Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

I doubt I will be much opposition, but I'd like to play nonetheless.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

I'd like to sign up too. Does this mean I get to fight Apsophos first? :)

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

It seems like this is the alternate answer to the Megagame. Well, I played all the megagames, so I'll play this one as well.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

maybe we should randomize the initial line-up order, so as to prevent meta-strategizing of signing up just after a player one feels confident about beating (not suggesting anything about Apsophos which he [or she] didn't already state of him [or her] self).

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

If the goal is to determine a winner tournament style, perhaps we should pre-seed based on people's perceptions of other players. This does tend to lead to the perception that you are a good player causing you to last longer (because you experience weaker opposition early on), but it also increases the likelihood of interesting late games (few weak players survive due to match-up luck, strong players are unlikely to meet early), and upsets can be startling and unpredictable.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

I'd favor randomly choosing who meets who if one wants to change the proposed meeting order.
I am against putting (perceived) strong players against (percevied) weak players.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

1)in you first post you writed twice 25
2) it's my first mp games but you have to start somewhere, don't you? so count me in.
3)It's a PBEM, right?
4)what map is TBA?

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

He's right. Jarkko should be 26.

I'd like to play. If I've counted right, Swan should be in the previous pairing. Without judging his ability, I don't think I should play another new player in the first round. Later rounds would be unbalanced.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

To Be Announced, ie the map is not decided yet :)

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

How about all even players play nation x, all odd players play nation y.

Nations x and y could be chosen each round.
Or alternately odd players could chose from x andy and even players could chose map a or b.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

AdmiralZhao, under the normal rules, that would be true provided that an odd number of people who signed up before you didn't withdraw from the game.


Swan & Stagger Lee, thanks. Though it seems I caught that mistake just before I saw your posts.


Jarkko, thanks for answering Swans question.


Ink & Squirrelloid & chrispedersen, I'm a big fan of "Keep it Simple". I understand your concerns that someone might try to manipulate the odds. I also understand that a seeding would in theory make things more interesting. However, the process of seeding players has to be extremely simple and lacking subjectivity or else it will make players unhappy.

So far I would only be in favor of a complete randomization or perhaps a seeding based on your join date at the forums. The problem is really just too complicated for people not to object to it in some way. If you want a reference as to how hard it would be to rank players without a strong objection, I would like to refer you to the thread about who here is a vet.


Everyone, happy New Year.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

So, I meant something like 'ask everyone for an ordered list of players from most to least experienced/skilled'. Of course, someone could just submit a randomly ordered list or whatever if they wanted to. Sum ranks for each player, order players by summed rank (break ties randomly), fold for pairings. (1 plays 32, 2 plays 31, etc...).

Its 'objective' in the sense that no one person's subjective ideas distort the list, and once you have every person's list there is a definitive final ranking.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

That sounds extremely complicated, and could insure the tournament never gets off the ground. I would prefer a slightly more imbalanced first round to all that hassle.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

The complexity of a machine can be measured by the number of moving parts. In the case of human social events, increasing the number of people involved and their involvement increases the complexity of the social activity. In that respect, people are like moving parts of a machine. Increasing the number of moving parts always increases the chance for the system to break down.

Squirrelloid, your plan calls for an increased workload for all players involved in a mega-game. If this was a small game, your plan would go more smoothly. It is also best if such ambitious rules be clarified before people sign up for the game. My experience in setting up games tells me that its hard to expect players to keep up with rule changes. Rule changes that require the player's participation are therefore the worse.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

I am interested

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

if we keep the current pairings and ordering, and collapse the pairings treelike, i predict a lingchih vs. [baalz, wraithlord] final matchup, where [b,w] is the winner of that match.

The upper-half bracket looks a lot rougher, starting with baalz and wraithlord facing off in round 1 (ouch!), and continuing with a number of pretty decent players, so i'd be more likely to bet on an upset in the upper bracket than the lower bracket.

Of course, I'm extrapolating based on observed MP-skill, which might not translate as well to duels.

Edit: I also predict Ling's first pick will be Nieflheim

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

I'll play, though I'd like to be able to rename to keep turn time to a minimum.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

You underestimate me Squirrel. I can beat either Baalz or Wraithlord, though it is nice to see them fighting each other in one of the first matches.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

Lets just stick to the rules in the OP, this is the first tourny of its type and AreaofEffects rules/setup seem pretty good to me.

