Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

Except that much of Baalz's guide is focused on Fever Fetishes that don't exist any more.

And I believe the Hunters have been dropped in price, which counters much of his argument against them.

Not to say his expansion tactics won't still work, though the mid/late game changes drastically without fetishes, but the other changes may make Black Hunters viable.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

Ahmm, finding a solution to take indies doesn't make a nation viable. I found an easy and cheap solution to take indies with EA Agartha and got royally kicked by human opponents (in a RAND game - I'd never take Agartha of my free will :) )

And 4-5 of them cost 320-400 gold and are not cheap on resources. At the same price you can take 10-13 regular spider riders that will also take most indies easily and w/o losses. You don't need bless for them so your pretender can take SC/Rainbow/Sage duty instead.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

That guide is very well written,but he was using older CBM versions.
He was looking at (overpriced) 125g Hunter spiders,we are looking at 80g Hunter spiders.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

Yes, 80 gold hunter spider are more viable but I still think taking a strong bless with Machaka just for them is a big mistake.

My experience with 1.6 CBM Machaka shows them to be weak when facing human opponents who know what they're doing. They are not Agartha level weak but they are not ok or good either.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

[quote=WraithLord;724920:)

And 4-5 of them cost 320-400 gold and are not cheap on resources. At the same price you can take 10-13 regular spider riders that will also take most indies easily and w/o losses. You don't need bless for them so your pretender can take SC/Rainbow/Sage duty instead.[/QUOTE]

try E9N4 Hunter spiders.
The real difference,besides getting a lot less afflictions and much longer life span on the rider: Regen on your Spider,after the rider died.
Thats a respectable force still in midgame imo+on a power per upkeep scale,the sacred hunters are now much better investment longterm,even though you are a bit limited with your pretender choice(imprisoned for good scales) imo.
I wouldnt rely on the hunters without a blessing,though.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

Baalz' excellent guide on Machaka is mostly about Fever Fetishes, and how to use the cheaper spiders until you have enough Fever Fetishes to have a proper fire-gem income. Fever Fetish is a unique item in CBM 1.6, so that is not possible anymore, and thus the basis for that guide has gone to where the dodos are.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

Seriously, no bless is needed on your hunter spiders. You can use them for fast expansion and still have your awake SC or rainbow pretender.

It's been my experience that 4-5 hunter spiders are more effective and last longer than the equivalent cost of regular spiders.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

I can't see why people wouldn't want to take a couple of minor blesses on the hunters. With that they are definitely more durable than spider riders, though they become obsolete more quickly.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

Just thinking out loud here:
E9N4 may be good, but it's still oddly mixed. E9 is great for the Riders, but the N4 is largely wasted on them, though the drop in afflictions is always good. N4+ is nice regen for the Spiders, but they don't get much from E9. Your mages aren't sacred, so the E bless doesn't help there.
Plus you've got both paths already on national mages.

How about an Astral bless? That covers your main magic lack, getting you rings and late-game spells. Any MR boost is invaluable for the Spiders, if you go to S9, Twist Fate will help the Riders, since they're low hp.
Maybe add another minor bless if you want something else on the pretender.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

@Sombre
That's exactly what I did, though I didn't bother blessing them for fighting indies. I didn't want to waste recruitment turns at my capital buying priests. When I started fighting other players the minor bless became very useful.

With E4/N4 the riderless spiders have some nice regen and don't gain fatigue.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

Interesting idea.gotta test this.
If you concentrate on the spider ,its probably adviseable to take more N for higher regen.Something like W4S4N6...well,now that i think of it: N9 would make the spiders pretty strong.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

I wouldn't consider S9 as very helpful to the spiders once they lose their riders. Their mr is still their obvious weakness and it isn't boosted enough to shore it up against mr check spells.

It's great for the riders though.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

Yeah,its a rather odd mix,but it stayed superior for me,even after lots of testing.The build is specualized for ultrafast early expansion and troops still being useful in midgame.

Afflictions are a huge problem with the hunters,expecially for the low HP rider,N really is a must for both forms.
If you take E9 you got prot 24,so if you take damage,its often pretty low damage,like 1-3.Ive learned in my games that the lonely 1Regen helps a lot there,too.
Also your spideriders do face fatigue problems,because you are getting swarmed and many battles last 12+ turns.
The base 20 prot is as such wasted bc of critical hits sooner or later.U need reinvig for large battles.
Twist fate isnt helpful,since you are getting hit by a lot small damages.
Only thing instead of E9N4 could imo be E9N9,though u take a big hit in much needed scales there.
N9 solely makes the riders fatigue problem even bigger,though it helps the spider more.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

Actually, a minor B bless would also be very helpful, as it would guarantee that your spiders' bite attack would penetrate for the death poison.

