TDM_Equip.htm A little dated from 2009 but a good general over view w/great pictures.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/contracts.php Go to Select customer drop down window.

C2. Change: UK/UNIT 602/JAN 2015/ADD P7 (Carry)/FRES CVR(T) to FRES-SV/The FRES program required the ability to carry troops into combat. All other aspects of the FRES Program are on hold General Dynamics (See the GD UK site.) was to still compete for the other variants if and when bids are reopened. The only part of the program approved was for the utility vehicles (FRES-U) but was later revoked by MOD to pursue FRES-SV. The units to be deleted (As mentioned.) fell victim to a restart of the program such as has occurred with the U.S. GVC (See posts #47 & #48.) which was supposed to be reopened under tighter budget requirements and focused developmental restraints this month, however all has been quiet on that front here as well so far.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...s-01130/#other Program was revoked to focus on FRES-SV.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/unite...ations_uk.html Shows C3/P7.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/articl...p?forumID=1593 Again mentions carry ability.

Posts: Page 1: #1 & Page 4: #33 & #38.
Pics:

D2. DELETE: UK/UNITS 275, 329, 414 & 423/These are the FRES-U series vehicles that initial contracts were awarded for then revoked by BMOD to pursue FRES-SV per refs and posts.

A9. IRAQ/BTR-4/JAN 2011/C3 P8/Integrated PARUS RO turret w/30mm 360 Rds, 30mm AGL 150 Rds, 7.62mm 1200 Rds & Either KONKURS or BARRIER (BARYER) ATGW 4 missiles./ Iraq started to get these delivered in Oct 2010, training was started in Ukraine in SEP 2010. Allowing for the fielding of trained units w/ JAN 2011 date. Also Iraq only to get the combat GROM weapons module configuration (Utility versions ordered as well.).
POST: Page 6: #53. Associated ("the rabbit hole" thing again.) linkage to this:

A10. UKRAINE/BTR-4 GROM/JAN 2010/C3 P8/Integrated PARUS RO turret w/30mm 360 Rds, 30mm AGL 150 Rds, 7.62mm 1200 Rds & Either KONKURS or BARRIER (BARYER) ATGW 4 missiles./

A11. UKRAINE/BTR-4 BAU/JAN 2010/C3 P8/Integrated PARUS RO turret w/Twin 23mm 400 Rds & 7.62mm 2K Rds/
Has the BAU weapons module. As these are for export did not include the SHKVAL weapons module for Ukraine decided to go "heavy" and "light". SHKVAL is the same as the same as the GROM -2 missiles and +800 Rds of 7.62mm. To allow for the heavier armored version; change to P7 for carry.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...10-0708-06501/
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...0-09-10-06608/ Update shows GROM configuration and others.
http://www.military-today.com/apc/btr_4.htm I know it says sometime in 2009, but I'm more comfortable w/JAN 2010. If you want to change it no sooner then
JUN 2009.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/ukrai...s_technic.html NOTE: Unless I misread the bottom of the "Protection" section GROM is already better protected up to 30mm rounds out of the gate before up armoring it with no lose to carry.
Pics:

Alright I'm taking a break here to enjoy the rest of my last day off with CINCLANTHOME. Status for APC... left to do BOXER IFV status, ARMA 6x6 status, NAMER Iron Fist Mod and BRADLEY ERA Armor Mod. Then onto MRAPs and the rest. Will delete refs once I know they've posted safely form "My Favorites", also to avoid the timeout issues as this has been posted on use WordPad or Notebook (This came the support folks @ Shrapnel Games THANKS!!), I highlight my points, print it, when done copy to thread post highlight off printed version (Highlighting doesn't transfer.).

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

You have been a busy boy I bet Don loves you :)

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

Good Morning everyone, made a Boo Boo here's the fix as already posted to the Patch Thread.