Would Nieflheim be a good nation choice? Chances are several others will pick it and your chance of getting the nation may be 1 in 4 or higher, then you will have missed out on the 1st round picks. Same with Ashdod, another obvious nation choice.

Also, those are essentially, 'blitzs' completely different from the usual type of game on this forum, so I think the chances of a surprise winner are considerably increased. Essentially, compare it with snooker, over 19 frames the best/classiest player wins 90% of the time over just 5 frames it goes alot closer to 50-50.

I would for example having played vs both Baalz and Wraithlord suspect Baalz will be alot better at a blitz then a, 'normal' game. Wraithlord's strongest attribute, diplomacy (he really does have the ability to bend other people to his will, I suspect mind control:D) is completely useless in this game format.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

I second that sentiment Meglo. The OP rules sound fine to me. And yes, of course I would pick Nief, if I thought I had a good chance of getting them. Otherwise, well... I might have to be more creative.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

What? I'm faced with Baalz on first round? Maybe I'll try to "bend him to my will" so he'll drop at the last round (and use bribe if required) ;)
Damn but one of us will get no learning curve in this tourny.

Since this is prone to be an interesting match I consider posting the major battle videos to my you tube channel (and maybe charge for commercials :) ).
AoE, Baalz, is that ok by you?
(Anyone's familiar with a freeware windows video capture application?)

I agree that the rules should be kept simple and immutable. Simple and straightforward will help ensure that the tourny runs smoothly.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

Hah, I would certainly be interested in seeing some of those battles. I think putting them on youtube is an excellent idea. In fact I encourage everyone who participates in this tourney to do so, and especially for exciting matchups such as WL vs Baalz.

You could try fraps. I never tried it, but it is my impression it's semi-popular. You can only record a certain length of time uninterrupted though without buying the full version, but if you had video editing software I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to combine several smaller videos into one larger one should the need arise.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

I agree, although I would ask him to consider the renaming rule one more time :) Even with 10 similar commanders it will take a while to find that one special one, and if I'd have to repeat that every turn, frustration would be the end result, when normally I'd just rename him and wouldn't have to go through the hassle.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

WraithLord, its alright with me if its alright with your opponents. I think it would be great to transmit the battles over the interwebs for others to see.

Jarkko, I'll reconsider the renaming rule.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

I support renaming on.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

The only one I'm familiar with is Camtasia, which offers a 30 day free trial. That might be long enough for a blitz. There are others, like CamStudio or uvnc. Look for screencasting in wikipedia for a more extrensive list.
I'd try uvnc if I had to use one, because it is purportedly fast, while camtasia is indeed quite slow.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

Yeah WL, no objection at all to recording stuff, that sounds like fun. Given the level of interest maybe I'll line up some sponsors. ;) I do tend to agree with Meglobob that this format tends to highlight my strengths as a player while minimizing my weaknesses (end game micro). Not that I particularly expect to win, certainly no shame to losing to Wraithord round one and might be fun to do some losers bracket duels for those that do get knocked out early and are still interested in playing.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

Sorry, that wasn't what i meant by that. I meant [baalz, wraithlord] is one of Baalz or Wraithlord depending on who wins their matchup. I wasn't making a prediction as to the ultimate winner of the tournament, just a prediction as to the match pairings.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

I don't know a lot about screen capture but I've been using CamStudio lately for a project, and I can vouch for its goodness (for simple work at least) and freeness. I just tried it on a Dominions 3 battle and it worked acceptably well.

Here's how I record videos:

Capture the basic video into a giant, weakly compressed file with CamStudio, which has been configured to use the lossless CamStudio codec. (I think you have to download this codec separately.)

Use SUPER (http://www.erightsoft.com/SUPER.html, also free) to convert that into a much smaller, better-compressed file that uses some awesome lossy format like H.264. (There are probably a lot of free conversion tools; SUPER is the first acceptably good one I was able to find.)

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

Yeah, I also tend to agree with MB. According to my one game only experience playing with you (Artifacts) I think that one of your major strengths is super optimal openings. Then add to that the pure awesomness of being probably the topmost dominions strategy expert. And last, I have 0 blitz experience and my skill set is probably heavily based on regular dominions MP - So yeah, I think you have an advantage here :)
That said, I'm certain that it would indeed be very interesting to see how this plays out.
Naturaly, the final outcome will probably also be effected by (in game) luck and our nation picks (some nations have rock, scisor, paper relations).
Also, whether or not the nations we've picked be public knowledge will make a big difference.