Edit: Oh, and I think people forget how incredibly tough it is to kill Machaka's mages on the battlefield when they just turn into spiders. The same applies to armageddons.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

What's this about a nerf to astral magic now?

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

Probably this means clam nerf?

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

You can only recruit hunters from capital. I wouldn't spend design points to bless a capital only unit. A minor bless can work b/c usually you can get it as a side effect of SC/rainbow pretender. More than that is not required for hunters. I'm not arguing that they are not good or overpriced. I'm saying regular spider can carry the day for Machaka in early game. Don't forget that you will want your riders to die so that you get no upkeep so the regular spiders are also 0 upkeep - what's not to like.

That said, Machaka is not competitive and no FF factory hurts them a lot. I think 1 extra D/E/F/N pick on their mages is a good boost for them. Their mages, not spiders or armies are their real power.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

Really? That seems a pretty bizarre restriction to me.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

common, besides the fact that you can only crank so much of a sacred capital only unit (so you get diminishing potential returns on your bless investment as the game progresses) this practically cries out to shut down your capital with spies/unrest spells. And in that case you have put all the eggs in the same basket and someone will have just punched a hole in it's bottom.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

So your niefel build would revolve around skratti?

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

Well yes. Skratti are kickass.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

4-5 hunters are an early game army,producable EVERY turn way before the end of year 1.They stomp indies and PD alike with no losses.
Building like 8+ per turn would indeed be putting all eggs in 1 basket.So cap only doesnt hurt here.Gold is for Forts and Mages.
Its obvious that e.g. E9N4 hunters are much more durable than unblessed ones.In turn they are much better for early expansion and early wars vs humans than the normal spiders,u prefer to use.
I pay for it with an imprisoned Pretender and odd magic paths for machaka.
Its a matter of preference,really.
Personally i think no other strat with Machaka can match the early game they got with blessed hunters now.Its not even close.
Thats why i like it.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

N4 doesn't seem to make a big difference in black hunter performance. Given they have N natively, I'd rather invest in other blesses or scattered magic paths.

Consider F4 for some more offensive punch - should benefit all the attacks, and you're going to be outnumbered so better offense is good.

Consider S for just general use later, irrespective of its 'bless' potential.

I'd probably use a GE or Sphinx chassis imprisoned, and grab at least plausibly good scales. (Pr3L3 are the ones i'd definitely try to get. Dr2 is acceptable, H3 is obvious. Could consider turmoil, but i'd rather take the drain so i had more cash to build forts/labs. Growth or Order is good if you can find the points).

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

Afflictions are a pain for the hunter riders,since low HP units with high prot do survive some hits,but have a v high affliction chance.U rack them up in no time.

I prefer having N4 therefore for much reduced affliction chance,regen on the rider(low but makes a difference together with high prot) and foremost,regen on the spider.
Ive tried all possible bless combos keeping decent scales in mind,and E9N4+ seems to make early game with hunters the best.
F4 looks ok on paper,but i dont have the points left after choosing my build.Earth Mother for E+N seems ideal...for me.
I wont tell my scales,since i plan to use this build in my next MP game.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

I wouldn't take E9 with CBM, E9 will just keep your rider alive longer. Now that MR on the hunter spider is acceptable, there's not much reason to want the rider to stay alive. So, grab yourself a rainbow bless and/or some nice scales.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

The rider got a lot more offensive power.
If you want to push the early game with Machaka as much as possible,like i do,E9 is a must.Reinvig + 4 more protection make your riders like 3 times more durable.
And i get pretty nice scales,too,btw...

But sure,like Sombre mentioned before,concentrating on the spider is an interesting option now and allows for a lot more magic diversity.The MR is still low,though.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

See, i don't like N4 because in testing the riders rarely took damage at all against indies, so who cares if they reinvig? And against other players your sacreds are hardly your strength. And when they did get an affliction I generally didn't care.

I'd rather get some astral on my pretender, for example, or do just about anything but get more N in a nation that already routinely gets N3 on Sorcerors.