Don,
No reply needed, however, wanted to fix this before you got to it too prevent any rework. Left out Coax 7.62mm on ADNAN 50 and 12.7mm on ADNAN AGL plus changed manning due to the SACO 40mm turret.
A3. MALAYSIA/ADNAN 50 APC (Added 50 to avoid confusion w/A4)/JAN 2003/C2 P11/Turreted 12.7mm 2K Rds & Coax 7.62mm UKN Rds./
A4. MALAYSIA/ADNAN AGL APC/JAN 2003/C3 P9/Turreted SACO MK19 Mod 3 AGL 40 Rds & Coax 12.7mm UKN Rds./
You can in Post #31 in the picture see the MG on the right side of the turret looking at pic for ADNAN AGL. Sorry for the omission again just wanted to prevent rework. I'm done here (Regarding the last submission.) except for Q&A as needed.
SNAFU! God Bless Me!?! Darn Cold!!
THANKS!

John,
Don't know if that's how Don feels that way right now, but I'm willing to bet, with the efforts of everyone else, this will be the largest patch to date, just a feeling. I found a U.S. unit
(2 same type, different variation.) I would like to see deleted above what I already have. I have to check every "current" country to see if they show up elsewhere, again for deletion. Exempt will be Africa, can you guess what they call us? Just trying to clear more slots.

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

I am interested in these deletions

Don

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

Don,
DELETE/USA/Mercenary Group/UNITS 725 & 726/ They have to go! Maybe being a little sensitive here :rolleyes: but, thinking back on my understanding of history in the modern era the peak interaction of mercenaries per say was in the period of the late 40's - early mid 80's focused in Africa, SE Asia (Malaysia comes to mind.) and parts of South and Central America. Most came from Germany(s), UK, France, Belgium, Holland and the U.S. after the war. The two most notable leaders came from the UK and France if I recall correctly and had the books "The Wild Geese" and "The Dogs of War" (Later movies; Wild Geese with the late great Richard Burton in it.) based on their exploits in Africa (Congo). Point being why is the U.S. the only country after using MobHack to have them from the samples looked at above? And in checking some of the African countries they have none in them where I would expect to see them as most of the mercenary actions took place there and in some respects today more, for security and training might still to a much lesser extent still be there today and again C. & S. America for the drug cartels (As a matter of conjecture for these if not material for action/adventure movies.)? Bottom line I accidentally stumbled upon them when I first started using MobHack a couple of weeks ago and saw it as an opportunity to clear some slots here and there from other European countries as well. All these years playing and I never noticed them there before. And I"m assuming when in MobHack and your looking at a country you're seeing all units from the start of WinSPMBT until the end unlike the Encyclopedia which looks at a certain time frame within the game.

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

deleting these would save 2 slots - which is useful, given the squeeze on the USA OOb.

They were probably added in as "contractors" or somesuch. But that sort of thing could be done in the scenario editor, as they are most likely to be "scenario only" interest. (I have much the same opinion about other tertiary stuff, like (say) the military police. Again - if a scenario designer needed such, they could edit a regular infantry element. Players are rather unlikely to want them, methinks :)!).

If necessary - the level bomber population could be pruned (who really uses these in regular battles - and there are 20 slots used of these) - to just a representative item per era (B52 with 750lb bombs would cover it IMHO 195X-202X). The COIN Bombers (6 slots used) could go completely - just a relabelled bomber class, and only used by the human player or a scenario designer (perhaps) for an initial bombardment.

Cheers
Andy

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

Mercs already have a home in the Red and Green OOB's so they don't need one in the US OOB. However, IF there is a legitimate reason for deleting a unit I will do so but we don't have a line up of new units to go in that don't have a slot available so I don't need to start culling units like level bombers "just because" as long as we all stay away from the temptation to add the pentagons latest "kewl weapon" that just came off the drawing board and *might* make it to troop trials....maybe sometime, maybe not sometime.

I am more than a little tired of adding things then taking them out then putting them back in then adjusting the dates they are available. The M25 is a good example. This next release will be the third time their introduction dates have been changed and at least this time they were not intertwined with two other weapons systems that never made it past trials.

Don

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

A couple of helos I'm looking to add on my next list are coming on line within the next two years are just such an area to economize I feel without getting into an anti-air, personnel and tank specialty variations within those categories. As an example one carries (2) Sidewinders, (2) 19 shot 76mm rocket pods, (8) TOW msls. and of course it's AP/HE firing cannon, do we need more then that? I understand the need to modify when significant new weapons come along such as the new HELLFIRE II which I've reported on already is testing on track. I wonder if this might not be a legitimate area for cutting slots for 6.0+
(2012) beyond types that have new/improved weapons. As a player give me the one that has "all the bang for the buck" if you want more buy ammo for resupply (That's how I keep mine fighting.), anti-air, arty, tanks and or ATGW units, that's why they're in the game! My general feeling as player again is we need to sacrifice (economize) a little to get the new units in the game. Slots represent money, look at what your country is doing now in the area of defence it's no different right now in WinSPMBT, I would respectfully submit to every one now. I hear my own words and will get back on topic.
Thank you for your time here.