AoE, Baalz, Thanks for your approval for posting video captures.

LDiCesare, thanks for the tip. I D/Led camstudio and already captured my first battle. It's making it way slowly to my you tube channel :)

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

Hmm... why do you want to go with different nations anyway? It'd be more fair to use same nation. X vs X, ex. Ashdod vs Ashdod. Nation for each round could be random. It's quite easy to clone nation with a mod afaik.

Also - why eliminate defeated players? Let's do it like in normal tournaments in other games [I think MtG uses that] - first round can be random. Next round people with 1 victory play against random opponent with 1 victory, those with 0 play against 0. Repeat every round, winner is the one with highest score at the end. You can always use that as preliminary sorting [3-4 rounds?] and play elimination ladder later to determine winner.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

AoE, when will we know our final nation assignment?- Would it be private or public knowledge (until first round at least)?

And hey, why only Baalz, Lingchih and me get mentioned? What about MB, Psycho, WingedDog and chridpedersen?- Should be some hype to go along with these names as well :)

AoE, do you think it would be interesting to make a vote on who ppl think be the winners and at the end compare it to real results?- It will also help hype the tourney.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

It's more fair? but is it more fun?- Is it more interesting?

Currently, This is kinda like the free all style fights, you know, like UFC and MMA. It helps answer not whose the best player neto but who is most deadly when wielding nation X. There's close corelation between the two but they're not neccerily the same answer.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

I did say the upper bracket was rougher, and that list of names mostly explains why i thought that.

If people were really that interested I could post my predictions for all round outcomes based on current arrangement, and my estimated likelihood of the predicted result.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

Ha! Squirrelloid's odds eh? :)

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

Can you act as a bookie too?

:D

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

Zeldor everyone having the same nations would be completely fair but extremely boring.

The round robin? I think its called, tourney type would be good but of course it adds alot of complication for AreaofEffect which I think he is trying to avoid. Probably the reason something like this never been done before is because its very complicated to organise all the way from start to finish.

How about, seeing its a knockout tournement calling it Dominions, the World Championship or Cup? Inspired by the football world cup to be played in South Africa this year and which as a similar format.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

It's not round robin, it's the Swiss system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_system

It has the same amount of rounds as a knock-out tournament, can have any number of players (not just powers of two) but requires more bookkeeping.
I would prefer not eliminating losers but I'll play anyway.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

I don't see your system for setting-up pairing beyond the first round. Do you plan to collapse the list of remaining players after each round (keeping the relative ordering) and then simply matching up just like you do now? (1 vs 2, 3 vs 4, etc).

Also, may I suggest Challonge for generating the bracket. It can also randomize seeds, so we don't have the sign-up order issue some are complaining about (frequent players tend to be frequent posters and were the first to sign up, making the bracket top-heavy, talent-wise.)

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

Snapz Pro X is a great movie screen cap app, if you are on a Mac.

http://www.ambrosiasw.com/utilities/snapzprox/

The free demo even works quite nicely.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

Fixed

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

i didn't get a thing about nations choice: you said "nation from any ages", does that means we will use single age mod? or we will fight people who choose the same ages?
and are all nations available?

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

As each player will have a unique nation, and the pairing is done in the order of reporting in, it is pretty safe to assume a single age mod is going to be used :)

Certain nations will be more desirable than others, which is why I presume the first post goes in such detail on what to do if several people choose the same nation. The most wanted candidates for blitz nations would (I believe) be the various giant nations, or nations being good at zapping giants (because it is likely you will meet giants).

The thing with nation selection, or so I like to tell myself, in this sort of game is "Will I try to get one of the really truly great blitz nations in the pre-game lottery, or will I go for one of the less obvious ones who I might be practically guaranteed to get?". It all depends on how many players there are along. If there will be 64 players, then it might be good to aim for one of the less obvious nations, so that those who do not win in the pre-game lottery one of the supernations, they will be forced to pick one of the crappier ones (and your chance to meet such a crappier nation is higher then!). If there are just 34 nations, then it might be worthwhile to risk it, and try to get the jack-pot (one of supernations) in the pregame lottery (how many will pick Ashdod for the lottery, how about Niefelheim or Vanheim? Choose wisely, and you might be the only one trying to get one of the supers!).