Great Mother seems like a waste of points since there's no real reason to invest in a super high dominion either. Take a master druid if you absolutely must have E+N.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

Are we talking about the same thing?. The only weaponry on a Black Hunter that's more damaging than a Hunter Spider is its lance. And it gets to use that once per battle. And since your numbers are probably smaller than enemy numbers, oneshot weapons don't make a whole lot of difference. If you're fighting equivalent-sized units: you own Elephants no matter what shape you are in; if you're fighting Hydras, then you're better off in spider shape anyway.

I'd rather pay zero upkeep than have the lance.

Yeah, that was my whole point. You want the rider to die.

Good for you. With a rainbow bless, you'll have additional magic diversity too.

No it's not, it's 10, which is average (and just 1 less than the rider had). And it's more than 10 if you take an S bless from a rainbow god.

E9 buys you nothing for the late game, and it makes your net income lower.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

Huh?
The rider got a spear in addition to the lance.
In addition,the death poison attack of the rider is strength 18,whereas the spider only bites with strength 13.Thats quite a big difference for such a powerful attack.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

right,with E9 your riders are hardly damaged,but if you are swarmed in big indie fights that 1regen +less affliction chance is extremely good.They are hit rarely,but its like ever 2nd or 3rd hit gets them an affliction without N blessing!

Also,i am talkin about early game,meaning also attacking humans as early as the the start of year 2,when you definately absolutely can rely on your hunters.In those fights,Nature is even more important.
Also,N makes the spider much better after the rider died(for the 4th time now!).

Sure,S on pretender would be nice.I have to rely on Shamans and arcane probing to at least to be able to forge some items later on.Without clams though,your opponents wont field that much astral anymore.And since i want to emphazize on early and midgame with that paths,i dont care.
You can also find good astral mages on earth sites e.g..

You are right,the Master Druid leaves you with 184 points left taking Dom 5 ,the mother 168.If u take Dom 6,they are equal.
Thanks for this,the Druid is indeed slightly better there..

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

I beg to differ. Most of the really good astral spells do not require massive amounts of pearls, and the fact that astral nations still are astral nations means that they will field astral magic against you. Unless you specifically somehow counter their astral battlefield magic instead of their usually weaker/equal other paths. Lack of clams reduce the amount of wishing and possible empowers, which lets you concentrate your pearl/research resources elsewhere. The nation with reliable national astral magic would be stupid to not use it.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

Mardagg, your strategy is ok for SP. For MP its problematic. No strong astral is bad in late game. No access to water hurts too. If you make it to late game you'd be left with a bless that is only good for a capital only now easy to counter average MR unit.

Where I fighting your build I'd have MHed all your mages and enslaved/soul slayed your armies. I'd have shut down your capital production as my first shot in the war. Astral pretty much rules end game and your bless has denied you any piece of that cake.

I'd say Machaka needs either awake SC or awake/sleeping rainbow (with s6,d5, w3 for example)

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

Shouldn't the hunter spider have str 18?

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

[quote=vfb;725054]lol,what do you want to achieve here?
You want to show me how useful spiders are now in later battles vs humans?
MR 10,MR 11,hell even MR14 with S9 blessing are a joke for an Sc type expensive unit.
They are for Early game mainly and to a lesser extend for midgame.
I dont need any MR there,i dont need any S9 there.
S9 makes the hunters much worse in comparison to E9 vs indies and early game humans.
U cant rely on spiders wihtout riders alone for that matter.
IF u would take S9N9,we could talk again.But that really doesnt allow for good scales anymore and still leaves u with a v fragile rider and a durable but weak offensive spider.
And why do you even talk about late game,when i always stated that i concentrate on early game with that blessing??

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

after the rider died,they are strength 11,venomous fang attack is strength 2 then.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

yeah ,i know.
Basically i am saying,that a much better early game makes up for that on many maps.
I still got Nature and Death for Tartarians,Astral summons/rituals are a lot less common without clams.
I rely on spiders early to mid,to ideally get number 1 or 2 in provinces.
Then i support them with dragon mastered sorcerers summoining 3 fire drakes per turn and mages.
Late game tartarians with GoH up,due to my early power i should have v high gem income.

And,btw u cant shut down my capital January Year2.
Later on i dont rely on spiders much anymore at all,but i still will have like 50+ hunters left,because they simply never ever die vs indies.
What u are mixing up is my game plan with the general game plan,advisable for standard builds.

i mean common,after all the developers even thought that 120g hunters are balanced.I even took that build for fun purposes at that time and wasnt that disappointed at all.Now you basically get a free spider every 3 u produce.Also u get nice gold income since ur upkeep stays pretty low with those low number sacred units.
we got 33% decrease in cost now,mind you,thats HUUGE!
Maybe even overpowered,seriously.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

The problem is not the price on hunters. It's lack of synergy.