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

Humm...the USMC AH-1Z Viper

2 x Sidewinder - Check
2 x 19 shot rocket pods - Check
8 x TOW missiles - Check
Cannon - Check

Availability - USMC AH-1's currently being upgraded to the zulu configuration.

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

Well Done! Unfortunately I have no prize to give you but, then you are about the CORPS! I have so many numbers running through my head but of the 185 or 245 HELOS that will make up the USMC AH-1Z most will come from existing AH-1W helos converted over which of course will end that series. It's on my work list as these are just about to come on line and have only been certified operational last month upon completing op evals. There are of course new airframes as well being built; project to be completed by 2021. And you know I always have my documentation ready. And again I say what more fire power is needed for troop support? As a side note (And to stay somewhat on topic.) the EFV seems to be in major trouble, I'm following this closely, they've already probably lost the F-35C, but I know where along with India they can buy more Harriers next year that have just been fully upgraded within the last year. All I'll say is "May God Save the Queen!" also on my work list; it's just dam... I of course mean a darn shame.
Again well done!

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

All,
Sorry should be USMC F-35B, had it confused with the F-35C USN carrier version.

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

Or drive him to insanity;)

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

OK. so when did or will the first of the conversion start to be available ?

Don

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

Don,
AH-1W were fielded in 1985 and is currently the only one being fully flown at this time by the CORPS. AH-1Z will be fielded by (Will recheck my other sources if sooner.) July 2011. I'll give a ref here, more refs will be on my list I'm working on very slowly while I'm taking a break.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/20163/
Going to put further responses on the "HELO game related" thread, otherwise will wait until my work on patch list page 3 is ready and requested for.
Have think about lunch and get ready for work.
"The only limiting factor to what a man can accomplish is limited to how he uses his mind" - Me.
Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

Well.... I've seen sources that claim they began operational evaluation testing in 2006 and it was declared combat-ready in September 2010

Don

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

1. Don't know if it'll make my list for this year or not but ARMA went from it's debut in June (EUROSTATY 2010) to being sold to it's first customer this past week and it wasn't Turkey, the country is thus far unidentified...but not for long.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/turke...mation_uk.html

Also see PG.6 Post #53.
Pic:
Attachment 10701

2. FRES-SV update, LM of UK is officially awarded the contract to start production of the FRES-SV turret by GD of UK.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/20228/

3. The new PUMA IFV will probably become one of the best IFV's in the world once it goes into full production but for now we have two of them.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/20331/

4. Though there's a good chance this will be fielded possibly in the first half of 2011, it'll probably be on my list for the 2012 patch as a mod or add to the STRYKER IFV. The CROWS II system has successfully integrated the station to carry and now launch the JAVILIN ATGW.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/20343/

5. GCV as I reported on earlier was reopened to bids this past week. One of the key elements changed is that the requirement for a tracked vehicle has been dropped. Competitors can now submit either as long as it meets all other requirements.
http://www.army-technology.com/news/news103598.html

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

Pat, please don't make us guess what "PG.6 Post #53" is or where it is.

Don

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

You're right, normally would've indicated "in this thread" of course concerning ARMA as referenced to the topic. Long night @ work and busy.

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

Swedish national court has finally declared that it's defence forces can proceed with it's long delayed purchase of the Patria AMV. This will make Sweden the third country to use the AMV besides Finland and Poland. I guess I'll be busy again as production had already started on units.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/20707/

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

Here's what I've got at the moment :

"Oct 21, 2010

To date, Bell is on contract to deliver 70 Yankees and 28 Zulus; 31 UH-1Y and 11 AH-1Zs have been delivered. Two of each type were used for developmental testing and will be retained as test assets.

Full-rate production began on the Yankee last year.

The Zulu has been cleared to use all Hellfire missile variants, 2.75-in. rockets, the 20-mm. gun and AIM-9 anti-aircraft missile series."