Then there is the knowledge of other players. Like in my case, I like Pangaea over everything else; slMagnvox (my apparent opponent for the first round) might take this into consideration, and choose a nation that is particulary good vs Pangaea. Of course, I might think that slMagnvox presumes me to take Pangaea, and thus I would try to metagame that and choose something that would be great against something which would be great against Pangea (if you follow my thoughts there, my thoughts go in paths which make the behaviour of a lobotomised rat in a maze look pretty logical in comparison).

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

i'm in. me join! should be a fun tourney.
It is quite a challenge deciding which nation to go for when we get to that point. I know which nation is my top choice for pwnage, but the question of whether or not to take it remains. Also, do I want to win a tourney cause I got the nation I deem strongest for the format? Or it would it be better to challenge myself with a weaker nation? Oh the challenges.
Zlefin :)

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

I've been thinking about the maps for this tournament. It seems like it would be desirable to have just one map, otherwise you run into the question with several nations of which map to use. Several of the nations are strongly amphibious so I can see some nations/players being unfairly handicapped by the lack of water/land because of the nominal designation of their nation. Seems like for optimal strategic fun even non amphibious land nations should potentially have water conquest to contemplate. Conversely, in keeping with the feel of a normal game aquatic nations should be likely forced to contemplate land conquests.

A map like Sha Bay seems like it would fit this bill. It is maybe a bit big for two people, (68 land + 12 sea) but otherwise I think it's a pretty good fit. Enough water to make a water entry worthwhile, but not (generally) required. Enough water to give a water nation a little breathing room with some strong incentive to not sit around in the drink indefinitely, with some relatively protected island land provinces to keep them from being really shut out of the land. In the event of a aquatic/aquatic matchup this would be a bit cramped and probably suboptimal, but there's a good chance that matchup may not even happen so it may be a better idea to let that be maybe an interesting dynamic if it does happen.

And while it's a bit larger than we would probably aim I don't think it's prohibitively large. Having 40 provinces per player is a problem for larger games because the leaders end up having 200+ large empires by the time they've finished their first conquest or two. Seeing as how I don't see how you could make it to having more than 60 provinces without having won I don't think it's too prohibitive. Particularly as in a lot of cases the water is just going to be ignored (including the 8 island provinces) and there are going to be plenty of unconquered indies because people go right for the throat in a duel rather than forming NAPs, etc.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

I played around with your map vfb and found it quite enjoyable.

Anyone else have strong feelings about a particular 1v1 map? Wanted to play a duel or two with friends in the lead up to this tourney and would love another map recommendation or two so we can try out more than one.

Visually my favorite maps are in the Cradle of Dominions or Silent Seas style and I count visuals being rather important when picking a map to play. I also am fond of Pashadawg's work.

Would there be any argument for a small wrap-around? I am thinking in 1v1 a more East vs West arrangement is favorable but maybe I am overlooking something.

EDIT: Guess I wasn't the only one thinking about maps this afternoon!

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

Sha Bay is a nice map, but i feel like its a little too big. maybe 40 provs total. most blitzes i've been in had 15 or less. didn't vfb make a duel map?

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

Well, it's a matter of opinion I guess, but 15 provinces per player is pretty cramped for 1 on 1 which tilts the game towards very early fighting. You're probably going to encounter each other (and start fighting) early year one which makes the only viable strategies rush strats. Duels I play on generally have 40-50 provinces total, and as I mention they are usually decided before all the indies are conquered. With heavy fighting guaranteed inside year one its going to be all but impossible for many nations to face something like triple blessed Neifelheim. Giving just the few more turns it'll take to close on a larger map makes a lot more interested strategies viable IMO. The dynamic for duels is different, its not been my experience that 50 provinces mean 2 nations of 25 provinces duking it out, its more like one guy with 12 provinces and another with 20 maneuvering about with a bunch of unconquered indies that nobody has the time to get now.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

I'm interested.

Re: Mega-Dueling Tournament - Rules, Settings, Check List, and Sign Ups
 

+1. More room to maneuver is good.