Your plan sounds ok. I'd even give it a try in a few SP test games. The thing is that no matter how you turn it Machaka still remains a weak nation IMO. I think their mages should be boosted or they should get some unique (sacred --> for bless) summons.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

Mardagg, it might be a good idea to test your Machaka in MP. From the way it looks to me, it would be very apparent to any human player you rely heavily on capital only sacreds. The AI is not capable of doing the remote attacks, but you can be guaranteed humans will use things like Rain of Toads, Hurricane, Locust Swarms, Blight, Baleful Star on your capital; expect the raiders to land in your capital to wreak even more havoc (Machaka PD sucks donkey balls, so even half-witted raiders will rout the PD). Worse, your mages in the capital will be mindhunted if it is apparent you have zero astral mages there (there will be an Astral projection cast on your capital, and if it succeeds, next turn lots machakan brains will fry).

Those are not late-game strategies, they are the midgame ones; of course you can rely on luck and hope you find a site with astral shamans/amazons, but that would be quite a gamble. Besides, having somebody who can forge Crystal shield and crystal matrixes would be quite a big boon (with the chronical need for firegems Machaka has, one should not forget the possibility of Power of the Spheres and the artifical communions, which save firegems for more urgent needs).

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

My build synergizes great for early game expansion.
I believe this is what makes Machaka strong now.
U believe its the mages.
I dont agree there since u are lacking Astral and Blood.
U want to cut on the weaknesses ,I want to emphazize on the strengths.
Both are valid approaches in general.

boosting their mages will not happen,QM said that.Its not thematic and they are good enough considering they got the spider form for quite a big survivabilty in huge battles.
What i would like to see is making the assassin non cap only.
But that probably not thematic,too.
Increase the PD at least.
I believe Machaka to be pretty good now,if are able to include the 33% decrease in cost for the sacred in your strat somehow.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

It's not a poison attack for either 18 or 13 dam. It's a physical attack, with death poison if the defender takes any damage. I only ever see little green 3s and 4s, no matter if it's the spiders with riders, or just spiders. If you're worried 13 is not enough to punch thru MA armor, you can add B4. You even get a little more out of that spear you like, in that case. I'm not too excited about spears.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

Jarkko,i only need my capital for the first 12-14 turns so to speak.Once u reach the critical mass of Hunters u dont desparately need to produce them every turn anymore.

Shamans at least u should get,no?
Getting even more lucky with other sites,is at least possible.
u can always paint scenarios on how to crush certain builds.
How do you want do stop 2 hunter armies,E9N4 blessed,16 hunters each,showing up on your borders January Year 2?
Now u can find 1-2 or nations able to do that.
Maybe 1-2 more if they would known before the game that they start as a neigbour of me,using that strat.

@vfb

man.
So first u are telling me the spider is equally good offensive.Now,that u agree the rider has double Number of attack per turn and higher strength for the bite attack,meaning a LOT more offensive power since u are getting swarmed(=battle last quite some time),u just say: no,i am not excited about the spears.
How about saying: Hey,sorry, I was wrong!

You know what,we will see what the future will bring.
Probably it will need some MP Machaka wins or some lost battles vs Machaka for some of you guys until you agree.
Or it will prove ,i was wrong.
Certainly,though,no one of you guys did brought up points that let me to rethink my soon to be MP plan.

Lets move on,...how about MA Abysia now:D

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

What I want to achieve: I don't want to pay upkeep for my spider horde, that's what I want.

You said spider MR was less than average, and that's wrong, because it's exactly average.

And I do want E+S on my god for the late game. I never said S9. Obviously you are joking about that, since S9 is for low-prot jags/vestals, not for a high-HP regenerating beast.

I don't understand why you say that you only want to concentrate on the early game. You don't even need E9 in the early game, unless you are trying to get all your Black Hunters to survive to the midgame in rider form. If all you want to do is expand in the early game, take an A3W3E3F3N3D3B3S3 bless, that will do you just fine.

If you must know, I'm using a E4N4S4B4 bless.

How well does that work, versus E9N4?

Well, a few more spiders will be in spider form instead of having riders. Damn you riders, die! So you'll still have to fork out some monthly cash for their pensions. But not as much as if they all had riders.