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

Poland to update ROSOMAK (PATRIA AMV) with new recon sensor gear by the end of this year.
http://defense-update.com/wp/2010122...e-rosomak.html

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

U.S. SECDEF Gates kills the EFV. I'm not adding it as a "deletion" to my last patch input yet. Gates also wants to kill the F-35 program as well to meet the goal of cutting the U.S. defense budget by 80 to 100 billion dollars between 2012 - 2016. The F-35 cut issue is meeting with resistance to Gates from the new congress. So congress might step into the fray to save the EFV as well. Only time will tell but as with real life vs game life one thing is certain for now, both will still be around after the next patch unless something drastic happens in real life.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/21003/

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

The F-35 cannot be completely killed, simply because it is the only way to give 5th generation fighter capabilities to the USN and several US allies, as well as replacing several aging USAF platforms. Maybe the vertical take off variant will be deleted and numbers trimmed somewhat but overall it is simply "too big to fail" at this point. Compared to that the EFV looks like a mere overpriced nice to have, although of course one would have to consider the background, such as which districts are going to benefit from it, how much lobbying power can be brought to bear in its favor etc.
However budgetary realities being what they are, something will give in at some point...

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

Some were surprised by Gen. Amos being made Commandant of the CORPS for his support of the EFV as SECDEF Gates has been against it for some time now, but I have read all I need to now put the EFV on my delete list for the next patch now as well. SLAMRAM will be on the list as well though I noted no mention of MEADS. Some might find it interesting to see the direction the SECDEF and USAF want to take outside the F-35 program. There have been rumors for some time that the B-1B and B-2 would not be the end of strategic bomber development for us, it appears it's going to happen sooner then later now as well. Please read and enjoy the breakdown of the U.S. Defence spending overhaul over the next five years. Again note from this ref the source is located in the upper right corner to the article.
http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/...5f3882e1791d50
Also a well respected "think tanks" response.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/21043/

And to get back on topic this could be the end of the GVC program just recently revived last month for new bids - hope you like the BRADLEY.


Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

Well this is why I use the sources I do. This will effectively end my discussion on the EFV unless a miracle comes to Detroit (And those folks could use the jobs lost.) and the CORPS. This is a very comprehensive article on the EFV program from beginning to end and for and against it. A very good read.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...updated-02302/
Here's to another open slot!

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

Personally I always thought the EFV was an over ambitions "magic bullet" program.

The USMC IS in desperate need of a replacement for the AAV (first fielded in 1972) and hopefully some the research done for the EFV will be used to develop a cost effective and "reasonable" replacement.

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

I just noticed this now. It seems pretty obvious to me that these "Mercenary Group" units are not representing Mike Hoare or Bob Denard style mercenary; rather they are a stand in for Blackwater and comparable security contractors.
We are talking about ex US servicemen, armed with american weapons and used for convoy/facility protection duties, VIP details and similar tasks. It makes some sense to have them in the US OOB as armament/training/morale is compatible with the US OOB, they and US troops have occasionally fought side by side and last but not least they have been employed in sizable numbers. That said they are obviously a "flavor" unit, not inherently more valuable than an additional F-4 with a different loadout or whatever; they could be easily shifted to the green OOB with some tweaking.

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

The ARE meant to represent Contractors like Blackwater but they have been moved

Don

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

The GCV program kinda like the EFV program kinda like the...well that one is in the JET...thread. Even my heads starting to spin a little and I'm not even possessed though some might question that!?! It's getting serious though if you're outside the country you might not fully understand the situation here caused by the last election, this was clearly shown after the State of the Union address by the President when normally each political party (Republicans & Democrats) has an opportunity to express their support or rebuttal to the Presidents speech. This year we also for the first time had a third response from the "Tea Party" backed Republicans, which support defense but are more fiscally conservative. I'm not expressing any political view here as this is fact based, however it's having it's ripple effect on defense issues as these will show.

The GCV program is meant to take us to the next gen IFV etc. beyond the BRADLEY, however as I brought to your attention it was cancelled (Budget etc.) in the early summer of 2010. It has since been resurrected with tighter guidelines in cost management and design features or has it?
Is it really needed?
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/21503/
The new GVC development teams.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/21423/
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/21399/

More on the...EFV :shock:
All DoD components unified on the budget.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/21567/
Is the DoD concept of Amphibious Warfare wrong?
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/21460/
Yes our old friend exceeds expectations or a line from a favorite comedy movie from across the pond "I'm not dead yet!"
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/21482/

Everyone have a great weekend!