Your god will have done some nice site-searching for you, it's not like you need him fighting. E4N4S4B4 is not all you get with a rainbow, so he can find sites with a minor path like W too. He'll be able to forge lots of nice items, summon some golems, maybe throw in a few surpises here and there. He can make all the rings you want. He can actually dispel stuff.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

Ok, admittedly SP, but here's my results with E9 plus some assorted other things (F4S4)

Independents:
As few as 3 spiders routinely beat independents and never acquired either an affliction nor lost a rider.

Typical deployment was 10+ of the machakan spear infantry (no armor, shields) front and center set to hold and attack with spiders (usually 5+) on the side set to attack rear, often leading to the spiders intercepting advancing meleers on the side (breaking up their formation, but generally resulting in at least one spider being swarmed). The good protection helped avoid injuries, but also webbing prevented numerous troops from attacking.

(Archers were used as appropriate against suitable indie types like barbs, although just 3 spiders generally did just fine against tribals or standard (militia/light/heavy infantry + archers) independents in not unreasonable numbers.)

Against AI:
AI armies were slightly more worrying, actually succeeding in occasionally killing a spider or two. Some afflictions resulted, although most of them weren't relevant. (Never Healing Wounds and Weakened are mostly irrelevant, for example. Never saw a crippled or limp black hunter, which would have been the most annoying. The worst affliction i got was diseased, and when the rider died the spider was not diseased iirc).

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

Oh, thanks.

Yeah, the Spiders get two attacks too, since the 2nd web attack does not depend on the 1st attack doing damage. So, you see a lot more webs too, in spider form. The higher attack in spider form helps too. Glad you finally agree!

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

in my recent SP Game,i did attack 20 Knights,15 longbowman and some chaff with nothing but 7 hunters+prophet and the starting archers on turn 5.

I only lost 3 riders in that battle.

I just took the hunters in front,my archers in that case did not fire archers bc ive often encountered problems there ,with the knights attacking the archers.

Generally some of your own Archers on fire close,hunters in front,is enough for 95% of all indies,losing occasionally a rider only.
Your archers never ever hit your riders(gotta pay attention to your spiders,though) and make the indies rout earlier in close combat vs your hunters.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

wow,yeah!How could i forgot that.
Now,is totally obvious that they are at the very least equally powerful as the rider.
Wow,man,i suck.you owned me,man,totally.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

[quote=vfb;725152]for the record,i said MR is still low.
What i meant by low i did make clear in my last post.
U didnt say at any point in your posts what you are using for magic paths ,u were just randomly nitpicking on my statements,even giving away just plain wrong game info here and there.Overseeing the spear and the much lower strength on the Spider form,just let me to the conclusion you have no idea what you are talking about,at that time.
the spider bite will penetrate alot more often the opponents armor on the rider form,thus triggering the death poison more often.
The fangs of the spider form dont web,JUST LOOK AT THE GAME ONE TIME.So both forms got exactly 1 chance to web.Excuse if i understand your statement there wrong,it was a little confusing.
Your build is interesting.
Sombre came up with that point much earlier though and i did agree.It helps to read the whole thread before posting.
Your build is interesting but much inferior to E9N4 for early game purposes.Just test it and then compare.I did this tests already months ago,when CBM1.6 came out.
E4N4S4x4 awake pretender means worse scales and worse early expansion than my build,using imprisoned pretender.
U solve the S problem though,which i can only solve with having luck.Some riders die,some still dont for you.Its not much upkeep u got less there.Your offensive power for fights vs humans is considerable less though with spiders only.
For midgame though,imagine you got mostly spiders, I got mostly riders.Essentially my troops can survive a lot longer simply bc of the 2 shapes.
Also having Protection 20 is a lot worse than 24.Ive encountered those 4 points of armor make a huge difference in the MA.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

Come Mardagg, I invite you to use this build in the next MP game I host (after first Sharivar ends). Let's see how it holds up against non newb human players. I'm truly interested in the results and not being sarcastic, condescending or any some such.

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

i am absolutely sure we will meet somewhere in the future;)

Currently i am doing well in both of my MP games,gotta wait until i am down to 1 game.
I will host a game then,MA standard settings,you are very much invited.
Maybe,just maybe,i will have the surprise effect again then at that time...because atm every non newb would know before the game starts what i am up for.

Actually i am very unhappy about how everyone knows my build beforehand now and especially about how the discussion unfolded.
I should never have posted in detail here:(

Re: Nations under CBM 1.6
 

looking forward to meeting you in the future ;)

And hey, everyone knows that Mictlan's optimal/popular build is dual+ bless usually s9f9 or that the giant bless nations like E9N6. That doesn't make them weak, not even remotely.