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

Some APC news.

1. About the Future Combat System (FCS) program, what happened?
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/21826/

2. Further upgrades go into the BRADLEY.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/21683/

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

Just finishing what I started yesterday in the transfer of "raw data" from the "patch thread" to the home threads. Q&A between Don and myself along with the pictures are again, as a reminder in the "Patch Thread".

APC Development...Continued.
M1. Mod: TURKEY/ACV-S IFV 30/JAN 2008/C3 P1O/30mm w/800Rds & Coax 7.62mm w/2.2KRds./ Originally when I entered this I thought to put it in as an "Add", however after thinking about it for a few days I've changed it to a "Mod" because the refs though from solid sources leave me with some doubt as to them serving with Turkey even after watching a FNSS production line video of them being built. I might be conservative here but my confidence level is at 85%+ that Turkey has them. This applies too M2 below as well.

M2. Mod: TURKEY/ACV-S IFV 25 ATGW/JAN 2008/C3 P10/25mm w/900Rds & Coax 7.62mm w/2.2KRds also 8 TOW B ATGW/As noted above.

A12. Add: SAUDI ARABIA/ACV-S IFV 30/JUN 2007/C3 P10/30mm w/800Rds & Coax 7.62mm w/2.2KRds/ This is definite though it was only a small order of 10 - 20 units.
http://www2.ssm.gov.tr/katalog2007/d...uruning21.html Even within the Turkish Army these represent only a total of about 200 out of 2,200 that were converted from the
M113A units Turkey has. I would feel these would've been "up protected" as shown by this ref. A12 was done so without a doubt against 30mm Rds with Spall liners.
http://www2.ssm.gov.tr/katalog2007/d...uruning16.html ACV-S IFV 30 and 25 ATGW variants.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/24806...nce+industries
Pic:

A13. ADD: BRAZIL/VBTP-MR 12.7/JUN 2012/C2 P9/RO 12.7mm w/1.5KRds/ These APCs are to replace the aging fleet of the EE-11 Erutu class APCs developed in the mid 70's. Will address some of the types to be fielded here. Brazil will be buying these in the top of the line configuration for all types at the 30mm protection level, fully amphibious (There's a no brainier look at the geography.) and with all the bells and whistles in the sensor and targeting department this is to include the UT-30 turret and others. Brazil’s economy is the fastest growing one in the western hemisphere and in the top five in the world. They are also sitting on well over of a trillion dollars worth of new oil off the coast making it the second largest oil field in the world (Ref. 60 Minutes.), you can afford to modernize especially when your neighbor is getting billions in military aid from Russia. Will try to track down actual Brazilian name for the type (They like using names of snakes.) but, will improvise name with weapon type carried for now to get these in as this is a done deal. All refs will be added at the end.

A14. ADD: BRAZIL/VBTP-MR UT30/JUN 2012/C2 P9/RO UT-30 30mm w/250KRds & Coax 7.62mm w/1KRds/ This is a highly versatile turret developed by ELBIT Systems. Per the refs this turret has no affect on crew or carry as most systems similar to this also have none as well. Ref. for this turret provided here also to include an excellent article on APC turrets as well.

A15. ADD: BRAZIL/VBTP-MR UT-30AT/JUN 2012/C2 P9/RO UT-30 30mm w/250Rds w/Coax 7.62mm w/1KRds and 4 SPIKE ATGW/
The Brazilian Marines are to get this weapons version also, as well as the Army with the following exception, the Marine VBTP-MR UT-30AT will be an 8x8, increase carry to C12 for the Marine 8x8 and this could be low, also again as with all types it'll be fully amphibious.
http://elbitsystems.com/Elbitmain/files/UT30.PDF
Again this is being bought fully equipped and protected. Adjust size as needed as set by your system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4a8ODHNbuA
A short video 1:41 in length worth watching and it might help in modeling it.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/article/article_2059.html This and the next deal with the contract awarded for the UT-30 RO turrets.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/21010/

And as I did with Malaysia’s ADNAN, I will include the SP mortar units here as well as follows:

A16. ADD: BRAZIL/VBTP-MR 81M/JUN 2012/C4/81mm w/114Rds & RO 12.7mm w/2KRds.

A17. ADD: BRAZIL/VBTP-MR 120M/JUN 2012/C5/120mm w/70Rds & RO 12.7mm w/2KRds.
http://www.defense-update.com/produc...mr_130409.html
http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/475/
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/ivecovbtpmr/
http://www.military-today.com/apc/vbtp_mr.htm
http://www.armyrecognition.com/brazi...mation_uk.html
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product4269.html
Pic:

After a delay of a couple of years, Sweden will finally get its PATRIA AMV. As a reminder I'm only interested in when units are fielded (or operationally assigned to units etc.), so yes I noted that deliveries of the first batch of AMVs will be completed near years end 2013 however, do take note it also states they will be operational by early 2014. As much of this was in the works before the court challenges and allowing for Swedish efficiencies that's why I'm recommending JAN 2014 which I have on good authority is well within the 6 month "swag (or wag)" of not changing dates. This was just a reminder for those "newer to the site".

A18. ADD: SWEDEN/AMV APC/JAN 2014/C2 P10/RO PML 127 OWS 12.7mm turret w/2.5KRds.

A19. ADD: SWEDEN/AMV IFV/JAN 2014/C3 P9/LAV 30 turret w/ATK BUSHMASTER 30mm w/175 Rds & coax 7.62mm w/2KRds./

A20. ADD: SWEDEN/AMV ATGW/JAN 2014/C3 P8/ LAV 30 turret w/ATK BUSHMASTER 30mm w/175 Rds & coax 7.62mm w/2KRds. and 8 TOW ATGW/

As with the VBTP-MR 81mm & 120mm above will list the AMV AMOS below as the AMV is a new platform for Sweden. All will be transferred to the SPA/SPAA section further on to keep things in order.

A21. ADD: SWEDEN/AMV ATMOS/JAN 2014/C3/AMOS Twin Barreled Turreted 120mm Mortar w/56Rds (Split the difference of 50-60Rds.), 12.7mm w/1.2KRds & 7.62mm w/2KRds.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product2220.html
About the LAV 30 Turret.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product2219.html
About the LAV-30 TOW Turret.
http://www.gdls.com/classic/systems/lav30-tow.html
About the LAV-30 TOW Turret from the manufacturer.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product665.html
About the BUSHMASTER II.
http://www.military-today.com/artillery/amos.htm
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...led-APC-05579/
First article that covers the whole project etc.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/patria/
http://www.military-today.com/apc/patria_amv.htm
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/20055/ Legal.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/20707/ Legal.
Pic:

M3. MOD: USA/BRADLEY/JAN 2011/UNITS 006, 305-306, 309, 655, 664, 666 (Yikes!) & 668/ As in the game add a new tech ERA/ARA package and upgrades below.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...835/#more-2835
Please note APR 06 '09 & SEP 22 '08 as these affect the above units. Others in the game were out of service by 2008 - 2009. But the big issue here is the ARA protection and "belly steel" for IED protection (I don't know what their 0 - 6 protection level is.).
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...updated-02451/ This is one of those seek peek articles but gets what you need though, and it is definitely one of the most advanced and new ERA/ARA packages out there.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/20012/
This covers the ERA upgrade.
Pic:

M4. MOD: ISRAEL/NAMER/JUN 2011/UNITS 087 & 088/
As in the game add HITFIST APS with 4 shots (From 2 launchers.) Similar to the TROPHY system it has been developed by the IDF for its APCs. Of note is the fact that it has been tested by the U.S. Army this past fall as well. With the NAMER to be manufactured in the U.S. soon, I won't think it too long before we see these systems on our armor as well. Not unusual between the two allies as Israel was the only country to be considered to get the AH-X (See HELO section.) outside the U.S. had the program succeeded.
http://defense-update.com/features/2...ps_090609.html
http://defense-update.com/wp/2010092..._fist_osd.html
This also covers the U.S. test.
http://www.defense-update.com/featur...09062010.html# In the 3rd Para. discussing IRON FIST is where it mentions the two twin launchers to be mounted on the NAMER.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...94&c=FEA&s=SPE Discusses how the TROPHY and IRON FIST systems work at bottom.
http://www.prlog.org/10258921-idf-se...heavy-apc.html

DELETE: USMC/EFV/UNIT 189/ Was the USMC program cut by the SECDEF on 06 Jan. 2011 in an effort to reduce the defense budget by now 80 - 90 Billion dollars btwn now and FY 2016. The CORPS will reconsider its AMPHIB options, this again as the EFV gets cancelled on the 40th anniversary of their current ones. I will provide posts for this as it was just recently done last week.
Posts: Page 9; #83, #85 & #86.

This is a bonus that was helpful with some of the above.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/militar...your-guns.html This would be an excellent source to check against APCs current in the game or for you game designers. The article is legitimate from Jane’s as I've read from the author and have read a small portion of it from the "free view" section. Nice that somebody can afford the subscription price!?! Well CINCLANTHOME wouldn't authorize the expenditure anyway.

And just made good sense to post these here as well.

Miscellaneous items to include a couple of deletions.

D1. DELETE: USA/MERCENARIES & MP SQUAD/UNITS 725 & 726 and 106 - 109 respectively./ I had hoped this search would've yielded more then this but I searched the game world pretty thoroughly and within the my thoughts on the matter as posted below.
Posts: APC thread Page 7; Posts #66 - #68.

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

News of the week.

Kuwait gets a new APC. Article touches on what the USMC might do to fill the EFV void.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-Kuwait-06734/
Pic:
Attachment 10851
Note to self for the 2011/2012 campaign.

Ukraine almost fumbles on it's arms agreement with Iraq. But it's back on track. Just don't use "used" parts on new equipment, customers just don't like that. Don the BTR-4 is safe!
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...016/#more-6016

Updated order of battle for Iraq for you developers and general info for others.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...764/#more-6764

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

Don't know what happened to the Kuwati Desert Chameleon 6x6 picture, so hopefully these will post.

Attachment 10852 Attachment 10853

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

Very doubtful.
With a crew of 3 and 7 passengers it's not something the USMC would probably be interested in.
They prefer to move an entire USMC squad (13 people) per vehicle.
Why?
Simple, volume/mass.
You can only fit so much aboard a ship, there's no way in hell to double the number of vehicles carried aboard to move the same number of people, not to mention twice as many vehicle and maintenance crew.

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

There is no shortage of amphibious APCs but even the "most amphious" ones can really just wade comfortably across a river.
If you want autonomous landing over the horizont or something in that ballpark then only the chinese have something that kinda fits the bill.

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

News of last week.

The UAE has been spending billions in modernization and procurement of arms over the last couple of years here's another example. Will try to find to what level or type these improvements will be done too. The UAE would fall under what's in the game as the Gulf States.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/22366/

Track for the 2011/2012 campaign.

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

News from last week.

1. Bulgarian low rate production of the BMP-30 to wind down over the next few years, however upgrades to the existing units to include the BMP-23 are to start to bring them up to NATO standards with their recent induction into NATO.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/22435/

2. As added to I believe it was my second "patch post" at the end of November, Malaysia and Turkey have sealed the deal for
257 MCV 8x8 APC's (PARS.) as reported when I submitted them last fall.
http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jd...0225_1_n.shtml

3. As some might remember I thought the end was near for the HMMWV when the OSH-KOSH M-ATV came out. But like re-fried beans BAE still manages to keep the HMMWV coming back :eek:.
http://defense-update.com/wp/20110223_hmmwv_isv.html

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

News of the past week.

1. Brazil's VBTP-MR takes another step forward with the signing of the contract to procure the ELBIT UT-30 RO Turret. The bottom picture is a computer rendering of the VBTP-MR with the UT-30 turret. Again the Brazilian Marines will recieve the 8x8 version as part of the overall pkg. The USMC was also looking at the 8x8 version as well prior to the EFV being cancelled in January past. See the patch extract in this thread for further info to include the 8x8 and USMC interest in the refs.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product2956.html

2. The USA GCV program and GAO report on it.
http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/770/

Regards,
Pat

Re: APC Development and related topics.
 

News of the last couple of weeks.

1. The USA keeps pushing for the GCV.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/22933/

2. The German BOXER to make it's first deployment in AUG. 2011.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...updated-02410/

Regards,
Pat